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Author Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]  (Read 178549 times)

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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #225 on: June 18, 2014, 09:19:33 am »
0

I kinda hated those last 2 episodes.

WTF no Tysha reveal????
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #226 on: June 18, 2014, 10:10:30 am »
0

The Wall plotline is the one lagging behind significantly. There's some significant Jon/Sam/Stannis stuff at the end of Book 3 that we haven't seen yet. On the other hand, Sansa and Bran are both pretty much beyond what even Book 5 covers.

That's not quite true; Sansa and Bran are both about halfway through book 4/5. (That said, they each only have like three chapters in book 4/5, so that doesn't leave very much.)

Good call on the Wall, Robz. Duh.

Bran has a little bit more of 5 to go, but Sansa is in Book 6 in my opinion. There's no way we're going to see Harry the Heir, Lords Declarant, etc. with that final scene we had where she reveals herself and protects Littlefinger. It's my impression that scene is their adaptation/change to get to the same place things will be at the end of the Heir/Declarant subplot (as in, I would not be surprised if Book 6 started with her publicly revealing herself in order to etc. etc. etc.)
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #227 on: June 18, 2014, 12:40:51 pm »
0

This reddit conversation just made me laugh out loud for some reason, even though it's probably not even meant to be funny:
Quote
and why didn't Brienne show Arya the direwolf bread that Hot Pie made?
--I think they ate it. It'd be pretty moldy by then.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/28fd1q/spoilers_all_show_watchers_are_not_stupid/ciajch6
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 12:42:24 pm by Watno »
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jonts26

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #228 on: June 18, 2014, 01:57:59 pm »
+3

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/28fd1q/spoilers_all_show_watchers_are_not_stupid

I had to unsub from /r/asoiaf because of posts and comment threads like that one. It's become nothing but bitching about every change. The show is an adaptation of an incredibly long and detailed book series. A lot of stuff is going to be cut. A lot of minor stuff, and a handful of more major things as well. TV is a different medium than print. It has its own strengths and limitations. Things are going to be changed, added, condensed, whatever. The strength of an adaptation is not in how closely it follows the source material, but how well it stands on it's own, apart from the source. There's nothing worse than an adaptation which only makes sense when you've read the books. When critiquing the show, you do so in the confines of the show canon, not the book canon. The show isn't perfect and there are plenty of issues you can discuss, but e.g. having 200 posts about changing 'only cat' to 'your sister' is really quite obnoxious. If people are just looking for a scene by scene, line by line retelling of the books, well just reread the books.

And I don't even want to get started on the whole LSH thing. I do think she serves a purpose in the books. But her role so far hasn't exactly been huge. If the show cut her all together, there would be a small hole in the plot that you could fill in any number of ways quite easily.
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #229 on: June 18, 2014, 03:08:38 pm »
0

Some VERY SPOILERY commentary on the lack of Stoneheart:

These are basically my feelings exactly:

"I am sure I could spin either of those reasons off into a long cultural studies-ish essay about the female body, Catelyn, women antiheroes, and the need for a rich tapestry of femininity on television. But instead I will be honest and say: I just really, really, want to watch a show which has Lady Stoneheart in it. As a fan, and someone who just wants to enjoy something."

http://morningafter.gawker.com/why-no-lady-stoneheart-game-of-thrones-1592747748?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #230 on: June 18, 2014, 03:23:29 pm »
0

Some VERY SPOILERY commentary on the lack of Stoneheart:

These are basically my feelings exactly:

"I am sure I could spin either of those reasons off into a long cultural studies-ish essay about the female body, Catelyn, women antiheroes, and the need for a rich tapestry of femininity on television. But instead I will be honest and say: I just really, really, want to watch a show which has Lady Stoneheart in it. As a fan, and someone who just wants to enjoy something."

http://morningafter.gawker.com/why-no-lady-stoneheart-game-of-thrones-1592747748?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow


Plus, you know, live Catelyn sucked so much.. easily one of my least favorite literary characters ever.  But dead Catelyn, man, that chick is awesome.  Throughout all of Seasons 1 and 2 I was just waiting for her to die so she could come back.
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #231 on: June 18, 2014, 03:32:24 pm »
0

...

I think you have look at it in a more differentiated way. For example I don't care much about the words Littlefinger uses, LSH not appearing (yet) orthe Missandei-GreyWorm-relationship people seem to be getting worked up about. On the other hand, I'm quite unhappy with the reveal that Tysha wasn't actually a whore and the lack of any reason for part of the storyline to make sense.
In either case, I think "The book canon handles this plotline differently than the show canon and I like the way the book does it better" is perfectly valid criticism of the show.
Even if it wasn't possible for the show to handle stuff "better" (which I don't believe is the case for most things), disliking the show for not doing so is perfectly reasonable, as is being unhappy that the show caters to a potentially larger audience that doesn't include you instead of a small one that your part of.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #232 on: June 18, 2014, 03:43:16 pm »
0

The Tysha thing is a very valid disagreement, I believe, because you don't feel for Tyrion as much without that.  He still has a reason to go to the tower of the hand in the show, but it's not as strong.  And he's not as emotionally crushed.  Despite everything that happened, he was still very protective of his family before Jaime confessed to him.  As much as he always maintained hatred, the "family is more important than anything" dogma of Tywin was deeply ingrained.  The truth about Tysha was the ultimate betrayal, and this particular drove him to seek Tywin out.  Shae was just icing---he already knew she had betrayed him.

Plus it paves a way for a sort of self-destructive and despairing attitude for the next parts of his story.

So this is a case where it's not just that the show was different, but that it doesn't stand on its own as well.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #233 on: June 18, 2014, 04:14:33 pm »
0

Some VERY SPOILERY commentary on the lack of Stoneheart:

These are basically my feelings exactly:

"I am sure I could spin either of those reasons off into a long cultural studies-ish essay about the female body, Catelyn, women antiheroes, and the need for a rich tapestry of femininity on television. But instead I will be honest and say: I just really, really, want to watch a show which has Lady Stoneheart in it. As a fan, and someone who just wants to enjoy something."

http://morningafter.gawker.com/why-no-lady-stoneheart-game-of-thrones-1592747748?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow


Plus, you know, live Catelyn sucked so much.. easily one of my least favorite literary characters ever.  But dead Catelyn, man, that chick is awesome.  Throughout all of Seasons 1 and 2 I was just waiting for her to die so she could come back.

I just do not get this. Catelyn was one of my favorite characters. LS is...well, I enjoy disliking her, so I'm glad she's in the story, but she's not my favorite by any means.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #234 on: June 18, 2014, 04:21:56 pm »
0

I just really didn't like Catelyn.  I mean yes it was good she was in the story, but I disliked her.  She caused all kinds of problems and went on and on about her children... and she was mean to Jon, too.  Whereas just the notion of LS existing is cool. 
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #235 on: June 18, 2014, 04:26:20 pm »
+2

People hate Catelyn and I just don't get it. She's great in all incarnations, and Michelle Fairley did some of the best work on the show of all.
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jonts26

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #236 on: June 18, 2014, 04:31:48 pm »
+1

...

I think you have look at it in a more differentiated way. For example I don't care much about the words Littlefinger uses, LSH not appearing (yet) orthe Missandei-GreyWorm-relationship people seem to be getting worked up about. On the other hand, I'm quite unhappy with the reveal that Tysha wasn't actually a whore and the lack of any reason for part of the storyline to make sense.

I don't understand how that part of the storyline doesn't make sense without Tysha. Tywin has been crapping all over tyrion his entire life. Tyrion hates tywin. There was a big speech about it and everything.

Quote
In either case, I think "The book canon handles this plotline differently than the show canon and I like the way the book does it better" is perfectly valid criticism of the show.
Even if it wasn't possible for the show to handle stuff "better" (which I don't believe is the case for most things), disliking the show for not doing so is perfectly reasonable, as is being unhappy that the show caters to a potentially larger audience that doesn't include you instead of a small one that your part of.

I'm not saying you can't make comparisons from book to show. Of course you can, and should. You can certainly say 'I think the show would be better if X', where X is from the book. X can be anything really. For instance, I think the portrayal of stannis in the show is weaker than that in the books. We could discuss details if you want. But there's a difference between that and most of what I've seen posted. People are raging about these minor points. LSH's role in the story so far is minor. Tysha is minor. The sub has become nothing but asoiaf book apologists that can't see the story told in any way which disagrees with their preconceived notions of how the plot should work.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #237 on: June 18, 2014, 04:36:41 pm »
0

People hate Catelyn and I just don't get it. She's great in all incarnations, and Michelle Fairley did some of the best work on the show of all.

Well, I think Michelle Fairley was perfect, as she made me feel the same way about the character as I did in the books, maybe even to a greater extent.
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jonts26

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #238 on: June 18, 2014, 04:39:26 pm »
+2

The Tysha thing is a very valid disagreement, I believe, because you don't feel for Tyrion as much without that.  He still has a reason to go to the tower of the hand in the show, but it's not as strong.  And he's not as emotionally crushed.  Despite everything that happened, he was still very protective of his family before Jaime confessed to him.  As much as he always maintained hatred, the "family is more important than anything" dogma of Tywin was deeply ingrained.  The truth about Tysha was the ultimate betrayal, and this particular drove him to seek Tywin out.  Shae was just icing---he already knew she had betrayed him.

Plus it paves a way for a sort of self-destructive and despairing attitude for the next parts of his story.

So this is a case where it's not just that the show was different, but that it doesn't stand on its own as well.

If you can't feel for tyrion without the tysha backstory, then I don't know what to tell you. We had beautifully acted scenes of him on trial, of him talking to oberyn, etc. The rest of what you said is just projecing your book based notions on the show. Tyrion still values family above all else? The guy who has threatened his sister and threatened and assaulted his nephew? Even if that was true, why couldnt he have 'snapped' while in prison? After oberyn dies and his father sentences him to death? After the kangaroo court of a trial? See these are the kinds of justifications you would try to think of if it was presented this way in the book, but because it disagrees with how the book does it, you just say it's worse and have to talk about how much worse it is. I think the tysha backstory is heartbreaking and fantastic and all that. But it's just a drop in the puddle of asoiaf. Maybe the show would have been better with it in. Maybe not. They'd have to build up the tysha backstory. So that means they'd have to cut other scenes. There's only so much they can fit in there.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #239 on: June 18, 2014, 04:52:52 pm »
+1

So the point is is that, in the show, once he's sprung from prison, he's elated that he's escaping.  He had given up and now he has hope again.  He even has a heartfelt goodbye with Jaime.  The sudden change to anger was a little unnatural.  It's like he had to stop and remember, oh hey, I should take care of some business before I leave.  The Tysha story explains why he's feeling angry at that moment.  (Yes, he has plenty reason to feel angry at any time in his life, but in the show nothing provoked it right then.)  After his talk with Jaime in the books, he's angry, he's hurt; he wanted vindication and he doesn't care about anything else.

The part about Tyrion valuing family is maybe only from book Tyrion.  It's hard to keep the two separate in memory. 

In general I agree with you that "hey this adaptation did this differently and therefore it must be worse" is poor logic.  It's hard to judge in this situation because I can't see the show from a position of not having read the books.  However, I do think here that his motivation was not as compelling. 
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #240 on: June 18, 2014, 04:58:12 pm »
0

I think Tyrion's motivations still make sense plenty without Tysha, it was just a bit unfortunate to lose his Tysha motivation, going forward. I liked him speculating about where/whether he might find her. This was not a change that really upset me, however.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #241 on: June 18, 2014, 05:02:05 pm »
+1

Am I forgetting how big a character LSH was? She wasn't really on my radar much at all. She appeared only a couple of times, right? Why is there so much love for her? I just don't get why this is a big deal to so many people.

I care much less about the exclusion of Tysha than I do about the Jaime/Tyrion parting being completely changed. I don't know where it's leading, or if they'll ever meet again, but it bugged me that this was changed. Tysha I couldn't really care about, Shae serves the same purpose.
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #242 on: June 18, 2014, 05:19:03 pm »
0

It doesn't really make sense for Tyrion to get mad when Tywin calls Shae a whore.
And they actually DID build up the Tysha storyline.

Also, with Tyrion pretty much permanently thiking about Tysha in book 5, this surely isn't minor.

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Axxle

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #243 on: June 18, 2014, 05:20:36 pm »
0

I think Tyrion's motivations still make sense plenty without Tysha, it was just a bit unfortunate to lose his Tysha motivation, going forward. I liked him speculating about where/whether he might find her. This was not a change that really upset me, however.
Without the Tysha modivation, Tyrion loses half his lines!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #244 on: June 18, 2014, 06:06:43 pm »
+2

Also, with Tyrion pretty much permanently thinking about Tysha in book 5, this surely isn't minor.

It seems difficult to really display thoughts on the screen. 

Also would explain this:
They also cut Tysha/"She fucked Lancel, and Cattleblack and probably the Moon Boy too",

How can they really display him thinking about that throughout the following seasons?

You can add extra dialogue about stuff (they could have Jaime talking his thoughts to Ser Ilyn as Jaime practices with him), or do something.  But my point is, how do you make that into the TV show?  It is simple to display a characters thoughts in a book, but to do it on screen is another matter entirely.
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #245 on: June 18, 2014, 06:54:14 pm »
0

I think going around asking people "Where do whores go?" is pretty indicative of Tyrions thoughts.

Edit: Anyway, even if there was no other way to handle this, that doesn't mean I have to like it.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 07:03:27 pm by Watno »
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #246 on: June 18, 2014, 08:36:18 pm »
0

Am I forgetting how big a character LSH was? She wasn't really on my radar much at all. She appeared only a couple of times, right? Why is there so much love for her? I just don't get why this is a big deal to so many people.

It's just COOL. We really don't know how important she is at this point, though. So you're right about that.
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #247 on: June 22, 2014, 11:22:12 pm »
0

Man that secret episode only for HBO GO subscribers was awesome! Totally made my day.


Just kidding, but seriously I had a dream about that last night, it was a really good episode that I dreamt up.

Also I dreamt that the US defeated Portugal and Germany at the same time...
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #248 on: June 23, 2014, 09:52:43 am »
0

I feel like this week's Game of Thrones really jumped the shark...
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KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #249 on: June 23, 2014, 10:30:44 am »
0

Am I forgetting how big a character LSH was? She wasn't really on my radar much at all. She appeared only a couple of times, right? Why is there so much love for her? I just don't get why this is a big deal to so many people.

It's just COOL. We really don't know how important she is at this point, though. So you're right about that.

I think she will be big. My guess is that the sword Stannis claims to be Lightbringer (that's the name of it right?) is actually the flaming sword that red priest with Beric Dondarion uses. So she will at least play a medium sized role in later books/episodes with some conflict to aquire that sword for Daernys (how ever her nameis spelled).
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