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Author Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]  (Read 83095 times)

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Calamitas

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #725 on: August 25, 2017, 08:44:30 am »
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Revive :-D
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #726 on: August 25, 2017, 12:15:31 pm »
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Edit: Wrong thread~
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #727 on: April 29, 2019, 10:40:01 am »
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Seems like necroing this thread is reasonable, although the TV series has diverged from the books, and there has been a lot of TV discussion here.

So I seem to the only person who was actually underwhelmed by the Battle of Winterfell. There were some really good bits in there, and I enjoyed those bits, but the parts in between bored me. I think part of the issue was how it was filmed. A lot of the scenes were dark, up-close, ambiguous, and featured many cuts. Perhaps it was designed to show just how chaotic war can be. A lot of these shots were done with the Battle of the Bastards, but maybe that was less annoying because it wasn't dark.

As far as establishing atmosphere, the darkness and weather did a great job, but it wasn't great for me.

That being said, I enjoyed the highlights.

The Dothraki with flaming swords were a great-looking scene, though it bothered me greatly that their great tactic was to throw the horsemen into a battle with no support so they could be killed and come back as zombies. Actually, I'm not sure they were raised as zombies, but they might as well have been. The scene was beautifully shot, but I feel it was marred by the logistical problem of what they did.

Lady Mormont kicked ass. I loved her killing the giant. No complaints there. It's a pity she had to die, but honestly she had the best death.

I was vindicated when my theory that hiding in the crypt was a really bad idea when facing a foe that could raise the dead. Honestly, I think that scene could've been improved upon by everyone being massacred because that would be a really dark moment where the people who were in the "safest" part of the castle were wiped out. This scene was also foreshadowed by Arya giving Sansa Chekov's knife, though it was never used. That bugs me because why would Arya give Sansa a weapon only to not have it be relevant? Was it just jacking with our meta-knowledge? When they focused on Sansa and Tyrion, I was thinking that perhaps she would sacrifice herself by drawing out the zombies, letting everyone else escape the crypt. I guess I shouldn't call this a highlight since it was my biggest disappointment with this episode, but I can't deny that it was shot well.

And of course, Arya murdering the Night King. This scene was great. I wasn't fond of Theon throwing away his life with such a clumsy attack. They could've at least made his death cooler. But there was some good tension as Arya leapt to save the day, was thwarted in her attack, and then pulled a reversal to provide a satisfying end to the Night King.


The highs were good enough to make this overall an enjoyable episode, but it ranks lowest of the battle scenes for me.
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werothegreat

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #728 on: May 19, 2019, 11:05:33 pm »
0

Sooooo who saw the finale?
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #729 on: May 20, 2019, 12:14:23 pm »
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I watched it. I'm okay with it. It wasn't anything spectacular. It pretty much set out to wrap up the story, and it did just that. I know some people weren't happy with it, but I didn't see anything too offensive.

Some minor gripes I have:

How did anyone know that Jon killed her? Obviously he told people. Should've let Arya do it with her ninja magic. She knows how to keep her mouth shut. Or maybe he ran away, and people concluded by his absence that he was the culprit. Jon sucks at deception. Bran probably knew, but I doubt he would've narced on Jon. If he was interested in doing that, he would've just located him when Grey Worm was hunting him down.

Making Bronn the Master of Coin? You know, in case the audience decided that Tyrion would have given up making bad decisions.

Man, so slow. But that is kind of typical for season enders. It's just that previous seasons had some story to look forward to, and we don't have that here.

Arya deciding to be Columbus was a little strange. Did she feel she experienced all that could be done in Westeros and decided to go find sea monsters to the west? I must admit I didn't see this coming.

Time continued to be wibbly-wobbly in terms of how long it takes to travel. At least they're consistent in inconsistency.


Some bits I liked:

Tyrion reminding us that Dany's always been pretty cruel. We just went along with it because nobody cared about the victims. It was when she turned that cruelty to others that we realized what she is.

Dany regaling Jon with tales of how she envisioned the Iron Throne.

Tyrion's newfound humility.

Sansa making herself Queen of the North. 6 > 7

Ghost.



I had some ideas of how the show could've gone, but I'm fine with the decisions they made.
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pingpongsam

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #730 on: May 20, 2019, 02:36:08 pm »
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In the penultimate episode, when Jaime meets Cersei before they die together; I was convinced Arya had finished Euron's work, stolen Jaime's face, and was going to kill her. I'm still certain this is a better plot line.
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #731 on: May 20, 2019, 04:21:12 pm »
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Are we doing spoilers? I figured anyone checking out this thread has already seen it. I may be accustomed to the RPG.net discussion where that's assumed.

A lot of people wanted that scene to go differently. So many possible candidates. While I probably would have cheered at any of them, I'm kind of okay with it having a pathetic end.

I hadn't considered Jamie, but that may be because I already blew my prediction by thinking Qyburn was actually Arya with the stabby-stab. Once that turned out to not be the case, it hadn't even occurred to me to go with your suspicion.

Though how awesome of storytelling would it have been to set up a red herring for my suspicion only to have your suspicion take place?

Ah well, I can think of a dozen ways each character could've done something. I can't be mad just because my pet prediction didn't happen.

The memes are getting pretty funny, especially the angry chair.

I have to say that Facebook GoT fans are awful. They're spoiling things left and right, while I've seen very few Avengers: Endgame spoilers. I suppose it's easier for a television show, since aspiring meme creators can easily capture scenes to caption. That's not so easy with Endgame.
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silverspawn

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #732 on: May 20, 2019, 06:38:49 pm »
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This ending is absoultely amazing.  I actually like it more than all the endings I had considered beforehand. There were things wrong with this season, but the ending was not one of them.

Also, I made one prediction this season after ep4, which was that Varis would die in ep5, and I totally nailed it. Though admittedly I expected Danny to be smart enough to figure it out herself rather than having Tyrion tell her.
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AJD

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #733 on: May 20, 2019, 08:51:31 pm »
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Well, that episode sure was... a thing that happened.

How did anyone know that Jon killed her? Obviously he told people. Should've let Arya do it with her ninja magic. She knows how to keep her mouth shut. Or maybe he ran away, and people concluded by his absence that he was the culprit. Jon sucks at deception. Bran probably knew, but I doubt he would've narced on Jon. If he was interested in doing that, he would've just located him when Grey Worm was hunting him down.

I mean, I think this is perfectly in character for Jon: even if it was the right thing to do, assassinating the queen is a crime, and he was willing to face the consequences. What bugs me here though is, why didn't Grey Worm just execute Jon (and Tyrion) immediately, rather than holding them in prison for however many weeks it took for a Great Council to be called? Why should Grey Worm recognize a Great Council's authority to tell him what to do with prisoners who had betrayed the queen?

Quote
Tyrion reminding us that Dany's always been pretty cruel. We just went along with it because nobody cared about the victims. It was when she turned that cruelty to others that we realized what she is.

I don't really buy this, though? It's a far cry from executing slavers—all of whom, as Tyrion notes, were "evil men"—to burninating the civilians of King's Landing. Dany has shown no tendency before of being cruel toward the innocent.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #734 on: May 20, 2019, 09:27:22 pm »
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Jon would certainly admit to what he did.

Holding Jon and Tyrion prisoner gives the Unsullied the possibility to get justice without initiating a war. Even if they're willing to go to war, it isn't the best option.
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silverspawn

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #735 on: May 20, 2019, 10:39:43 pm »
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I don't really buy this, though? It's a far cry from executing slavers—all of whom, as Tyrion notes, were "evil men"—to burninating the civilians of King's Landing. Dany has shown no tendency before of being cruel toward the innocent.

Yeah, I'm still not sure how I feel about that. It feels a bit forced, but the fact that she did it also made the show a lot more interesting.

She has killed innocents before, for example when she crucified all of the masters because -some- of them were cruel to slaves. But she's also learned lessons about the value of forgiveness before.
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AJD

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #736 on: May 21, 2019, 12:07:42 am »
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I don't really buy this, though? It's a far cry from executing slavers—all of whom, as Tyrion notes, were "evil men"—to burninating the civilians of King's Landing. Dany has shown no tendency before of being cruel toward the innocent.

Yeah, I'm still not sure how I feel about that. It feels a bit forced, but the fact that she did it also made the show a lot more interesting.

She has killed innocents before, for example when she crucified all of the masters because -some- of them were cruel to slaves. But she's also learned lessons about the value of forgiveness before.

Meh, all of them owned slaves; that in itself is a wrong fairly punishable by death.
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #737 on: May 21, 2019, 03:54:10 am »
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I mean, George Washington flogged his slaves. You have to put things into perspective.
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silverspawn

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #738 on: May 21, 2019, 06:37:13 am »
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I don't really buy this, though? It's a far cry from executing slavers—all of whom, as Tyrion notes, were "evil men"—to burninating the civilians of King's Landing. Dany has shown no tendency before of being cruel toward the innocent.

Yeah, I'm still not sure how I feel about that. It feels a bit forced, but the fact that she did it also made the show a lot more interesting.

She has killed innocents before, for example when she crucified all of the masters because -some- of them were cruel to slaves. But she's also learned lessons about the value of forgiveness before.

Meh, all of them owned slaves; that in itself is a wrong fairly punishable by death.

I think if it's totally normal to own slaves then it's not reasonable to think that everyone who owns slaves deserves to die? Especially not if someone uses their power to speak out against the crucifying of slaves.

She also sent the rich charming black guy who betrayed her in Quarth to die of thirst in a locked room, rather than just killing him. That wasn't done to an innocent, but it was quite unnecessary torture.
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #739 on: May 21, 2019, 09:38:23 am »
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It's not that she executed evil people that's the problem It's that she did it so heinously. That should've been a red flag for us. It certainly should've been a red flag when she chose to burn the Tarleys alive rather than simply behead them. Even hanging is a preferable method of dying (if done correctly, that is).

Compare Ned's approach to capital punishment to Dany's approach. He took it as his duty that those who break the law should be punished, and he owned up to the awfulness of it. Her approach was vicious. Hers was less about justice and more about vengeance. We were able to excuse the slavers' deaths because they probably inflicted pain on others too. But the Tarleys were given a terrible sentence simply for refusing to bend the knee. They were prisoners of war, and they died a torturous death. The Lannisters in the streets of King's Landing received better deaths at the hands of Grey Worm.

I find it interesting (and horrifying) that I was perfectly willing to go along with her war crimes simply because she's a "good guy." Think about how this compares to real life. How many people have supported the atrocities committed by a world leader because they want him/her to be good? That makes viewing Dany's war crimes really uncomfortable because many of were rooting for a tyrant; we just hadn't really seen it.

The Tarleys should've been the red flag for me, but it wasn't. I did come to come my senses when she chose to give Varys a similarly terrible execution. After she had done that, I was not surprised that she would wreak her cruelty on everyone else.

And yeah, it was within Jon's character. I still face-palmed, but it was mostly because of his action and not because I thought it was a bad writer decision.
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silverspawn

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #740 on: May 21, 2019, 12:45:30 pm »
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Even hanging is a preferable method of dying (if done correctly, that is).

I've been thinking about this when Varys was burnt. Is it actually true if the burning is done by dragon fire that's hot enough to melt steel in a couple of seconds? You may die so quickly that it's relatively less painful than hanging. I don't think it's the same as what Melisandre did.
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AJD

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #741 on: May 21, 2019, 02:27:46 pm »
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(Also, Randyll Tarly is a scumbag who got what was coming to him. I was surprised Sam was so upset by it honestly. I guess Dickon deserved better though.)
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faust

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #742 on: May 21, 2019, 04:33:57 pm »
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It's not that she executed evil people that's the problem It's that she did it so heinously. That should've been a red flag for us. It certainly should've been a red flag when she chose to burn the Tarleys alive rather than simply behead them. Even hanging is a preferable method of dying (if done correctly, that is).
There was a Last Week Tonight episode recently talking about how it is an illusion to think that there is something like a "clean" method of killing someone. Any method of killing has its flaws, you just shouldn't do it.
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faust

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #743 on: May 21, 2019, 04:37:53 pm »
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The fact is, everyone in this show has been cruel, and for some reason we are meant to believe that Daenerys's cruelty marked a descent into madness. There just wasn't enough to make her change of heart believable. Also I'm still salty about the way the White Walkers were handled.
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silverspawn

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #744 on: May 21, 2019, 05:48:02 pm »
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I do think that the decision of the writers was ultimately motivated by wanting to defy expectations and not by a judgment of what would be the most plausible course of Action of this character. But it doesn't necessarily follow that it's a bad thing.

When I said ending, I somewhat arbitrarily was just talking about ep6, given the fact that the Danny shift already happened.
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Galzria

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #745 on: May 21, 2019, 06:29:34 pm »
+2

The fact is, everyone in this show has been cruel, and for some reason we are meant to believe that Daenerys's cruelty marked a descent into madness. There just wasn't enough to make her change of heart believable. Also I'm still salty about the way the White Walkers were handled.

The conclusion of the story of the White Walkers was a travesty. “The greatest threat this world has ever known”, who’s motives still aren’t known (exactly), and whose entire existence served exactly no purpose whatsoever... it was truly a let down.

I mean, really, the show needed the entirety of a season to be dedicated to that story arc, but whatever.

Honestly, I was hoping that they lost the battle at Winterfell and would be forced to fall back to the Iron Islands, which would’ve given more purpose to Yara’s storyline. And it would’ve given final closure to Theon as well. It would’ve allowed the show breathing room, and given more time to delve into the White Walker’s back story.
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TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
SCUM Losses: ZM4

Total Wins: 3
Total Losses: 7

Normal Games:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Traitor)

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 10

Other:
TOWN Wins: DM1, BM4, BM4, BM5, BM8, BM13, DoM1, OZ2, RM45
TOWN Losses: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM6, BM11, RM3, RM4
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Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 9

Galzria

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #746 on: May 22, 2019, 10:52:54 pm »
+2

You know, it’s funny - I haven’t fully tried to put my feelings on the conclusion into writing until I wrote this text to my mother earlier today. Thought I would share:

I’m doing something that I probably shouldn’t - I’m about halfway through a reread of Book 1 of GoT. I’m not sure if somehow I believe that, show ended, Martin will somehow feel a release of pressure and finally be capable of finishing his story, or if I’m just hopefully seeking a more satisfying conclusion. Maybe I’m just suffering GoT withdrawals knowing there’s nothing more to come.

I wasn’t hugely disappointed with the finale, in that I’m not at all surprised that they happy ended most still living characters - and further, I think the overall feel of the ending is actually what Martin intended/intends. Certainly I think Bran as King and Dany Dead is exactly what was planned from the beginning. My dissatisfaction isn’t the ending itself, it’s that the storylines weren’t borne out to justify such a conclusion. Everything that happened was plausible enough, if given time and space and story to develop. I believe the show could’ve sold the exact (or near enough) sane ending to great acclaim if built out over seasons 7-11 instead of slam packed into 7 & 8.

As a reader or observer, you need to feel invested, and you want to feel rewarded. HBO spent 6 seasons building off the written material to invest it’s viewers in the show. Even the deviances from the book were  accepted, as the show still took the time it needed to be compelling and engaging. The story, if not all the details, was there. And as a viewer, you cared. Over the past 2 seasons, HBO simply had a story to tell. They didn’t know how to build upon what Martin had provided. They didn’t know how to build the characters or the story, and thus the viewer’s reward - the conclusion - was not earned by anyone involved - Not unjustified mind you. The ending was perfectly acceptable. Just not earned.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Blitz:
TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
SCUM Losses: ZM4

Total Wins: 3
Total Losses: 7

Normal Games:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Traitor)

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 10

Other:
TOWN Wins: DM1, BM4, BM4, BM5, BM8, BM13, DoM1, OZ2, RM45
TOWN Losses: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM6, BM11, RM3, RM4
SCUM Wins: DM3, BM7, RM1, RM2
SCUM Losses: BM9, OZ1

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 9

Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #747 on: May 23, 2019, 12:12:44 am »
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I pretty much agree. The acceleration of story lines compromised immersion and investment.

I find it kind of ironic, because I remember seeing a lot of criticism in the middle of the series about slow "filler" episodes where nothing happens. I guess you can always find someone to complain about any given thing.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #748 on: May 23, 2019, 04:09:45 am »
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I don't think any GoT episode is filler.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #749 on: May 31, 2019, 02:32:54 pm »
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I've said before that I liked the ending, but here are some things I didn't like

- All the dialogue in episodes 1 and 2 is trying really hard to be clever. people can't just talk normally, it always has to be something witty, and it feels really unnatural. But this wasn't the case anymore after the first two episodes.
– I don't mind the Great War being handled in one episode as much, but the choices of deaths there felt kind of cheap. Even though a lot of characters die, it's all the ones which you expect to die and which don't really hurt, pretty much without exception. Greyjoy died while fully redeeming himself, Jorah died in the most heroic way possible after having redeemed himself, Melisandre died after having played her part fighting the undead (and on purpose), the head of the watch, no-one cares about him, the guy who died before, that was expected... well I probably forgot someone. None of them really hurt. Tyrion should have died there. Or John Snow. Or both dragons. Or all of them. Imagine if John and Tyrion and both dragons had died! The show is supposed to do things that are out of the box.
– Arya should've gotten more credit
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