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Author Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]  (Read 54762 times)

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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2014, 11:57:29 am »
+1

Man, as far as who I'd like to see end up on the throne, I don't know. None of the prospective kings or queens are that appealing to me, I'd say my favorite characters are Varys and Jaime, although now that Tywin is gone ge is the only Lannister I root for), so maybe I should root for this Aegon fellow - fake or not.

So Aegon is most assuredly fake, but he'd still probably be the best ruler for the kingdom.  He was basically raised for this job. Given that, he's all but guaranteed to die~

My favorite character is Arya.  I like Tyrion and Jaime too.
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werothegreat

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2014, 03:09:53 pm »
0

I'm still waiting for the Eyrie to be impregnated.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2014, 08:58:30 pm »
+1

This might also belong in the random thread.  But it definitely belonged here.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/anthropocene/cgi-bin/wordpress/game-of-thrones-geology/
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2014, 09:08:00 pm »
+1

http://quartermaester.info/

This made grasping the geography much easier for me. It's also incredibly cool.

edit: I guess it would be internet-polite to also tell you guys what it is. It's an interactive map, showing every character's journey through chapters/episodes. Tons of fun!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 09:33:49 pm by Eevee »
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2014, 12:23:59 pm »
0

This might also belong in the random thread.  But it definitely belonged here.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/anthropocene/cgi-bin/wordpress/game-of-thrones-geology/

I always imagine Bravos (and the continent on which it resides) to be much further north than that, even though I know it isn't.  I think because of the way the maps are presented in the books.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 12:39:10 pm by Witherweaver »
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2014, 12:36:17 pm »
+1

Cool sporcle where you need to identify characters by the path they take in the books: http://www.sporcle.com/games/Michiel/asoiaf-characters-by-journey-slideshow
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greatexpectations

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2014, 12:51:42 pm »
+1

"Braavos is north of Kingís Landing, fool. Canít you read a bloody map?"
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2014, 03:35:25 pm »
0

Is there a reason to believe Joffrey's poison was really in Sansa's hair?
I don't really see what the point of bringing it in that way would be, and pretty much the only evidence is that Littlefinger says so.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2014, 03:38:32 pm »
0

Is there a reason to believe Joffrey's poison was really in Sansa's hair?
I don't really see what the point of bringing it in that way would be, and pretty much the only evidence is that Littlefinger says so.


It's in the necklace Dontos gives her, on the show. If you watch closely, you can see Olenna take it.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2014, 03:44:19 pm »
0

Is there a reason to believe Joffrey's poison was really in Sansa's hair?
I don't really see what the point of bringing it in that way would be, and pretty much the only evidence is that Littlefinger says so.


It was pretty clear I think.. she was given this necklace kind of out of the blue and suspiciously close to the wedding by someone obviously involved with Littlefinger.  During the feast, a specific point was made about Olenna talking with Sansa shortly before Joffery died.  There may even be something about her straightening the necklace/hair oranament/whatever.  I don't have the books on me right now. 

I'm assuming you're talking about in the books.  In the show, it's made to be even more obvious, as you can see one of the gems in Sansa's necklace missing and you can see when Olenna palms it

But yeah, I do wonder why it couldn't just be in someone's pocket or pouch.  Maybe they didn't want to carry it on them on the off chance they were somehow searched or something.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2014, 03:49:56 pm »
0

Well, I guess using Sansa let's them implicate her later if she doesn't run.  And if she does run, she looks guilty anyway.

And it was a hair net in the books.  I don't have the quote, but Olenna certainly adjusts it when talking to Sansa, shortly before Joffrey dies.
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2014, 04:04:47 pm »
0

I guess if the Tyrells get searched, Sansa gets searched for sure. Developing a complex plot just for the trivial task of getting poison to a wedding seems doesn't really make sense, especially if that plan is much more likely to fail than just putting it in the Queen of Thorn's pocket (her having a new hairnet could cause suspicion, someone could notice she has poison gems in her hair, the QoT "stealing" a gem could easily be noticed...)
Littlefinger and all his lackeys and LF makes sure she thinks the QoT took a gem from her hairnet. He seems to want her to feel guilty. But if that's the point of it, there's no reason it needs to actually be true.
That only leaves the question what the QoT gets from having Sansa to feel guilty, or why she would agree to that part of LF's plan otherwise
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2014, 04:08:43 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure Littlefinger doesn't want to implicate Sansa. He has a creepy desire for her and he wants her in order to get power over the North
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2014, 04:18:50 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure Littlefinger doesn't want to implicate Sansa. He has a creepy desire for her and he wants her in order to get power over the North

Huh?  He knows her disappearing makes her look 100% guilty, and he orchestrated her escape.

But it's possible the Tyrrels had more influence over the plan than Littlefinger implies.  They could have chosen the hairnet method in case they needed to scapegoat Sansa.  Or Littlefinger could have agreed to or introduced the idea of the hairnet in order to placate the Tyrrels who thought Sansa would be implicated, while planning to take Sansa away without informing them.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 04:20:09 pm by Witherweaver »
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2014, 04:35:22 pm »
0

What I meant to say was that LF doesn't want to implicate Sansa while she might potentially be captured. Once she escapes it doesn't matter, but I don't see him risk her being executed with the big plans he has for her. The point at which QoT allegedly takes the poison from Sansa's hairnet is long before the actual poisoning happens, and it's out in the yard, so a potential bag control would happen after that point. QoT would have enough time to get the poison from a less valuable courier if she needed one (like Dontos).
The Tyrells wanting to scapegoat Sansa doesn't make sense either, since "I took the poison from her hairnet, so it wasn't me" isn't a good excuse.
Also Dontos seems to be under LF's control, so I think LF orchestrated the plan.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2014, 04:40:46 pm »
0

What I meant to say was that LF doesn't want to implicate Sansa while she might potentially be captured. Once she escapes it doesn't matter, but I don't see him risk her being executed with the big plans he has for her. The point at which QoT allegedly takes the poison from Sansa's hairnet is long before the actual poisoning happens, and it's out in the yard, so a potential bag control would happen after that point. QoT would have enough time to get the poison from a less valuable courier if she needed one (like Dontos).
The Tyrells wanting to scapegoat Sansa doesn't make sense either, since "I took the poison from her hairnet, so it wasn't me" isn't a good excuse.
Also Dontos seems to be under LF's control, so I think LF orchestrated the plan.


Well, imagine the Tyrells didn't know that Sansa was going to escape.  Then at some point they can either accuse Sansa or get someone to poke around and look at her hairnet.  It's missing a gem, and testing would show that the gems are indeed crystallized poison.  Therefore, Sansa would look guilty, and her claiming that Olenna took it from her hairnet would not hold any weight.  Easy to deny by Olenna, impossible to prove by Sansa. Especially coming from Sansa who has every reason to hate Joffery, and who comes from a family that everyone hates.
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2014, 04:41:52 pm »
0

This last string of spoilers is about the end of the third book and one PoV of the fifth book, if anyone is wondering.

Anyway, it struck me as needlessly contrived when I read that. There must certainly be easier ways to smuggle poison into the wedding banquet, not to mention that having Olenna poison the wine seems terribly risky, when she is in the top three most suspicious people in Cersei's feverish mind. Littlefinger could indeed be lying, he's patologically incapable of telling the truth, and this version of the events puts Sansa in a difficult situation, with LF as the only person she can trust. But then, if what he tells is a lie, what's the point of the hair net?
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2014, 05:44:39 pm »
+1

The point of the hairnet would be to make Sansa think she's guilty, so he has a way to blackmail her. I'm pretty sure that's the point behin the hairnet thing. I guess it doesn't really matter wether the poison used was in the hairnet after al. Any theories to why the QoT would participate in making Sansa feel like she's involved?l
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2014, 05:49:50 pm »
0

The first 30 minutes of this weeks episode were just brutal. If its going to be like that every week, having read the books, I don't know how long I'll want to sit through it. It was so heAvy and draining.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2014, 05:49:57 pm »
0

The point of the hairnet would be to make Sansa think she's guilty, so he has a way to blackmail her. I'm pretty sure that's the point behin the hairnet thing. I guess it doesn't really matter wether the poison used was in the hairnet after al. Any theories to why the QoT would participate in making Sansa feel like she's involved?l

Yeah, that's possible, too.  But what is the benefit of that?  So that Sansa feels she needs to stay with Littlefinger?  It's not like she had a lot of options anyway.

But Olenna wants Joffery dead, so if Littlefinger has a way to do it, and this is his way, she may just go along with it.
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2014, 06:39:15 pm »
+1

The point of the hairnet would be to make Sansa think she's guilty, so he has a way to blackmail her. I'm pretty sure that's the point behin the hairnet thing. I guess it doesn't really matter wether the poison used was in the hairnet after al. Any theories to why the QoT would participate in making Sansa feel like she's involved?l

Yeah, that's possible, too.  But what is the benefit of that?  So that Sansa feels she needs to stay with Littlefinger?  It's not like she had a lot of options anyway.

But Olenna wants Joffery dead, so if Littlefinger has a way to do it, and this is his way, she may just go along with it.


Littlefinger is good at getting money and sewing chaos, not at interpersonal relationships. He feels Sansa is his, and does what he does to guarantee that she stays that way, in his own twisted way.

At that time, in King's Landing it was thought that Sansa was the only living child of Eddard Stark, and while the North and the Riverlands were technically under the rule of Roose Bolton and Walder Frey, I don't think anyone had any doubts about what the northern lords thougth about the Red Wedding and those that benefitted from it. So Sansa was extremely important at that time. There's a reason why Olenna wanted to marry her to her grandson. Failing that, making her feel like she's her accomplice in regicide could make her more docile when she gets to marry again after Tyrion is executed or whatever. She probably didn't know that LF planned to keep Sansa for himself.
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2014, 07:00:27 pm »
0

I guess it makes sense this way:
Littlefinger makes the QoT believe that they will blame Sansa for the murder due to her haing poison stones in her hairnet, but obviously doesn't plan to follow through on that. Still seems to be a bit risky to me, though, but maybe I'm overrating the chance that someone would notice the QoT stealing a gem from Sansa's hairnet[\spoiler]
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2014, 07:26:01 pm »
0

I guess it makes sense this way:
Littlefinger makes the QoT believe that they will blame Sansa for the murder due to her haing poison stones in her hairnet, but obviously doesn't plan to follow through on that. Still seems to be a bit risky to me, though, but maybe I'm overrating the chance that someone would notice the QoT stealing a gem from Sansa's hairnet[\spoiler]

I disagree with your notion that Olenna wanted to frame Sansa, when she knew she could easily manipulate her and use her as leverage against the Lannisters, and when everything was set up to frame Tyrion. Sure, things wouldn't have looked bright for Sansa after the assassination, but I think Tywin would have had the good sense to spare her if her involvement wasn't made obvious. Admittedly that's my opinion, but still.

Also how is stealing a gem from Sansa's hairnet, away from the focus of interest in the wedding, any more risky than actually dropping that gem in Joffrey's wine? For any level of skill the old woman could have, that's pretty brash. This scheme seems very contrived, either LF is disguising the truth in his favour, or it is a fabrication of his. Or GRRM HAD to have LF, QoT and Sansa implicated in the murder to move the plot forward, and that's the way he came up with, but that's not a very satisfying explanation.


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« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 07:53:59 pm by pacovf »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2014, 08:06:05 pm »
+1

I'm just a lowly show watcher so I can't really read or participate in this discussion, but I just watched the most recent episode and I wanted to say FUCK yeah die you little piece of shit!!!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2014, 12:30:07 am »
0

I've read the books, so it's fun to see you all theorizing. In reality (serous spoilers) Sansa had nothing to do with the murder. Neither did Little Finger. LF set-up a plan to help Sansa escape, because she reminds him of Catelynn. It is the Tyrells that murdered Jofferey because they knew he would be an awful king.
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