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Author Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]  (Read 179595 times)

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theory

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A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« on: November 06, 2012, 07:25:33 pm »
0

Be warned that this topic will contain spoilers for the entire series, that is, through the end of A Dance with Dragons.

Please enclose very sensitive posts in spoiler tags.

I'll start things off -- what are some of your favorite/believed fan theories?  R+L=J heads the list for me, including the fact that Lyanna was the laughing knight.  I also buy the Littlefinger theory that he's been doing it all along for Cat, and now Sansa, which makes him rather like Severus Snape in a sense.

I didn't like ADWD as much as the other books, but it did have a couple additions to the pantheon of great ASOIAF moments like when Jon Snow executed Janos Slynt.  Still nothing matches up to "Only Cat." for me, though.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2012, 08:17:36 pm »
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Nothing beats the execution of Janos Slynt. So awesome.

I for one buy the L + R = J theory.

Who the hell is the person killing people in Winterfell, right before Theon escapes with Jeyne?

And is Brienne luring Jaime to Catelyn/Stonehart's trap? It doesn't seem like Brienne would do that... but it seems impossible that the Hound is both alive and wanting to kill Sansa.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2012, 08:18:30 pm »
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Also, Jon Snow dead? Alive as his wolf? About to be resurrected/rescued by fire magic, thanks to Lady Melisandre?

I support King Stannis's claim to the Iron Throne.
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theory

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2012, 08:22:18 pm »
+1

As for Jon: I assume he is dead/warged into his wolf but will be resurrected by Melisandre, thus freeing him of his vow to the Night's Watch.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2012, 08:25:56 pm »
+1

.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 10:40:57 am by () | (_) ^/ »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2012, 09:20:11 pm »
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do we really need the spoiler tags in here? i feel like the title is warning enough for people to stay away.

anyway:
- i think i buy r+l=j. and i think lyanna as the laughing night is even more probable than r+l=j.
- as for jon, id have to guess he's still gonna be around, though part of me wants grrm to actually kill em off just to keep us on our toes. if he comes back though, id assume some warging or melisandre will be involved. or maybe there already was some melisandre action? maybe she did the ol mance/rattleshirt switch on jon too before jon was stabbed? i seem to remember a few things that seemed off in the last jon chapter.
- as for who is killing people, my favorite theory is theon durden
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2012, 10:29:51 pm »
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do we really need the spoiler tags in here? i feel like the title is warning enough for people to stay away.
Recent posts / RSS feeds :/
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2012, 12:10:20 am »
+3

My first thought when reading Jon Snow stabby stabby was "Et tu, Bowen Marsh?"
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2012, 01:11:17 am »
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Read the ASOIAF series after watching season one of the HBO show.  I can't get enough George RR Martin and actually just earlier today I read "A Song for Lya." Wow that was good.  It's a quick sci-fi novella written in the mid 70s that won the Hugo award and was George's biggest accomplishment at the time.  This guy can write.   
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2012, 06:08:46 pm »
+1

I'll start things off -- what are some of your favorite/believed fan theories?

Everyone dies before the end of the last book.  I mean everyone.  The last fifty pages of the last book are beautiful Tolkien-esque descriptions of scenery.

/hated the first book, haven't picked it up since.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2012, 06:25:16 pm »
+2

I'll start things off -- what are some of your favorite/believed fan theories?

Everyone dies before the end of the last book.  I mean everyone.  The last fifty pages of the last book are beautiful TolkienGMMR-esque descriptions of sceneryfood.

FTFY
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2012, 06:45:53 pm »
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Read the ASOIAF series after watching season one of the HBO show.  I can't get enough George RR Martin and actually just earlier today I read "A Song for Lya." Wow that was good.  It's a quick sci-fi novella written in the mid 70s that won the Hugo award and was George's biggest accomplishment at the time.  This guy can write.   

Season One of the HBO show was freaking amazing.  The first time that I ever actually thought that a TV/film adaptation of a book might be superior to the book itself.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2012, 10:02:41 pm »
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Season One of the HBO show was freaking amazing.  The first time that I ever actually thought that a TV/film adaptation of a book might be superior to the book itself.

season one was quite good. i held off watching until i had read the series but i was still impressed by it. i started streaming season 2 right after and was a bit disappointed. i never even bothered finishing watching the season.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2012, 10:07:34 pm »
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Really? I thought season 2 improved on season 1. Although I did miss Mark Addy's Robert Baratheon, which was in my view an excellent, entertaining, and under-appreciated performance.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2012, 10:16:50 pm »
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yeah it wasn't bad per se, i just lost interest in it fast. i think it started straying away from the books more than it ever did in season 1. for me, the highlight of book 2 was the intrigue surrounding tyrion, and i just don't think that translated well into the show.

and as you hinted at, the increase and decrease in screen time for certain favorite characters didn't help.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2012, 11:34:18 pm »
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It definitely strayed more, but I didn't find the straying bad. The streamlining at Harrenhal worked relatively well, I thought. Did you get to the scenes between Arya and Tywin Lannister? They don't happen in the book, since Tywin never comes to Harrenhal, but they are quite good in the show.

I also liked the changes at Winterfell--Theon killing Rodrik, for instance--though the castle getting destroyed at the end was extremely confusing (deliberately so, I think) if you hadn't read the book. To that end, I didn't mind reserving Ramsay Bolton for a future season, even though the way it happens in the book is a fairly cool reveal. Roose Bolton was doing different thinks in the second season as well, but Roose never seemed like he would develop into an important villain in the first two books, so it seemed sort of appropriate to have him on screen, just kind of being there without being important. And I didn't mind the changes to Robb's marriage.

To me the boring stuff was Daeneryis and Jon, but I found their book 2 plots boring anyway.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2012, 12:46:33 am »
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Read the ASOIAF series after watching season one of the HBO show.  I can't get enough George RR Martin and actually just earlier today I read "A Song for Lya." PWow that was good.  It's a quick sci-fi novella written in the mid 70s that won the Hugo award and was George's biggest accomplishment at the time.  This guy can write.   

Season One of the HBO show was freaking amazing.  The first time that I ever actually thought that a TV/film adaptation of a book might be superior to the book itself.

love the spin on margery tyrell and the actress playing her.. loved her from the tudors on showtime :)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2012, 05:44:56 am »
+1

but it seems impossible that the Hound is both alive and wanting to kill Sansa.[/spoiler]

Hound is pretty much alive, one of the theories that make the most sense, actually. Not hunting Sansa, though.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2012, 03:02:57 pm »
+1

Season One of the HBO show was freaking amazing.  The first time that I ever actually thought that a TV/film adaptation of a book might be superior to the book itself.

season one was quite good. i held off watching until i had read the series but i was still impressed by it. i started streaming season 2 right after and was a bit disappointed. i never even bothered finishing watching the season.

Season 2 featured Maisie William's incredible performance as Arya, and I, for one, am staggered that the Emmys failed to recognize this fact with a nomination.  Harrumph.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2012, 06:11:18 am »
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uhh, can someone explain this to me?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2012, 03:40:05 pm »
+1

uhh, can someone explain this to me?

Explain what?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2012, 06:08:54 pm »
+1

uhh, can someone explain this to me?

Explain what?
the entire thread. I don't get it....
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2012, 06:13:29 pm »
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the entire thread. I don't get it....

a song of ice and fire is a series of fantasy novels written by george r.r. martin. it is what the hbo series 'game of thrones' is based off of. the series isn't finished yet, so this thread has a bunch of discussion on the events so far and how they might shape the things which will happen in the next book.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2012, 06:17:20 pm »
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the entire thread. I don't get it....

a song of ice and fire is a series of fantasy novels written by george r.r. martin. it is what the hbo series 'game of thrones' is based off of. the series isn't finished yet, so this thread has a bunch of discussion on the events so far and how they might shape the things which will happen in the next book.
ahh...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2014, 03:50:03 pm »
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This seems relevant now!

I just recently finished reading through the books for the second time. It's really quite illuminating, it's always hard to remember exactly this character was or what was the relevance of that location when you are just being introduced to them for the first time. Also, the amount of foreshadowing and connections you miss during the first read is just astonishing.

I'm obviously pumped for season three of the show adaptation as well. The Viper is such a cool character, so much cool stuff happening this season!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2014, 03:53:30 pm »
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Who the hell is the person killing people in Winterfell, right before Theon escapes with Jeyne?

And is Brienne luring Jaime to Catelyn/Stonehart's trap? It doesn't seem like Brienne would do that... but it seems impossible that the Hound is both alive and wanting to kill Sansa.


Popular theory for Winterfell ghost killer is the Blackfish.  Less popular theory is Benjen Stark

No way Hound wants to kill Sansa.  There's a bizarre love thing going on there.  Popular (and believable) theory is that The Hound is the gravedigger at the monestary that Brienne visited.  I don't think Brienne will let Jamie die, but something is going to go down there.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2014, 03:54:06 pm »
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This seems relevant now!

I just recently finished reading through the books for the second time. It's really quite illuminating, it's always hard to remember exactly this character was or what was the relevance of that location when you are just being introduced to them for the first time. Also, the amount of foreshadowing and connections you miss during the first read is just astonishing.

I'm obviously pumped for season three of the show adaptation as well. The Viper is such a cool character, so much cool stuff happening this season!

Season four.  And yes it is going to be badass.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2014, 03:55:05 pm »
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So I've watched the entire show but haven't read any of the books. How dangerous is this thread, keeping in mind that I HATE spoilers?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2014, 03:58:16 pm »
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So I've watched the entire show but haven't read any of the books. How dangerous is this thread, keeping in mind that I HATE spoilers?

Do not read this thread.  Or anything anywhere about the series.  You're just begging to get spoiled by book readers.  Many do it intentionally, some just slip.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2014, 03:59:39 pm »
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So I've watched the entire show but haven't read any of the books. How dangerous is this thread, keeping in mind that I HATE spoilers?

Do not read this thread.  Or anything anywhere about the series.  You're just begging to get spoiled by book readers.  Many do it intentionally, some just slip.

Thanks for the heads up! I may read them eventually, I have several friends who say they're great!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2014, 04:01:31 pm »
+2

So I've watched the entire show but haven't read any of the books. How dangerous is this thread, keeping in mind that I HATE spoilers?

Do not read this thread.  Or anything anywhere about the series.  You're just begging to get spoiled by book readers.  Many do it intentionally, some just slip.



Thanks for the heads up! I may read them eventually, I have several friends who say they're great!


It's Kevin Spacey!!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2014, 04:17:39 pm »
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Varys being a Blackfyre?

Cold hands being Benjen Stark?

Also the Shavepate is so going to double-cross everyone.

I also support Stannis for the throne, but it's not like there are that many good pretenders. Daenerys might take over in my heart if Stannis lets Melisandre do too much of whatever she wants to do, and even then I would first back whatever scheme Doran Martell is cooking up.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 04:27:44 pm by pacovf »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2014, 04:19:23 pm »
0

So I've watched the entire show but haven't read any of the books. How dangerous is this thread, keeping in mind that I HATE spoilers?

Do not read this thread.  Or anything anywhere about the series.  You're just begging to get spoiled by book readers.  Many do it intentionally, some just slip.



Thanks for the heads up! I may read them eventually, I have several friends who say they're great!


It's Kevin Spacey!!

Snape kills Dumbledore!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2014, 04:30:21 pm »
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It would be so awesome if Jon Snow was really dead. Too bad the next book has been postponed to the next year.

As for the series, I really hope they won't take out Tyrion killing Shae
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 04:40:15 pm by Watno »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2014, 05:07:35 pm »
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My take on various theories tossed around here:
I think R*L=J is pretty likely.
I don't think Littlefinger is doing anything for Cat or Sansa in the sense that he wants to help him, but they're rather high in the list of "possessions" he wants to have.
I hadn't heard of Theon being the killer in Winterfell before, but now I think about it, the title of his last chapter makes that very likely.
I agree that the hound is likely the gravedigger with the monks, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's never mentioned again.
No idea what's going on with Brienne.
I don't buy Coldhands=Benjen. It seems a bit to fairy-taily to me, plus one of the Children says that Coldhands was killed long ago.
Not sure how I satnd on Varys being a Blackfyre.
I don't see how you can want Stannis on the throne


And another theory I find really interesting about Bran eating Jojen/Meera: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1kxijq/
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2014, 06:57:14 pm »
0

Bran is definitely very questionable.
Both L+R=J and Hound being the gravedigger seem like virtual locks to be true. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the last we heard of Sandor, though. It'd be a nice ending, but I also loved the character.
Ghost of Winterfell was Mance Rayder and the six spearwives, no?
I'm hoping Jon's properly dead and starts leading the white walker army, or something. All Starks going to the dark side one way or another! (I'm sure Sansa will think of something too at some point. Speaking of Starks, Cat used to be my least favorite character (she ruined EVERYTHING), but this cat-zombie might be even worse. Really confused there! It'll be interesting to see if Brienne's loyalties ultimately lie with her or Jaime.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2014, 07:06:59 pm »
0

My Jon Snow theory: Resurrected by Melisandre. This in fact releases him from his obligation to the Night's Watch, since a brother is only expected to give one life to the cause. He is then freed to become Lord of Winterfell.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2014, 07:23:23 pm »
0

My Jon Snow theory: Resurrected by Melisandre. This in fact releases him from his obligation to the Night's Watch, since a brother is only expected to give one life to the cause. He is then freed to become Lord of Winterfell.

I think this was somehow planned.  Something about reading the letter in front of anyone felt really wrong to me.. I mean, we all knew some bad stuff was going to happen.  I think he knew too.  Somewhere I read someone point out that Jon had a very long meeting with someone prior to it all.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2014, 07:30:30 pm »
0

My Jon Snow theory: Resurrected by Melisandre. This in fact releases him from his obligation to the Night's Watch, since a brother is only expected to give one life to the cause. He is then freed to become Lord of Winterfell.

I think this was somehow planned.  Something about reading the letter in front of anyone felt really wrong to me.. I mean, we all knew some bad stuff was going to happen.  I think he knew too.  Somewhere I read someone point out that Jon had a very long meeting with someone prior to it all.
We've gotten Jon's POV, wouldn't we have learned about this?

No, that doesn't seem like that would run by the not-so-forgiving Watch. He obviously is coming back somehow, though. The contrast to the prologue with Varamir the dying skinchanger seems relevant now, too.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2014, 07:46:19 pm »
0

My Jon Snow theory: Resurrected by Melisandre. This in fact releases him from his obligation to the Night's Watch, since a brother is only expected to give one life to the cause. He is then freed to become Lord of Winterfell.

I think this was somehow planned.  Something about reading the letter in front of anyone felt really wrong to me.. I mean, we all knew some bad stuff was going to happen.  I think he knew too.  Somewhere I read someone point out that Jon had a very long meeting with someone prior to it all.
We've gotten Jon's POV, wouldn't we have learned about this?

No, that doesn't seem like that would run by the not-so-forgiving Watch. He obviously is coming back somehow, though. The contrast to the prologue with Varamir the dying skinchanger seems relevant now, too.


But we don't get all of Jon's story.  There's a lot unaccounted for.. and from my memory, the way that whole part is told is really weird.. it just seemed like there was something else going on.  I'll try to find the actual theory.  I think the long meeting was with Melisandre or Tormund.

But yeah I think him warging into Ghost is definitely part of what happens.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2014, 07:59:42 pm »
0

Oh yeah, another theory on it:

Everyone that stabbed Jon had weird body language.  I don't have the book on me, but first Wick slashes at his neck, Jon unarms him, and Wick backs away and put his hands up, as if to say "not me".  Then Marsh stabs Jon while crying.  Jon tries to draw his sword but he can't remove it.  His swordarm doesn't work.  Could have been a result of being stabbed, but could be some kind of magic too. I don't remember if we see the third dagger, I think it comes from behind.  And the fourth one we're only told he doesn't feel.

So the thought was that there was some warg-like power, or something else, controlling people.


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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2014, 02:05:11 am »
0

I plan to write episodic reviews of Game of Thrones season 4. Here is the first!

http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/07/the-dc-reviews-game-of-thrones-season-four-premiere-episode-two-swords/

Please read and share and like and tweet, etc. It will help me justify writing more of them...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2014, 08:34:23 am »
0

I plan to write episodic reviews of Game of Thrones season 4. Here is the first!

http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/07/the-dc-reviews-game-of-thrones-season-four-premiere-episode-two-swords/

Please read and share and like and tweet, etc. It will help me justify writing more of them...

I didn't read it yet, but I hope you point out how singularly kickass Arya is.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2014, 09:52:42 am »
0

I don't see how you can want Stannis on the throne

Well, he's a BAMF. Also both a competent ruler and alive, two qualities that don't stay together for long in this saga. His reasons to fight for the throne are admittedly not the best ones, and he's got a difficult relationship with ethics, but at least he is perfectly fair with his subjects. Should he listen more to Davos and less to Melisandre, he would make a perfectly good king IMHO.

Who would you rather see in the throne, anyway? Poor Tommen is not going to last when there are so few competent people backing him. I hardly see the Targaryens getting a hold on Westeros, when every house but the Martells would oppose them, with or without unsullied. And you would have to be mad to back any Greyjoy. Who's left, the Starks?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 01:38:18 pm by pacovf »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2014, 04:21:08 pm »
0

Further regarding Stannis
Well, I wouldn't consider being sacrificed due to most likely misinterepreted phrophecies fair treatment. There are many people I guess would be better kings, though none of them are in a good position to get that job and they're probably not even interested in it. I don't see how the average lord would be worse than Stannis.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2014, 04:33:38 pm »
0

I plan to write episodic reviews of Game of Thrones season 4. Here is the first!

http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/07/the-dc-reviews-game-of-thrones-season-four-premiere-episode-two-swords/

Please read and share and like and tweet, etc. It will help me justify writing more of them...

I think the interesting thing about the title of the episode ("Two Swords") is that while Ned's sword is melted down to create two swords, only one of those is given out.  The other (Joffery's) wasn't really talked about.  However, this is another sword in the episode: Needle.  I kind of think that's more aptly the second sword of the "Two Swords".

The episode begins with Jamie being given Oathkeeper (a seemingly ironic name).  This is a symbolic point in Jaime's redemption arc, for those of us that know what's coming.  The episode ends with Arya reclaiming her sword Needle, which is the beginning of her.. well, redemption may not be the right word, but maybe revenge arc.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2014, 05:04:58 pm »
0

Dany will end up on the throne, one of the Starks ruling the north after an agreement that the dragons can fight the big monsters coming to turn the ride of the battle.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2014, 05:29:57 pm »
0

Further regarding Stannis
Well, I wouldn't consider being sacrificed due to most likely misinterepreted phrophecies fair treatment. There are many people I guess would be better kings, though none of them are in a good position to get that job and they're probably not even interested in it. I don't see how the average lord would be worse than Stannis.

I admit that he has to work on that nasty tendency of his to burn people alive to make other people die, but I believe that Davos can reign that in. He's also the guy who went and defended the Wall when asked, that counts for something. And the problem with random lords is that they don't have a claim to the throne, which comes with its own set of problems.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2014, 06:10:52 pm »
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Man, as far as who I'd like to see end up on the throne, I don't know. None of the prospective kings or queens are that appealing to me, I'd say my favorite characters are Varys and Jaime, although now that Tywin is gone ge is the only Lannister I root for), so maybe I should root for this Aegon fellow - fake or not.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2014, 11:54:15 am »
0

The psychiatrist is dead, but like the other dead people the kid talks to, he hasn't realized he's dead yet.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2014, 11:57:29 am »
+1

Man, as far as who I'd like to see end up on the throne, I don't know. None of the prospective kings or queens are that appealing to me, I'd say my favorite characters are Varys and Jaime, although now that Tywin is gone ge is the only Lannister I root for), so maybe I should root for this Aegon fellow - fake or not.

So Aegon is most assuredly fake, but he'd still probably be the best ruler for the kingdom.  He was basically raised for this job. Given that, he's all but guaranteed to die~

My favorite character is Arya.  I like Tyrion and Jaime too.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2014, 03:09:53 pm »
0

I'm still waiting for the Eyrie to be impregnated.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2014, 08:58:30 pm »
+1

This might also belong in the random thread.  But it definitely belonged here.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/anthropocene/cgi-bin/wordpress/game-of-thrones-geology/
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2014, 09:08:00 pm »
+1

http://quartermaester.info/

This made grasping the geography much easier for me. It's also incredibly cool.

edit: I guess it would be internet-polite to also tell you guys what it is. It's an interactive map, showing every character's journey through chapters/episodes. Tons of fun!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 09:33:49 pm by Eevee »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2014, 12:23:59 pm »
0

This might also belong in the random thread.  But it definitely belonged here.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/anthropocene/cgi-bin/wordpress/game-of-thrones-geology/

I always imagine Bravos (and the continent on which it resides) to be much further north than that, even though I know it isn't.  I think because of the way the maps are presented in the books.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 12:39:10 pm by Witherweaver »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2014, 12:36:17 pm »
+1

Cool sporcle where you need to identify characters by the path they take in the books: http://www.sporcle.com/games/Michiel/asoiaf-characters-by-journey-slideshow
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2014, 12:51:42 pm »
+1

"Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?"
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2014, 03:35:25 pm »
0

Is there a reason to believe Joffrey's poison was really in Sansa's hair?
I don't really see what the point of bringing it in that way would be, and pretty much the only evidence is that Littlefinger says so.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2014, 03:38:32 pm »
0

Is there a reason to believe Joffrey's poison was really in Sansa's hair?
I don't really see what the point of bringing it in that way would be, and pretty much the only evidence is that Littlefinger says so.


It's in the necklace Dontos gives her, on the show. If you watch closely, you can see Olenna take it.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2014, 03:44:19 pm »
0

Is there a reason to believe Joffrey's poison was really in Sansa's hair?
I don't really see what the point of bringing it in that way would be, and pretty much the only evidence is that Littlefinger says so.


It was pretty clear I think.. she was given this necklace kind of out of the blue and suspiciously close to the wedding by someone obviously involved with Littlefinger.  During the feast, a specific point was made about Olenna talking with Sansa shortly before Joffery died.  There may even be something about her straightening the necklace/hair oranament/whatever.  I don't have the books on me right now. 

I'm assuming you're talking about in the books.  In the show, it's made to be even more obvious, as you can see one of the gems in Sansa's necklace missing and you can see when Olenna palms it

But yeah, I do wonder why it couldn't just be in someone's pocket or pouch.  Maybe they didn't want to carry it on them on the off chance they were somehow searched or something.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2014, 03:49:56 pm »
0

Well, I guess using Sansa let's them implicate her later if she doesn't run.  And if she does run, she looks guilty anyway.

And it was a hair net in the books.  I don't have the quote, but Olenna certainly adjusts it when talking to Sansa, shortly before Joffrey dies.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2014, 04:04:47 pm »
0

I guess if the Tyrells get searched, Sansa gets searched for sure. Developing a complex plot just for the trivial task of getting poison to a wedding seems doesn't really make sense, especially if that plan is much more likely to fail than just putting it in the Queen of Thorn's pocket (her having a new hairnet could cause suspicion, someone could notice she has poison gems in her hair, the QoT "stealing" a gem could easily be noticed...)
Littlefinger and all his lackeys and LF makes sure she thinks the QoT took a gem from her hairnet. He seems to want her to feel guilty. But if that's the point of it, there's no reason it needs to actually be true.
That only leaves the question what the QoT gets from having Sansa to feel guilty, or why she would agree to that part of LF's plan otherwise
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2014, 04:08:43 pm »
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I'm pretty sure Littlefinger doesn't want to implicate Sansa. He has a creepy desire for her and he wants her in order to get power over the North
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2014, 04:18:50 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure Littlefinger doesn't want to implicate Sansa. He has a creepy desire for her and he wants her in order to get power over the North

Huh?  He knows her disappearing makes her look 100% guilty, and he orchestrated her escape.

But it's possible the Tyrrels had more influence over the plan than Littlefinger implies.  They could have chosen the hairnet method in case they needed to scapegoat Sansa.  Or Littlefinger could have agreed to or introduced the idea of the hairnet in order to placate the Tyrrels who thought Sansa would be implicated, while planning to take Sansa away without informing them.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 04:20:09 pm by Witherweaver »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2014, 04:35:22 pm »
0

What I meant to say was that LF doesn't want to implicate Sansa while she might potentially be captured. Once she escapes it doesn't matter, but I don't see him risk her being executed with the big plans he has for her. The point at which QoT allegedly takes the poison from Sansa's hairnet is long before the actual poisoning happens, and it's out in the yard, so a potential bag control would happen after that point. QoT would have enough time to get the poison from a less valuable courier if she needed one (like Dontos).
The Tyrells wanting to scapegoat Sansa doesn't make sense either, since "I took the poison from her hairnet, so it wasn't me" isn't a good excuse.
Also Dontos seems to be under LF's control, so I think LF orchestrated the plan.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2014, 04:40:46 pm »
0

What I meant to say was that LF doesn't want to implicate Sansa while she might potentially be captured. Once she escapes it doesn't matter, but I don't see him risk her being executed with the big plans he has for her. The point at which QoT allegedly takes the poison from Sansa's hairnet is long before the actual poisoning happens, and it's out in the yard, so a potential bag control would happen after that point. QoT would have enough time to get the poison from a less valuable courier if she needed one (like Dontos).
The Tyrells wanting to scapegoat Sansa doesn't make sense either, since "I took the poison from her hairnet, so it wasn't me" isn't a good excuse.
Also Dontos seems to be under LF's control, so I think LF orchestrated the plan.


Well, imagine the Tyrells didn't know that Sansa was going to escape.  Then at some point they can either accuse Sansa or get someone to poke around and look at her hairnet.  It's missing a gem, and testing would show that the gems are indeed crystallized poison.  Therefore, Sansa would look guilty, and her claiming that Olenna took it from her hairnet would not hold any weight.  Easy to deny by Olenna, impossible to prove by Sansa. Especially coming from Sansa who has every reason to hate Joffery, and who comes from a family that everyone hates.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2014, 04:41:52 pm »
0

This last string of spoilers is about the end of the third book and one PoV of the fifth book, if anyone is wondering.

Anyway, it struck me as needlessly contrived when I read that. There must certainly be easier ways to smuggle poison into the wedding banquet, not to mention that having Olenna poison the wine seems terribly risky, when she is in the top three most suspicious people in Cersei's feverish mind. Littlefinger could indeed be lying, he's patologically incapable of telling the truth, and this version of the events puts Sansa in a difficult situation, with LF as the only person she can trust. But then, if what he tells is a lie, what's the point of the hair net?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2014, 05:44:39 pm »
+1

The point of the hairnet would be to make Sansa think she's guilty, so he has a way to blackmail her. I'm pretty sure that's the point behin the hairnet thing. I guess it doesn't really matter wether the poison used was in the hairnet after al. Any theories to why the QoT would participate in making Sansa feel like she's involved?l
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2014, 05:49:50 pm »
0

The first 30 minutes of this weeks episode were just brutal. If its going to be like that every week, having read the books, I don't know how long I'll want to sit through it. It was so heAvy and draining.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2014, 05:49:57 pm »
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The point of the hairnet would be to make Sansa think she's guilty, so he has a way to blackmail her. I'm pretty sure that's the point behin the hairnet thing. I guess it doesn't really matter wether the poison used was in the hairnet after al. Any theories to why the QoT would participate in making Sansa feel like she's involved?l

Yeah, that's possible, too.  But what is the benefit of that?  So that Sansa feels she needs to stay with Littlefinger?  It's not like she had a lot of options anyway.

But Olenna wants Joffery dead, so if Littlefinger has a way to do it, and this is his way, she may just go along with it.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2014, 06:39:15 pm »
+1

The point of the hairnet would be to make Sansa think she's guilty, so he has a way to blackmail her. I'm pretty sure that's the point behin the hairnet thing. I guess it doesn't really matter wether the poison used was in the hairnet after al. Any theories to why the QoT would participate in making Sansa feel like she's involved?l

Yeah, that's possible, too.  But what is the benefit of that?  So that Sansa feels she needs to stay with Littlefinger?  It's not like she had a lot of options anyway.

But Olenna wants Joffery dead, so if Littlefinger has a way to do it, and this is his way, she may just go along with it.


Littlefinger is good at getting money and sewing chaos, not at interpersonal relationships. He feels Sansa is his, and does what he does to guarantee that she stays that way, in his own twisted way.

At that time, in King's Landing it was thought that Sansa was the only living child of Eddard Stark, and while the North and the Riverlands were technically under the rule of Roose Bolton and Walder Frey, I don't think anyone had any doubts about what the northern lords thougth about the Red Wedding and those that benefitted from it. So Sansa was extremely important at that time. There's a reason why Olenna wanted to marry her to her grandson. Failing that, making her feel like she's her accomplice in regicide could make her more docile when she gets to marry again after Tyrion is executed or whatever. She probably didn't know that LF planned to keep Sansa for himself.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2014, 07:00:27 pm »
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I guess it makes sense this way:
Littlefinger makes the QoT believe that they will blame Sansa for the murder due to her haing poison stones in her hairnet, but obviously doesn't plan to follow through on that. Still seems to be a bit risky to me, though, but maybe I'm overrating the chance that someone would notice the QoT stealing a gem from Sansa's hairnet[\spoiler]
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2014, 07:26:01 pm »
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I guess it makes sense this way:
Littlefinger makes the QoT believe that they will blame Sansa for the murder due to her haing poison stones in her hairnet, but obviously doesn't plan to follow through on that. Still seems to be a bit risky to me, though, but maybe I'm overrating the chance that someone would notice the QoT stealing a gem from Sansa's hairnet[\spoiler]

I disagree with your notion that Olenna wanted to frame Sansa, when she knew she could easily manipulate her and use her as leverage against the Lannisters, and when everything was set up to frame Tyrion. Sure, things wouldn't have looked bright for Sansa after the assassination, but I think Tywin would have had the good sense to spare her if her involvement wasn't made obvious. Admittedly that's my opinion, but still.

Also how is stealing a gem from Sansa's hairnet, away from the focus of interest in the wedding, any more risky than actually dropping that gem in Joffrey's wine? For any level of skill the old woman could have, that's pretty brash. This scheme seems very contrived, either LF is disguising the truth in his favour, or it is a fabrication of his. Or GRRM HAD to have LF, QoT and Sansa implicated in the murder to move the plot forward, and that's the way he came up with, but that's not a very satisfying explanation.


Have you noticed you've got 1337 posts, Watno?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 07:53:59 pm by pacovf »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2014, 08:06:05 pm »
+1

I'm just a lowly show watcher so I can't really read or participate in this discussion, but I just watched the most recent episode and I wanted to say FUCK yeah die you little piece of shit!!!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2014, 12:30:07 am »
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I've read the books, so it's fun to see you all theorizing. In reality (serous spoilers) Sansa had nothing to do with the murder. Neither did Little Finger. LF set-up a plan to help Sansa escape, because she reminds him of Catelynn. It is the Tyrells that murdered Jofferey because they knew he would be an awful king.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2014, 12:35:54 am »
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I've read the books, so it's fun to see you all theorizing. In reality (serous spoilers) Sansa had nothing to do with the murder. Neither did Little Finger. LF set-up a plan to help Sansa escape, because she reminds him of Catelynn. It is the Tyrells that murdered Jofferey because they knew he would be an awful king.

Uh.. are you sure?  We know Sansa was not knowingly involved, but Dontos gave her the hair net.  That implicates Littlefinger much more than the Tyrells.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2014, 12:43:30 am »
+1

I've read the books, so it's fun to see you all theorizing. In reality (serous spoilers) Sansa had nothing to do with the murder. Neither did Little Finger. LF set-up a plan to help Sansa escape, because she reminds him of Catelynn. It is the Tyrells that murdered Jofferey because they knew he would be an awful king.

I think most of the people theorizing have read the books. LF most definitely played a part in the murder. He planned for dontos to give sansa the poison in the hairnet. The question people are asking is WHY he and the QoT planned it this way, when it could have been a lot simpler.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2014, 02:17:21 am »
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I'm just a lowly show watcher so I can't really read or participate in this discussion, but I just watched the most recent episode and I wanted to say FUCK yeah die you little piece of shit!!!

Just watched that toniiiiiiiigggghhhhhttttt.

And there was much rejoicing.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2014, 05:20:39 am »
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After a careful rereading I find the blog  http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html very compelling.

In a nutshell, the series is based on Norse  mythology and will culminate in a war between the children of the forests and mankind, with most of the important surviving main characters fighting on the side of the Children against humanity.  Many assume Dany and her dragons and riders (song of fire) will be pitted against the Others (song of ice), but this blogger believes they will be on the same side along with Bran the Greenseer and the other Stark kids in second lives as Direwolves against humanity, whose forces will be lead by Jaime Lannister.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2014, 09:47:12 am »
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I've read the books, so it's fun to see you all theorizing. In reality (serous spoilers) Sansa had nothing to do with the murder. Neither did Little Finger. LF set-up a plan to help Sansa escape, because she reminds him of Catelynn. It is the Tyrells that murdered Jofferey because they knew he would be an awful king.

I think most of the people theorizing have read the books. LF most definitely played a part in the murder. His wife has the hair net, he's getting humiliated, now everyone thinks he did it and LF can walk away freely.

Right, of course. Not sure why I said LF had nothing to do with it. The point of planning it this way to make it look like Tyrion did it. That way LF can walk away freely.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2014, 09:59:44 am »
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But noone even knows LF was in the proximity. Also the fact that the poison was allegedly in Sansa's hair is never revealed to the Lannisers I think. The hairnet thing is totally unnecessary in the plan to implicate Tyrion.
@pacovf I don't think the Tyrelsl had reason to hope to get Sansa under their control again after Tywin had married her to Tyrion.
Maybe the QoT didn't even put the poison in the wine, but Margeary put it in the cake. That would be a lot easier to do discreetly than ripping a stone out of someone's hairnet.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #81 on: April 21, 2014, 12:12:15 am »
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Oberon is quickly becoming my favorite show character.  He was pretty cool in the books, but a lot less focus was on him (until the trial).  But in the show he's awesome in every moment he's on screen.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #82 on: April 21, 2014, 03:45:21 pm »
+1

Oberon is quickly becoming my favorite show character.  He was pretty cool in the books, but a lot less focus was on him (until the trial).  But in the show he's awesome in every moment he's on screen.

A lot of the side characters have more screen time, just because they are paying actors to be on the show. He doesn't really do much in the books. Even the trail is mostly just 1 chapter or 2.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #83 on: April 21, 2014, 06:56:26 pm »
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So I don't necessarily want to start a big discussion about it (because man the internet has soured me on talking about Serious Things) but I've heard that the reason the director of this week's episode has that horrible tone-deaf quote about "I didn't film the scene as a rape scene" when that's obviously what it is is because D&D (showrunners) altered it in editing. Does anyone have a source for that?

I've read Martin's statement on the issue and it sounds like a whole lot of words that say nothing.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #84 on: April 21, 2014, 07:11:51 pm »
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I didn't know that, but that would make sense. It is certainly a rape scene and very different from the book. Perhaps it was more in line with what happened in the book before the editing was made.

It's a weird change, and one I didn't really like. I haven't seen many defenders. It really takes Jaime down a peg as far as moral standing goes. I'm not sure why they would do that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #85 on: April 21, 2014, 07:31:46 pm »
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I really don't like the way they've changed Jaime and his relationship with Cersei from the book. I'm also curious about the relationship between Snow and Thorne, seems very different from the books, but not necessarily worse. Show-wildlings seem harder to root for with how they showed their "raiding". Ygritte's death will be less sad this way I think. I never liked her in the books either though, so this isn't ruining an emotional death for me. The Thenns are absolutely terrifying, which really feels unnecessary when you think of their story line in the book this far. Just seems sort of show-offy that they go to those lengths to establish how horrible they are considering no other wildling group gets as much attention, and as far as I can tell all the Thenns do is represent how the free folk are all different and some don't get along that well. I didn't like the way they've changed the relationship between Stannis and Davos (whom I love as a character in both the books and the show). Stannis isn't being very kingly.

The last scene was super dramatic and very well done! On par with the birth of the dragons scene as far as favorite Daenarys scenes in the show go. That storyline from the books definitely needed improving too!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2014, 07:35:07 pm »
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Also, what's up with Littlefinger's accent? I like that he has a distinct speaking rhythm, but he pronounces some words really oddly, which makes the whole accent seem fake.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2014, 07:36:44 pm »
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edit: this should be in spoilers, sorry!

I'm not digging the Sam-Gilly storyline at all. I fear we'll have to suffer Tyrion-Shae level of horribleness for the near future, ugh.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #88 on: April 22, 2014, 05:34:47 pm »
+1

I'm not really bothered by most of the changes in the show, except: Where the hell is Moonboy!?!?!

We need Moonboy on screen, because I NEED to hear Tyrion say "she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleback and probably Moon Boy for all I know." :( Single most looked-foward-to line in the books.  Well, that and hearing Charles Dance say "Wherever whores go."  I can't wait for that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #89 on: April 23, 2014, 06:49:17 pm »
+1

Biggest concern with the changes to Tommen: WILL WE GET SER POUNCE? INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2014, 01:26:36 am »
+4

Biggest concern with the changes to Tommen: WILL WE GET SER POUNCE? INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW.

THE POUNCE THAT WAS PROMISED
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2014, 01:29:01 am »
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Biggest concern with the changes to Tommen: WILL WE GET SER POUNCE? INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW.

Agreed! They made him too old! Now fawning over kittens will just be weird*

*I am 26, and when my brother brought three kittens with him to visit me last weekend, I fawned.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2014, 12:48:00 pm »
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edit: this should be in spoilers, sorry!

I'm not digging the Sam-Gilly storyline at all. I fear we'll have to suffer Tyrion-Shae level of horribleness for the near future, ugh.

Sam's storyline is short in book 4. Gilly is present but this takes nowhere as much presence as Tyrion and Shae (In fact I don't even remember it really being super important). After the baby swap Gilly is essentailly just sad the whole time. Book 5 Sam doesn't appear at all except at the very beginning where it overlaps with book 4.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2014, 01:15:07 pm »
0

edit: this should be in spoilers, sorry!

I'm not digging the Sam-Gilly storyline at all. I fear we'll have to suffer Tyrion-Shae level of horribleness for the near future, ugh.

Sam's storyline is short in book 4. Gilly is present but this takes nowhere as much presence as Tyrion and Shae (In fact I don't even remember it really being super important). After the baby swap Gilly is essentailly just sad the whole time. Book 5 Sam doesn't appear at all except at the very beginning where it overlaps with book 4.
Yes, but the showrunners seem strangely intent on shoving terrible romance down our throats. I don't understand what they are doing with Shae.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2014, 01:23:25 pm »
0

edit: this should be in spoilers, sorry!

I'm not digging the Sam-Gilly storyline at all. I fear we'll have to suffer Tyrion-Shae level of horribleness for the near future, ugh.

Sam's storyline is short in book 4. Gilly is present but this takes nowhere as much presence as Tyrion and Shae (In fact I don't even remember it really being super important). After the baby swap Gilly is essentailly just sad the whole time. Book 5 Sam doesn't appear at all except at the very beginning where it overlaps with book 4.
Yes, but the showrunners seem strangely intent on shoving terrible romance down our throats. I don't understand what they are doing with Shae.

But to be fair that was a big deal in the books too. Much of book 2 was Tyrion trying to keep her a secret and visiting her. I don't think GRRM will let them make it too important. After all he is pretty involved in the making of the show.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2014, 01:27:09 pm »
0

edit: this should be in spoilers, sorry!

I'm not digging the Sam-Gilly storyline at all. I fear we'll have to suffer Tyrion-Shae level of horribleness for the near future, ugh.

Sam's storyline is short in book 4. Gilly is present but this takes nowhere as much presence as Tyrion and Shae (In fact I don't even remember it really being super important). After the baby swap Gilly is essentailly just sad the whole time. Book 5 Sam doesn't appear at all except at the very beginning where it overlaps with book 4.
Yes, but the showrunners seem strangely intent on shoving terrible romance down our throats. I don't understand what they are doing with Shae.

But to be fair that was a big deal in the books too. Much of book 2 was Tyrion trying to keep her a secret and visiting her. I don't think GRRM will let them make it too important. After all he is pretty involved in the making of the show.
Oh I'm not referring to screen time. I'm referring to her turning down diamonds and generally being portrayed as a good girl and the victim. Shae's betrayal was a huge reason for Tyrion going down the dark path he did. Seems a lock he didn't really get on that ship, but they are still making her a completely different from the books as far as I can tell, and I'm worried how that will affect Tyrions arc.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2014, 01:31:30 pm »
0

edit: this should be in spoilers, sorry!

I'm not digging the Sam-Gilly storyline at all. I fear we'll have to suffer Tyrion-Shae level of horribleness for the near future, ugh.

Sam's storyline is short in book 4. Gilly is present but this takes nowhere as much presence as Tyrion and Shae (In fact I don't even remember it really being super important). After the baby swap Gilly is essentailly just sad the whole time. Book 5 Sam doesn't appear at all except at the very beginning where it overlaps with book 4.
Yes, but the showrunners seem strangely intent on shoving terrible romance down our throats. I don't understand what they are doing with Shae.

But to be fair that was a big deal in the books too. Much of book 2 was Tyrion trying to keep her a secret and visiting her. I don't think GRRM will let them make it too important. After all he is pretty involved in the making of the show.
Oh I'm not referring to screen time. I'm referring to her turning down diamonds and generally being portrayed as a good girl and the victim. Shae's betrayal was a huge reason for Tyrion going down the dark path he did. Seems a lock he didn't really get on that ship, but they are still making her a completely different from the books as far as I can tell, and I'm worried how that will affect Tyrions arc.

Hmmm, well the way I saw it was that he was being played by her. He stayed because he though she loved him, but in in fact she didn't, she just wanted money, which we learn when he finds her sleeping with his father. Tyrions arc won't change because he will still be blamed for Joff's murder and he'll still escape, be on the boat to the free cities, be captured as a slave etc...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 01:52:34 pm by KingZog3 »
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2014, 01:39:53 pm »
0

I'm assuming Tyrions arc will be the same.  Shae will be back and testify against him, and it will tear him up even more because he has more reason to believe she's sincere (turning down the diamonds, crying, etc.)).  They can't take out him killing Shae in Tywin's bed, because that's so crucial to his development.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2014, 01:40:44 pm »
0

King you should probably spoiler tag that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #99 on: April 24, 2014, 01:53:16 pm »
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King you should probably spoiler tag that.

Yeah, I did. I forgot when I was writing it. Nobody saw that!!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #100 on: April 24, 2014, 02:09:51 pm »
0

King you should probably spoiler tag that.

Yeah, I did. I forgot when I was writing it. Nobody saw that!!

I feel like people who want to avoid spoilers will just avoid this thread...
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #101 on: April 24, 2014, 02:13:10 pm »
0

King you should probably spoiler tag that.

Yeah, I did. I forgot when I was writing it. Nobody saw that!!

I feel like people who want to avoid spoilers will just avoid this thread...

Yeah, but being careful is good.  Plus there is ambiguity between show spoilers and book spoilers.  And, well, we've all been using the tags :)
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #102 on: April 24, 2014, 02:18:35 pm »
0

I think it's fine not to use Spoiler tags for show spoilers. But use them for like book spoilers, maybe? I don't know, is there anyone in this thread who watches the show but hasn't read the books?
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #103 on: April 24, 2014, 02:19:53 pm »
0

There could also, in theory, be people that have read the books but haven't yet watched the show, and they don't want to be spoiled with how the show makes changes ... for some reason.

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KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #104 on: April 24, 2014, 02:22:10 pm »
0

King you should probably spoiler tag that.

Yeah, I did. I forgot when I was writing it. Nobody saw that!!

I feel like people who want to avoid spoilers will just avoid this thread...

Yeah, but being careful is good.  Plus there is ambiguity between show spoilers and book spoilers.  And, well, we've all been using the tags :)

It is good to be careful, but anyone who is shocked when they see spoilers in this thread is either an idiot, or illiterate.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #105 on: April 24, 2014, 02:51:17 pm »
0

King you should probably spoiler tag that.

Yeah, I did. I forgot when I was writing it. Nobody saw that!!

I feel like people who want to avoid spoilers will just avoid this thread...

Yeah, but being careful is good.  Plus there is ambiguity between show spoilers and book spoilers.  And, well, we've all been using the tags :)

It is good to be careful, but anyone who is shocked when they see spoilers in this thread is either an idiot, or illiterate.

I think Awaclus signature is relevant here.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9117.msg279810#msg279810
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 03:40:53 pm by pacovf »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #106 on: April 24, 2014, 06:03:21 pm »
+2

King you should probably spoiler tag that.

Yeah, I did. I forgot when I was writing it. Nobody saw that!!

I feel like people who want to avoid spoilers will just avoid this thread...

Yeah, but being careful is good.  Plus there is ambiguity between show spoilers and book spoilers.  And, well, we've all been using the tags :)

It is good to be careful, but anyone who is shocked when they see spoilers in this thread is either an idiot, or illiterate.

I think Awaclus signature is relevant here.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9117.msg279810#msg279810
Really? I think we might have just entered an infinite loop.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 06:07:39 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #107 on: April 29, 2014, 04:51:32 am »
0

I didn't know that, but that would make sense. It is certainly a rape scene and very different from the book. Perhaps it was more in line with what happened in the book before the editing was made.

It's a weird change, and one I didn't really like. I haven't seen many defenders. It really takes Jaime down a peg as far as moral standing goes. I'm not sure why they would do that.

Weird, it's quite opposite here, most people I talked with here (including female friends) agree that whole "rape scene" thing is quite overblown.


On yesterday's episode, I don't get why so many changes. Sigh.
Also White Walkers thing was ... a huge WTF moment.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #108 on: April 29, 2014, 05:18:56 am »
0

I think it's fine not to use Spoiler tags for show spoilers. But use them for like book spoilers, maybe? I don't know, is there anyone in this thread who watches the show but hasn't read the books?

For the record, I haven't read the books and recently started watching the show. But I'm not really following the thread, so it doesn't matter.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 05:38:10 am by Jimmmmm »
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #109 on: April 29, 2014, 09:13:20 am »
0

SER POUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNCE
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #110 on: April 29, 2014, 09:28:54 am »
0

I didn't know that, but that would make sense. It is certainly a rape scene and very different from the book. Perhaps it was more in line with what happened in the book before the editing was made.

It's a weird change, and one I didn't really like. I haven't seen many defenders. It really takes Jaime down a peg as far as moral standing goes. I'm not sure why they would do that.

Weird, it's quite opposite here, most people I talked with here (including female friends) agree that whole "rape scene" thing is quite overblown.


On yesterday's episode, I don't get why so many changes. Sigh.
Also White Walkers thing was ... a huge WTF moment.

I was actually excited to see something where I actually did not know what was going on.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #111 on: April 29, 2014, 10:21:50 am »
0

SER POUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNCE

I was afraid they were going to cut him and his friends. Luckily they didn't.

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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #112 on: April 29, 2014, 10:37:10 am »
0

SER POUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNCE

I was afraid they were going to cut him and his friends. Luckily they didn't.

I started laughing when he first said "Sir Pounce?!"  My first thought was that Voltaire is going to be so happy.  I then had this weird fleeting thought that they quickly edited that scene in after the public uproar from suspicions of Sir Pounce getting cut after the previous week's episode.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #113 on: April 29, 2014, 10:52:14 am »
+1

Heard a good one today:

"Now the book readers should stop watching the show to avoid the spoilers. Oh, the irony".
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #114 on: April 29, 2014, 10:55:49 am »
0

Heard a good one today:

"Now the book readers should stop watching the show to avoid the spoilers. Oh, the irony".

Probably because if they didn't read book 5, then there will be spoilers since those two books will happen at the same time in the show.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #115 on: April 29, 2014, 10:57:29 am »
0

No, it's the Others thing.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #116 on: April 29, 2014, 10:58:22 am »
+1

Oh, and on the subject of changes in episode 4:

I'm a bit wary of it.  I think there are a few things going on.  First, I think Jon came back to Castle Black a lot earlier than in the books, so they probably need another story arc to time the big battle correctly.  Secondly, having Bran interact with people we've seen before gives viewers some more perspective of what's going on with him and where he is.  Maybe they thought it was important for people to have a picture in their head of where Bran actually is, instead of having him entirely disconnected from everyone else.  In the books it feels like he travels forever and ever, and I didn't really have any idea of where he ever was.. it just seemed like really far north.

I think the biggest concern is Bran/Jon meeting.  I guess Bran could convince Jon that his quest is necessary, but I think them meeting at this point, and Jon letting Bran go, is going to seem really weird.  I think the best thing to happen would be for  Jon and his party to attack Craster's, there big a big battle between, and having Bran and co. escape in the mayhem without Jon or anyone else seeing him.

I'm not too concerned with the changes in Meereen.  Dany's storyline feels like it's moving faster than in the books, which I think is good.  I wonder if we're going to start meeting some people traveling towards her, or if we're going to meet them next season when they're well on route.  Though they may be cutting some... unlike many people, I liked Quentin and enjoyed his tragic arc.  It as just so Martin, to have this young idealistic prince with an actual valid solution to the problem at hand (Dorn backing Dany could probably get her the throne), come and fail so horribly.  Especially with all the prophecy buildup that we're expecting someone else to be able to ride her other two dragons.  Tyrion I'm guessing will come to Dany the same way, and probably meet Aegon and Cottington on the way.

Which brings me to the Greyjoys.  I'm concerned we never saw Balon die.  Or heard about it.  It's still likely to happen as Stannis burned a leech, but I'm wondering why it's taking so long.  Maybe they're going to do more on the Iron Islands in the latter half of the season.  If Balon dies later on, they can introduce Euron and Victarion (and Aeron) at that point.  They can cut out the Queensmoot stuff and just have Euron come in for a quick takeover. I hope they don't cut Victarion and Euron, as I feel they're going to become pretty important.  Thought, they're not really my favorite characters.

It felt like Locke got to Castle Black really fast.  I guess he had good horses and you can travel quickly alone.  Also.. shouldn't Stannis have left by now?  Every time I see him I think he should be gone.. especially when Davos read him the letter at the end of last season.  In the books it seemed like Stannis was convinced to leave right away.. and in the show it seemed like he was convinced too.  I keep wondering what's going to convince him to leave.

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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #117 on: April 29, 2014, 12:36:32 pm »
0

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #118 on: April 29, 2014, 12:53:21 pm »
0

My thoughts on the latest episode, if anyone is interested: http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/28/game-of-thrones-review-even-diehard-fans-were-shocked-to-meet-this-monster/

I like the point about highlighting Dany's ruthlessness and comparing it with the likes of her father, Joffrey, and Cersei.  She's often seen as "the good guy" of the story, but she's actually very brutal and causing all kinds of turmoil.  (Though she does have a moral ground.)   The Ice/Fire duality is also relevant here, as even though Dany represents Fire, she in many ways acts like Ice in her hard, emotionless, and calculating judgement.  The Mad King, Joffrey, and Cersei, on the other hand, were much more like Fire; they would act spontaneously, fueled by wild emotions.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #119 on: April 29, 2014, 04:43:32 pm »
+1


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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #120 on: April 30, 2014, 03:12:09 pm »
0

No, it's the Others thing.
Just found out it's even worse than I thought: You might not want to click this even if you have read all the books and watched the show

Also I found some things in that last episode quite strange
Why the hell is there a Slave General assembly in Mereen where they discuss making a revolt or not. Especially after Daenerys has encouraged them to do that, shouldn't the Masters have a closer eye on them?
Also, I don't see the timelines matching up well with Jon and Bran

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #121 on: April 30, 2014, 03:21:19 pm »
0

In response to the thing about the Others that Watno posted:

I don't think that means that the White Walker guy who converts the baby is necessarily the same Night's King from the fairy tale. HBO might have just decided to give the character a name that was familiar to book fans. It might even just be a stand-in name. Or it could be that the current leader of the Others is always called "the Night's King."
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Twistedarcher

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #122 on: May 04, 2014, 10:08:17 pm »
0

Spoiler from this week's episode

So Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn? I thought we already saw Cersei/Pycelle saying they did this?
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #123 on: May 04, 2014, 10:12:16 pm »
0

Spoiler from this week's episode

So Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn? I thought we already saw Cersei/Pycelle saying they did this?

I think they only hinted that Pycelle knew of the poison used.  It was Littlefinger's plan to increase Stark/Lannister tension.  He implicated the Lannisters in Jon Arryn's death and in Bran's fall.  He pretty much knew that Ned's sense of honor would do the rest.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #124 on: May 04, 2014, 10:15:05 pm »
0

Weird, I guess I just glossed over the passage in the Storm of Swords where that conversation happened. I was sure it was Cersei, but apparently I was wrong.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #125 on: May 04, 2014, 10:38:16 pm »
0

Weird, I guess I just glossed over the passage in the Storm of Swords where that conversation happened. I was sure it was Cersei, but apparently I was wrong.

Oh, I see.  It was Clash of Kings, not Storm of Swords.. page 412:

"Yes," he whimpered, "yes, Colemon was purging, so I sent him away.  The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew.  It was not me who gave him the poison, though, I swear it."  The old man wept.  "Varys will tell you, it was the boy, his squire, Hugh he was called, he must surely have done it, ask your sister, ask her."

Here Pycelle is admitting to letting Jon Arryn die instead of treating him for the poison.  (Read before that, Tyrion accuses him of not trying to save Jon Arryn's life.)  But he doesn't know who gave the poison.  He was assuming it was at the behest of Cercei.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #126 on: May 04, 2014, 11:52:30 pm »
0

Yup, that was my confusion. I don't have the passage, but apparently in Storm of Swords, Chapter 80 (Sansa's viewpoint), a similar conversation happened to the one in tonight's episode, where Lysa admitted poisoning Jon to LF.
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KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #127 on: May 05, 2014, 12:40:14 am »
0

Yup, that was my confusion. I don't have the passage, but apparently in Storm of Swords, Chapter 80 (Sansa's viewpoint), a similar conversation happened to the one in tonight's episode, where Lysa admitted poisoning Jon to LF.

That happened, but I think that was in Feast for Crows. You don't see Lysa till then.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #128 on: May 05, 2014, 09:12:21 am »
0

Yup, that was my confusion. I don't have the passage, but apparently in Storm of Swords, Chapter 80 (Sansa's viewpoint), a similar conversation happened to the one in tonight's episode, where Lysa admitted poisoning Jon to LF.

That happened, but I think that was in Feast for Crows. You don't see Lysa till then.

Seriously big spoiler: No, TA was right. Lysa dies at the end of Storm of Swords!
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #129 on: May 05, 2014, 10:10:40 am »
0

Yup, that was my confusion. I don't have the passage, but apparently in Storm of Swords, Chapter 80 (Sansa's viewpoint), a similar conversation happened to the one in tonight's episode, where Lysa admitted poisoning Jon to LF.

That happened, but I think that was in Feast for Crows. You don't see Lysa till then.

Seriously big spoiler: No, TA was right. Lysa dies at the end of Storm of Swords!

Speaking of which, why no singer?  Think he'll be introduced later, or will they use someone else?
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KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #130 on: May 05, 2014, 11:13:28 am »
0

Yup, that was my confusion. I don't have the passage, but apparently in Storm of Swords, Chapter 80 (Sansa's viewpoint), a similar conversation happened to the one in tonight's episode, where Lysa admitted poisoning Jon to LF.

That happened, but I think that was in Feast for Crows. You don't see Lysa till then.

Seriously big spoiler: No, TA was right. Lysa dies at the end of Storm of Swords!

Oh yeah. I remember now.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #131 on: May 05, 2014, 11:28:27 am »
0

Yup, that was my confusion. I don't have the passage, but apparently in Storm of Swords, Chapter 80 (Sansa's viewpoint), a similar conversation happened to the one in tonight's episode, where Lysa admitted poisoning Jon to LF.

That happened, but I think that was in Feast for Crows. You don't see Lysa till then.

Seriously big spoiler: No, TA was right. Lysa dies at the end of Storm of Swords!

I was waiting for this to happen last night.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #132 on: May 05, 2014, 11:38:19 am »
0

Yup, that was my confusion. I don't have the passage, but apparently in Storm of Swords, Chapter 80 (Sansa's viewpoint), a similar conversation happened to the one in tonight's episode, where Lysa admitted poisoning Jon to LF.

That happened, but I think that was in Feast for Crows. You don't see Lysa till then.

Seriously big spoiler: No, TA was right. Lysa dies at the end of Storm of Swords!

I was waiting for this to happen last night.

I was afraid they were going to; it would have been too rushed.  It would have been funny, though.. Lysa is like "Let's get married right NOW".  And Petyr is like "sure, sure, honey.. *PUSH*". 

Side note, Lysa is annoying as hell, but the portrayal is really good.  I really like the portrayal of Littlefinger, too, though everyone seems to complain about him.  His face when she was confessing to everything was just great.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #133 on: May 05, 2014, 11:52:31 am »
0

This was definitely one of Littlefinger's best episodes to date.

Her going out the door is likely in Episode 7
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #134 on: May 06, 2014, 01:09:22 pm »
+1

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #135 on: May 14, 2014, 05:38:35 pm »
+1

http://imgur.com/a/GZYp6

Crossposting to the Hearthstone thread of course...
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #136 on: May 19, 2014, 10:16:05 am »
0

What's up with waiting two weeks?  Fearing low ratings from a Holiday weekend or something?

Also, very sastisfying to see Lysa fly.  I really did want to hear the words, "Only Cat", though "Only your sister" is perhaps more insulting.  I don't get bothered too much by changes from the book. I think the show is doing an excellent job.  But there are a few lines from the series that stuck with me, so I would really like to hear them said in a visual and dramatic setting (e.g., "Only Cat," "Wherever whores go," Tyrion's line to Jamie about Lancel and Kettleback and Moonboy).  I also wonder if we're going to get to hear Brienne searching for a maid of ten and three. I'm not sure how much that story line is going to change.. looks like it's still going along the same path.  I think in the books she runs into Gendry instead of Hotpie, but I don't think Gendry tipped her off about Arya?  I don't have the books handy at the moment. But it's looking like The Hound's bite is taking the place of the (knife?) wound he got in the books, and Arya will leave him for dead in the next few episodes.  We may get to see Brienne go to the monk's place and see/hear about Gravedigger as well.

Also, Oberyn, so great.  I like that actor a lot.  The scene with Tyrion in the dungeon was one of the best in the series so far, I think.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #137 on: May 19, 2014, 10:24:43 am »
0

Oh yeah, and minor things:

Sansa's hair should be dyed, she should not be wearing Tully blue, and I guess they're going to claim Lysa just fell?  Or committed suicide?  Or will he still somehow construct someone to take the fall?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #138 on: May 19, 2014, 12:12:06 pm »
0

The actor playing Oberyn is doing one hell of a job. That scene with Tyrion was one of the strongest in the entire series this far, just wow.

I too have a few smaller nitpicks, I didn't like the way the presented snow Winterfell (needed more screen time, and the scene didn't really feel natural or magical the way it did in the books) , why would they not include "Cat, only Cat"???, they really ought to be more protecting of Sansa's true identity, and The Mountain being recast twice isn't optimal (+the scene of him hacking random peasants to pieces was a bit stupid).. but, overall, I really enjoyed the episode, one of the strongest of the season.


Can't wait for "You are going to fight that?" Too bad it's a two week wait!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #139 on: May 19, 2014, 12:14:10 pm »
0

What's up with waiting two weeks?  Fearing low ratings from a Holiday weekend or something?

Also, very sastisfying to see Lysa fly.  I really did want to hear the words, "Only Cat", though "Only your sister" is perhaps more insulting.  I don't get bothered too much by changes from the book. I think the show is doing an excellent job.  But there are a few lines from the series that stuck with me, so I would really like to hear them said in a visual and dramatic setting (e.g., "Only Cat," "Wherever whores go," Tyrion's line to Jamie about Lancel and Kettleback and Moonboy).  I also wonder if we're going to get to hear Brienne searching for a maid of ten and three. I'm not sure how much that story line is going to change.. looks like it's still going along the same path.  I think in the books she runs into Gendry instead of Hotpie, but I don't think Gendry tipped her off about Arya?  I don't have the books handy at the moment. But it's looking like The Hound's bite is taking the place of the (knife?) wound he got in the books, and Arya will leave him for dead in the next few episodes.  We may get to see Brienne go to the monk's place and see/hear about Gravedigger as well.

Also, Oberyn, so great.  I like that actor a lot.  The scene with Tyrion in the dungeon was one of the best in the series so far, I think.
No, I don't think they discussed Arya. The Hot Pie - Brienne scene was an example of a nice invention by the showrunners, though. It'll be interesting to see how they portray Arya leaving The Hound to die given how they are deepening their friendship with seemingly random scenes every episode. Maisie Williams is an incredible actor, the Braavos stuff is going to be awesome.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #140 on: May 19, 2014, 02:30:41 pm »
0

This was my favorite episode in several weeks, probably since the Purple Wedding. As strong as Peter Dinklage's acting was during the trial, I think he outdid himself this week! The scene with Bronn was touching, and the scene with Oberyn was one of the best in the series.

I also enjoyed all the Hound and Arya stuff.

Spoilers and speculation:
The producers have given Shireen much more to do than in the books, and I was really wondering whether this might signal that Shireen will ultimately sit the throne with Davos as her hand after Stannis like wins but dies in battle along with Melisandre, or something (knowing, as we do, that Martin has told the producers the ending). After last night, I'm worried they are giving Shireen more screen time so we can get to like her a lot before Melisandre and Selyse burn her alive. I really hope that doesn't happen!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #141 on: May 19, 2014, 02:56:05 pm »
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I really really got the vibe Melissandre intends to use Shireen's king's blood somehow. The scene felt really ominous, and also long and otherwise meaningless enough to strongly hint that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #142 on: May 19, 2014, 02:57:32 pm »
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Yeah, Oberyn/Tyrion was great, and I really liked that dialog in the books too. I also don't like that there is no "Only Cat" nor Marillion (and his singing..).

But next episode, that one is going to take the cake, as it features one of the awesomer scene is the books, namely:
EEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 02:59:17 pm by Grujah »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #143 on: May 19, 2014, 03:00:14 pm »
0

I think I should pick up the series again, I am getting curious about this Oberyn-Tyrion scene everyone is raving about so much.

After last night, I'm worried they are giving Shireen more screen time so we can get to like her a lot before Melisandre and Selyse burn her alive. I really hope that doesn't happen!

I really hope this is a bad case of epileptic trees. Do we have any prior indication of Selyse caring that little for her child? She doesn't seem like the motherly kind, but maaaaaaaan, that's cold.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #144 on: May 19, 2014, 03:01:15 pm »
0

I really really got the vibe Melissandre intends to use Shireen's king's blood somehow. The scene felt really ominous, and also long and otherwise meaningless enough to strongly hint that.

Recall also that in A Dance with Dragons, Shireen was highlighted a lot in Melisandre's PoV thoughts.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #145 on: May 19, 2014, 03:03:32 pm »
0

I think I should pick up the series again, I am getting curious about this Oberyn-Tyrion scene everyone is raving about so much.

After last night, I'm worried they are giving Shireen more screen time so we can get to like her a lot before Melisandre and Selyse burn her alive. I really hope that doesn't happen!

I really hope this is a bad case of epileptic trees. Do we have any prior indication of Selyse caring that little for her child? She doesn't seem like the motherly kind, but maaaaaaaan, that's cold.

I mean, she definitely wouldn't do it lightly, but she DID let Melisandre burn her brother. I'm positive Stannis wouldn't allow it under any circumstance, but he might not find out until it's too late.
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #146 on: May 19, 2014, 04:04:01 pm »
0

Her brother had been found guilty of treason and hence sullied (even more than it already was) the name of their family! Sure, burning him alive is barbaric retribution, but she's a zealot. Shireen's only crime is to have survived greyscale!

I don't really see Melisandre burning her, not in a way that makes her seem responsible though, there's no way Stannis would let her stay after pulling out something like this behind his back.
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #147 on: May 19, 2014, 08:04:31 pm »
0

Finally caught up in this series--started a few months ago--after having read the books that are out about two years ago.

I would say that the thing I like the most about the series is the quality in the secondary characters. Obviously the leads are going to be pretty good--some glaring exceptions here--but it is really those secondary characters that make this show amazing. Maester Luwin, Littlefinger, Varys!, The Hound, Meera Reed (not Jojen), all of the Tyrells (especially Margaery!), Ramsey Snow!, Prince Oberyn--finally we got to see some Dornish, can't wait to finally see Dorne--and on and on. A lot of that has to do with the in depth writing on these secondary and even tertiary characters, but the actors are superb as well.

Also going back to the very first episode, was I the only one that was completely hooked by the opening credit sequence? I know some people criticize it, but I thought it was a perfect way to introduce the geography and general tone for the story.

I either haven't noticed--its been a while since reading--or haven't minded the deviations from the book.

Anyways, thought I would jump into the thread so I can see what others think...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #148 on: May 19, 2014, 08:13:46 pm »
0


I either haven't noticed--its been a while since reading--or haven't minded the deviations from the book.


The changes are mostly to make it fit TV format better. Fewer minor characters, a couple changes. Nothing too major. GRRM is part of writing the show, so I think he makes sure it's all pretty close to the books.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #149 on: May 19, 2014, 08:16:44 pm »
0


I either haven't noticed--its been a while since reading--or haven't minded the deviations from the book.


The changes are mostly to make it fit TV format better. Fewer minor characters, a couple changes. Nothing too major. GRRM is part of writing the show, so I think he makes sure it's all pretty close to the books.

Yes and no, though mostly no. He writes one episode a season, and gave them a rough sketch of the ending, and occasionally gives them creative "hints" (ie don't kill off that secondary character who is still alive in the books! They turn out to be pretty important in the future!), but they ignore/change/alter as they see fit. They've killed a character we think is minor he's hinted may matter.

As far as big changes, that's all D&D (the screenwriters) adapting for TV/what they think are the important elements.
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Grujah

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #150 on: May 19, 2014, 09:05:26 pm »
+2

Also going back to the very first episode, was I the only one that was completely hooked by the opening credit sequence? I know some people criticize it, but I thought it was a perfect way to introduce the geography and general tone for the story.

Somebody criticized it? Huh?

I am pretty sure it is generally very well liked for its awesomeness.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 09:14:49 pm by Grujah »
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Twistedarcher

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #151 on: May 19, 2014, 09:12:51 pm »
+1

Braavos looks so cool. I'm excited for more storylines there.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #152 on: June 02, 2014, 01:14:06 am »
+2

Tonight's episode affected me more than the Red Wedding. As a book reader, I knew both were coming. The Red Wedding was more of a, can't wait to see how it comes across on-screen. The duel was, well, I was at least hoping they'd capture the spirit of it.

And they did, almost too well. Tonight's episode was amazing, not in a "fun" way, but in a powerful way. I feel physically ill. It is rare for any story, book, television, or otherwise, to affect me like this, and I'm trying to figure out why. I think something about this specific moment stripped away the desensitization towards violence I feel (and we all feel) in most stories. Seeing and hearing Alarya's (sp) reaction was powerful.

Damn this story.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #153 on: June 02, 2014, 08:52:08 am »
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Holy shit.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #154 on: June 02, 2014, 09:24:05 am »
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That seems to be the general reaction: I knew it was going to happen, but my god I still feel sick
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #155 on: June 02, 2014, 09:35:10 am »
0

Tonight's episode affected me more than the Red Wedding. As a book reader, I knew both were coming. The Red Wedding was more of a, can't wait to see how it comes across on-screen. The duel was, well, I was at least hoping they'd capture the spirit of it.

And they did, almost too well. Tonight's episode was amazing, not in a "fun" way, but in a powerful way. I feel physically ill. It is rare for any story, book, television, or otherwise, to affect me like this, and I'm trying to figure out why. I think something about this specific moment stripped away the desensitization towards violence I feel (and we all feel) in most stories. Seeing and hearing Alarya's (sp) reaction was powerful.

Damn this story.


This is very apt I think.  I left last night's episode without that feeling of awe or amazement, but more feeling disturbed and sickly.  I actually rewatched it 11:30 because I was cooking/eating during the first airing, and the second time I was just as disturbed as the first.  I felt this sense of horror and sadness at watching Oberyn die.  Especially hearing him scream as his eyes were getting crushed in, and hearing Ellaria scream.. it was all very horrible.  I had to turn away the second time.

Plus I was sad because the characterization of Oberyn was just so, so good.

In other news... what's the point of the development between Grey Worm and Missandei?  Do they just want Grey Worm to be a fuller character than in the books?

Development with Sansa was interesting.  I had assumed that Petyr and her worked her thing out together, but it being her idea gives her a lot more development with becoming politically savvy and playing the game.
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #156 on: June 02, 2014, 01:12:04 pm »
0



Also, the brief scene with Arya bursting into laughter was brilliant! Although I am getting antsy for her to go to Bravvos.

Everything else had too little screen time to be super compelling. Felt like the ultimate catch everyone up to date (except for Stannis... shouldn't he be heading to the wall soon?) episode with an incredible battle scene at the end.

The Grey Worm plot line was silly. And I felt Sansa developed a little too fast. Felt more like a character development arc you see in a movie where writers a pressed for time. In a TV show there is time for more subtle development
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #157 on: June 02, 2014, 01:21:17 pm »
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(except for Stannis... shouldn't he be heading to the wall soon?) episode with an incredible battle scene at the end.

He arrives next episode, which will be 100% the Battle at the Wall.
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #158 on: June 02, 2014, 01:36:55 pm »
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While I am truly excited to see Stannis go to the Wall, I feel like the show has done an unusually bad job setting up the big Wall battle. In the book, there are a couple skirmishes spread out over the book. Here, we have just had nine episodes of "they are about to attack! They are so close! Manse can kill us anytime, no doubt! Hey, they attacked a village close by!" The threat just feels overblown at this point, because the buildup has been so bad. Why not a shot of Manse's gigantic army closing in on the Wall at the end of the last episode or the one before it or the one before that? We haven't even seen Manse in forever, I feel like he should have been reintroduced to casual non-book viewers. Also, what's the point of having Tormund and Ygritte's stuff going on, if the attacks on the Wall were just going to happen at the same time? I'm sure it will still be awesome, it's just hard to imagine the battle even happening.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #159 on: June 02, 2014, 01:38:33 pm »
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Complete agreement with what Robz said. It's a real head-scratcher.
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #160 on: June 02, 2014, 01:56:07 pm »
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Haven't caugt up with the series, but it sounds like Oberyn got characterized as much nicer than in the books. While reading the books, he struck me as a villain sort of guy, who happens to get sympathy from the reader because the world he's in is just so [NASTY-WORD!] up. I'd probably put him in the same bag as the Hound, not Tyrion, from what transpires in the books. He's in King's Landing to kill people, and to Hell with everyone and everything else.

Probably the kid abducting and women slapping affects my view on him.
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KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #161 on: June 02, 2014, 06:01:34 pm »
0

Haven't caugt up with the series, but it sounds like Oberyn got characterized as much nicer than in the books. While reading the books, he struck me as a villain sort of guy, who happens to get sympathy from the reader because the world he's in is just so [NASTY-WORD!] up. I'd probably put him in the same bag as the Hound, not Tyrion, from what transpires in the books. He's in King's Landing to kill people, and to Hell with everyone and everything else.

Probably the kid abducting and women slapping affects my view on him.

He didn't seem particularily mean in the books. He isn't around for very long. To me it was more like he was like Jaime before his hand got cut off. Impatient and ready to fight anyone
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #162 on: June 02, 2014, 06:50:09 pm »
+1

Haven't caugt up with the series, but it sounds like Oberyn got characterized as much nicer than in the books. While reading the books, he struck me as a villain sort of guy, who happens to get sympathy from the reader because the world he's in is just so [NASTY-WORD!] up. I'd probably put him in the same bag as the Hound, not Tyrion, from what transpires in the books. He's in King's Landing to kill people, and to Hell with everyone and everything else.

Probably the kid abducting and women slapping affects my view on him.

He didn't seem particularily mean in the books. He isn't around for very long. To me it was more like he was like Jaime before his hand got cut off. Impatient and ready to fight anyone

... and ready to throw kids off windows, amirite? I find your comparison quite spot on!

EDIT: for the sake of detail, what he does "on screen" in the books is fine, aside from poisoning his spear with manticore poison, but seeing who he used that spear against, I can hardly feel upset about it.

It's all the stuff that other people tell he did that is not fine. I already mentioned his way to gain custody of his daughters, but the fact that out of seven children, all of them are female, hints at something creepy. We also have him crippling Willas Tyrell, and overall being a dick to the Tyrells, starting again the hostilities between the two families. And you know, poisoning people left and right.

That's not to say he's not badass, 'coz man if he isn't nobody is. But he is quite the opposite of a heroic figure.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 07:08:19 pm by pacovf »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #163 on: June 02, 2014, 07:20:12 pm »
0

Despite some weak scenes (well, actually just the Gilly stuff), I'd say this was the best episode of the entire series this far.

Loved ALL the Sansa scenes, it's incredible they've transformed her from insufferable to "I can't wait for her to appear again!" so fast, Tyrion delivered the beetle story very well and I like that they are doing stuff like that. I thought Jorah leaving was unbelievable acting from Emilia Clarke and her strongest scene this far, although I somewhat dislike how Barristan doesn't really seem that bad-ass.. I mean, he was smirking during the conversation with Jorah.. and he said he wanted to talk to him man to man before telling Dany, but he just instantly left after telling him he knows, before Jorah had time to say anything?? He almost seems to be avoiding confrontation, which doesn't fit the character in my opinion..

My guess is they are building up Grey Worm for the Harpy to kill (instead of faceless Unsullied). Not the greatest plot development, but I'll take whatever to get Missandei naked. Easily the hottest woman in the show!

The fighting scene was done reasonably well. The choreographics were cool, and Pascal really crushed it. The Mountain was fairly meh, but when the source material is that strong, it's obviously still going to be quite impactful.

Man, it sucks there are only two more episodes and we'll be stuck waiting again.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #164 on: June 02, 2014, 07:22:02 pm »
0

Haven't caugt up with the series, but it sounds like Oberyn got characterized as much nicer than in the books. While reading the books, he struck me as a villain sort of guy, who happens to get sympathy from the reader because the world he's in is just so [NASTY-WORD!] up. I'd probably put him in the same bag as the Hound, not Tyrion, from what transpires in the books. He's in King's Landing to kill people, and to Hell with everyone and everything else.

Probably the kid abducting and women slapping affects my view on him.

He didn't seem particularily mean in the books. He isn't around for very long. To me it was more like he was like Jaime before his hand got cut off. Impatient and ready to fight anyone

... and ready to throw kids off windows, amirite? I find your comparison quite spot on!

EDIT: for the sake of detail, what he does "on screen" in the books is fine, aside from poisoning his spear with manticore poison, but seeing who he used that spear against, I can hardly feel upset about it.

It's all the stuff that other people tell he did that is not fine. I already mentioned his way to gain custody of his daughters, but the fact that out of seven children, all of them are female, hints at something creepy. We also have him crippling Willas Tyrell, and overall being a dick to the Tyrells, starting again the hostilities between the two families. And you know, poisoning people left and right.

That's not to say he's not badass, 'coz man if he isn't nobody is. But he is quite the opposite of a heroic figure.

Yeah, but he's really kind of an antihero.  Not a villain.  Like, he's bad, but he's badass, and you want him to keep being badass. 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #165 on: June 02, 2014, 08:25:06 pm »
+1

There are a couple of things going for making oberyn seem more likable. First, he is an enemy of an enemy (the lannisters) for most readers/watchers, and second, he isn't always well liked which makes him seem more or an underdog.

Definitely a lot of "the end justifies the means" going with people's opinions on him.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #166 on: June 03, 2014, 09:46:54 pm »
0

there are certain things in movies and books that hit me much harder than almost anything else. the end of the fight scene was one of them. if the mountain just killed him, even if it was close, i could probably shrug it off easily. but as it happened, it was so... unnecessary, because oberyn already won. dunno why this makes it that much worse for me, but it does. I might actually have trouble sleeping tonight because of it. just thinking about it makes me wanna cry

it's also the first episode that i'm not going to rewatch right away, cause i really dont want to see it again.

i'm glad the mountain is dead though. and i do think it was one of the best episodes so far.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #167 on: June 04, 2014, 02:53:06 pm »
0

Although I'm not opposed to speed up Sansa becoming a player on her own, I don't like the implications her scene in the last episode is. What the hell did Littlefinger think would happen after he killed Lysa in front of her. It was kinda obvious she would be questioned about it, ad with the Lords having to come up the mountain,l he had more than enough time to develop a story together with Sansa. Also it screws eith the power distribution between Sansa and LF quite a lot.   
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #168 on: June 04, 2014, 03:08:35 pm »
0

Although I'm not opposed to speed up Sansa becoming a player on her own, I don't like the implications her scene in the last episode is. What the hell did Littlefinger think would happen after he killed Lysa in front of her. It was kinda obvious she would be questioned about it, ad with the Lords having to come up the mountain,l he had more than enough time to develop a story together with Sansa. Also it screws eith the power distribution between Sansa and LF quite a lot.   

I think this is not necessarily a problem.  Littlefinger's story was that Lysa committed suicide, and Sansa wasn't there for it.  I'm sure they discussed what he was going to tell them, and since she wasn't involved at all she may not have been called for questioning.  He would have had to act surprised when they called for her, as it would be expected of him.  The only thing he wouldn't have accounted for in this case was for Sansa to reveal a different lie in order to make his more plausible.  Everything else he expected.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #169 on: June 04, 2014, 03:23:00 pm »
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So he thought he could hide the fact she was in the room? Sounds pretty stupid.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #170 on: June 04, 2014, 03:23:13 pm »
0

Although I'm not opposed to speed up Sansa becoming a player on her own, I don't like the implications her scene in the last episode is. What the hell did Littlefinger think would happen after he killed Lysa in front of her. It was kinda obvious she would be questioned about it, ad with the Lords having to come up the mountain,l he had more than enough time to develop a story together with Sansa. Also it screws eith the power distribution between Sansa and LF quite a lot.   

It changes the power distribution, but I think that's fine because I think that's going to happen early in Book 6 anyway. So we saw Sansa at the end of Book 5 plot-wise but with character from early Book 6. Being out-of-sync isn't necessarily a problem (like how Arya is a cold-blooded killer before going to Braavos in the show, which is different but fine in my book).
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #171 on: June 04, 2014, 03:28:42 pm »
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So he thought he could hide the fact she was in the room? Sounds pretty stupid.

Well no one else was there.  Or even if that wasn't part of his story, it's more believable for them to call upon Sansa and him act like he wasn't expecting it or didn't want them to then for him to say "Look ask my niece, she'll tell you I'm innocent."
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #174 on: June 08, 2014, 11:26:19 pm »
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Spoilers for the latest episode to follow:

I don't want to come off as too harshly critical. It was a stunning accomplishment, the battle episode. Very high quality, very well made. Some terrific shots. I loved everything that happened atop the wall, especially, and with the giants. The score was impressive. And unlike the Blackwater, it was very easy to understand what was happening at all times.

In all other ways, however, I would say the Blackwater battle was superior. I think it mostly comes down to character and plotting. I know who Grenn, Edd, and Pyp are because I read the books. Here, we basically only know them because they have had lines now and then. The deaths of some of these people didn't have much emotional weight, given that they aren't fleshed out characters whatsoever. Even Ygritte has been reduced to basically nothing this season, since they've barely shown her. The Blackwater, in contrast, had real stakes for tons of consequential and well-defined characters, so it was ultimately more gripping. Also, it made more narrative sense and told a complete story. The Wall battle was essentially just a battle, and nothing is resolved by the end. Since the writers decided to condense this story to one episode, I really, really thought they were going to wrap the whole thing up. I was annoyed that a certain arrival did not take place, because it seems like this will delay certain events I was looking forward to seeing until the next season. That's fairly grating, given the mega time waste that was Craster's Keep this season.

Also, Jon deciding to confront Manse by himself makes a lot less sense than Thorne pressuring him to do it, as happened in the books. Oh well.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #175 on: June 08, 2014, 11:31:02 pm »
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Grenn and Pip were pretty important after the battle, right? They didn't die in the books, as I recall.. they were the ones sent away to man the other castles, right?  Wonder if they're going to cut some of that out later.

And I think that arrival will happen in the finale.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #176 on: June 08, 2014, 11:44:26 pm »
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Grenn and Pip were pretty important after the battle, right? They didn't die in the books, as I recall.. they were the ones sent away to man the other castles, right?  Wonder if they're going to cut some of that out later.

And I think that arrival will happen in the finale.


They didn't die, but I wouldn't say they were "pretty" important. It's fine, just not very meaningful, to kill them, I think.

I'm quite sure the arrival will happen, but I thought it would happen in this episode, and then Jon would become Lord Commander in episode 10. I think there's almost no way that the next episode manages both those things, given how much they have to do in King's Landing, with Arya, and hopefully with Brienne and Pod (Lady Stoneheart?).
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #177 on: June 09, 2014, 12:22:34 am »
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I actually felt they hit pretty hard.  Especially Pip.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #178 on: June 10, 2014, 04:57:21 pm »
+1

I hate that they chose to spend an entire episode of their limited time to this battle without even resolving it. Obviously not as bad as Craster's Keep, but still.

It was visually effective, and as someone who knows the characters from books, I did feel the deaths. Still, the least fun hour of the show for me this far.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 05:00:10 pm by Eevee »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #179 on: June 10, 2014, 05:13:59 pm »
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Really. I've heard complaints that this episode 9 wasn't "episode 9 enough" in terms of twists, but as far as epic battle sequences go, this was one of my favorites ever, hands down the best I've seen on a tv show. I like that most episodes keep you up to date on a bunch of character arcs but this felt like a fitting almost-culmination of a major arc of this season.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #180 on: June 15, 2014, 10:21:27 pm »
+1

Really disappointed the Tysha conversation didn't happen :(  I was waiting all season for it
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #181 on: June 15, 2014, 10:23:59 pm »
+1

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #182 on: June 15, 2014, 10:36:10 pm »
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I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

Yes!  That too!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #183 on: June 15, 2014, 10:39:01 pm »
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Did Tyrion kill his dear old dad for Father's Day?  (I have read the books, I have not followed the show but I know it is somewhere around that point)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #184 on: June 15, 2014, 10:39:23 pm »
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Oh yeah and Hound/Brienne.  Good change I think.  I assumed the end result would be the same as the books, but I really didn't know.  First time I actually felt like I just did not know the outcome.. I kept thinking she might just kill him (and skip the Gravedigger subplot), or maybe he'd kill her and something crazy would happen.  Anyway, glad Arya is on her way to Bravvos and Hound has an opening for the future.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #185 on: June 15, 2014, 10:39:51 pm »
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Did Tyrion kill his dear old dad for Father's Day?  (I have read the books, I have not followed the show but I know it is somewhere around that point)

Haha, good call.  Yep
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #186 on: June 15, 2014, 11:00:57 pm »
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I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #187 on: June 15, 2014, 11:23:51 pm »
+1

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


But... I want to stand over non-readers' heads and shout "gotcha" when that sick reveal happens. And that's all I care about.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #188 on: June 15, 2014, 11:37:47 pm »
0

But... I want to stand over non-readers' heads and shout "gotcha" when that sick reveal happens. And that's all I care about.

well sure, to an extent most readers do (myself included) and i understand that. i just think that in this example there really isn't much value in the events beyond the 'gotcha'. personally it was one of the things i figured would get written out of the show for simplicity's sake.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #189 on: June 15, 2014, 11:43:07 pm »
0

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


I agree. I was really disappointed that the Brienne plot line took up so many chapters, and that's how it ended. I would have been fine with all of that being cut out of the books honestly.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #190 on: June 15, 2014, 11:46:43 pm »
0

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


I agree. I was really disappointed that the Brienne plot line took up so many chapters, and that's how it ended. I would have been fine with all of that being cut out of the books honestly.

Ahem, ended?  Her plot line isn't over! Shit is going down with Lady Stoneheart.

I, for one, will be very disappointed if she is cut out.  I love the idea of a crazy undead lady brutally dishing out pure, unadulterated justice.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #191 on: June 15, 2014, 11:48:07 pm »
0

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


I agree. I was really disappointed that the Brienne plot line took up so many chapters, and that's how it ended. I would have been fine with all of that being cut out of the books honestly.

Ahem, ended?  Her plot line isn't over! Shit is going down with Lady Stoneheart.

I, for one, will be very disappointed if she is cut out.  I love the idea of a crazy undead lady brutally dishing out pure, unadulterated justice.


I agree with WW. The good news: I highly doubt she'll get cut, given that her return is the big thing that most fans want at this point. I think they are just dragging it out to keep us hooked and fuming.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #192 on: June 15, 2014, 11:55:32 pm »
0

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


I agree. I was really disappointed that the Brienne plot line took up so many chapters, and that's how it ended. I would have been fine with all of that being cut out of the books honestly.

Ahem, ended?  Her plot line isn't over! Shit is going down with Lady Stoneheart.

I, for one, will be very disappointed if she is cut out.  I love the idea of a crazy undead lady brutally dishing out pure, unadulterated justice.


I agree with WW. The good news: I highly doubt she'll get cut, given that her return is the big thing that most fans want at this point. I think they are just dragging it out to keep us hooked and fuming.

I mean, we are left (at the end of A Dance With Dragons) with Brienne and Jaime going off to face Lady Stoneheart's justice (presumably).  The Imp survived her sisters justice, I am looking forward to Jaime surviving hers.  So I can't really see how they can cut her out.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #193 on: June 16, 2014, 12:20:49 am »
+1

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


I agree. I was really disappointed that the Brienne plot line took up so many chapters, and that's how it ended. I would have been fine with all of that being cut out of the books honestly.

Ahem, ended?  Her plot line isn't over! Shit is going down with Lady Stoneheart.

I, for one, will be very disappointed if she is cut out.  I love the idea of a crazy undead lady brutally dishing out pure, unadulterated justice.



I know it's a fantasy series and all that, and there's tons of this stuff already with Melisandre and Beric and the White Walkers and whatnot, but every time there's something new introduced in this vein, I was a little frustrated. I remember reading it, and basically thinking to myself, "Oh, that's cool. Catelyn is still alive, because of magic." I know it's pretty ridiculous to think that when there's a decent amount of the red magic going around, but I wish there was less of it. It made Jon Snow's death less impactful, for example, because I'm fully expecting him to be brought back to life. It just makes a lot of the moments that should be really powerful (such as Jon dying, which is huge as he's one of the biggest characters in the season) less powerful, as I am fully expecting him to be brought back to life "because magic". There's no feeling of closure with any of the deaths anymore, because who knows what could happen -- which is one of the reasons I really dislike Lady Stoneheart and would be glad to not see the storyline.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #194 on: June 16, 2014, 12:50:42 am »
+2

I know it's a fantasy series and all that, and there's tons of this stuff already with Melisandre and Beric and the White Walkers and whatnot, but every time there's something new introduced in this vein, I was a little frustrated. I remember reading it, and basically thinking to myself, "Oh, that's cool. Catelyn is still alive, because of magic." I know it's pretty ridiculous to think that when there's a decent amount of the red magic going around, but I wish there was less of it. It made Jon Snow's death less impactful, for example, because I'm fully expecting him to be brought back to life. It just makes a lot of the moments that should be really powerful (such as Jon dying, which is huge as he's one of the biggest characters in the season) less powerful, as I am fully expecting him to be brought back to life "because magic". There's no feeling of closure with any of the deaths anymore, because who knows what could happen -- which is one of the reasons I really dislike Lady Stoneheart and would be glad to not see the storyline.

I feel like it's possible GRRM using the lady stoneheart resurrection as a sort of take that to Tolkien. Gandalf dies and comes back 'changed' into a white wizard, but there's no real change. Gandalf's death has no real meaning since there was no real sacrifice. GRRM wanted to parallel that but put his own morbid twist on the changing that happens. Cat comes back, but not as the same Cat. LSH is a vengeful shadow. As it pertains to Jon, I feel like if he does come back (and it's super likely he will) the lesson with uncat seems to be he won't come back exactly the same. So the mystery isn't if he'll come back, but how he will and who he'll be.

EDIT: Also, are all these spoiler tags needed? The subject line says spoilers and as far as I can tell most everyone posting here has read the books. And if you haven't, well there's very little useful discussion that happens outside the spoiler tags anyway.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 12:53:04 am by jonts26 »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #195 on: June 16, 2014, 01:21:09 am »
0

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


I agree. I was really disappointed that the Brienne plot line took up so many chapters, and that's how it ended. I would have been fine with all of that being cut out of the books honestly.

Ahem, ended?  Her plot line isn't over! Shit is going down with Lady Stoneheart.

I, for one, will be very disappointed if she is cut out.  I love the idea of a crazy undead lady brutally dishing out pure, unadulterated justice.



I know it's a fantasy series and all that, and there's tons of this stuff already with Melisandre and Beric and the White Walkers and whatnot, but every time there's something new introduced in this vein, I was a little frustrated. I remember reading it, and basically thinking to myself, "Oh, that's cool. Catelyn is still alive, because of magic." I know it's pretty ridiculous to think that when there's a decent amount of the red magic going around, but I wish there was less of it. It made Jon Snow's death less impactful, for example, because I'm fully expecting him to be brought back to life. It just makes a lot of the moments that should be really powerful (such as Jon dying, which is huge as he's one of the biggest characters in the season) less powerful, as I am fully expecting him to be brought back to life "because magic". There's no feeling of closure with any of the deaths anymore, because who knows what could happen -- which is one of the reasons I really dislike Lady Stoneheart and would be glad to not see the storyline.


I had the opposite reaction. It says it's a fantasy series, but there is so little magic in the beginning. And up until LSH, the magic just didn't seem to matter much. It plays a role in Stannis's victory over Renly, and has some relevance to Daeny, but I don't know, it wasn't like a gamechanger for anyone really important, until Catelyn Stark dies and is brought back to life. I sort of felt like it the punchline was, "Hey, you know this is a fantasy story, right?" And I liked that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #196 on: June 16, 2014, 09:26:30 am »
0

Did I miss something or did they cut Cold Hands?

Edit: They also cut Tysha/"She fucked Lancel, and Cattleblack and probably the Moon Boy too", which kinda sucks, as it leaves Tyrion and Jaime in good relations, instead of what was in the books.

A great change is the Brienne/Hound scene, it makes what happens later at the Quite Isle much more meaningful.

And I also hopped the with show Lady SH, but, oh well, we'll just have to hang those Frays at some other time, I guess.

Oh, and next season gets Wyman Manderly, right? That's gonna be sweeeeeet! The North remembers.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 10:09:19 am by Grujah »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #197 on: June 16, 2014, 11:04:15 am »
0

Did I miss something or did they cut Cold Hands?

Edit: They also cut Tysha/"She fucked Lancel, and Cattleblack and probably the Moon Boy too", which kinda sucks, as it leaves Tyrion and Jaime in good relations, instead of what was in the books.

A great change is the Brienne/Hound scene, it makes what happens later at the Quite Isle much more meaningful.

And I also hopped the with show Lady SH, but, oh well, we'll just have to hang those Frays at some other time, I guess.

Oh, and next season gets Wyman Manderly, right? That's gonna be sweeeeeet! The North remembers.

Looks like they definitely cut Coldhands. I can live with that, but I need me some Stoneheart.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #198 on: June 16, 2014, 11:47:22 am »
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Quote
And if you haven't, well there's very little useful discussion that happens outside the spoiler tags anyway.

i haven't read the books, and i appreciate the spoilers, though for me it would be better if there were either 2 different kinds of spoilers or if only book knowledge (i.e. stuff that hasn't happened yet in the show) was put in spoilers. but you can't guarantee that everyone who looks in this thread is even up to date with the show.

KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #199 on: June 16, 2014, 01:43:43 pm »
+1

Did I miss something or did they cut Cold Hands?

Edit: They also cut Tysha/"She fucked Lancel, and Cattleblack and probably the Moon Boy too", which kinda sucks, as it leaves Tyrion and Jaime in good relations, instead of what was in the books.

A great change is the Brienne/Hound scene, it makes what happens later at the Quite Isle much more meaningful.

And I also hopped the with show Lady SH, but, oh well, we'll just have to hang those Frays at some other time, I guess.

Oh, and next season gets Wyman Manderly, right? That's gonna be sweeeeeet! The North remembers.

Looks like they definitely cut Coldhands. I can live with that, but I need me some Stoneheart.

Lady Stoneheart doesn't come in till end of book 4 though when she hangs Brienne, well there's like 1 epilogue in book 3 right with her right? Still it's essentially book 4 and introducing a new character at the end of a season is not great for a TV show. I doubt they can cut her.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #200 on: June 16, 2014, 01:49:33 pm »
0

Did I miss something or did they cut Cold Hands?

Edit: They also cut Tysha/"She fucked Lancel, and Cattleblack and probably the Moon Boy too", which kinda sucks, as it leaves Tyrion and Jaime in good relations, instead of what was in the books.

A great change is the Brienne/Hound scene, it makes what happens later at the Quite Isle much more meaningful.

And I also hopped the with show Lady SH, but, oh well, we'll just have to hang those Frays at some other time, I guess.

Oh, and next season gets Wyman Manderly, right? That's gonna be sweeeeeet! The North remembers.

Looks like they definitely cut Coldhands. I can live with that, but I need me some Stoneheart.

Lady Stoneheart doesn't come in till end of book 4 though when she hangs Brienne, well there's like 1 epilogue in book 3 right with her right? Still it's essentially book 4 and introducing a new character at the end of a season is not great for a TV show. I doubt they can cut her.

She doesn't hang Brienne!

I hope they introduce Season 5 with the Lady Stoneheart Epilogue where they hang the Frey that goes to pay the ransom. That would be an awesome season opening.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #201 on: June 16, 2014, 01:58:03 pm »
+1

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


I agree. I was really disappointed that the Brienne plot line took up so many chapters, and that's how it ended. I would have been fine with all of that being cut out of the books honestly.

Ahem, ended?  Her plot line isn't over! Shit is going down with Lady Stoneheart.

I, for one, will be very disappointed if she is cut out.  I love the idea of a crazy undead lady brutally dishing out pure, unadulterated justice.



I know it's a fantasy series and all that, and there's tons of this stuff already with Melisandre and Beric and the White Walkers and whatnot, but every time there's something new introduced in this vein, I was a little frustrated. I remember reading it, and basically thinking to myself, "Oh, that's cool. Catelyn is still alive, because of magic." I know it's pretty ridiculous to think that when there's a decent amount of the red magic going around, but I wish there was less of it. It made Jon Snow's death less impactful, for example, because I'm fully expecting him to be brought back to life. It just makes a lot of the moments that should be really powerful (such as Jon dying, which is huge as he's one of the biggest characters in the season) less powerful, as I am fully expecting him to be brought back to life "because magic". There's no feeling of closure with any of the deaths anymore, because who knows what could happen -- which is one of the reasons I really dislike Lady Stoneheart and would be glad to not see the storyline.


I see this sentiment a lot, and I don't really agree with it.  "Is (s)he really dead?" is a running theme of the series, with or without magic.  Arya getting hit in the chaos of the red wedding, The Hound's fate, Brienne's fate, Bran Falling, Jojen and Meera not being around any more, Jon, etc., were all moments where you had to consider the character possibly dying at the end (or middle) of the appropriate chapter.  When I read the Red Wedding, I wasn't even convinced Robb Catelyn had died until chapters later. (Maybe I was in denial.)

People coming back to life, though.. it's not like revival in a video game.  Those that come back---Drogo, Catelyn, Gregor, Beric---are all not really themselves when they "come back."  Only Beric is remotely like his old self.  Drogo was braindead, Catelyn had no thoughts except murderous revenge, and Gregor is, well, probably without a head.  I don't really understand how this cheapens their death at all. 

I also didn't get the impression that Jon died.  So I don't think he'll be "brought back" in the same way as others.

At any rate, stuff coming back to life has been a theme from the very beginning; from the prologue, even. 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #202 on: June 16, 2014, 06:13:08 pm »
0

I think they really really botched Tyrion, oh my god! How could they skip the conversation with Jaime!? His actions make no sense now!!

The Bran-scene made me cringe, but when you think about it, that's pretty much how it went in the books.. at first reading it made me cringe ttoo, but then I sort of pushed the feeling aside, telling myself "well, this is something mystical, I'm not supposed to get it".

The fight between Sandor and Brienne got super gore, wow. I found myself looking at the screen between my fingers at the end.

I'm not too upset about us not getting LSH (yet). I mean, if this was all we were getting from her in the books, I would prefer her never to have been included. Her, Coldhands and the shadow baby that killed Renly were my three most (and only) hated characters in the books (although I'm hoping Coldhands get a better explanation in future books). I'm definitely in the "could do with little less magic" - group.

Man, they wrapped up so many storylines so neatly though. I absolutely loved the Children-theme, just great writing.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #203 on: June 16, 2014, 06:34:22 pm »
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One more thing, what's up with the guards at the Eyrie just letting The Hound walk with one of the last living Starks? Seems like a pretty gigantic plot hole.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #204 on: June 16, 2014, 06:52:14 pm »
0

One more thing, what's up with the guards at the Eyrie just letting The Hound walk with one of the last living Starks? Seems like a pretty gigantic plot hole.

Wow, hadn't even thought about that. Probably the only thing I'm actually upset about. I'm fine with all the other changes, really. I also like what WW's saying about LS, "deaths", and the like.

Also - more magic!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #205 on: June 16, 2014, 06:58:10 pm »
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If the weirwood paste Bran was eating to awake his powers was actually made of Jojen, him dying this way could have been a major change, especially if they need Meera alive or killed some other way. Making Meera kill him was very effective though.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #206 on: June 16, 2014, 07:01:41 pm »
0

If the weirwood paste Bran was eating to awake his powers was actually made of Jojen, him dying this way could have been a major change, especially if they need Meera alive or killed some other way. Making Meera kill him was very effective though.

I actually took his death as confirmation of Jojen paste - it'd be so very, very easily for him to just eat paste in the show that's portrayed as magic, and that's that. Sure it'd be a change, but I don't feel like it'd be a big change.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #207 on: June 16, 2014, 07:02:21 pm »
0

If Ygritte's cold-blooded killing was highlighted in the show, Mance sure was taken to different direction. Showing the humanitarian side of him like that instantly made him one of the most heroic characters in the entire show, which is interesting because I don't see Free Folk as particularly rewarding to root for.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #208 on: June 16, 2014, 07:03:25 pm »
0

If the weirwood paste Bran was eating to awake his powers was actually made of Jojen, him dying this way could have been a major change, especially if they need Meera alive or killed some other way. Making Meera kill him was very effective though.

I actually took his death as confirmation of Jojen paste - it'd be so very, very easily for him to just eat paste in the show that's portrayed as magic, and that's that. Sure it'd be a change, but I don't feel like it'd be a big change.

If true, definitely takes the already creepy storyline to a whole new level of darkness, no?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #209 on: June 16, 2014, 07:08:51 pm »
0

If the weirwood paste Bran was eating to awake his powers was actually made of Jojen, him dying this way could have been a major change, especially if they need Meera alive or killed some other way. Making Meera kill him was very effective though.

I actually took his death as confirmation of Jojen paste - it'd be so very, very easily for him to just eat paste in the show that's portrayed as magic, and that's that. Sure it'd be a change, but I don't feel like it'd be a big change.

If true, definitely takes the already creepy storyline to a whole new level of darkness, no?

I'm a fan of fan theories that Bloodraven/Three-Eyed Crow is a bad guy, so yes, but I'd enjoy it.
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #210 on: June 16, 2014, 07:31:16 pm »
+1

If Ygritte's cold-blooded killing was highlighted in the show, Mance sure was taken to different direction. Showing the humanitarian side of him like that instantly made him one of the most heroic characters in the entire show, which is interesting because I don't see Free Folk as particularly rewarding to root for.

Really? I find them among the MORE root-worthy factions. They have understandable and relatable goals: Get south of the Wall so that zombies don't kill them. And despite being barbarians they are sort of honorable and even trustworthy. And their leaders, Mance, Tormund, and Val, are all fairly awesome.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #211 on: June 16, 2014, 07:37:17 pm »
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True, and while I love them, especially Tormund and Mance, there is no one else likable, and the goal they seek to attain (not dying) is not the most interesting compared to stuff like Dorne's quest for revenge or Varys running his schemes. To me, the main pull in the series is the politics and relations between people, and Free Folk's struggle to live doesn't have much of that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #212 on: June 17, 2014, 12:26:28 pm »
0

Also, something I noticed.  Charles Dance is just awesome.  In the last scene with Tyrion where he says, "You are my son," you can see a subtle twitching of the facial features, indicating a slight disgust at having to say it.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #213 on: June 17, 2014, 12:27:22 pm »
0

If the weirwood paste Bran was eating to awake his powers was actually made of Jojen, him dying this way could have been a major change, especially if they need Meera alive or killed some other way. Making Meera kill him was very effective though.

I actually took his death as confirmation of Jojen paste - it'd be so very, very easily for him to just eat paste in the show that's portrayed as magic, and that's that. Sure it'd be a change, but I don't feel like it'd be a big change.

I did as well. I wonder if that means Meera isn't paste, too.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #214 on: June 17, 2014, 12:32:35 pm »
0

One more thing, what's up with the guards at the Eyrie just letting The Hound walk with one of the last living Starks? Seems like a pretty gigantic plot hole.

Yeah, I had a problem with that.  On the other hand, the Eyrie is like closed off from everything and every one.  Lysa basically cut the Eyrie off from the world and refused to join in any conflicts.  They also might not consider Clegane an outlaw.  Certainly if word had gotten to Petyr, he'd snatch Arya up.  But it takes like all day just to travel up to the castle.  Clegane has an argument to leave, too.. she has no family in the Eyrie any longer, so it's his "duty" or whatever to take her elsewhere.


So, it's slightly plausible. 
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #215 on: June 17, 2014, 12:36:38 pm »
0

If the weirwood paste Bran was eating to awake his powers was actually made of Jojen, him dying this way could have been a major change, especially if they need Meera alive or killed some other way. Making Meera kill him was very effective though.

I actually took his death as confirmation of Jojen paste - it'd be so very, very easily for him to just eat paste in the show that's portrayed as magic, and that's that. Sure it'd be a change, but I don't feel like it'd be a big change.

If true, definitely takes the already creepy storyline to a whole new level of darkness, no?

I'm a fan of fan theories that Bloodraven/Three-Eyed Crow is a bad guy, so yes, but I'd enjoy it.

Eh, everyone is a "bad guy" to someone else.. that's kind of the point.  I think of Bloodraven as a kind of third faction (or fourth, or fifth, or hundredth).  He certainly must have a reason for aiding Bran other than just being a nice dude. 
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #216 on: June 17, 2014, 01:54:36 pm »
0

Eh, everyone is a "bad guy" to someone else.. that's kind of the point.  I think of Bloodraven as a kind of third faction (or fourth, or fifth, or hundredth).  He certainly must have a reason for aiding Bran other than just being a nice dude.

Yes, I obviously get that. Even within the show, there are some people whose success would probably be a bad thing (Dany invading and bringing a wave of genocide and slaughter along with her (edge case: dragons might be needed to fight the Others)), etc. That's what I mean.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #217 on: June 17, 2014, 02:16:45 pm »
0

Us not having anything new on the series for 10 months is enormous levels of suckitude. Does anyone have any rough idea when WoW is scheduled to come out?
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #218 on: June 17, 2014, 02:17:36 pm »
0

Us not having anything new on the series for 10 months is enormous levels of suckitude. Does anyone have any rough idea when WoW is scheduled to come out?

2015 at the earliest. In all likelihood, Season 5 will come out before Book 6.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #219 on: June 17, 2014, 02:17:50 pm »
0

Us not having anything new on the series for 10 months is enormous levels of suckitude. Does anyone have any rough idea when WoW is scheduled to come out?

Not a day after 2029.
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KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #220 on: June 17, 2014, 10:04:46 pm »
0

Us not having anything new on the series for 10 months is enormous levels of suckitude. Does anyone have any rough idea when WoW is scheduled to come out?

2015 at the earliest. In all likelihood, Season 5 will come out before Book 6.

But they still have books 4 and 5 to cover. So not too many spoilers will be shown in the shows I don't think.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #221 on: June 17, 2014, 10:11:47 pm »
0

But they still have books 4 and 5 to cover. So not too many spoilers will be shown in the shows I don't think.

Not really.

Bran: Book 5
Sansa: Book 6
Dany: Book 5
Arya: Book 4/5
Tyrion: Book 5
Cersei/Jaime: Book 4
John: Book 5

(there could be some small errors here)

Really, only the King's Landing plotline will be at the start of Book 4.
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #222 on: June 17, 2014, 11:16:13 pm »
0

The Wall plotline is the one lagging behind significantly. There's some significant Jon/Sam/Stannis stuff at the end of Book 3 that we haven't seen yet. On the other hand, Sansa and Bran are both pretty much beyond what even Book 5 covers.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #223 on: June 17, 2014, 11:22:25 pm »
0

The Wall plotline is the one lagging behind significantly. There's some significant Jon/Sam/Stannis stuff at the end of Book 3 that we haven't seen yet. On the other hand, Sansa and Bran are both pretty much beyond what even Book 5 covers.

That's not quite true; Sansa and Bran are both about halfway through book 4/5. (That said, they each only have like three chapters in book 4/5, so that doesn't leave very much.)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #224 on: June 17, 2014, 11:23:18 pm »
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(edge case: dragons might be needed to fight the Others)

That's, uh, not an edge case
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #225 on: June 18, 2014, 09:19:33 am »
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I kinda hated those last 2 episodes.

WTF no Tysha reveal????
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #226 on: June 18, 2014, 10:10:30 am »
0

The Wall plotline is the one lagging behind significantly. There's some significant Jon/Sam/Stannis stuff at the end of Book 3 that we haven't seen yet. On the other hand, Sansa and Bran are both pretty much beyond what even Book 5 covers.

That's not quite true; Sansa and Bran are both about halfway through book 4/5. (That said, they each only have like three chapters in book 4/5, so that doesn't leave very much.)

Good call on the Wall, Robz. Duh.

Bran has a little bit more of 5 to go, but Sansa is in Book 6 in my opinion. There's no way we're going to see Harry the Heir, Lords Declarant, etc. with that final scene we had where she reveals herself and protects Littlefinger. It's my impression that scene is their adaptation/change to get to the same place things will be at the end of the Heir/Declarant subplot (as in, I would not be surprised if Book 6 started with her publicly revealing herself in order to etc. etc. etc.)
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #227 on: June 18, 2014, 12:40:51 pm »
0

This reddit conversation just made me laugh out loud for some reason, even though it's probably not even meant to be funny:
Quote
and why didn't Brienne show Arya the direwolf bread that Hot Pie made?
--I think they ate it. It'd be pretty moldy by then.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/28fd1q/spoilers_all_show_watchers_are_not_stupid/ciajch6
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 12:42:24 pm by Watno »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #228 on: June 18, 2014, 01:57:59 pm »
+3

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/28fd1q/spoilers_all_show_watchers_are_not_stupid

I had to unsub from /r/asoiaf because of posts and comment threads like that one. It's become nothing but bitching about every change. The show is an adaptation of an incredibly long and detailed book series. A lot of stuff is going to be cut. A lot of minor stuff, and a handful of more major things as well. TV is a different medium than print. It has its own strengths and limitations. Things are going to be changed, added, condensed, whatever. The strength of an adaptation is not in how closely it follows the source material, but how well it stands on it's own, apart from the source. There's nothing worse than an adaptation which only makes sense when you've read the books. When critiquing the show, you do so in the confines of the show canon, not the book canon. The show isn't perfect and there are plenty of issues you can discuss, but e.g. having 200 posts about changing 'only cat' to 'your sister' is really quite obnoxious. If people are just looking for a scene by scene, line by line retelling of the books, well just reread the books.

And I don't even want to get started on the whole LSH thing. I do think she serves a purpose in the books. But her role so far hasn't exactly been huge. If the show cut her all together, there would be a small hole in the plot that you could fill in any number of ways quite easily.
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #229 on: June 18, 2014, 03:08:38 pm »
0

Some VERY SPOILERY commentary on the lack of Stoneheart:

These are basically my feelings exactly:

"I am sure I could spin either of those reasons off into a long cultural studies-ish essay about the female body, Catelyn, women antiheroes, and the need for a rich tapestry of femininity on television. But instead I will be honest and say: I just really, really, want to watch a show which has Lady Stoneheart in it. As a fan, and someone who just wants to enjoy something."

http://morningafter.gawker.com/why-no-lady-stoneheart-game-of-thrones-1592747748?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #230 on: June 18, 2014, 03:23:29 pm »
0

Some VERY SPOILERY commentary on the lack of Stoneheart:

These are basically my feelings exactly:

"I am sure I could spin either of those reasons off into a long cultural studies-ish essay about the female body, Catelyn, women antiheroes, and the need for a rich tapestry of femininity on television. But instead I will be honest and say: I just really, really, want to watch a show which has Lady Stoneheart in it. As a fan, and someone who just wants to enjoy something."

http://morningafter.gawker.com/why-no-lady-stoneheart-game-of-thrones-1592747748?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow


Plus, you know, live Catelyn sucked so much.. easily one of my least favorite literary characters ever.  But dead Catelyn, man, that chick is awesome.  Throughout all of Seasons 1 and 2 I was just waiting for her to die so she could come back.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #231 on: June 18, 2014, 03:32:24 pm »
0

...

I think you have look at it in a more differentiated way. For example I don't care much about the words Littlefinger uses, LSH not appearing (yet) orthe Missandei-GreyWorm-relationship people seem to be getting worked up about. On the other hand, I'm quite unhappy with the reveal that Tysha wasn't actually a whore and the lack of any reason for part of the storyline to make sense.
In either case, I think "The book canon handles this plotline differently than the show canon and I like the way the book does it better" is perfectly valid criticism of the show.
Even if it wasn't possible for the show to handle stuff "better" (which I don't believe is the case for most things), disliking the show for not doing so is perfectly reasonable, as is being unhappy that the show caters to a potentially larger audience that doesn't include you instead of a small one that your part of.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #232 on: June 18, 2014, 03:43:16 pm »
0

The Tysha thing is a very valid disagreement, I believe, because you don't feel for Tyrion as much without that.  He still has a reason to go to the tower of the hand in the show, but it's not as strong.  And he's not as emotionally crushed.  Despite everything that happened, he was still very protective of his family before Jaime confessed to him.  As much as he always maintained hatred, the "family is more important than anything" dogma of Tywin was deeply ingrained.  The truth about Tysha was the ultimate betrayal, and this particular drove him to seek Tywin out.  Shae was just icing---he already knew she had betrayed him.

Plus it paves a way for a sort of self-destructive and despairing attitude for the next parts of his story.

So this is a case where it's not just that the show was different, but that it doesn't stand on its own as well.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #233 on: June 18, 2014, 04:14:33 pm »
0

Some VERY SPOILERY commentary on the lack of Stoneheart:

These are basically my feelings exactly:

"I am sure I could spin either of those reasons off into a long cultural studies-ish essay about the female body, Catelyn, women antiheroes, and the need for a rich tapestry of femininity on television. But instead I will be honest and say: I just really, really, want to watch a show which has Lady Stoneheart in it. As a fan, and someone who just wants to enjoy something."

http://morningafter.gawker.com/why-no-lady-stoneheart-game-of-thrones-1592747748?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow


Plus, you know, live Catelyn sucked so much.. easily one of my least favorite literary characters ever.  But dead Catelyn, man, that chick is awesome.  Throughout all of Seasons 1 and 2 I was just waiting for her to die so she could come back.

I just do not get this. Catelyn was one of my favorite characters. LS is...well, I enjoy disliking her, so I'm glad she's in the story, but she's not my favorite by any means.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #234 on: June 18, 2014, 04:21:56 pm »
0

I just really didn't like Catelyn.  I mean yes it was good she was in the story, but I disliked her.  She caused all kinds of problems and went on and on about her children... and she was mean to Jon, too.  Whereas just the notion of LS existing is cool. 
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #235 on: June 18, 2014, 04:26:20 pm »
+2

People hate Catelyn and I just don't get it. She's great in all incarnations, and Michelle Fairley did some of the best work on the show of all.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #236 on: June 18, 2014, 04:31:48 pm »
+1

...

I think you have look at it in a more differentiated way. For example I don't care much about the words Littlefinger uses, LSH not appearing (yet) orthe Missandei-GreyWorm-relationship people seem to be getting worked up about. On the other hand, I'm quite unhappy with the reveal that Tysha wasn't actually a whore and the lack of any reason for part of the storyline to make sense.

I don't understand how that part of the storyline doesn't make sense without Tysha. Tywin has been crapping all over tyrion his entire life. Tyrion hates tywin. There was a big speech about it and everything.

Quote
In either case, I think "The book canon handles this plotline differently than the show canon and I like the way the book does it better" is perfectly valid criticism of the show.
Even if it wasn't possible for the show to handle stuff "better" (which I don't believe is the case for most things), disliking the show for not doing so is perfectly reasonable, as is being unhappy that the show caters to a potentially larger audience that doesn't include you instead of a small one that your part of.

I'm not saying you can't make comparisons from book to show. Of course you can, and should. You can certainly say 'I think the show would be better if X', where X is from the book. X can be anything really. For instance, I think the portrayal of stannis in the show is weaker than that in the books. We could discuss details if you want. But there's a difference between that and most of what I've seen posted. People are raging about these minor points. LSH's role in the story so far is minor. Tysha is minor. The sub has become nothing but asoiaf book apologists that can't see the story told in any way which disagrees with their preconceived notions of how the plot should work.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #237 on: June 18, 2014, 04:36:41 pm »
0

People hate Catelyn and I just don't get it. She's great in all incarnations, and Michelle Fairley did some of the best work on the show of all.

Well, I think Michelle Fairley was perfect, as she made me feel the same way about the character as I did in the books, maybe even to a greater extent.
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jonts26

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #238 on: June 18, 2014, 04:39:26 pm »
+2

The Tysha thing is a very valid disagreement, I believe, because you don't feel for Tyrion as much without that.  He still has a reason to go to the tower of the hand in the show, but it's not as strong.  And he's not as emotionally crushed.  Despite everything that happened, he was still very protective of his family before Jaime confessed to him.  As much as he always maintained hatred, the "family is more important than anything" dogma of Tywin was deeply ingrained.  The truth about Tysha was the ultimate betrayal, and this particular drove him to seek Tywin out.  Shae was just icing---he already knew she had betrayed him.

Plus it paves a way for a sort of self-destructive and despairing attitude for the next parts of his story.

So this is a case where it's not just that the show was different, but that it doesn't stand on its own as well.

If you can't feel for tyrion without the tysha backstory, then I don't know what to tell you. We had beautifully acted scenes of him on trial, of him talking to oberyn, etc. The rest of what you said is just projecing your book based notions on the show. Tyrion still values family above all else? The guy who has threatened his sister and threatened and assaulted his nephew? Even if that was true, why couldnt he have 'snapped' while in prison? After oberyn dies and his father sentences him to death? After the kangaroo court of a trial? See these are the kinds of justifications you would try to think of if it was presented this way in the book, but because it disagrees with how the book does it, you just say it's worse and have to talk about how much worse it is. I think the tysha backstory is heartbreaking and fantastic and all that. But it's just a drop in the puddle of asoiaf. Maybe the show would have been better with it in. Maybe not. They'd have to build up the tysha backstory. So that means they'd have to cut other scenes. There's only so much they can fit in there.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #239 on: June 18, 2014, 04:52:52 pm »
+1

So the point is is that, in the show, once he's sprung from prison, he's elated that he's escaping.  He had given up and now he has hope again.  He even has a heartfelt goodbye with Jaime.  The sudden change to anger was a little unnatural.  It's like he had to stop and remember, oh hey, I should take care of some business before I leave.  The Tysha story explains why he's feeling angry at that moment.  (Yes, he has plenty reason to feel angry at any time in his life, but in the show nothing provoked it right then.)  After his talk with Jaime in the books, he's angry, he's hurt; he wanted vindication and he doesn't care about anything else.

The part about Tyrion valuing family is maybe only from book Tyrion.  It's hard to keep the two separate in memory. 

In general I agree with you that "hey this adaptation did this differently and therefore it must be worse" is poor logic.  It's hard to judge in this situation because I can't see the show from a position of not having read the books.  However, I do think here that his motivation was not as compelling. 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #240 on: June 18, 2014, 04:58:12 pm »
0

I think Tyrion's motivations still make sense plenty without Tysha, it was just a bit unfortunate to lose his Tysha motivation, going forward. I liked him speculating about where/whether he might find her. This was not a change that really upset me, however.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #241 on: June 18, 2014, 05:02:05 pm »
+1

Am I forgetting how big a character LSH was? She wasn't really on my radar much at all. She appeared only a couple of times, right? Why is there so much love for her? I just don't get why this is a big deal to so many people.

I care much less about the exclusion of Tysha than I do about the Jaime/Tyrion parting being completely changed. I don't know where it's leading, or if they'll ever meet again, but it bugged me that this was changed. Tysha I couldn't really care about, Shae serves the same purpose.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #242 on: June 18, 2014, 05:19:03 pm »
0

It doesn't really make sense for Tyrion to get mad when Tywin calls Shae a whore.
And they actually DID build up the Tysha storyline.

Also, with Tyrion pretty much permanently thiking about Tysha in book 5, this surely isn't minor.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #243 on: June 18, 2014, 05:20:36 pm »
0

I think Tyrion's motivations still make sense plenty without Tysha, it was just a bit unfortunate to lose his Tysha motivation, going forward. I liked him speculating about where/whether he might find her. This was not a change that really upset me, however.
Without the Tysha modivation, Tyrion loses half his lines!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #244 on: June 18, 2014, 06:06:43 pm »
+2

Also, with Tyrion pretty much permanently thinking about Tysha in book 5, this surely isn't minor.

It seems difficult to really display thoughts on the screen. 

Also would explain this:
They also cut Tysha/"She fucked Lancel, and Cattleblack and probably the Moon Boy too",

How can they really display him thinking about that throughout the following seasons?

You can add extra dialogue about stuff (they could have Jaime talking his thoughts to Ser Ilyn as Jaime practices with him), or do something.  But my point is, how do you make that into the TV show?  It is simple to display a characters thoughts in a book, but to do it on screen is another matter entirely.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #245 on: June 18, 2014, 06:54:14 pm »
0

I think going around asking people "Where do whores go?" is pretty indicative of Tyrions thoughts.

Edit: Anyway, even if there was no other way to handle this, that doesn't mean I have to like it.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 07:03:27 pm by Watno »
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #246 on: June 18, 2014, 08:36:18 pm »
0

Am I forgetting how big a character LSH was? She wasn't really on my radar much at all. She appeared only a couple of times, right? Why is there so much love for her? I just don't get why this is a big deal to so many people.

It's just COOL. We really don't know how important she is at this point, though. So you're right about that.
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #247 on: June 22, 2014, 11:22:12 pm »
0

Man that secret episode only for HBO GO subscribers was awesome! Totally made my day.


Just kidding, but seriously I had a dream about that last night, it was a really good episode that I dreamt up.

Also I dreamt that the US defeated Portugal and Germany at the same time...
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #248 on: June 23, 2014, 09:52:43 am »
0

I feel like this week's Game of Thrones really jumped the shark...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #249 on: June 23, 2014, 10:30:44 am »
0

Am I forgetting how big a character LSH was? She wasn't really on my radar much at all. She appeared only a couple of times, right? Why is there so much love for her? I just don't get why this is a big deal to so many people.

It's just COOL. We really don't know how important she is at this point, though. So you're right about that.

I think she will be big. My guess is that the sword Stannis claims to be Lightbringer (that's the name of it right?) is actually the flaming sword that red priest with Beric Dondarion uses. So she will at least play a medium sized role in later books/episodes with some conflict to aquire that sword for Daernys (how ever her nameis spelled).
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #250 on: June 23, 2014, 10:34:06 am »
0

Am I forgetting how big a character LSH was? She wasn't really on my radar much at all. She appeared only a couple of times, right? Why is there so much love for her? I just don't get why this is a big deal to so many people.

It's just COOL. We really don't know how important she is at this point, though. So you're right about that.

I think she will be big. My guess is that the sword Stannis claims to be Lightbringer (that's the name of it right?) is actually the flaming sword that red priest with Beric Dondarion uses. So she will at least play a medium sized role in later books/episodes with some conflict to aquire that sword for Daernys (how ever her nameis spelled).

Thoros didn't use a "flaming sword" really.  He simply coated his swords in oil and set them aflame.  The fire ruined the sword, so he continually had to buy new ones.  There is a passage in the book where a blacksmith laments this.  I assume Melisandre is playing similar tricks with Stannis.  She may be able to make his look more authentic with her abilities and various items, but it's still just a trick.  A specific point is made that Stannis' sword radiates no heat.  So, an illusion of some kind.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #251 on: June 23, 2014, 11:07:31 am »
0

Am I forgetting how big a character LSH was? She wasn't really on my radar much at all. She appeared only a couple of times, right? Why is there so much love for her? I just don't get why this is a big deal to so many people.

It's just COOL. We really don't know how important she is at this point, though. So you're right about that.

I think she will be big. My guess is that the sword Stannis claims to be Lightbringer (that's the name of it right?) is actually the flaming sword that red priest with Beric Dondarion uses. So she will at least play a medium sized role in later books/episodes with some conflict to aquire that sword for Daernys (how ever her nameis spelled).

Thoros didn't use a "flaming sword" really.  He simply coated his swords in oil and set them aflame.  The fire ruined the sword, so he continually had to buy new ones.  There is a passage in the book where a blacksmith laments this.  I assume Melisandre is playing similar tricks with Stannis.  She may be able to make his look more authentic with her abilities and various items, but it's still just a trick.  A specific point is made that Stannis' sword radiates no heat.  So, an illusion of some kind.

Good old Aemon made the comment about "Lightbringer" not radiating any heat, but that is the only hint we have that Stannis is not the new Azor Ahai (plus his "I don't believe in  nonsense" attitude, and Daenerys fitting the prophecy better, I think). We do not know what Melisandre thinks, though. Unlike Thoros's sword, it might still be real magic which created this iteration of Lightbringer, which might just lead her to believe that it's only lacking power because it didn't go through the whole ritual/sacrifice stuff, as in the legend of the original one.

Wait, is there anything I should spoiler in this post?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 11:11:12 am by pacovf »
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #252 on: June 23, 2014, 11:11:08 am »
+1

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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #253 on: June 23, 2014, 11:17:50 am »
0

Am I forgetting how big a character LSH was? She wasn't really on my radar much at all. She appeared only a couple of times, right? Why is there so much love for her? I just don't get why this is a big deal to so many people.

It's just COOL. We really don't know how important she is at this point, though. So you're right about that.

I think she will be big. My guess is that the sword Stannis claims to be Lightbringer (that's the name of it right?) is actually the flaming sword that red priest with Beric Dondarion uses. So she will at least play a medium sized role in later books/episodes with some conflict to aquire that sword for Daernys (how ever her nameis spelled).

Thoros didn't use a "flaming sword" really.  He simply coated his swords in oil and set them aflame.  The fire ruined the sword, so he continually had to buy new ones.  There is a passage in the book where a blacksmith laments this.  I assume Melisandre is playing similar tricks with Stannis.  She may be able to make his look more authentic with her abilities and various items, but it's still just a trick.  A specific point is made that Stannis' sword radiates no heat.  So, an illusion of some kind.

Good old Aemon made the comment about "Lightbringer" not radiating any heat, but that is the only hint we have that Stannis is not the new Azor Ahai (plus his "I don't believe in  nonsense" attitude, and Daenerys fitting the prophecy better, I think). We do not know what Melisandre thinks, though. Unlike Thoros's sword, it might still be real magic which created this iteration of Lightbringer, which might just lead her to believe that it's only lacking power because it didn't go through the whole ritual/sacrifice stuff, as in the legend of the original one.

Wait, is there anything I should spoiler in this post?

Well, yes, I'm sure some kind of "magic" is involved, in Melisandre's sense of magic.  But my guess is that Melisandre is just making it look like Lightbringer to further her agenda, whatever that is exactly.

Anyway, I wanted to emphasize that Stannis' sword is certainly not the same sword that Thoros used.. particularly because there was no single sword that Thoros used.

And, nah, nothing huge is given away here, I think.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #254 on: June 23, 2014, 11:18:24 am »
+1

But Davos is Lightbringer?

Or Jon :P

But we all know it's really Hodor.

Edit: Actually, I was thinking of Azor Ahai.  I didn't really fully register what you said there.  Neat writeup :)
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 11:27:41 am by Witherweaver »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #255 on: June 23, 2014, 11:35:49 pm »
+1

Good old Aemon made the comment about "Lightbringer" not radiating any heat, but that is the only hint we have that Stannis is not the new Azor Ahai (plus his "I don't believe in  nonsense" attitude, and Daenerys fitting the prophecy better, I think).

Plus Melisandre's "I pray for a vision of Azor Ahai, but R'hllor shows me only [Jon] Snow."

Quote
We do not know what Melisandre thinks, though.

Not so; we know Melisandre thinks Stannis is Azor Ahai.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #256 on: October 31, 2014, 09:16:00 pm »
+2

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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #257 on: April 13, 2015, 09:58:39 am »
+1

So, we're back.  I liked the premiere.  I'll talk about some of the things in the episode here without spoiler tags.

I realize that (according to rumors), most of Season 5 has been leaked online.  I think we should not talk about anything from those leaked episodes here until they premiere through the regular schedule.  I don't intend to watch them ahead of time.

My only concern with the episode:

Mance dying really seemed like Mance dying.  Is it still possible to pull the switch?  I had thought in the books that Rattleshirt was somehow tricked... and they had gagged him or not let him speak or something?  Maybe I'm just remembering it wrong.  Did it go down just like this?

Sansa looks like she's taking a different arc, and I think that is good.  Robyn being out of the picture can only improve things, I think, as he's really annoying to deal with.  I'm interested to see what Sansa and Littlefinger will do.

I guess Tywin's death (and Jaime's involvement) is serving as the wedge between Jaime and Cersei instead of Lancel, and Osmund Kettleback, and Moonboy for all I know.  Though, I'm sure some of that will end up coming out, maybe by Lancel himself confessing to Jaime. 

I'm looking forward to everything to do with Dorne. 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #258 on: April 13, 2015, 10:13:15 am »
0

OT: Direct Golf's Irons Throne

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #259 on: April 13, 2015, 10:39:13 am »
0

I guess there's no real reason to fear getting the end of the book series spoiled at this point, because the series seems to be telling a completely different story now
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #260 on: April 13, 2015, 10:39:45 am »
0

My only concern with the episode:

Mance dying really seemed like Mance dying.  Is it still possible to pull the switch?  I had thought in the books that Rattleshirt was somehow tricked... and they had gagged him or not let him speak or something?  Maybe I'm just remembering it wrong.  Did it go down just like this?

I think it really was Mance, and I'm fine with that change. I really didn't like the glamour in the books and I trust the show to make the plotline it's used in work without it.

Also, the first four episodes leaked, and I'm a terrible person and watched them all at a friend's place last night. Just so you're aware what's out there.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #261 on: April 13, 2015, 10:40:52 am »
0

I guess there's no real reason to fear getting the end of the book series spoiled at this point, because the series seems to be telling a completely different story now

No, this is exactly what we thought would happen is happening - characters will take different paths to (mostly) the same destinations.

I will not be surprised at all to read in Book 6 events happening in Season 5 that we all thought were show changes.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #262 on: April 13, 2015, 10:42:59 am »
0

My only concern with the episode:

Mance dying really seemed like Mance dying.  Is it still possible to pull the switch?  I had thought in the books that Rattleshirt was somehow tricked... and they had gagged him or not let him speak or something?  Maybe I'm just remembering it wrong.  Did it go down just like this?

I think it really was Mance, and I'm fine with that change. I really didn't like the glamour in the books and I trust the show to make the plotline it's used in work without it.

Also, the first four episodes leaked, and I'm a terrible person and watched them all at a friend's place last night. Just so you're aware what's out there.

Eh, if it is, I'm disappointed a bit.. I really liked Mance and  want his character to stick around.  Plus, the stuff at Winterfell~
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #263 on: April 13, 2015, 10:51:13 am »
0

I guess there's no real reason to fear getting the end of the book series spoiled at this point, because the series seems to be telling a completely different story now

No, this is exactly what we thought would happen is happening - characters will take different paths to (mostly) the same destinations.
That's trivially true since most characters will likely end up dead^^

It's the way that really matters though.

Does anyone remember how the show explained Viserys&Dany escaping and being found by Varys?

Not sure wether I'll watch the leaks or go one episode at a time. I kinda want to know what happens, but there'd be such a long wait afterwards.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #264 on: April 13, 2015, 10:59:09 am »
0

Does anyone remember how the show explained Viserys&Dany escaping and being found by Varys?

It's possible I might say something from a future episode here, so I'm putting it in spoilers, but I'm pretty sure I'm not.

I think it's implied they were found by Illyrio, similar/same as the books.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #265 on: April 13, 2015, 11:04:14 am »
0

But the show said that Varys and Illyrio only met after Robert started messing up ruling his kingdom, and only then started their plan to restore Targaryen power. Why does Illyrio even want that? He leaves on a different continent.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #266 on: April 13, 2015, 11:12:34 am »
0

I'm sure they're not done revealing the motivations of those characters (same as the books).
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #267 on: April 13, 2015, 11:39:21 am »
0

I actually seem to be misremebering this, somehow I thought Varys was more involved in Dany's early life in the books.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #268 on: April 13, 2015, 02:17:55 pm »
0

I'm looking forward to everything to do with Dorne.

AKA Sevilla.




Yes this is my sole contribution to the thread. But to be fair I was surprised when I first read about people whose first reaction to Dorne was "This is Wales".
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #269 on: April 13, 2015, 02:40:05 pm »
0

Dorne? Isn't that the unhealthy looking birthmark on Loras?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #270 on: April 13, 2015, 02:58:58 pm »
0

Dorne? Isn't that the unhealthy looking birthmark on Loras?

Dorne is the large kingdom to the south.  It's hot there, and the natives are dark skinned and have features similar to Spaniards.   The ruling family is the Martells; Oberyn (the dude that got squished) is the brother of the King of Dorne (who we will meet soon).  This is where Myrcella was sent by Tyrion.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #271 on: April 13, 2015, 03:00:13 pm »
0

Dorne? Isn't that the unhealthy looking birthmark on Loras?

Dorne is the large kingdom to the south.  It's hot there, and the natives are dark skinned and have features similar to Spaniards.   The ruling family is the Martells; Oberyn (the dude that got squished) is the brother of the King of Dorne (who we will meet soon).  This is where Myrcella was sent by Tyrion.

hey, spoilers

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #272 on: April 13, 2015, 03:01:23 pm »
+2

We've already been told all about Dorne, and, uh, thread title.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #273 on: April 13, 2015, 03:03:42 pm »
0

But (unless you watched the leaks) you can't be sure Doran wasn't cut from the show. Also, he isn't a king in the book.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #274 on: April 13, 2015, 03:07:07 pm »
0

But (unless you watched the leaks) you can't be sure Doran wasn't cut from the show. Also, he isn't a king in the book.

He's in the previews!  And casting lists, etc. 

I didn't remember what their people were called.  Prince?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #275 on: April 13, 2015, 03:07:54 pm »
0

But (unless you watched the leaks) you can't be sure Doran wasn't cut from the show. Also, he isn't a king in the book.

And I didn't read the books. You can spoil everything from aired episodes, just put the rest in spoiler tags... otherwise there's no real point in using spoiler tags at all.

PPE: And I also don't watch previous! I don't want to be spoiled. Previous spoil.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #276 on: April 13, 2015, 03:08:51 pm »
0

But (unless you watched the leaks) you can't be sure Doran wasn't cut from the show. Also, he isn't a king in the book.

And I didn't read the books. You can spoil everything from aired episodes, just put the rest in spoiler tags... otherwise there's no real point in using spoiler tags at all.

PPE: And I also don't watch previous! I don't want to be spoiled. Previous spoil.

I didn't spoil anything from the books.  Everything I said was in the aired episodes.  At least, I'm 90% sure they've brought up Doran Martell.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #277 on: April 13, 2015, 03:11:12 pm »
0

being mentinoed ≠ showing up

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #278 on: April 13, 2015, 03:14:53 pm »
0

I mean, you can see the man's face in the "next week on Game of Thrones" that comes on right after the episode; we're not going to worry here about putting that in spoiler tags.  Dorne has been pretty intimately connected with the plot thus far; it's no great surprise that we can expect to see more of it.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #279 on: April 13, 2015, 04:27:33 pm »
0

I've been reading the books and haven't seen the show at all.  I am now in Chapter 34 of A Feast For Crows.  I saw a "catch-up" article for GoT recently and it looks like I'm actually a bit ahead of the show now, at least as far as the show is faithful.  Is that accurate?  Maybe I should start watching it now. :P
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #280 on: April 13, 2015, 04:30:50 pm »
+2

I've been reading the books and haven't seen the show at all.  I am now in Chapter 34 of A Feast For Crows.  I saw a "catch-up" article for GoT recently and it looks like I'm actually a bit ahead of the show now, at least as far as the show is faithful.  Is that accurate?  Maybe I should start watching it now. :P

It's a delicate situation.  Essentially, A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons run concurrently, at least for part of it, with the PoV characters split between the books.  I imagine the show will not follow the same narrative style.  So things that happen in the show in the timeline as A Feast for Crows will probably include things that happen in A Dance with Dragons.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #281 on: April 13, 2015, 04:32:02 pm »
0

I've been reading the books and haven't seen the show at all.  I am now in Chapter 34 of A Feast For Crows.  I saw a "catch-up" article for GoT recently and it looks like I'm actually a bit ahead of the show now, at least as far as the show is faithful.  Is that accurate?  Maybe I should start watching it now. :P

It's a delicate situation.  Essentially, A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons run concurrently, at least for part of it, with the PoV characters split between the books.  I imagine the show will not follow the same narrative style.  So things that happen in the show in the timeline as A Feast for Crows will probably include things that happen in A Dance with Dragons.

Ahh.  I guess I will just keep reading until I'm all caught up.  It's not like I'm lacking for things to watch anyway.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #282 on: April 13, 2015, 04:34:43 pm »
0

Well I think you can start watching it now.  You just may want to finish Dance with Dragons before you start Season 5.  Essentially the start of Season 5 is around the timeline of the start of A Feast for Crows/A Dance with Dragons.
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #283 on: April 13, 2015, 04:37:11 pm »
0

I'd also recommend starting to watch the show with the first season, in case that's not what you were planning.
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #284 on: April 13, 2015, 04:47:48 pm »
0

I've been reading the books and haven't seen the show at all.  I am now in Chapter 34 of A Feast For Crows.  I saw a "catch-up" article for GoT recently and it looks like I'm actually a bit ahead of the show now, at least as far as the show is faithful.  Is that accurate?  Maybe I should start watching it now. :P

You would be fine watching the first three seasons.
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werothegreat

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #285 on: April 13, 2015, 04:52:46 pm »
0

Well I think you can start watching it now.  You just may want to finish Dance with Dragons before you start Season 5.  Essentially the start of Season 5 is around the timeline of the start of A Feast for Crows/A Dance with Dragons.

Except Bran's storyline is all caught up to the end of ADWD.  And it looks like the show is going to skip Sansa's AFFC storyline altogether.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #286 on: April 13, 2015, 04:55:39 pm »
0

Well I think you can start watching it now.  You just may want to finish Dance with Dragons before you start Season 5.  Essentially the start of Season 5 is around the timeline of the start of A Feast for Crows/A Dance with Dragons.

Except Bran's storyline is all caught up to the end of ADWD.  And it looks like the show is going to skip Sansa's AFFC storyline altogether.

Right, so maybe only through Season 3, like Robz said. 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #287 on: April 13, 2015, 05:21:22 pm »
0

Dorne? Isn't that the unhealthy looking birthmark on Loras?

Dorne is the large kingdom to the south.  It's hot there, and the natives are dark skinned and have features similar to Spaniards.

This is mostly irrelevant to the story, but the similarities between Dorne and medieval Andalusia (Southern Spain) are not limited to the physical features of the Dornish. There is also the clothing, the architecture, the customs, the food, the climate, the geography, etc.

But apparently the history of Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms is a rehash of that of Wales and England. Some people thought it was boring and uninspired, but somehow weren't bothered by the whole Stark-Lannister conflict being a fantasy version of the War of the Roses.

#ThingsYouLearnWhileResearchingASOIAF
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #288 on: April 13, 2015, 05:22:35 pm »
0

Yeah I'd start from the first season.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #289 on: April 13, 2015, 05:24:44 pm »
0

Dorne? Isn't that the unhealthy looking birthmark on Loras?

Dorne is the large kingdom to the south.  It's hot there, and the natives are dark skinned and have features similar to Spaniards.

This is mostly irrelevant to the story, but the similarities between Dorne and medieval Andalusia (Southern Spain) are not limited to the physical features of the Dornish. There is also the clothing, the architecture, the customs, the food, the climate, the geography, etc.

But apparently the history of Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms is a rehash of that of Wales and England. Some people thought it was boring and uninspired, but somehow weren't bothered by the whole Stark-Lannister conflict being a fantasy version of the War of the Roses.

#ThingsYouLearnWhileResearchingASOIAF

Yeah, and we all know that somewhere, to the East, there be dragons.
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werothegreat

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #290 on: April 13, 2015, 05:29:54 pm »
0

Dorne? Isn't that the unhealthy looking birthmark on Loras?

Dorne is the large kingdom to the south.  It's hot there, and the natives are dark skinned and have features similar to Spaniards.

This is mostly irrelevant to the story, but the similarities between Dorne and medieval Andalusia (Southern Spain) are not limited to the physical features of the Dornish. There is also the clothing, the architecture, the customs, the food, the climate, the geography, etc.

But apparently the history of Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms is a rehash of that of Wales and England. Some people thought it was boring and uninspired, but somehow weren't bothered by the whole Stark-Lannister conflict being a fantasy version of the War of the Roses.

#ThingsYouLearnWhileResearchingASOIAF

Yeah, and we all know that somewhere, to the East, there be dragons.

But Wales is west of England...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #291 on: April 13, 2015, 05:32:43 pm »
0

It's also east.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #292 on: April 13, 2015, 05:41:28 pm »
0

Dorne? Isn't that the unhealthy looking birthmark on Loras?

Dorne is the large kingdom to the south.  It's hot there, and the natives are dark skinned and have features similar to Spaniards.

This is mostly irrelevant to the story, but the similarities between Dorne and medieval Andalusia (Southern Spain) are not limited to the physical features of the Dornish. There is also the clothing, the architecture, the customs, the food, the climate, the geography, etc.

But apparently the history of Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms is a rehash of that of Wales and England. Some people thought it was boring and uninspired, but somehow weren't bothered by the whole Stark-Lannister conflict being a fantasy version of the War of the Roses.

#ThingsYouLearnWhileResearchingASOIAF

Yeah, and we all know that somewhere, to the East, there be dragons.

The last dragon died over a century ago, lad.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #293 on: April 13, 2015, 07:59:31 pm »
0

Also, he isn't a king in the book.

He's a Prince in the show too.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #294 on: April 13, 2015, 08:14:40 pm »
0

That was just me misspeaking.  I haven't seen anything that hasn't aired.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #295 on: April 13, 2015, 10:45:20 pm »
0

That was just me misspeaking.  I haven't seen anything that hasn't aired.

I mean, he's been called a prince in previous seasons.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #297 on: April 16, 2015, 11:32:29 pm »
0

So I was further along than I thought.  I just finished A Feast for Crows.  I thought I was only halfway through because the preceding book had twice as many chapters.  Not sure about actual length of the text though (I'm reading it on my phone, where it's a lot harder to judge progress vs. a physical book).

And now I am sad because there were a bunch of cliffhangers and it seems unlikely that they'll be resolved in A Dance With Dragons, given that it will deal with another set of characters.  Huh.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #298 on: April 16, 2015, 11:35:19 pm »
+1

So I was further along than I thought.  I just finished A Feast for Crows.  I thought I was only halfway through because the preceding book had twice as many chapters.  Not sure about actual length of the text though (I'm reading it on my phone, where it's a lot harder to judge progress vs. a physical book).

And now I am sad because there were a bunch of cliffhangers and it seems unlikely that they'll be resolved in A Dance With Dragons, given that it will deal with another set of characters.  Huh.

Dance with Dragons passes A Feast for Crows timeline during the book, so you do get to see some of the characters.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #299 on: April 19, 2015, 09:27:34 pm »
0

So I was further along than I thought.  I just finished A Feast for Crows.  I thought I was only halfway through because the preceding book had twice as many chapters.  Not sure about actual length of the text though (I'm reading it on my phone, where it's a lot harder to judge progress vs. a physical book).

And now I am sad because there were a bunch of cliffhangers and it seems unlikely that they'll be resolved in A Dance With Dragons, given that it will deal with another set of characters.  Huh.

Dance with Dragons passes A Feast for Crows timeline during the book, so you do get to see some of the characters.

I don't remember any of the cliffhangers being actually resolved in Dance of Dragons. You just get confirmation as to he conclusion of some events but not of what happened exactly.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #300 on: April 19, 2015, 10:54:58 pm »
0

GAYUM OF THROWUNS happened again tonight.  Who got excited for some Sansa and Brienne action?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #302 on: April 20, 2015, 09:43:52 am »
0

GAYUM OF THROWUNS happened again tonight.  Who got excited for some Sansa and Brienne action?

Yeah, I kept thinking, "Man, they're really diverging from the books."  But I guess that's okay.  Jaime being in Dorne and Brienne being with Sansa and Littlefinger means less subgroups to follow around in the narrative, which means less disjointed narrative.  The first two episodes of this season have felt a little bit like abrupt skipping around to all the different characters, without really developing any one.

Jaqen showing up was unexpected, but I think it works for the TV show.  It might as well be him instead of some random mysterious new character.

I guess they might also change/shorten the Dany storyline?  Also, I wonder if they're dropping the developments in Oldtown.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #303 on: April 20, 2015, 10:17:17 am »
+1

And now I am sad because there were a bunch of cliffhangers and it seems unlikely that they'll be resolved in A Dance With Dragons, given that it will deal with another set of characters.  Huh.

Well... If you look at it from the bright side. Cliffhangers are never really resolved in the books. They are skipped past.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #304 on: April 20, 2015, 10:24:52 am »
+2

GRRM is a member of Dr McNinja's school of resolving cliffhangers:


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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #305 on: April 20, 2015, 05:41:57 pm »
0

A few random thoughts about the episode (#2):

- The line from Tyrion followed by the immediate cut to Cersei was both hilarious and terrifying
- Varys is a goddamn fantastic character
- The night watch voting was untypically weak/predictable. I think the whole John Snow arc is probably the weakest part of the show
- The Daenerys part was heartbreaking. Her Old Testament fashioned sense of justice is her only weakness, and it keeps hurting her.

If Daenerys dies, or even just fails, it would be nothing short of cruel. Ned stark is one thing, but she's such a powerful, iconic character. I don't see it, not even in this show.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #306 on: April 20, 2015, 07:06:37 pm »
0

If Daenerys dies, or even just fails, it would be nothing short of cruel. Ned stark is one thing, but she's such a powerful, iconic character. I don't see it, not even in this show.

I'm a huge fan of Dany, but I'm extremely nervous she's on her way to becoming a genocidal dictator. I agree the NW election wasn't very good - Aemon casting the final vote was just awkward.

Overall, though, I'm glad to have the show back and enjoying the season so far.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #307 on: April 21, 2015, 12:05:04 am »
0

Dany is like so incredibly boring, especially in the show. At least she isn't yelling about "her dragons" in every scene now that she lost the control of them, that's an improvement. She is above average as a ruler for a 16 year old girl though, I guess.

Man, I haven't liked this season. Not really excited for any storyline yet. I've only watched the first two episodes, but the fact that I've been able to show restraint after the leak speaks volumes.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #308 on: April 27, 2015, 05:29:55 pm »
0

So we saw the six spearwives in Winterfell briefly, which makes me think Mance is still alive.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #309 on: April 27, 2015, 06:27:55 pm »
0

So we saw the six spearwives in Winterfell briefly, which makes me think Mance is still alive.

Gah.  That makes sense that the camera stayed on them; I was wondering who they were supposed to be.  I thought maybe some survivors/refugees from Winterfell that found their way back and knew Sansa.  But, I was really distracted by the timeline.  How long does it take to travel from wherever Brienne intercepted Littlefinger (not too far from the Eyrie, I think) to Winterfell?  Has to be, like, months.  Then this episode they were at Moat Cailin, and then they arrive at Winterfell. 

Okay, that's enough time for Jon to conspire with Mance (or anyone else) to send a mission to Winterfell.  But.. Jon couldn't know that Sansa was heading there.  So he only could have sent them there to kill Roose.  But then they couldn't know who Sansa is, so why the stare?

At any rate, the sudden jump to Moat Cailin and them from Moat Cailin to Winterfell from scene-to-scene was jarring, mostly because it didn't feel like the other storylines progressed so far.  Arya seemed to only be in the house for a few days based on how she was acting.  Jon still seems to have just become Lord Commander.  Okay, well, I guess Tyrion's travels, and presumably Jaime suddenly being in Dorne, will give some more coherence to the time jump.  It still feels like certain stories (King's Landing and Mereen) are moving to slowly for the traveling ones.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #310 on: April 27, 2015, 07:04:01 pm »
+1

I don't think those were spearwives, those are Ramsey's girls - one of them is Miranda, who has appeared numerous times before, taking part in his "hunts". You see her and Ramsey during sexytimes in one of the trailers, a moment that will certainly end well for her.

Characters on the show can always teleport if needed. It's a real shame, but I get it - the show has to either let the timelines move at their own pace, which would mean seeing those scenes back-to-back but a month passes for only Sansa, or not have her in four episodes. Neither option is good, sadly. I honestly didn't find the Moat Cailin / Winterfell jump nearly as jarring as the rider from the Eyrie > Winterfell, who apparently used a flying horse.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #311 on: April 28, 2015, 11:14:34 am »
+1

Yeah, that rider bringing the message really annoyed me. Anyway, why wouldn't they just send another raven?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #312 on: April 28, 2015, 11:27:42 am »
0

What was the rider that went to Winterfell?

Also, Is Balon Greyjoy dead yet?*  I kind of expected this season to open with him dying.  They made a point of throwing his leech in the flame as well, so I expected it to happen in the same general time frame as Robb and Joffery.  I'm not really sure what they're going to do with that storyline.  No spoilers for those of you that watched the leaked episode~

*"Yet" meaning, as of Season 5, Episode 3.


Hm... thinking more.. there are some more possible inconsistencies with timelines.  How much time passed between Episode 1 and Episode 2?  Episode 1 took place the day after Season 4 ended, which is when Arya got on the boat.  In Epsidoe 2, she arrives in Braavos.  I'm not sure how long it would take, but I might guess a couple weeks to a month.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #313 on: April 28, 2015, 02:25:13 pm »
0

Again...characters separated geographically don't have to follow the same timeline, just like in the books! Would you rather not have Arya for eight episodes, or pretend that tune passes in-between her scenes, just like in every other TV show?

EDIT: And no, Balon isn't dead yet. I'm assuming they're hoping we forget about him.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 02:26:17 pm by Voltaire »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #314 on: April 28, 2015, 02:30:48 pm »
0

Again...characters separated geographically don't have to follow the same timeline, just like in the books! Would you rather not have Arya for eight episodes, or pretend that tune passes in-between her scenes, just like in every other TV show?

EDIT: And no, Balon isn't dead yet. I'm assuming they're hoping we forget about him.

They don't have to follow the same timeline, but they do have to agree upon any convergence or intersection.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #315 on: April 28, 2015, 02:31:56 pm »
0

Honest question then, was there a convergence involving Arya I missed?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #316 on: April 28, 2015, 02:49:43 pm »
0

Nah, I'm just supposing stuff might eventually converge.  I'm not pointing out specific problems, more just pondering on whether this could be an issue or not, because I happened to think of it as I was watching.  Basically, Arya's scenes in Episodes 2 and 3 seem to take place over the course of a few days, and the scenes in King's Landing and Mereen seem to have little time between them, while Littlefinger & co., Jaime, etc., jump weeks/months.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #317 on: April 28, 2015, 05:45:23 pm »
0

What was the rider that went to Winterfell?

Roose Bolton says a "rider" brought Cersei's letter for Littlefinger from the Eyrie to Winterfell. Why not a raven? Who knows?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #318 on: April 28, 2015, 05:48:49 pm »
0

What was the rider that went to Winterfell?

Roose Bolton says a "rider" brought Cersei's letter for Littlefinger from the Eyrie to Winterfell. Why not a raven? Who knows?

Huh, I thought he said raven.

I mean, it was rolled up small like a raven scroll.  Why wouldn't a rider bring a letter on full-sized paper?

Edit: Oh, maybe it was sent by raven to Eyrie and then brought by a rider to Winterfell.. but raven still makes more sense.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 05:50:25 pm by Witherweaver »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #319 on: May 04, 2015, 09:39:32 am »
0

Are they combining Arianne Martell into Ellaria Sand?   I would think Arianne would be introduced by now, and Ellaria seems to be taking her role.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #320 on: May 04, 2015, 09:42:28 am »
+1

Are they combining Arianne Martell into Ellaria Sand?   I would think Arianne would be introduced by now, and Ellaria seems to be taking her role.

Considering they've probably cut "Aegon", it seems likely.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #321 on: May 04, 2015, 09:46:01 am »
+1

:(  I thought the Dorne drama was one of the more interesting arcs.

Also, Oldtown!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #322 on: May 04, 2015, 11:28:38 am »
0

Did anyone else expect Gendry to show up in one of these boat scenes?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #323 on: May 04, 2015, 11:37:25 am »
+1

Are they combining Arianne Martell into Ellaria Sand?   I would think Arianne would be introduced by now, and Ellaria seems to be taking her role.

Yes.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #324 on: May 04, 2015, 01:40:16 pm »
0

So the show just straight up sucks now?

Very sad.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #325 on: May 04, 2015, 01:46:44 pm »
0

So the show just straight up sucks now?

Very sad.

I wouldn't go that far, but yeah, I'm actually not loving this season as much, and I think that has to do with how many changes they are making. I've really liked most of their changes up until now (the exception probably being the silliness with Bran and "Locke" at Craster's Keep last season), but eh... it's threatening to all kind of come apart. The changes to Brienne, Sansa, and Jamie's storylines certainly haven't left me with much enthusiasm, and the plot thread I'm enjoying the most right now is the one that has been arguably the most faithful: Jon and Stannis at the Wall.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #326 on: May 04, 2015, 01:57:10 pm »
+2

So the show just straight up sucks now?

Very sad.

I wouldn't go that far, but yeah, I'm actually not loving this season as much, and I think that has to do with how many changes they are making. I've really liked most of their changes up until now (the exception probably being the silliness with Bran and "Locke" at Craster's Keep last season), but eh... it's threatening to all kind of come apart. The changes to Brienne, Sansa, and Jamie's storylines certainly haven't left me with much enthusiasm, and the plot thread I'm enjoying the most right now is the one that has been arguably the most faithful: Jon and Stannis at the Wall.

I dunno, I thought Arya refusing to give up Needle was beautifully done.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #327 on: May 04, 2015, 02:04:49 pm »
+1

Actually, I'm happy enough with most of their changes.  I like not knowing what's coming next.  I'm very excited to see both Jaime in his story and Brienne/Sansa in theirs.  And, everything with Arya is good.  And accelerating Daenerys' storyline is probably good.

I'm mostly disappointed with things being dropped, because, well, I don't really like it when stuff is left out. But it happens with book adaptations a lot.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #328 on: May 04, 2015, 02:12:42 pm »
+2

I guess, one of the problems I'm having is that some of the storylines seem very strained. Littlefinger's Sansa plot just makes absolutely no sense. If his goal is to give Sansa the north by way of a victorious Stannis, why not just sit her safely in the Vale until Winterfell falls and then send her north? Why subject her to the Boltons at all?

The fact that Brienne has now run across both Arya and Sansa, and had them refuse her service, just sucks all the urgency out of her narrative. There is just no point to her anymore--particularly if, as I suspect, the showrunners aren't ever going to introduce Stonheart. They are trying make "avenge Renly, kill Stannis" her motivation, but it's just impossible to be anything but mildly annoyed about that, because Renly has been dead for many seasons (and was never like a fully realized character anyway).

I like Jamie hanging out with Bronne, but I'm not yet loving the idea to send them to Dorne instead of the Riverlands. The Dornish characters just don't seem very interesting now that Oberyn is dead. They don't add much. It's not like the show had a dearth of characters whose primary motivation is "revenge."
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 04:19:13 pm by Robz888 »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #329 on: May 04, 2015, 02:45:43 pm »
0

There are some great acting performances, Stannis and Davos are awesome and Bronn is fun. But oh my god have they botched Jaime's character??? He was one of my favorites in the books, this version makes me cry.
Spoilers regarding the end of the episode:
Apparently Barristan is actually dead. Which I guess means he will die in the battle of Meereen in the books? Mmh. I guess they are killing off Dany's trusted advisors to make reintroducing Jorah easier?

I agree with Robz there is a lot of storylines that don't do anything but are there to remind us of the characters. I'm really hoping Littlefinger has some deeper plan regarding Sansa, as it is I don't understand why she has to be suspected to the Bolton's if they are actually backing Stannis. Why not just take her to him?

I can't even point at any single thing why I dislike the show now. It's just not captivating. I used to stay up until the episode airs (5am here) because I couldn't wait to see it, and now it wasn't even hard to not watch the leaked episodes and I'm actually putting off watching the new one for days just because I don't care. There is not a single character arc or plot line I'm particularly interested in right now. No person I'm hoping to see next. It's just dull!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #330 on: May 04, 2015, 03:56:43 pm »
+1

I dunno, I thought Arya refusing to give up Needle was beautifully done.

That's not a change from the book, though maybe they changed the particular manner of it...?

"avenge Stannis, kill Renly"

Other way around, right?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #331 on: May 04, 2015, 04:19:34 pm »
0

I dunno, I thought Arya refusing to give up Needle was beautifully done.

That's not a change from the book, though maybe they changed the particular manner of it...?

"avenge Stannis, kill Renly"

Other way around, right?

Right right. Of course.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #332 on: May 04, 2015, 04:33:58 pm »
0

I just realized they didn't even include Cersei burning down the tower of the hand.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #333 on: May 04, 2015, 08:57:31 pm »
0

I think I'm the most forgiving book fan I've met when it comes to the show (I like that they cut LSH, for example) and even I'm arching my eyebrows a bit at Sansa's storyline so far. I'm holding out home for some sort of bizarre Littlefinger double-bluff something.

Brienne meeting Arya and Sansa and being rejected by both I actually loved - because it's a plot change that's consistent with everyone's book characterizations. I mean, why exactly would Arya or Sansa want to go with Brienne anyway? Littlefinger was actually pretty much telling the truth (however snidely) about Brienne at the inn.

I always find it interesting to consider what my show-only roommate thinks, and he's loving the season so far, especially Cersei and the Faith Militant. He expects them to kill her at the end of the season - it's the one prediction he's made.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #334 on: May 04, 2015, 10:14:18 pm »
0

Brienne meeting Arya and Sansa and being rejected by both I actually loved - because it's a plot change that's consistent with everyone's book characterizations. I mean, why exactly would Arya or Sansa want to go with Brienne anyway? Littlefinger was actually pretty much telling the truth (however snidely) about Brienne at the inn.

But it just means there's really no reason for her character anymore. She was tasked with finding and saving the Starks, she randomly stumbled across them pretty quickly, and they decided she sucks and want nothing to do with her. Why do we still have to put up with any Brienne scenes? There's nothing for her to do. I guess I should withhold judgment for now, but I'm reeeally struggling to care about what happens to her now.

Jamie and Bronne are in a sort of similarly low-stakes story, because what happens to Myrcella just isn't very important or fascinating; again, it's been too long to care about the character.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #335 on: May 04, 2015, 10:15:04 pm »
0

Oh and I could never, and will never, forgive cutting LSH.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #336 on: May 05, 2015, 01:35:33 am »
0

As documented earlier, I never liked LSH so barring her actually becoming important, I don't mind cutting her. I'm not happy they seem to have decided to cut the iron islands and many awesome characters from there and Aegon though.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #337 on: May 05, 2015, 01:43:12 am »
0

But it just means there's really no reason for her character anymore. She was tasked with finding and saving the Starks, she randomly stumbled across them pretty quickly, and they decided she sucks and want nothing to do with her. Why do we still have to put up with any Brienne scenes? There's nothing for her to do.

Because Brienne is the "one true knight" and the show is about characters in addition to plot plot plot? Also, it seems like she'll be absorbing some version of Abel's/Theon's role in Winterfell later on based on trailers/informed speculation.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #338 on: May 05, 2015, 11:05:20 am »
0

well, having not read the books, I think the season is phenomenal so far. The only thing which seemed odd about this episode is that they left grey worm alive.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #339 on: May 05, 2015, 11:31:21 am »
+2

Because Brienne is the "one true knight" and the show is about characters in addition to plot plot plot? Also, it seems like she'll be absorbing some version of Abel's/Theon's role in Winterfell later on based on trailers/informed speculation.

That doesn't sound like it will make things better. I think Brienne's and Jaime's arc were messed up from the point where they arrived in KL and Brienne didn't even attempt helping Sansa.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #340 on: May 05, 2015, 01:03:11 pm »
0

I think Brienne's and Jaime's arc were messed up from the point where they arrived in KL and Brienne didn't even attempt helping Sansa.

Oh, right, I forgot that happened...I'm out of ammo to hand-wave the issues away. :(
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #341 on: May 11, 2015, 04:00:19 pm »
0

So with all the hullabaloo the show has been making about greyscale, I would be very surprised if it wasn't extremely important to the story.  It certainly doesn't seem like just a tiny little worldbuilding thing - it really seems like it's going to be a major plot point.  Which brings us to the question: What exactly is greyscale???
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #342 on: May 11, 2015, 07:00:15 pm »
0

So with all the hullabaloo the show has been making about greyscale, I would be very surprised if it wasn't extremely important to the story.  It certainly doesn't seem like just a tiny little worldbuilding thing - it really seems like it's going to be a major plot point.  Which brings us to the question: What exactly is greyscale???

I'm not watching the show yet.  I'm reading the books.  This is the sense I get:

It's a skin disease like leprosy that turns skin hard and grey like stone.  It's usually fatal but it's a slow death.  Survivors become immune to the disease but tend to be disfigured for life.  An example is Shireen Baratheon.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #343 on: May 11, 2015, 08:14:57 pm »
0

And like chicken pox in real life, it's usually just bothersome to children, but (frequently) fatal to adults.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #344 on: May 12, 2015, 08:40:00 am »
0

So with all the hullabaloo the show has been making about greyscale, I would be very surprised if it wasn't extremely important to the story.  It certainly doesn't seem like just a tiny little worldbuilding thing - it really seems like it's going to be a major plot point.  Which brings us to the question: What exactly is greyscale???

I'm not watching the show yet.  I'm reading the books.  This is the sense I get:

It's a skin disease like leprosy that turns skin hard and grey like stone.  It's usually fatal but it's a slow death.  Survivors become immune to the disease but tend to be disfigured for life.  An example is Shireen Baratheon.

That's not what I meant.  I get that it's a disease like leprosy - when I'm asking asking what it is, I'm asking whether it's magical in nature, what part it's going to play in the larger narrative, if it's symbolizing something, if it's going to interact with dragons or white walkers in some way.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #345 on: May 12, 2015, 02:10:59 pm »
0

Could greyscale be somehow replacing the pale mare in the show?

Jorah getting greyscale instead of Connington feels like less of a big deal. I mean, he has no other particular reason to want to postpone a sure death a little longer than delivering Tyrion to Dany, right?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #346 on: May 14, 2015, 07:26:05 pm »
0

I think Brienne's and Jaime's arc were messed up from the point where they arrived in KL and Brienne didn't even attempt helping Sansa.

Oh, right, I forgot that happened...I'm out of ammo to hand-wave the issues away. :(

She did though.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #347 on: May 24, 2015, 07:29:35 pm »
+1



Having not watched the show, I am not quite sure who all the actors are.

On the first day there's the actor who plays Robert Baratheon (who I recognize more as Roland from Knight's Tale) and... who?

Who's the guy at 4:55 that has the staredown with Jon Snow... Theon?  The two at 5:30 who want nuggets (that might be Theon again)?  The three singing at 7:37 (I think the woman is Daenerys)?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #348 on: May 25, 2015, 12:47:28 am »
+2

First question, I think you're talking about Jorah Mormont.

4:55 - staredown is between Ramsey Bolton (Snow) and Theon.

Nuggets - Sam and Jojen Reed

Singing three - Ramsey, Theon, and Myranda (show-only character, but she is one of Ramsey's "girls", who are in the books)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #349 on: May 25, 2015, 02:17:27 am »
+1

First question, I think you're talking about Jorah Mormont.

4:55 - staredown is between Ramsey Bolton (Snow) and Theon.

Nuggets - Sam and Jojen Reed

Singing three - Ramsey, Theon, and Myranda (show-only character, but she is one of Ramsey's "girls", who are in the books)

For the first question, he's the guy at 3:00.  I'm not sure who that is though.  Jorah Mormont is an older guy, I think.

Edit: ah, I guess that's Ramsay.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 02:29:20 am by eHalcyon »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #350 on: May 25, 2015, 12:31:02 pm »
+1

Bum

Bum

Bum buppa duppa dum



Fuck, it's stuck in my head now.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #351 on: June 01, 2015, 11:09:52 am »
+1

Best episode of the season!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #352 on: June 01, 2015, 11:25:45 am »
0

Best episode of the season!

I liked the last arc because I didn't expect it.   When the scene started with Jon Snow in the tent, I thought to myself, do we really need to see this?  I had thought that the scene was going to end after Tormund started walking to the tent to talk with the Elders, and they would move on to someone else's story, with the assumption that Jon would be successful in convincing at least some of the Wildlings to go with him.  Then as the scene kept going, I didn't know what they were going to do, and then it was like, "Damn, this is a big battle."

On another note, where is Asha/Yara?  After she tried to rescue Theon, did she go back to Iron Islands?  Does anyone think that she's going to end up in the same place she's at in the books?  And, man, we haven't seen Iron Islands in a long time...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #353 on: June 01, 2015, 11:58:49 am »
0

Best episode of the season!

Yeah, one of the best ever, perhaps. Mega praise for all facets of the episode, but especially the battle. Strong directing and artistic choices, excellent acting, exciting new characters... just wonderful.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #354 on: June 01, 2015, 12:09:45 pm »
0

Best episode of the season!

Yeah, one of the best ever, perhaps. Mega praise for all facets of the episode, but especially the battle. Strong directing and artistic choices, excellent acting, exciting new characters... just wonderful.
As someone in reddit theorized, maybe this is where all the budget and choreography time for the sand snakes scenes went.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #355 on: June 01, 2015, 01:23:55 pm »
+1

On another note, where is Asha/Yara?  After she tried to rescue Theon, did she go back to Iron Islands?  Does anyone think that she's going to end up in the same place she's at in the books?  And, man, we haven't seen Iron Islands in a long time...


The casting call for season 6 includes a character that sounds a lot like Euron Greyjoy, so it seems likely that they're going to revisit the Iron Islands plotline next season.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #356 on: June 01, 2015, 10:41:21 pm »
0

Anyone notice the conversation between sam and olly. For book readers potentially foreshadowing some things pretty strongly. Olly is almost certainly stabbing jon. And jon 'always comes back' as in resurrection?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #357 on: June 02, 2015, 04:33:12 am »
0

Anyone notice the conversation between sam and olly. For book readers potentially foreshadowing some things pretty strongly. Olly is almost certainly stabbing jon. And jon 'always comes back' as in resurrection?
Really hitting us over the head with that one.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #358 on: June 02, 2015, 09:36:48 pm »
0

The conversation between dany and tyrion was my favorite thing I've seen in a while.

the part north though... not so sure. kind of contrived? The fight itself was fantastic though.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #359 on: June 02, 2015, 09:49:17 pm »
0

I was four episodes behind until today, which in itself is a bad sign for how I'm feeling about this season. I think I'm about ready to drop the show.

I'm very disappointed by the Littlefinger/Sansa storyline this season especially. I don't get how giving Sansa over to the Boltons works with his character at all. From my point of view, there's two major qualities about Littlefinger in the series:

1) He will do almost anything for personal gain.
2) He truly loves Cat, and by extension, Sansa.

This doesn't follow either of those points, and just has me majorly confused -- not only has it led to a lot of gruesome scenes I'd rather have not watched, it just doesn't make sense with Littlefinger's character, which they have spent a lot of time developing. He was actually supposed to care about Sansa. I suppose the point should be that Littlefinger is so conniving that he's willing to do anything, and giving up Sansa drives that point home, but doing it in this way makes no sense. Allying with Cersei is supposed to be Littlefinger's master stroke? Really? For something so vile and disgusting, it needs to take something greatly beneficial for Littlefinger to give up Sansa in this way, and an alliance with the Boltons/Cersei just doesn't cut it for me. It seems like it's been introduced as a way to say that "Yeah, this is Westeros, bad shit happens", even when it goes against previous character development. And it's left me disgusted and not wanting to watch anymore.

Also disappointed we haven't seen anything on the Iron Islands. I was really really looking forward to Dorne and it's been a goofy unrealistic letdown. And where is Aegon?!

Tyrion/Dany has been the bright spot of this season. The Kings' Landing/Sparrow scenes are alright, but I feel like they had a lot more potential and didn't end up as good as they should have. The last fight scene was cool, but didn't do anything to shore up the major weaknesses in this season's plot lines. The more and more the show deviates from the books, the less and less I like it.

I'm thinking I'll finish this season up since it's so close, then wait for Winds of Winter unless I'm blown away by next season's reviews. I'd rather read the dramatic moments in book form than watch them in the show's current state.

Am I being too critical, or do others feel the same?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 09:53:50 pm by Twistedarcher »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #360 on: June 03, 2015, 02:11:51 am »
+1

Am I being too critical, or do others feel the same?

I don't think this season is "the worst thing ever"*, or ruining everything or anything, but your position is not unreasonable and I get why you could have it. My word of advice would be, the show is popular enough you are going to get big things spoiled culturally, so just be aware of that.

*omg look what I did there
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #361 on: June 03, 2015, 10:36:02 am »
0

I don't really think anything has gone too badly.  My main issues with the show is that there are some thing I wanted to see that were dropped for whatever reason.  Changes haven't bothered me too much otherwise.  I'm actually excited to see things that I don't know about.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #362 on: June 03, 2015, 01:07:35 pm »
+1

The conversation between dany and tyrion was my favorite thing I've seen in a while.

the part north though... not so sure. kind of contrived? The fight itself was fantastic though.
Seeing Tyrion in his element and doing well for a change was definitely fun, and he certainly makes Dany less insufferable, but I wouldn't call the scene amazing. It bothered me a little how quickly she took Tyrion under her wing and seemingly started trusting him.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #363 on: June 03, 2015, 02:15:09 pm »
0

I couldn't relly enjoy the Tyrion scene anymore after he said he trusted his brother.

I think I'm definitely to critical.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #364 on: June 03, 2015, 02:19:04 pm »
+1

I couldn't relly enjoy the Tyrion scene anymore after he said he trusted his brother.

I think I'm definitely to critical.

In the show, he never learned what Jaime did.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #365 on: June 03, 2015, 02:44:24 pm »
0

The conversation between dany and tyrion was my favorite thing I've seen in a while.

the part north though... not so sure. kind of contrived? The fight itself was fantastic though.
Seeing Tyrion in his element and doing well for a change was definitely fun, and he certainly makes Dany less insufferable, but I wouldn't call the scene amazing. It bothered me a little how quickly she took Tyrion under her wing and seemingly started trusting him.

She was quick to trust him. Remember though that  Ser Barristan just died, Mormont turned out to be a traitor and her boyfriend advised mass murder. An intelligent and reasonable adviser like Tyrion is pretty convenient for her.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #366 on: June 03, 2015, 02:55:25 pm »
0

Only thing she knows about him is that he just killed his dad. Don't know how that makes him reasonable.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #367 on: June 03, 2015, 02:55:43 pm »
0

Come on.  With that beard, you'd trust him too.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #368 on: June 03, 2015, 03:01:55 pm »
0

Only thing she knows about him is that he just killed his dad. Don't know how that makes him reasonable.

I think that's pretty apparent from the way he talks. That's sort of my thing though.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #369 on: June 03, 2015, 03:04:48 pm »
0

I couldn't relly enjoy the Tyrion scene anymore after he said he trusted his brother.

I think I'm definitely to critical.

In the show, he never learned what Jaime did.

Yeah, the problem is I was reminded of that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #370 on: June 03, 2015, 03:07:08 pm »
0

The triple-reveal in the books actually kind of grated on me. It's something I was happy to lose in the adaptation (along with glamour-Mance and some other things).
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #371 on: June 03, 2015, 03:07:22 pm »
0

I couldn't relly enjoy the Tyrion scene anymore after he said he trusted his brother.

I think I'm definitely to critical.

In the show, he never learned what Jaime did.

Yeah, the problem is I was reminded of that.

Ah, yeah.  Yes, that was a disappointment
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #372 on: June 08, 2015, 12:22:17 am »
+1

I quit.

No, seriously. Fuck this show. I'm done. It's an orgy of death and torture, it's boring and grim, and it's an insult to anyone who read and loved the books.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #373 on: June 08, 2015, 02:22:26 am »
0

BOOK SPOILERS

Did you see the quote after the episode from D&D implying this is something coming up in the books we haven't read yet?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #374 on: June 08, 2015, 09:41:05 am »
0

BOOK SPOILERS

Did you see the quote after the episode from D&D implying this is something coming up in the books we haven't read yet?

Yeah. I didn't particularly believe them. I mean, it wouldn't surprised me if that same thing happens, except under different, less completely infuriating, pure shock value circumstances. Maybe Mel does it without Stannis's knowledge, given that they aren't in the same place right now.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #375 on: June 08, 2015, 09:51:54 am »
0

Remember back in Season 2 where everyone was complaining that the show made Stannis too likeable?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #376 on: June 08, 2015, 09:59:52 am »
0

But anyway, I just noticed tonight that in the opening sequence where they go city to city over the map and the scale models build up, I believe the map lists the name of every city.  However, when it gets to Sunspear (or, really, the Water Gardens), it just says "Dorne".  I guess they're not really mentioning the rest of Dorne so they don't feel the need to distinguish, or something.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #377 on: June 08, 2015, 12:30:00 pm »
0

Well... I would probably call this the best episode of the series. I think I haven't been this touched by a piece of film in over five years.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #378 on: June 08, 2015, 12:57:26 pm »
+1

Okay, it's back to horrible.

Well... I would probably call this the best episode of the series. I think I haven't been this touched by a piece of film in over five years.
Are we watching the same thing?


edit: To clarify I could take burning nice little girls and terrible fight scenes where the villains surround the hero and then attack one at the time for no reason whatsoever if there were any redeeming qualities. Of which there were none.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 12:58:47 pm by Eevee »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #379 on: June 08, 2015, 12:58:38 pm »
0

Okay, it's back to horrible.

Well... I would probably call this the best episode of the series. I think I haven't been this touched by a piece of film in over five years.
Are we watching the same thing?
dunno. can you explain what you found horrible about the episode without including anything from the book?

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #380 on: June 08, 2015, 01:05:22 pm »
0

Jorah having greyscale and touching people, including Dany, left and right. Why? Naturally he also survived being pinned to the ground without a weapon because why would you watch your back in a last man standing fight to death?


THE FIGHT SCENE AT THE END. Where were all their throwing spears once they surrounded Dany? Did they go to the same fighting school than James Bond villains that only allows attacking one at the time after you've surrounded your opponent? And for that matter, for such elite fighters, the Unsullied sure never seem to win any fights.

If I was only a show watcher, I'm pretty sure I'd be pulling for the white walkers at this point.

edit: Of course I'm exaggerating a little bit, I just watched the episode and I'm upset. A non hyperbole opinion: The quality has declined a saddening amount from seasons 1-3. My hopes for the future aren't very high, I can't think of a storyline I'm excited about right now.

edit2: While the Dorne stuff wasn't as bad this episode, some of the most powerful scenes/speeches are placed there in the books. The current show depiction is very bad (and Jaime's and Bronn's mission there of course makes no sense whatsoever). I am holding some hope for Dorne scenes in the finale episode though.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 01:28:24 pm by Eevee »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #381 on: June 08, 2015, 01:37:49 pm »
0

Jorah having greyscale and touching people, including Dany, left and right. Why?
It's never explained in the show exactly how the disease is transferred. Shireen has it too, and she's touching people all the time. I'm guessing that, in the novel, she can touch people because in her case the disease could be contained, whereas it is still 'running' on Jorah's body and the stonemen's. But that doesn't make it a logical inconsistency, just a small deviation from the books. It could easily be that touching other people isn't dangerous in early stages - in fact, that's what I had assumed instinctively. I never thought that Jorah couldn't touch people anymore.

Naturally he also survived being pinned to the ground without a weapon because why would you watch your back in a last man standing fight to death?
Dunno, being stabbed from behind in a tournament didn't break my suspension of disbelief, but I can see your point.

THE FIGHT SCENE AT THE END. Where were all their throwing spears once they surrounded Dany?
Okay, this is the only point where I think I agree with you, although I was too invested to notice it at the time.

Did they go to the same fighting school than James Bond villains that only allows attacking one at the time after you've surrounded your opponent?
Attacking at once would certainly have been the strategically superior decision - but whoever attacks first is probably dead, and they're not elite warriors, they're a bunch of fanatical rebels. I mean, I don't know enough about mass psychology in fight situations to make an informed judgement, but to me it made a ton of sense. I would've certainly listed it as one of the great things about the episode.

And for that matter, for such elite fighters, the Unsullied sure never seem to win any fights.
Well, I'm assuming this isn't a real complaint, they were largely outnumbered and it's made pretty clear during the last two relevant fight scenes that one unsullied is worth more than one son of the harpy in direct combat.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #382 on: June 08, 2015, 01:42:41 pm »
0

I had trouble with the escape scene, in that I felt there was enough opening for one of them to get a projectile through to Dany.  I suppose, though, once Drogon came they were all distracted by the huge dragon.  I'm not certain how "unrealstic" the attacks were when they had the group surrounded.. in that the remaining fighters---Unsullied, Jorah, Darrio---are all strong enough fighters to take down the leads of any group that swarmed them.  However, the Sons of the Harpy have been depicted as particularly not afraid to die and attack recklessly in the past, so their caution here was a little odd. 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #383 on: June 08, 2015, 01:46:36 pm »
0

Shireen was cured of the disease, though she was left scarred.

I'm not watching the show yet, but I don't understand your point about "mass psychology".  If they are fanatical rebels, they should have no problem putting their lives in danger.  If the first to attack is sure to die, that's all the more reason for all to attack simultaneously!  Attacking one at a time means that the first to attack dies for no real benefit and the second to attack is in about the same position and sure to die, and so on until the target is worn out.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #384 on: June 08, 2015, 01:54:57 pm »
0

Shireen was cured of the disease, though she was left scarred.

I'm not watching the show yet, but I don't understand your point about "mass psychology".  If they are fanatical rebels, they should have no problem putting their lives in danger.  If the first to attack is sure to die, that's all the more reason for all to attack simultaneously!  Attacking one at a time means that the first to attack dies for no real benefit and the second to attack is in about the same position and sure to die, and so on until the target is worn out.

Isn't that a pretty naive generalization? You have no idea what kind of people are under the masks. Just because someone is fighting for a faction doesn't mean that he has no desire to live. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them are almost normal people who just believe in a strong tradition and consider danny to be evil.

But more importantly, it's less a question of daring so much as organization, which is what I really mean. The logical approach would be for someone to give the command and the rest of them to attack simultaneously, but they just weren't very well organized. Is that really hard to believe?

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #385 on: June 08, 2015, 01:55:33 pm »
0

Shireen was cured of the disease, though she was left scarred.

I'm not watching the show yet, but I don't understand your point about "mass psychology".  If they are fanatical rebels, they should have no problem putting their lives in danger.  If the first to attack is sure to die, that's all the more reason for all to attack simultaneously!  Attacking one at a time means that the first to attack dies for no real benefit and the second to attack is in about the same position and sure to die, and so on until the target is worn out.

Isn't that a pretty naive generalization? You have no idea what kind of people are under the masks. Just because someone is fighting for a faction doesn't mean that he has no desire to live. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them are almost normal people who just believe in a strong tradition and consider danny to be evil.

But more importantly, it's less a question of daring so much as organization, which is what I really mean. The logical approach would be for someone to give the command and the rest of them to attack simultaneously, but they just weren't very well organized. Is that really hard to believe?

Not in general, but based on the fighting style we've seen from them in the past, I found it a little odd.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #386 on: June 08, 2015, 02:00:31 pm »
0

Shireen was cured of the disease, though she was left scarred.

I'm not watching the show yet, but I don't understand your point about "mass psychology".  If they are fanatical rebels, they should have no problem putting their lives in danger.  If the first to attack is sure to die, that's all the more reason for all to attack simultaneously!  Attacking one at a time means that the first to attack dies for no real benefit and the second to attack is in about the same position and sure to die, and so on until the target is worn out.

Isn't that a pretty naive generalization? You have no idea what kind of people are under the masks. Just because someone is fighting for a faction doesn't mean that he has no desire to live. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them are almost normal people who just believe in a strong tradition and consider danny to be evil.

But more importantly, it's less a question of daring so much as organization, which is what I really mean. The logical approach would be for someone to give the command and the rest of them to attack simultaneously, but they just weren't very well organized. Is that really hard to believe?

I can imagine initial hesitation.  But after one person builds up the courage to attack, I'd expect the rest of the mob to follow in a flood.  Safety in numbers, no better opportunity. Those who are less certain would be forced to move forward anyway due to the press from behind.

But again, I haven't watched the show.  Maybe it's staged to make more sense.  Comments from others don't make that likely though.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #387 on: June 08, 2015, 02:03:08 pm »
0

This is as much a complaint to the books as it is to the show, but Dany is just an annoying character, period. Everyone else in the universe has a legit chance to get got at any turn, but she always has her dragon ex machinas saving her (because we've been introduced to this other half of the world only because she is there and because dragonnsssss, she just can't die). I guess I'm a little upset that the person I was most rooting for just burned his daughter. Who to root for next?

Fwiw, these last two episodes we've largely surpassed the books. Bookreaders for the most part don't know where the story is going next (with a few exceptions of course), or had no idea of the big twists in the past two episodes.

I guess Shireen will be burnt in the book as well? Maybe without the knowledge of Stannis though? If it goes even remotely the same way, I think it's safe to assume he'll be needing a new hand. Hizdah not being the Harpy also confirmed now.

edit: HIS daughter. Eh.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 02:27:46 pm by Eevee »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #388 on: June 08, 2015, 02:07:42 pm »
0

Eh, I think the fight between John and the White Walker in the last episode was way more unrealistic than anything here. He could have killed him several times if he hadn't hesitated. That broke my suspension immediately, even though I wanted John to survive. This honestly seems like searching for something to dislike to me. I could of course be biased because I don't care as much for John though.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #389 on: June 08, 2015, 02:09:35 pm »
0

This is as much a complaint to the books as it is to the show, but Dany is just an annoying character, period. Everyone else in the universe has a legit chance to get got at any turn, but she always has her dragon ex machinas saving her (because we've been introduced to this other half of the world only because she is there and because dragonnsssss, she just can't die). I guess I'm a little upset that the person I was most rooting for just burned her daughter. Who to root for next?

Fwiw, these last two episodes we've largely surpassed the books. Bookreaders for the most part don't know where the story is going next (with a few exceptions of course), or had no idea of the big twists in the past two episodes.

I guess Shireen will be burnt in the book as well? Maybe without the knowledge of Stannis though? If it goes even remotely the same way, I think it's safe to assume he'll be needing a new hand. Hizdah not being the Harpy also confirmed now.

Davos is Azor Ahai!!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #390 on: June 08, 2015, 02:10:35 pm »
0

Eh, I think the fight between John and the White Walker in the last episode was way more unrealistic than anything here. He could have killed him several times if he hadn't hesitated. That broke my suspension immediately, even though I wanted John to survive. This honestly seems like searching for something to dislike to me. I could of course be biased because I don't care as much for John though.

Well, the part where Jon was digging for the dragon glass, and the White Walker picked him up and threw him across the room instead of simply killing him.  That was the worst one.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #391 on: June 08, 2015, 02:18:35 pm »
0

I don't really care for any action scenes in anything, ever. The battle of the wall was amazing though, probably my all time favorite in all of film.

This season the Sand Snake fighting scenes were undeniably the worst.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #392 on: June 08, 2015, 02:22:29 pm »
0

I don't really care for any action scenes in anything, ever. The battle of the wall was amazing though, probably my all time favorite in all of film.

This season the Sand Snake fighting scenes were undeniably the worst.

Sorry, Mountain vs. Oberyn was awesome.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #393 on: June 08, 2015, 02:22:59 pm »
0

I guess I'm a little upset that the person I was most rooting for just burned her daughter.

Oh hai book readers are not welcome in this thread anymore I see.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #394 on: June 08, 2015, 02:24:23 pm »
+2

I guess I'm a little upset that the person I was most rooting for just burned her daughter.

Oh hai book readers are not welcome in this thread anymore I see.

Plot twist, Lady Stoneheart suddenly appeared in this episode, made her way up to Winterfell, and burned Sansa alive.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #395 on: June 08, 2015, 02:25:10 pm »
0

I don't really care for any action scenes in anything, ever. The battle of the wall was amazing though, probably my all time favorite in all of film.
how does this make sense?  ???

I usually don't care about action, because usually there is no suspense. It's different in this show, which is why I enjoy fight scenes in GoT.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #396 on: June 08, 2015, 04:21:11 pm »
+1

This season I have been largely okay with the large-scale, overarching beats of the story (Sansa/Boltons excepted, they've got one more episode to justify it), but incredibly disappointed by the execution. Jaime in Dorne? Sure, why not! My book-reader soul is not tarnished by this. But then...nonsense. Shireen burning? I can completely see Book Stannis doing this down the road. But less than one episode of buildup about how ****ed his army is? That wasn't enough. Sure, we got the "you'll betray everything you'll hold dear" and "OMG Shireen is so ded" foreshadowing, so I was expecting it, but why it happened now, at that moment, was incredibly poorly shown.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #397 on: June 08, 2015, 04:24:24 pm »
0

Well, the attack from Ramsay was supposed to indicate that things had gone  from bad to hopeless, but I agree that the pacing made it feel too quick.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #398 on: June 08, 2015, 04:38:15 pm »
0

I guess I'm a little upset that the person I was most rooting for just burned her daughter.

Oh hai book readers are not welcome in this thread anymore I see.

Plot twist, Lady Stoneheart suddenly appeared in this episode, made her way up to Winterfell, and burned Sansa alive.

I didn't even notice the mistake. I was just complaining about the huge Schrodinger spoiler I just read.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #399 on: June 08, 2015, 04:55:58 pm »
0

Silicon Valley reference?  Score!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #400 on: June 08, 2015, 09:16:50 pm »
+1

Remember back in Season 2 where everyone was complaining that the show made Stannis too likeable?

No?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #401 on: June 08, 2015, 09:35:30 pm »
0

Yeah I only remember everyone on reddit, before stannis' rout of the wildlings, complaining that they always had to defend their love of stannis to their show watcher friends because the show gave stannis no redeeming qualities.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #402 on: June 09, 2015, 12:30:10 pm »
0

Shireen burning? I can completely see Book Stannis doing this down the road. But less than one episode of buildup about how ****ed his army is? That wasn't enough. Sure, we got the "you'll betray everything you'll hold dear" and "OMG Shireen is so ded" foreshadowing, so I was expecting it, but why it happened now, at that moment, was incredibly poorly shown.

Feeling more confident about this opinion after re-watching watching with my show-only roommate. He spent the entire scene asking "but why?????", and having to turn to me for explanation.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #403 on: June 09, 2015, 12:37:39 pm »
0

Remember back in Season 2 where everyone was complaining that the show made Stannis too likeable?

No?

Yeah I only remember everyone on reddit, before stannis' rout of the wildlings, complaining that they always had to defend their love of stannis to their show watcher friends because the show gave stannis no redeeming qualities.

Maybe I got it backwards?  I thought a lot of people were complaining (back when Stannis was introduced) that the show didn't portray Stannis as hard and cruel as he is in the books.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #404 on: June 09, 2015, 12:55:40 pm »
+2

I just caught up with Arya's story in Dance with Dragons.  It continues to be my favorite storyline.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #405 on: June 10, 2015, 12:25:22 am »
0

I just caught up with Arya's story in Dance with Dragons.  It continues to be my favorite storyline.

I haven't watched the show since early season 2, but reading the books I find myself always looking forward to the chapters about Arya.  She is by far my favorite.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #406 on: June 10, 2015, 04:33:02 am »
0

Same here, big Arya fan in both the show and the books. Just yesterday I was talking about the show with two friends (who haven't touched the books), and I was really surprised when one said he stopped following the show after season 3 because "watching that little Stark girl wander around pointlessly got too boring" and the other who still watches replied "yeah, it has gotten even worse since then, she has wandered around pointlessly even more and now she is selling clams or something".
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #407 on: June 14, 2015, 10:32:25 pm »
0

So, show readers are now essentially caught up to book readers, except for a bit left of Arya's story, and a little fiddling around in Oldtown (this is assuming they've dropped the Greyjoy plot entirely).
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #408 on: June 15, 2015, 08:18:57 am »
0

Arya was awesome in the finale~
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #409 on: June 15, 2015, 10:38:49 am »
0

So this means that those of us who have not read the books can now read this thread? I mean, there would be spoilers for the books, of course, but I have so many other books to read that a book series I mostly watched on television is pretty low on my priority list. Sorry, George, but it's true.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #410 on: June 15, 2015, 10:59:43 am »
0

Thoughts:

Anyone think Melisandre returning to Castle Black is highly suggestive of her having something to do with Jon's "revival"?  The book seems to hint that something like this will happen; the show seems to be setting it up as well.

Also, while watching I had thought they were going to do something with the long shot of the blood spilling, like have it start smoking or somehow indicate the AA prophecy, but the show didn't go very heavy on prophecies.

I thought it was an odd change to have Sam suggest leaving instead of Jon sending him away, but actually I like it.  It shows Sam as taking a bit more charge of what he wants and what he thinks is best.  Also, really happy that Oldtown will get back into the story.

At first during the walk of shame, I thought Cersei looked too regal and too much like she was still in charge of everything.  She didn't look scared or intimidated at all.  But I guess that makes sense, and her breakdown during the walk I think worked.  I think they did a good job with it.

Varys in Mereen was a bit of a surprise, because that means he's not where he is in the books.  But I guess we knew he was traveling that direction.  I'm guessing what happens at the end of A Dance with Dragons will happen in the show, just at a different time.

Arya was still my favorite scene.  Once they showed Meryn Trant, I was thinking, "Shit's about to get real awesome real fast."

This season had some pacing issues, but overall I liked it.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #411 on: June 15, 2015, 11:00:18 am »
0

So this means that those of us who have not read the books can now read this thread? I mean, there would be spoilers for the books, of course, but I have so many other books to read that a book series I mostly watched on television is pretty low on my priority list. Sorry, George, but it's true.

I highly recommend the books; I think they're very well written.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #412 on: June 15, 2015, 11:47:00 am »
0

So this means that those of us who have not read the books can now read this thread? I mean, there would be spoilers for the books, of course, but I have so many other books to read that a book series I mostly watched on television is pretty low on my priority list. Sorry, George, but it's true.

I highly recommend the books; I think they're very well written.

Of that I have no doubt, but I can only fit so many books into my lifetime. I've read 2.5 books of Discworld, and I'd like to read more. And I would choose to read Wild Cards over Game of Thrones simply because of the subject matter.

With so many great literary options, I have to pare things down a bit, and books made into movies/TV shows are more likely to get the ax, though exceptions do exist (e.g., Starship Troopers).

I may change my mind later, especially if my wife decides to get the books and put them on our shelves. That's always a possibility.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #413 on: June 15, 2015, 11:51:30 am »
0

I've read 2.5 books of Discworld, and I'd like to read more.

READ THEM ALL

NOW
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #414 on: June 15, 2015, 12:08:11 pm »
0

So this means that those of us who have not read the books can now read this thread? I mean, there would be spoilers for the books, of course, but I have so many other books to read that a book series I mostly watched on television is pretty low on my priority list. Sorry, George, but it's true.

Not completely. There's 2-3 storylines from the books that haven't been introduced yet, not sure if they're being cut (doubt it) or just added in different seasons. There's also definitely some fan theories that are 95% true that contain major spoilers about the direction of the series (which hasn't happened either in the books). I'd say the theory is a bigger problem, once you see it, it makes so much sense and spoils a lot of future content.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #415 on: June 15, 2015, 01:27:25 pm »
0

I very much enjoyed the finale, though it did cement my opinion about the season - excellent big-picture plot choices, terrible execution.

I agree that, in the show at least, Melisandre is 100% reviving John.

As far as reading this thread/book readers still knowing spoilers, TA is right that it's mostly theories that will be spoilers now. The books have the freedom to sprinkle in lots of world-building and foreshadowing that, in some instances, sets up very clearly where certain plotlines are going to go. So book readers could be wrong, and certainly will be in some cases, but for the most part still know some significant information that could spoil the show.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #416 on: June 15, 2015, 02:13:07 pm »
+1

My thoughts here: http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/15/game-of-thrones-fifth-season-was-too-dam

I wasn't a huge fan, to say the least.
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werothegreat

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #417 on: June 15, 2015, 02:23:52 pm »
0

My thoughts here: http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/15/game-of-thrones-fifth-season-was-too-dam

I wasn't a huge fan, to say the least.

I think it was the right amount of depressing.

Good stories do not come from everything going according to plan.  Good stories do not come from easy choices.  They come from hard choices, they come from things going wrong, they come from permanently fucking things up in a way that has dire consequences.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #418 on: June 15, 2015, 02:33:07 pm »
+1

My thoughts here: http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/15/game-of-thrones-fifth-season-was-too-dam

I wasn't a huge fan, to say the least.

I think it was the right amount of depressing.

Good stories do not come from everything going according to plan.  Good stories do not come from easy choices.  They come from hard choices, they come from things going wrong, they come from permanently fucking things up in a way that has dire consequences.

This is a good comment thread on reddit that echoes my thoughts on the subject (book spoilers):
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/39vrp7/spoilers_all_the_real_difference_between_the_show/cs6x6kl

In the book, LSH/Frey Pies/Wyman Manderly's speech offer hope.  I don't see hope in the TV show.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #419 on: June 15, 2015, 02:54:09 pm »
0

My thoughts here: http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/15/game-of-thrones-fifth-season-was-too-dam

I wasn't a huge fan, to say the least.

I think it was the right amount of depressing.

Good stories do not come from everything going according to plan.  Good stories do not come from easy choices.  They come from hard choices, they come from things going wrong, they come from permanently fucking things up in a way that has dire consequences.

This is a good comment thread on reddit that echoes my thoughts on the subject (book spoilers):
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/39vrp7/spoilers_all_the_real_difference_between_the_show/cs6x6kl

In the book, LSH/Frey Pies/Wyman Manderly's speech offer hope.  I don't see hope in the TV show.

Yeah, I agree 100%. That's basically exactly what I wrote, or tried to write, in my review.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #420 on: June 15, 2015, 05:35:48 pm »
+2

Cool article, Robz. I agree with everything you're saying. This season was too brutal. It's violence/brutality for the point of violence/brutality, not for the point of the story.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #421 on: June 15, 2015, 06:13:52 pm »
0

Cool article, Robz. I agree with everything you're saying. This season was too brutal. It's violence/brutality for the point of violence/brutality, not for the point of the story.

Thanks for reading! I do appreciate it.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #422 on: June 15, 2015, 10:50:27 pm »
+1

Just watched the finale. I have some thoughts. Which I will try give without mentioning the books.

Dorne: Let's just get this part out of the way. Nothing makes sense here. Ellaria wants to kill Myrcella to start a war with the Lannisters because Oberyn is dead but also bad blood between those families for a long time. Sort of shaky but ok. So she sneaks into Myrcellas room and steals her necklace and sends it to Cersei with a threatening letter and doesnt just, I don't know, kill her then. Poison her in her sleep? Ok, anyway ... forget it. Not worth it. One stupid plot contrivance after another, terrible writing. The acting might have been terrible, but I can't imagine any actor good enough to deliver that dialogue well. End result is probably important to the plot, but it just felt like a total waste. At least we got a nice scene between Jaime and Myrcella before it went all nose-bleedy. Which just seals the utter pointlessness of this story.

Arya: I like Arya. I think too many people relish her juvenile vigilantism instead of realizing just how tragic of a character she is, but whatever. I like her adventures in Bravos. I just really struggle to see how anything she does has real significance to the plot. I feel this way about the book plot, too, but it's even worse here where we don't get insight into the real influence of the faceless men and the iron bank. Her blinding and really the whole scene at the end was a fun twist, and it'll be nice to see how it plays out in the show new season. I just wish I had the sense of it going somewhere on the grand stage the show is set up for everywhere else. I mean, I get the same feeling with the Dany plot, but at least I know once she's ready to move on to Westeros, her impact will be felt at a massive scale. Oh also Meryn Trant wasn't evil enough before? Now we have to add physical child abuse. Then again, that scene probably would have been more disturbing had he been ready to sexually assault Arya.

Essos: Looks promising going forward. Jorah and Dario will be a fun buddy team. And Tyrion gets to rule with Varys! Wait why did it take so long for Varys to get to Mereen? He didn't get shipwrecked and captured by slavers and forced to fight in pits and also how did he get past security and sidle on up to Tyrion like that and ... actually I don't care. I'll take all the plot contrivance in the world if it means more of those two. And Kelly C runs into some dothraki. I'm sure she'll be invading Westero's any day now.

Cersei: Fantastic scene. Lena Headley is amazing at showing such a powerful range of emotions through the smallest of facial expression changes. Her descent from calm and controlled, to rattled, to a complete break down almost made me pity her. Then I remembered how terrible of a person she is. And once Ser FrankenGregor picked her up, that wasn't the look of a woman who was going to accept her punishment.

Sansa: Total character regression for Sansa all season. I kept hoping they were building something up, but she ends up just being the damsel in distressed yet again. She had absolutely no agency. The most she did was break out of her room and light a candle hoping some unknown force would come save her. Instead, it's reek theon who does. I do really enjoy his arc now that we're done with the torture porn. Maybe it was sansa's words that brought him back, or maybe not. Really hard to tell. But either way, Theon ne Reek wins the MVP. The ending where they jump off the building was odd. They didn't make it clear that there was anyway they could survive such a fall. There's no way they just fall to their deaths. But by not showing them safe outside the walls they deny any real closure that plot line could give. By showing the jump and not the landing, they really are just giving the laziest of cliffhangers.

Stannis: Ok, book talk for one second. I know show stannis and book stannis are really different. But I actually really like the shows portrayal. He's not the mannis, but he is a wonderfully tragic character. A man driven by duty to claim what is rightfully his, sees the power the red woman offers and slowly gives her more control over his actions. He sees the real threat for what it is and his mission only grows more urgent. He needs to win not only for his right, but for the realm. As his situation grows more desperate, he leans more on the red womans magic. Eventually sacrificing his own daughter in the name of the greater good (and perhaps some of his own ambition). But this last act of a desperate man drives his wife to suicide and half his army to desertion. And at this point he knows he's lost. But he has no choice but to continue to trust the prophesy of the red woman, even as she herself abandons him in his lowest point. The unspeakable acts he committed cannot be in vain. Haunted by the dying screams of his only child, he marches towards his death. His army is routed and he finds himself alone. Perhaps thinking of how he had come to this point. Having lost everything, his wife, daughter, army, the red woman herself. And in the end, his life is taken in revenge of his brother's murder, his first betrayal. Wonderfully poetic justice.

Except we get ANOTHER cut to black before the death cliffhanger because one isn't enough. Fuck you, show.

Jon: The scene between Mel and Davos might have been my favorite of the episode, maybe the season. It was short, there was almost no dialogue, but the acting from both of those two was phenomenal. You could hear Davos' heart break. And the look on Mel's face was equally good. Doubt, maybe uncertainty. Those two seconds did more to humanize her than any previous scene. She was nothing but smugness and absolute certainty for 5 years. And now, everything she thought is gone.

And the moment we were all waiting for. Sam leaves for oldtown leaving Jon with very few friends on the wall. And the murders that make up the watch finally got to do what they're best at. I did think it was rushed a bit. Surely word of what happened at Hardhome had spread and people realized the threat they were up against. If, for instance, Jon agreed to send wildlings to help stannis take winterfell, that would have made a great 'final straw.' Yeah wildlings can help us fight the undead, but we are not giving them leave to invade our lands. I am mostly disappointed Alliser was there. He's a dick. He hates Jon. But he understands the threat they are up against, more than most. I actually felt it out of character that he would mutineer. Regardless, we finally get a surefire, no cut to black, death. Until Mel revives him.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 10:58:48 pm by jonts26 »
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #423 on: June 16, 2015, 12:29:02 am »
0

I'll say this much: That fire god (don't know the actual name) is just not that impressive. Oh sure, it was great for murdering Renly, but when Stannis sacrificed royal blood to the god, what was his reward? Warmer weather. Not a rampaging demon. Not an army of fire soldiers. Not even a streak of fire lancing from the sky to sunder Winterfell. Just the right conditions to continue marching, which he can't do at full strength anyway because half his forces freaked out at following a man who would sacrifice his daughter.

I am not impressed with that god anymore.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #424 on: June 16, 2015, 12:30:40 am »
+2

Though I completely agree with the hope/no-hope distinction, I want to say that LSH is not hope. She is a tragic corruption of Catelyn. I strongly dislike her as a character, though she is somewhat enjoyable to read about.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #425 on: June 16, 2015, 11:32:04 am »
0

Just watched the finale. I have some thoughts. Which I will try give without mentioning the books.

<thoughts>

Interesting.  I like the thoughts, though I'm not sure the Dorne thing is as bad as you're presenting it.  Is it really that different from what happened in the books?  Presumably, it's easier to steal a necklace from someone than it is to murder them, and even so, I don't think Ellaria originally wanted to kill her.  She was willing to, but I think her goal was to draw the Lannisters into a war.  Otherwise, why send the threat?  I might have to review the corresponding book plot.

Well, maybe she does want to kill Myrcella just out of vengeance or spite, but she really wants more than just Myrcella.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #426 on: June 16, 2015, 12:19:17 pm »
0

Interesting.  I like the thoughts, though I'm not sure the Dorne thing is as bad as you're presenting it.  Is it really that different from what happened in the books?  Presumably, it's easier to steal a necklace from someone than it is to murder them, and even so, I don't think Ellaria originally wanted to kill her.  She was willing to, but I think her goal was to draw the Lannisters into a war.  Otherwise, why send the threat?  I might have to review the corresponding book plot.


Perhaps it's an attempt to look like the wronged party?

If Dorne sends a necklace, and the Lannisters freak out and wage war, then Dorne tells the world, "We thought her mother would like her necklace back; we didn't mean anything by it. Those Lannisters are brutes!" Meanwhile, they get to kill Lannisters.

And she did almost get to feign innocence when Jamie snuck into their country and killed a few Dornish people. But then war was averted, and Dorne could no longer enter a war while claiming to be the victim. So flat-out murder it is.

Just a possible perspective. I've not read the books, so take that with a grain of salt.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #427 on: June 16, 2015, 12:57:56 pm »
+1

I'm really curious how they'll make Doran an interesting character in the show. It's a bit late for him to reveal that he had plans with Dany all the time.
I really don't get the changes to this storyline.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #428 on: June 16, 2015, 01:03:09 pm »
0

Interesting.  I like the thoughts, though I'm not sure the Dorne thing is as bad as you're presenting it.  Is it really that different from what happened in the books?  Presumably, it's easier to steal a necklace from someone than it is to murder them, and even so, I don't think Ellaria originally wanted to kill her.  She was willing to, but I think her goal was to draw the Lannisters into a war.  Otherwise, why send the threat?  I might have to review the corresponding book plot.


Perhaps it's an attempt to look like the wronged party?

If Dorne sends a necklace, and the Lannisters freak out and wage war, then Dorne tells the world, "We thought her mother would like her necklace back; we didn't mean anything by it. Those Lannisters are brutes!" Meanwhile, they get to kill Lannisters.

And she did almost get to feign innocence when Jamie snuck into their country and killed a few Dornish people. But then war was averted, and Dorne could no longer enter a war while claiming to be the victim. So flat-out murder it is.

Just a possible perspective. I've not read the books, so take that with a grain of salt.

It was a pretty obvious threat, though. 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #429 on: June 16, 2015, 01:11:14 pm »
0

Interesting.  I like the thoughts, though I'm not sure the Dorne thing is as bad as you're presenting it.  Is it really that different from what happened in the books?  Presumably, it's easier to steal a necklace from someone than it is to murder them, and even so, I don't think Ellaria originally wanted to kill her.  She was willing to, but I think her goal was to draw the Lannisters into a war.  Otherwise, why send the threat?  I might have to review the corresponding book plot.


Perhaps it's an attempt to look like the wronged party?

If Dorne sends a necklace, and the Lannisters freak out and wage war, then Dorne tells the world, "We thought her mother would like her necklace back; we didn't mean anything by it. Those Lannisters are brutes!" Meanwhile, they get to kill Lannisters.

And she did almost get to feign innocence when Jamie snuck into their country and killed a few Dornish people. But then war was averted, and Dorne could no longer enter a war while claiming to be the victim. So flat-out murder it is.

Just a possible perspective. I've not read the books, so take that with a grain of salt.

It was a pretty obvious threat, though.

IIRC, in the books, the point was that Dorne cannot win an offensive war, so the Sand Snakes were trying to provoke the Lannisters into attacking the Dornish Marches (and further inwards), where they would have the advantage. Doran wasn't very hot on the idea, because he thought that they would lose a defensive war too.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #430 on: June 16, 2015, 01:22:39 pm »
0

Interesting.  I like the thoughts, though I'm not sure the Dorne thing is as bad as you're presenting it.  Is it really that different from what happened in the books?  Presumably, it's easier to steal a necklace from someone than it is to murder them, and even so, I don't think Ellaria originally wanted to kill her.  She was willing to, but I think her goal was to draw the Lannisters into a war.  Otherwise, why send the threat?  I might have to review the corresponding book plot.


Perhaps it's an attempt to look like the wronged party?

If Dorne sends a necklace, and the Lannisters freak out and wage war, then Dorne tells the world, "We thought her mother would like her necklace back; we didn't mean anything by it. Those Lannisters are brutes!" Meanwhile, they get to kill Lannisters.

And she did almost get to feign innocence when Jamie snuck into their country and killed a few Dornish people. But then war was averted, and Dorne could no longer enter a war while claiming to be the victim. So flat-out murder it is.

Just a possible perspective. I've not read the books, so take that with a grain of salt.

It was a pretty obvious threat, though.

IIRC, in the books, the point was that Dorne cannot win an offensive war, so the Sand Snakes were trying to provoke the Lannisters into attacking the Dornish Marches (and further inwards), where they would have the advantage. Doran wasn't very hot on the idea, because he thought that they would lose a defensive war too.

My impression from the books is that Doran simply had bigger plans that would have been disrupted if war broke out too early.
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #431 on: June 16, 2015, 02:09:34 pm »
0

My impression from the books is that Doran simply had bigger plans that would have been disrupted if war broke out too early.

Well, yes, but I don't know if that applies to the show. Especially considering that "plot" was kinda pointless.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #432 on: June 16, 2015, 02:12:27 pm »
0

uh... ow. argh. holy fuck.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #433 on: June 16, 2015, 02:29:13 pm »
0

 :'( :'( :'(

eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #434 on: July 06, 2015, 10:32:02 pm »
+2

I finally finished ADWD!  I'll probably start watching the show sometime soon.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #435 on: September 21, 2015, 12:17:54 am »
0

Started watching the show.  Almost at the end of Season 2, I just finished Blackwater.

I'm generally enjoying it, though there are some changes that don't really make sense to me.  Also surprised at how much they cut in favour of keeping up a good pace.  I guess the trouble is setting up reliably thrilling high points for the season's penultimate and final episodes.

I've also been reading the AV club reviews, both the newbie and expert versions.  The expert ones actually bother me a little, when the reviewer makes mistakes.  For example, he suggests that the book did not adequately explain why Theon's decision to take Winterfell was flawed and appreciated that the show explained it -- being a naval power, Pyke doesn't much care for landlocked Winterfell.  But I am like 97% sure that this exact reason was given in the book.  Or, for the episode I just watched, the reviewer wrote this:

Quote
In terms of the adaptation, the best thing “Blackwater” has going for it is that it’s able to take stuff Martin could only hint at given the point-of-view structure and directly depict it.  When the Hound comes back behind the walls of the city, face pale with terror, we can now directly see just what it was that caused him to shake so. It’s the oldest trick in the book to make a threat seem great by making the strongest man seem terrified, but it’s a trick that almost always works, and it makes Tyrion’s subsequent decision to lead the Lannisters into battle himself that much more powerful.

I may be reading it wrong, but it sounds like he's completely missing the fact that Clegane is frightened because of the fire, not any other part of the battle.  Because of that, it doesn't really speak to Tyrion's bravery at all.  The review also dismisses the book version when I think it was perfectly clear why the Hound ran.  It's also worth noting that the newbies reviewer did accurately understand the character's motivation.

But anyway, show's been fine.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #436 on: September 21, 2015, 12:32:31 am »
0

Yes, the Newbie AV reviews are much better in general. I quite like them.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #437 on: September 21, 2015, 07:47:44 pm »
0

Oh, also, I had always pronounced "Jaime" as "Jaym" in my head, one syllable, rather than "Jay-mee".  Huhhh.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #438 on: September 26, 2015, 12:11:59 am »
0

Watched "Walk of Punishment", wherein we first see Riverrun.  The AV Club experts review gave credit to the show for succinctly demonstrating Tully personalities in the opening scene, wherein Edmure fails twice at lighting Hoster Tully's floating pyre and the Blackfish takes the bow to do it himself in one shot, just before the raft floats out of range around a bend.  Once again, that is a scene from the book, not a show invention.

But the review also praises the small council seat-shuffling scene, and I pretty sure that one is a show invention.  And I really liked it.  Interestingly, the reviewer seems to suggest that Tyrion's act of dragging his seat to the end of the table demonstrates how, though he is still bound to them, he no longer feels love for his family after his father's rejection of his claim to Casterly Rock.  I guess the idea is that he's literally getting as far away from them as possible.  I actually interpreted it in a different way -- rather than being petty and going out of his way for a position near the head of the table, I thought he was making a point in setting himself directly opposite his father.  Yes, the "power" position is the head of the table, but the head is just another end, right?

Still, the awkward tension of that scene was wonderful.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #439 on: October 18, 2015, 03:11:45 am »
0

I am caught up.  That last season really deviated from the books, wow.  I also find it curious how some story lines are advanced beyond the books now while others are still kind of dragging.
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silverspawn

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #440 on: October 18, 2015, 03:35:16 am »
0

I am caught up.  That last season really deviated from the books, wow.  I also find it curious how some story lines are advanced beyond the books now while others are still kind of dragging.

... and? do you think the show got (substantially) worse during the last season?

eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #441 on: October 18, 2015, 10:45:55 am »
+2

I am caught up.  That last season really deviated from the books, wow.  I also find it curious how some story lines are advanced beyond the books now while others are still kind of dragging.

... and? do you think the show got (substantially) worse during the last season?

I think some adaptation choices were questionable, but it wasn't substantially worse.  Even with some of the big changes, I thought they were well done.  I really liked Hardhome.

One of the worst things was that the Dorne plot.  It suffered from another major book plot being excised.

The Winterfell changes lose out on some interesting conspiracies and mysteries, plus the life of a certain bard.

Also, no Strong Belwas. :(

Still, I give it a pass.
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #442 on: October 18, 2015, 04:38:54 pm »
0

I was just wondering the other day. I've not read the books, and I certainly didn't read them as they were released, so I'm curious about people who have.

I presume that like the first season of the show, the first book warned that winter is coming. And while there were hints, winter hasn't yet come. Considering how long it took for books to come out, wasn't that at least a little frustrating? Though per the show, it looks like the walkers are finally ready to invade. Is that the case in the books too?
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #443 on: October 18, 2015, 04:56:47 pm »
+2

I was just wondering the other day. I've not read the books, and I certainly didn't read them as they were released, so I'm curious about people who have.

I presume that like the first season of the show, the first book warned that winter is coming. And while there were hints, winter hasn't yet come. Considering how long it took for books to come out, wasn't that at least a little frustrating? Though per the show, it looks like the walkers are finally ready to invade. Is that the case in the books too?

It's more clear in the books that the seasons are different than ours, long and irregular: winter is something that can last for decades and not come again for decades.  So winters are dangerous and ominous, and the "is coming" phase lasts years. 

It's also, of course, a metaphor for a lot more, including the incoming doom of the walkers.  Maybe that's what you were referring to with the "hasn't yet come".  But I think that's okay; I like these things to build longer.  So spoilers:

The show has gone farther than the books with the White Walker story line: Hardhome didn't happen, though there was an analogous thing that happened off screen (out of point-of-view).  (At least, I think; it's been a bit.)  Also we didn't get a scene like a White Walker bringing a baby to a "council".  However, the impending threat feeling is more-or-less the same, just not really shown.  We know (from reports) that there is an army amassing; and there are a lot of vague hints/reports on what's happening up on the east coast above the wall.  (Eastwatch by the Sea, which is where Hardhome is.  Jon sent people there to rescue the wildlings instead of going himself.)
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #444 on: October 18, 2015, 07:48:59 pm »
+1

From the books, I get the sense that there are seasons within seasons.  When they say "Winter is coming", I think of that "Winter" like a mini Ice Age.  As I understand it, they get long periods of Winter and Summer of indeterminate length, but even within the Summer you get seasons more like what we see in our world (which they don't refer to as Winter or Summer, since those terms apply to the longer "seasons").  Winter is thus a major shift, so it makes sense that it would take a while for it to arrive. 

All throughout the book, you do get the ominous sense that it is almost arrived.  Summer officially ends in the second book (as marked by the maesters), and it's noted that it lasted 10 years, so probably Autumn could take a while as well.

So no, I didn't find it frustrating.  The background was set up properly and all the characters talk about the nature of the seasons appropriately so that I had the right expectations going in.
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AJD

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #445 on: October 18, 2015, 11:10:23 pm »
0

From the books, I get the sense that there are seasons within seasons.  When they say "Winter is coming", I think of that "Winter" like a mini Ice Age.  As I understand it, they get long periods of Winter and Summer of indeterminate length, but even within the Summer you get seasons more like what we see in our world (which they don't refer to as Winter or Summer, since those terms apply to the longer "seasons").

As far as I can tell, this is a widespread fan theory with little to no support in the text itself.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #446 on: October 18, 2015, 11:12:18 pm »
0

From the books, I get the sense that there are seasons within seasons.  When they say "Winter is coming", I think of that "Winter" like a mini Ice Age.  As I understand it, they get long periods of Winter and Summer of indeterminate length, but even within the Summer you get seasons more like what we see in our world (which they don't refer to as Winter or Summer, since those terms apply to the longer "seasons").

As far as I can tell, this is a widespread fan theory with little to no support in the text itself.

I never read this fan theory.  It's just the sense I got from the text.  Maybe I independently came up with this idea on my own based on nothing, but there must be something in the text that inspired the idea in me and other readers.  I do vaguely recall reading passages about summer snows and such.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #447 on: October 19, 2015, 01:39:33 am »
0

The "Year of the False Spring" was a year of non-snowy winter that happened at some point. It's when one of the important tournaments in the backstory happened.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #448 on: October 19, 2015, 05:35:15 am »
0

I'm watching this from the beginning with a girl who hasn't seen it before, we got through the first 8 episodes yesterday.

Man was the first season good.
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silverspawn

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #449 on: October 19, 2015, 09:16:03 am »
0

I'm watching this from the beginning with a girl who hasn't seen it before, we got through the first 8 episodes yesterday.

Man was the first season good.

almost as good as the fifth!

Eevee

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #450 on: October 19, 2015, 09:35:42 am »
0

I'm watching this from the beginning with a girl who hasn't seen it before, we got through the first 8 episodes yesterday.

Man was the first season good.

almost as good as the fifth!
It's hard to believe it's the same people making it. I'm interested in seeing exactly when does it fall of a cliff.

No scenes of talking to the skull of a dead Lord Commander season 1, I can tell you that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #451 on: November 16, 2015, 05:31:37 am »
0

Okay, we are halfway through season 5 now, and I must admit, I was too hard on this season. There are some serious terrible low points, like the whole Dorne plot, but overall it's much more exciting than I remembered. I think it's that I'm further from reading the books now than I was at the time, so it bothers me less than some of the storylines are different (and worse) than in the books.

Or maybe it's just lower expectations resulting in a better experience, either way I'm not seeing the drastic drop in quality in season 5 I was expecting. Is season 6 coming out in March again?
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #452 on: November 16, 2015, 09:25:35 am »
0

Okay, we are halfway through season 5 now, and I must admit, I was too hard on this season. There are some serious terrible low points, like the whole Dorne plot, but overall it's much more exciting than I remembered. I think it's that I'm further from reading the books now than I was at the time, so it bothers me less than some of the storylines are different (and worse) than in the books.

Or maybe it's just lower expectations resulting in a better experience, either way I'm not seeing the drastic drop in quality in season 5 I was expecting. Is season 6 coming out in March again?

I think it's going to be delayed a little bit; starting in April I believe.

I agree that the Dorne subplot was not done very well for the show.  However, I think the season was still great, and there were some really great parts.  And,  heck, we get to see Bronn some more, and he's awesome. 
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2.71828.....

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #453 on: March 13, 2016, 03:57:15 pm »
+3

So, I know season 6 of Game of Thrones is coming out shortly, and Winds of Winter won't be coming out probably for a good while yet.  Regardless, I have recently just reread the first 5 books, and while I am woefully behind on the show and probably won't catch up anytime soon I am interested in sharing some theories (well, just one theory) that I have about the books.

Before I do any of that, you all should know that I don't spend any time on other forums really except here, and I have no clue what fan-theories and everything exist.

That being said, does anyone else agree with me that Jaime and Cersei are NOT actually Lannisters, but rather Targaryens?  Here are relevant passages from the books:

A Feast of Crows, chapter 33 at the end, Jaime is talking with his Aunt, the Lady Genna discussing Tywin's death and other things:

Quote
"Tywin was big even when he was little." She [Lady Genna] gave a sigh. "Who will protect us now?"
Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."
"Aye, he did.  That is what I fear the most, in truth."
That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?"
"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast.  You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak...but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you.  I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.  Men are such thundering great fools.  Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."

Then we have a passage from A Dance with Dragons, chapter 43, Daenerys is asking Sir Barristan to tell he about her father, and we get this:

Quote
"Prince Aerys...as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister.  When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord's right to the first night had been abolished.  A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the...the liberties your father took during the bedding." His [Barristan's] face reddened. "I have said too much, Your Grace. I--" 

Then they are cut off by stupid annoying Hizdahr zo Loraq and the story continues.

Now I assume the nether regions of the Internet have probably already grasped onto these and have discussed this theory, but since I don't explore those other places I am interested in what you think.

I mean, why else does [did] Tywin hate Tyrion so much?  Tyrion is actually his only son.  And giving birth to Tyrion killed Joanna.  This also "explains" the incest between Jaime and Cersei.  It also makes sense for how I see GRRM writing the story.  Everyone thinks the Targaryens are all dead, then we have them popping up all over the place (Aegon Targaryen still alive and well and coming back to Westeros at the end of A Dance with Dragons).  Then we have the Starks who are all supposed dead except Sansa, but the only ones who are truly dead are Ned and Robb (unless Lady Stoneheart doesn't count as being alive). 

But I really like the idea that Jaime and Cersei are actually Targaryen, except I don't see how that could be proven in future books as everyone who would give proof that their father was mad King Aerys are all dead.
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #454 on: March 13, 2016, 04:36:52 pm »
0

But I really like the idea that Jaime and Cersei are actually Targaryen, except I don't see how that could be proven in future books as everyone who would give proof that their father was mad King Aerys are all dead.

Further evidence is the "madness" that afflicted Joffrey being very similar to that as described afflicting the Targaryens...
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silverspawn

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #455 on: March 13, 2016, 04:42:10 pm »
0

That's a really cool theory. The evidence does seem pretty convincing.

Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #456 on: March 13, 2016, 05:31:03 pm »
0

There's a popular theory that Tyrion is Aerys' son.
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Awaclus

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #457 on: March 13, 2016, 05:39:06 pm »
+2

There is also a popular theory that it is Moat, although not much evidence has been found so far.
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silverspawn

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #458 on: March 13, 2016, 05:59:15 pm »
0

There's a popular theory that Tyrion is Aerys' son.

Nah... that would be lame. I don't think that'll happen.

There is also a popular theory that it is Moat, although not much evidence has been found so far.

That might happen!

eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #459 on: March 13, 2016, 09:25:42 pm »
0

I read a bunch of the big theories back when I caught up on ASOIAF.... last summer, I think?  I don't remember reading this one.  I'd guess that somebody has made the connection before, but it hadn't caught on when I was looking into all the fan theories.

Your first quote doesn't really work for me, but the second and what yuma added makes sense.  That said, the second quote is also used to support the alternate theory mentioned by Watno, which is very popular.  And what yuma added could just be due to incest in general, not on specific qualities of the Targaryen line.
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #460 on: March 13, 2016, 09:34:28 pm »
0

  And what yuma added could just be due to incest in general, not on specific qualities of the Targaryen line.

My understanding of familial genetics, which I would theorize would also apply to the world of Martin if he does that sort of research, is that generally maladies from the first instance of incest rarely occur. It is only upon multiple cases spanning generations that it occurs. Although I think that research has primarily been directed to invest among cousins, not among siblings...
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #461 on: March 13, 2016, 09:39:26 pm »
0

  And what yuma added could just be due to incest in general, not on specific qualities of the Targaryen line.

My understanding of familial genetics, which I would theorize would also apply to the world of Martin if he does that sort of research, is that generally maladies from the first instance of incest rarely occur. It is only upon multiple cases spanning generations that it occurs. Although I think that research has primarily been directed to invest among cousins, not among siblings...

You may be right.  But then again, Joffrey's madness might not have been genetic, or he might have been that rare occurrence.  Joffrey's siblings seem fine, after all.
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #462 on: March 14, 2016, 08:13:58 pm »
0

  And what yuma added could just be due to incest in general, not on specific qualities of the Targaryen line.

My understanding of familial genetics, which I would theorize would also apply to the world of Martin if he does that sort of research, is that generally maladies from the first instance of incest rarely occur. It is only upon multiple cases spanning generations that it occurs. Although I think that research has primarily been directed to invest among cousins, not among siblings...

You may be right.  But then again, Joffrey's madness might not have been genetic, or he might have been that rare occurrence.  Joffrey's siblings seem fine, after all.

The fact that Joffrey's sibling are fine actually support the theory as most of the time the Targaryen madness doesn't afflict everyone in a family, but rather in rare occurrences.

Viserys seemed to be afflicted while Dany and Rhaegar were fine.
Maegor the Cruel was afflicted while his brother Aenys was also fine.
Aerion was severely afflicted while his brother Aegon was fine.

There are quite a few other examples, but honestly those Targaryen names are hard to remember and I quickly lose track of them.

I think a counter argument to this is the lack of violet eyes in Jamie, Cersie and their children, although there were apparently plenty of Targaryens who did not have those traits (for example the children of the Baratheon-Targaryan romance a few generations back from the main story looked far more Baratheon than Targaryen.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 10:22:37 pm by yuma »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #463 on: March 14, 2016, 10:28:04 pm »
+1

I feel like from a storytelling perspective, it doesn't really make sense to have Jaime/Cersei be Targaryens. One thing that drives the Lannisters is the aim to build a dynasty as great as the Targaryens. It would somehow feel wrong if it turns out that they have been Targaryens all along.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #464 on: March 15, 2016, 08:14:54 pm »
0

I like the Jamie and Cersei theory, especially for storytelling purposes.  It means both Tyrion and Jamie kill their own father, which is cute.  However, I think I remember looking into it and that the timeline didn't work out correctly.  The Mad King's comments about Tywin's wife could be a red herring to make you question Tyrion's father. 

We'll see, though.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #465 on: April 25, 2016, 08:45:38 am »
0

I'm not sure if it's because I don't want to like the show anmore, but there were some things in yesterday's episodes that i didn't think made much sense.

The Dorne storyline got even more stupid. (Really, suddenly everyone hates Doran?).
Dany also got out of bing raped pretty easy. Why wouldn't everyone just claim being a Khal's widow? Also, if that tradition is so important, why did noone tell Dany that she was  supposed to become a Dosh Khaleen when Drogo was about to die/died, or tried to enforce this?
Furthermore, they seem to have forgotten that nothing was said about Dany not having children until the sun sets in the east on the show. That line only refered to Drogo's return.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #466 on: April 25, 2016, 09:37:18 am »
0

I'm not sure if it's because I don't want to like the show anmore, but there were some things in yesterday's episodes that i didn't think made much sense.

The Dorne storyline got even more stupid. (Really, suddenly everyone hates Doran?).
Dany also got out of bing raped pretty easy. Why wouldn't everyone just claim being a Khal's widow? Also, if that tradition is so important, why did noone tell Dany that she was  supposed to become a Dosh Khaleen when Drogo was about to die/died, or tried to enforce this?
Furthermore, they seem to have forgotten that nothing was said about Dany not having children until the sun sets in the east on the show. That line only refered to Drogo's return.

Doran was unpopular because, externally, he's complacent to the Lannisters.  He was playing political games (more evident in books than in the show), but he couldn't well go and tell everyone this.  The Sand Snakes represented a larger dissatisfaction with Doran's policies.

I had thought the tradition involving a Khal's widow was stated before, when Khal Drogo was ill.  There wasn't a lot to enforce this when Khal Drogo died, though, as most of the riders had abandoned him before this point.  And, when he died, Dany walked into his funeral pyre.  And walked back out with dragons.  So I don't think the remaining Dothraki are going to insist she go on and kill herself after that.

The words of the 'prophecy' also references Daenrys' inability to have children:

Quote
When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before


Dany takes this to mean that she is unable to have children; the implication that her conceiving a child is of the same caliber of possibility as the sun rising in the west and setting in the east, the sea going dry, or the mountains blowing in the wind like leaves.  Notably, she could be wrong.  At any rate, this is not an error on the part of the show.  From Dany's PoV (in A Dance with Dragons I think):

Quote
When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. Only then would her womb quicken once again...

Also noticeable that, like most of these prophecies, the meaning need not be literal, and there are lots of things that could meet these conditions symbolically. 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #467 on: April 25, 2016, 11:55:00 am »
0

I'm not sure if it's because I don't want to like the show anmore, but there were some things in yesterday's episodes that i didn't think made much sense.

The Dorne storyline got even more stupid. (Really, suddenly everyone hates Doran?).
Dany also got out of bing raped pretty easy. Why wouldn't everyone just claim being a Khal's widow? Also, if that tradition is so important, why did noone tell Dany that she was  supposed to become a Dosh Khaleen when Drogo was about to die/died, or tried to enforce this?
Furthermore, they seem to have forgotten that nothing was said about Dany not having children until the sun sets in the east on the show. That line only refered to Drogo's return.

I don't know about the show, but Dany was very aware of the tradition that she was to become a Dosh Khaleen when Drogo died in the books. I can't remember exactly, but pretty certain in the book leading up to the pyre that she was fearful that her riders would force her there, which is one reason why she took such extreme measures in giving the gifts to her blood riders  (and also why they were hesitant in accepting them), and the only reason she wasn't forced to go was dragons after that funeral pyre when she proved herself as khaleesi.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #468 on: April 25, 2016, 12:03:03 pm »
0


Doran was unpopular because, externally, he's complacent to the Lannisters.  He was playing political games (more evident in books than in the show), but he couldn't well go and tell everyone this.  The Sand Snakes represented a larger dissatisfaction with Doran's policies.
I don't remember anyone except the Sandsnakes hating on Doran last season, they snuck into the palace and hid from the guards trying to kill Myrcella. If like all Dornish people where on their side, that would have been a lot easier.

Also there's no evidence of the Doran from the show having any plans. He's just a stupid character.


Quote

I had thought the tradition involving a Khal's widow was stated before, when Khal Drogo was ill.  There wasn't a lot to enforce this when Khal Drogo died, though, as most of the riders had abandoned him before this point.  And, when he died, Dany walked into his funeral pyre.  And walked back out with dragons.  So I don't think the remaining Dothraki are going to insist she go on and kill herself after that.

Well, if this is an important tradition, they wouldn't just leave the wife of the dying Khal.

Quote

The words of the 'prophecy' also references Daenrys' inability to have children:

Quote
When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before


The womb part isn't mentioned in the show, it's only in the books.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #469 on: April 25, 2016, 12:28:35 pm »
0


Doran was unpopular because, externally, he's complacent to the Lannisters.  He was playing political games (more evident in books than in the show), but he couldn't well go and tell everyone this.  The Sand Snakes represented a larger dissatisfaction with Doran's policies.
I don't remember anyone except the Sandsnakes hating on Doran last season, they snuck into the palace and hid from the guards trying to kill Myrcella. If like all Dornish people where on their side, that would have been a lot easier.

Also there's no evidence of the Doran from the show having any plans. He's just a stupid character.

I'm not sure why this is necessary.  I mean, the Dorne story line gets abrupted pretty hard (and maybe even ends up in a different spot, depending on whether the next book changes the way things are going or not), so a lot of development is missed out.  They could have maybe added some shots indicating an unsettled Dorn population or bring it up in dialogue before, but.. it was just brought up now.  So what's the problem?  I personally wouldn't mind the show to go through all the details, but it's a pretty big adaptation and they have to make cuts.

I would have liked to have seen a lot more from Dorne.  Though a lot of people didn't like that subplot of the books. 

Quote
Quote

I had thought the tradition involving a Khal's widow was stated before, when Khal Drogo was ill.  There wasn't a lot to enforce this when Khal Drogo died, though, as most of the riders had abandoned him before this point.  And, when he died, Dany walked into his funeral pyre.  And walked back out with dragons.  So I don't think the remaining Dothraki are going to insist she go on and kill herself after that.

Well, if this is an important tradition, they wouldn't just leave the wife of the dying Khal.

Didn't they leave after the blood magic?  Some wanted to kill her, and Jorah defended her.   

Quote
Quote

The words of the 'prophecy' also references Daenrys' inability to have children:

Quote
When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before


The womb part isn't mentioned in the show, it's only in the books.

The show never mentioned it?  Weird.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #470 on: April 25, 2016, 12:38:01 pm »
0


I'm not sure why this is necessary.  I mean, the Dorne story line gets abrupted pretty hard (and maybe even ends up in a different spot, depending on whether the next book changes the way things are going or not), so a lot of development is missed out.  They could have maybe added some shots indicating an unsettled Dorn population or bring it up in dialogue before, but.. it was just brought up now.  So what's the problem?  I personally wouldn't mind the show to go through all the details, but it's a pretty big adaptation and they have to make cuts.

I would have liked to have seen a lot more from Dorne.  Though a lot of people didn't like that subplot of the books. 
Nearly the whole population of Dorne being against Doran is inconsistent with what happened last season.
Quote
Quote
Quote
I had thought the tradition involving a Khal's widow was stated before, when Khal Drogo was ill.  There wasn't a lot to enforce this when Khal Drogo died, though, as most of the riders had abandoned him before this point.  And, when he died, Dany walked into his funeral pyre.  And walked back out with dragons.  So I don't think the remaining Dothraki are going to insist she go on and kill herself after that.

Well, if this is an important tradition, they wouldn't just leave the wife of the dying Khal.

Didn't they leave after the blood magic?  Some wanted to kill her, and Jorah defended her.   

So killing her is ok but rape isn't?
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #471 on: April 25, 2016, 12:44:29 pm »
0


I'm not sure why this is necessary.  I mean, the Dorne story line gets abrupted pretty hard (and maybe even ends up in a different spot, depending on whether the next book changes the way things are going or not), so a lot of development is missed out.  They could have maybe added some shots indicating an unsettled Dorn population or bring it up in dialogue before, but.. it was just brought up now.  So what's the problem?  I personally wouldn't mind the show to go through all the details, but it's a pretty big adaptation and they have to make cuts.

I would have liked to have seen a lot more from Dorne.  Though a lot of people didn't like that subplot of the books. 
Nearly the whole population of Dorne being against Doran is inconsistent with what happened last season.

I don't think the vast majority of the popularity of Dorne is not in support of Doran, but there is significant unsettlement.  But I don't see why it's a problem.  Because the guards were following Doran before? They are obviously going to continue following his orders until some point.  Or maybe a smaller group of them was positioned into the water gardens or wherever they were by co-conspirators.  I mean, a lot more could have been done here.  But it didn't have to be done.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
I had thought the tradition involving a Khal's widow was stated before, when Khal Drogo was ill.  There wasn't a lot to enforce this when Khal Drogo died, though, as most of the riders had abandoned him before this point.  And, when he died, Dany walked into his funeral pyre.  And walked back out with dragons.  So I don't think the remaining Dothraki are going to insist she go on and kill herself after that.

Well, if this is an important tradition, they wouldn't just leave the wife of the dying Khal.

Didn't they leave after the blood magic?  Some wanted to kill her, and Jorah defended her.   

So killing her is ok but rape isn't?

It is known.
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #472 on: April 26, 2016, 10:01:51 am »
0

It's hard to get into the mindset of the ruled people in Game of Thrones (or any fantasy setting). There is a fierce loyalty to the family name. Ramsey is in danger of losing Winterfell unless he can pop a seed in Sansa Stark, even though she's the weakest Stark (though as an aside, I'm hoping to see some serious growth in her now as she possibly shows the same traits as her mother). So Doran has the loyalty of an entire nation even though maybe they aren't satisfied with what he's doing. But he's the king, so they just accept it.

I found the episode a little dull and slow, but I think that makes sense for episode 1. You have to get the audience back up to speed. I was able to watch the previous episode. Man, I forgot so much, and watching that episode helped me get back on track. So hopefully the subsequent episodes will pick up steam.

So book fans and series fans are all on the same page now, right? The series is now into unwritten territory? I read someone complain that it's going to lose the richness of Martin's work. I don't know about that. These writers have immersed themselves into his works. They can probably keep the momentum going. I just hope they have the balls to write in that Jon Snow—having been reanimated by the Red Woman's dark magic—mindlessly kills Gilly and the baby and then comes to his senses to mourn their loss just as Sam vows vengeance and attacks only to fall on Jon's sword so that Jon is super emo'd. I mean, it could happen. That would be so heartbreaking, so it has to happen.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #473 on: April 26, 2016, 10:10:48 am »
0

So book fans and series fans are all on the same page now, right? The series is now into unwritten territory? I read someone complain that it's going to lose the richness of Martin's work. I don't know about that. These writers have immersed themselves into his works. They can probably keep the momentum going. I just hope they have the balls to write in that Jon Snow—having been reanimated by the Red Woman's dark magic—mindlessly kills Gilly and the baby and then comes to his senses to mourn their loss just as Sam vows vengeance and attacks only to fall on Jon's sword so that Jon is super emo'd. I mean, it could happen. That would be so heartbreaking, so it has to happen.

Mostly.  There are story lines that have been moved around, which happened earlier in the book and we will still see in the show.  (Specifically, Sam has already reached Oldtown, and some stuff that will be happening involving the Iron Islands happened far earlier in the books.  Various other stuff seems to have been dropped, and some things look like they may be refactored.)

At any rate, I'm excited that what I'm watching is basically new territory. 
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #474 on: April 27, 2016, 01:01:28 am »
0

Irony: "Fuck everyone who isn't us." -- Jaime Lannister to Cersei.

Dorne (with book spoilers): Very surprised by this development.  Not sure whether this is the show's own thread now, or whether this is to come in the books as well.  I am disappointed for now, because I thought Doran's scheming was really interesting in the books and all of that might have just been excised from the show at this point.  That's a pretty big deal, considering the major plot points that were happening by his hand.  I guess things he had secretly put into motion could crop up now, spiralling out of control without his hand to guide them.

Dorne (with less important book spoilers): I am also highly disappointed that Areo Hotah was so easy to take down.  I guess it was done in the interest of time, but I remember his book counterpart being far more attentive to possible trouble *and* a real threat besides.  I don't think he would have left his back exposed to a Sand Snake.

Mostly.  There are story lines that have been moved around, which happened earlier in the book and we will still see in the show.  (Specifically, Sam has already reached Oldtown, and some stuff that will be happening involving the Iron Islands happened far earlier in the books.  Various other stuff seems to have been dropped, and some things look like they may be refactored.)

At any rate, I'm excited that what I'm watching is basically new territory.

Another big one is Arya's storyline.  Not much of a spoiler, but the blindness plot happened a little earlier in the book (before her first assassination assignment).  Some other details of Arya's plot are shuffled and modified as well, though the major points are still there.
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #475 on: April 27, 2016, 10:26:27 am »
0

I read about the shocking ending of this week's Game of Thrones episode.

If you haven't seen it and such things may be surprising to you, I'll use the spoiler tag. The Red Woman reveals herself to be an old crone.

I'm kind of surprised that this is being touted a shocker. This strikes me as a fairly common fantasy trope. I mean, I didn't expect it. They showed it, and I simply said, "huh," but it wasn't shocking to me.

Am I missing what makes this so shocking?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #476 on: April 27, 2016, 10:53:41 am »
0

I read about the shocking ending of this week's Game of Thrones episode.

If you haven't seen it and such things may be surprising to you, I'll use the spoiler tag. The Red Woman reveals herself to be an old crone.

I'm kind of surprised that this is being touted a shocker. This strikes me as a fairly common fantasy trope. I mean, I didn't expect it. They showed it, and I simply said, "huh," but it wasn't shocking to me.

Am I missing what makes this so shocking?
I wasn't paying QUITE enough attention to that last bit and missed her taking off the necklace.  I thought that maybe we were to assume that she had just cast a magic spell to do something awesome, but used up a bunch of life force in the process, in another common fantasy trope.
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #477 on: April 27, 2016, 11:23:58 am »
0

I read about the shocking ending of this week's Game of Thrones episode.

If you haven't seen it and such things may be surprising to you, I'll use the spoiler tag. The Red Woman reveals herself to be an old crone.

I'm kind of surprised that this is being touted a shocker. This strikes me as a fairly common fantasy trope. I mean, I didn't expect it. They showed it, and I simply said, "huh," but it wasn't shocking to me.

Am I missing what makes this so shocking?
I wasn't paying QUITE enough attention to that last bit and missed her taking off the necklace.  I thought that maybe we were to assume that she had just cast a magic spell to do something awesome, but used up a bunch of life force in the process, in another common fantasy trope.

Someone somewhere claimed that it's been removed before without that happening. I'm not going through those past episodes to verify it. Since we're now getting into television-writer territory, this may be a matter of "Sure it's always been like this; quit looking at past episodes please."

Then there was speculation that she gives it to him, which fixes everything (horribly hopefully).
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #478 on: April 27, 2016, 12:05:47 pm »
0

I read about the shocking ending of this week's Game of Thrones episode.

If you haven't seen it and such things may be surprising to you, I'll use the spoiler tag. The Red Woman reveals herself to be an old crone.

I'm kind of surprised that this is being touted a shocker. This strikes me as a fairly common fantasy trope. I mean, I didn't expect it. They showed it, and I simply said, "huh," but it wasn't shocking to me.

Am I missing what makes this so shocking?
I wasn't paying QUITE enough attention to that last bit and missed her taking off the necklace.  I thought that maybe we were to assume that she had just cast a magic spell to do something awesome, but used up a bunch of life force in the process, in another common fantasy trope.

Someone somewhere claimed that it's been removed before without that happening. I'm not going through those past episodes to verify it. Since we're now getting into television-writer territory, this may be a matter of "Sure it's always been like this; quit looking at past episodes please."

Then there was speculation that she gives it to him, which fixes everything (horribly hopefully).

Could be an error, but you don't really lose anything if the necklace just helps her maintain the glamour instead of entirely maintains it.  I imagine they include it in that way  because an analogous thing that happened in the book involving it cannot now occur because of changes that were made.
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #479 on: April 27, 2016, 02:41:38 pm »
0

I read about the shocking ending of this week's Game of Thrones episode.

If you haven't seen it and such things may be surprising to you, I'll use the spoiler tag. The Red Woman reveals herself to be an old crone.

I'm kind of surprised that this is being touted a shocker. This strikes me as a fairly common fantasy trope. I mean, I didn't expect it. They showed it, and I simply said, "huh," but it wasn't shocking to me.

Am I missing what makes this so shocking?

I don't think it was shocking as in a big huge reveal of a deep long kept secret... Book readers, at least, should have known about it as I believe it was mentioned previously that she was exceptionally old despite her appearance. At least that wasn't the reason it was shocking.

Instead it was shocking in how it was presented especially when contrasted to how the show typically shocks "sex, nudity and violence." This had one of those but manipulated the expectations of the viewer with something of a bait and switch that resulted in what I thought was pretty good TV.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #480 on: April 27, 2016, 02:59:16 pm »
0

By the way, did anyone else expect she would somehow bring Jon Snow back to live by having sex with his corpse when that scene started?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #481 on: April 27, 2016, 03:12:55 pm »
0

By the way, did anyone else expect she would somehow bring Jon Snow back to live by having sex with his corpse when that scene started?

I thought of that briefly, though the logistics got in the way. I don't know if rigor mortis is a good enough explanation. And, well, it's not too late for that to happen.

I guess I'm just really jaded and numb since that scene did not shock me. And if she does do that, well, it's along the lines of the scene in Wild Cards where Fortunato reanimates a dead body by sodomizing it. The question is if HBO has the guts to go there. Considering they showed a scene with a little girl being burned alive, I don't see why they wouldn't.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #482 on: April 27, 2016, 03:48:26 pm »
0

I read about the shocking ending of this week's Game of Thrones episode.

If you haven't seen it and such things may be surprising to you, I'll use the spoiler tag. The Red Woman reveals herself to be an old crone.

I'm kind of surprised that this is being touted a shocker. This strikes me as a fairly common fantasy trope. I mean, I didn't expect it. They showed it, and I simply said, "huh," but it wasn't shocking to me.

Am I missing what makes this so shocking?

When I watched this scene, I first expected her to summon her god in some form or another, even when I saw her changing reflection. Then, when I got what it really was I went like 'Oh... oh. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense'.

But then after I was done watching I became increasingly creeped out, so while it wasn't a shock, it was definitely disturbing.

I also feel like I should have seen it coming, but I totally didn't.

Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #483 on: April 27, 2016, 03:51:09 pm »
0

You should watch It Follows. It'll totally numb you to unsexy naked bodies. Pretty decent movie too.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #484 on: May 02, 2016, 08:00:01 pm »
0

I'm getting more and more excited for this season.  Especially with the things Bran will uncover.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #485 on: May 03, 2016, 01:00:23 am »
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I'm disappointed that they didn't leave the cause of Balon's death ambiguous.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #486 on: May 03, 2016, 07:52:32 am »
0

I'm disappointed that they didn't leave the cause of Balon's death ambiguous.

They've done that with most subtle things in the books.
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #487 on: May 03, 2016, 08:05:48 am »
0

I'm disappointed that they didn't leave the cause of Balon's death ambiguous.

It might be because of the difference between a TV series and a book. It's assumed you've read the books recently. Or at the very least, the author has freedom to insert subtle reminders through backstories and expositions.

In the case of the TV series, I don't remember one iota about his brother. Was he even in the series before this episode, or did they introduce him for this plot? If they had left it ambiguous, the great reveal would probably be lost on me, as I sit there going Who?

Caveat: I've not read the books, so I don't know how they handled this plot.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #488 on: May 03, 2016, 09:22:24 am »
0

I'm disappointed that they didn't leave the cause of Balon's death ambiguous.

It might be because of the difference between a TV series and a book. It's assumed you've read the books recently. Or at the very least, the author has freedom to insert subtle reminders through backstories and expositions.

In the case of the TV series, I don't remember one iota about his brother. Was he even in the series before this episode, or did they introduce him for this plot? If they had left it ambiguous, the great reveal would probably be lost on me, as I sit there going Who?

Caveat: I've not read the books, so I don't know how they handled this plot.

The thing is, books are written from a set of PoVs.  So, if something doesn't happen in a character's view, we only know about it from dialogue/internal thoughts of that character.  The same thing that happened in the show happened in the books, we just didn't witness it in the books.  The only character whose PoV that we have there are Asha (Yara in the show; the daughter of Balon) and Victarion (Balon's other brother; probably dropped from the show).  They both highly suspect Euron, but they did not witness anything. 

Also, quite a bit in the books happens 'off-screen', and we learn about it through characters thinking back on what happened, and sometimes it's only hinted.  (For instance, Theon's mutilation is only hinted at in the books, but made explicit in the show.)
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #489 on: May 03, 2016, 09:40:08 am »
0

As one who's not read the books, is it safe to assume that each subplot gets a lot more dedication than the TV shows?

I know the nature of such stories is to jump from one plot to another, but it seems to be more a bit more frenetic in the show. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect the book does not have "Arya gets beaten up," followed by other plots only to jump to, "Arya gets beaten up again." I imagine that there's a bit more cohesion with the Arya storyline that explains how she's beaten up every day (I presume).

And so I guess that Balon's plot gets a lot more dedicated attention that sells the ambiguity better than the show.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #490 on: May 03, 2016, 09:54:42 am »
+1

As one who's not read the books, is it safe to assume that each subplot gets a lot more dedication than the TV shows?

I know the nature of such stories is to jump from one plot to another, but it seems to be more a bit more frenetic in the show. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect the book does not have "Arya gets beaten up," followed by other plots only to jump to, "Arya gets beaten up again." I imagine that there's a bit more cohesion with the Arya storyline that explains how she's beaten up every day (I presume).

And so I guess that Balon's plot gets a lot more dedicated attention that sells the ambiguity better than the show.

Each chapter is a PoV, so generally more happens in a given chapter than in an analogous scene in the show.  So all of Arya's 'training' in that particular respect could happen over the same period of time, but all within a chapter.  (This is not the same as it happened in the books, but it's similar.)  Some things get pretty spread out in the books, though.  Especially regarding Dany.

And basically, yeah.  They could found a way to do the ambiguity, probably, but I'm not sure it would be the right call.  A lot of the 'development' of Euron's character is done through people remembering stories or recalling their experiences with him in the past.  They could do something similar through dialogue, but on a show there is limited time and it's more effective to just witness the person directly.  Just a few minutes of Euron on screen gives us a very good idea of what his character is like.  The books develop that over chapters.
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #491 on: May 03, 2016, 10:27:54 am »
0

I'm disappointed that they didn't leave the cause of Balon's death ambiguous.

It might be because of the difference between a TV series and a book. It's assumed you've read the books recently. Or at the very least, the author has freedom to insert subtle reminders through backstories and expositions.

In the case of the TV series, I don't remember one iota about his brother. Was he even in the series before this episode, or did they introduce him for this plot? If they had left it ambiguous, the great reveal would probably be lost on me, as I sit there going Who?

Caveat: I've not read the books, so I don't know how they handled this plot.

The thing is, books are written from a set of PoVs.  So, if something doesn't happen in a character's view, we only know about it from dialogue/internal thoughts of that character.  The same thing that happened in the show happened in the books, we just didn't witness it in the books.  The only character whose PoV that we have there are Asha (Yara in the show; the daughter of Balon) and Victarion (Balon's other brother; probably dropped from the show).  They both highly suspect Euron, but they did not witness anything. 

Also there was the observation, from the reader at least, that Balon's death was caused by Melisandre's curse of the three kings (Robb, Joffrey and Balon). This happens both in the book 3 and the show in season 3 (pre-cursor to Red and Purple Weddings) but Balon's death was long forestalled for some reason in the show compared to it occurring much more timely in the books.

For the reader the death is much more mysterious and caused by "higher" powers. Whether it was actually caused by Euron is completely left up to interpretation. He is suspected because he appears in Pyke the day after his death, coincidence?
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #492 on: May 03, 2016, 10:33:42 am »
0

Well, I think the reason was that killing Balon had to coincide with the arrival of Euron, and they didn't want to do that story line yet, or spread it out so far.  Maybe they thought the threads were already spreading out pretty thinly.  Kind of doesn't work as well, though, as it lessens the impact of Melisandre's actions and their influence on Stanis. 
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #493 on: May 03, 2016, 11:04:15 am »
+1

Well, I think the reason was that killing Balon had to coincide with the arrival of Euron, and they didn't want to do that story line yet, or spread it out so far.  Maybe they thought the threads were already spreading out pretty thinly.  Kind of doesn't work as well, though, as it lessens the impact of Melisandre's actions and their influence on Stanis.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with them separating the storylines out and saving the Greyjoy stuff for this season--I think it will probably end up fitting in pretty well thematically with Sam's stuff in Oldtown. But I do think that they could have easily dropped in some sort of a reminder of Melisandre's curse.

But what it really shows, unfortunately, is that sometimes this show lacks forward thinking and planning (a disconnect between season 3 and season 6 is pretty significant) even when they have the content sitting right in front of them that results in some pretty major disconnects.
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #494 on: May 03, 2016, 11:15:12 am »
0

Honestly, I didn't even think the curse involved Balon. I thought it was focused on Lannister, Stark, and Renly. I suppose I didn't pick up enough about Balon to treat him as important. I also thought it was more than three, but my memory may be really hazy on that.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #495 on: May 03, 2016, 11:17:05 am »
0

Honestly, I didn't even think the curse involved Balon. I thought it was focused on Lannister, Stark, and Renly. I suppose I didn't pick up enough about Balon to treat him as important. I also thought it was more than three, but my memory may be really hazy on that.

Renly was already dead by that time.  It was Robb Stark, Balon Greyjoy, and Joffrey Baratheon.
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #496 on: May 03, 2016, 11:26:22 am »
0

Honestly, I didn't even think the curse involved Balon. I thought it was focused on Lannister, Stark, and Renly. I suppose I didn't pick up enough about Balon to treat him as important. I also thought it was more than three, but my memory may be really hazy on that.

Renly was already dead by that time.  It was Robb Stark, Balon Greyjoy, and Joffrey Baratheon.

Was he? That explains my disconnect then. I felt like there was someone I wasn't sure of—hence my thinking there were more than three. I must have retroactively "remembered" Renly being one of the three.

Huh, yeah, in the series, the curse is taking its sweet time to get Balon. If Jon Snow's resurrection doesn't restore her faith, then this would.
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #497 on: May 03, 2016, 11:36:21 am »
+2



This was actually something that really irked me with Stannis last season. You would think that he would have questioned Melisandre more intently before... you know... being the worst parent in the world... given that she was only 2 for 3 in her promises up to that point.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #498 on: May 03, 2016, 12:00:32 pm »
0

I thought that, at that point, stannis was so commited to his cause that factchecking melisandre was probably something he'd rather avoid.

eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #499 on: May 03, 2016, 12:28:51 pm »
0

I'm disappointed that they didn't leave the cause of Balon's death ambiguous.

It might be because of the difference between a TV series and a book. It's assumed you've read the books recently. Or at the very least, the author has freedom to insert subtle reminders through backstories and expositions.

In the case of the TV series, I don't remember one iota about his brother. Was he even in the series before this episode, or did they introduce him for this plot? If they had left it ambiguous, the great reveal would probably be lost on me, as I sit there going Who?

Caveat: I've not read the books, so I don't know how they handled this plot.

The thing is, books are written from a set of PoVs.  So, if something doesn't happen in a character's view, we only know about it from dialogue/internal thoughts of that character.  The same thing that happened in the show happened in the books, we just didn't witness it in the books.  The only character whose PoV that we have there are Asha (Yara in the show; the daughter of Balon) and Victarion (Balon's other brother; probably dropped from the show).  They both highly suspect Euron, but they did not witness anything. 

Also, quite a bit in the books happens 'off-screen', and we learn about it through characters thinking back on what happened, and sometimes it's only hinted.  (For instance, Theon's mutilation is only hinted at in the books, but made explicit in the show.)

In the books, Euron doesn't arrive until just after Balon's death.  The prevailing theory IIRC is that he hired the Faceless Men to kill Balon, which adds a nice connection to other ongoing plots and says something a little different about his character. 

Also, the TV version is missing a lot of nuance from Balon's two other brothers, who are interesting in their own ways.  But there's still time to bring that in if they want.  Or they can leave it out if they'd rather keep things simple.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 12:32:24 pm by eHalcyon »
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #500 on: May 03, 2016, 01:12:15 pm »
0

Also, the TV version is missing a lot of nuance from Balon's two other brothers, who are interesting in their own ways.  But there's still time to bring that in if they want.  Or they can leave it out if they'd rather keep things simple.

I missed that Damphair was actually shown in the last episode. But my wife pointed it out and then convinced me by pulling up IMDB. So at least he is going to be around. They also seem to be skirting around the idea that a kingsmoot is unusual and making it look like it is much more commonplace that it actually is (hasn't happened in the last two thousand years).
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #501 on: May 03, 2016, 01:35:53 pm »
0

I thought that, at that point, stannis was so commited to his cause that factchecking melisandre was probably something he'd rather avoid.

Yeah, or he wanted to believe her infallibility. After all, he was willing to murder his daughter based on her advice, so he's clearly not thinking straight.

In any case, I think it's safe to assume that Stannis lost his ability to think logically long ago.
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #502 on: May 03, 2016, 01:50:53 pm »
0

Well, I am getting things spoiled whether I check this thread or not, so I might as well contribute: I hope the TV series is departing from the books, because Stannis was one of my favourite characters in the books, and seeing him fall like this is upsetting. Same with Doran, who seemed to be building up to something, and then, poof. Huge disappointment. I hope whatever he set in motion still happens anyway.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #503 on: May 03, 2016, 01:55:09 pm »
0

I'm disappointed that they didn't leave the cause of Balon's death ambiguous.

It might be because of the difference between a TV series and a book. It's assumed you've read the books recently. Or at the very least, the author has freedom to insert subtle reminders through backstories and expositions.

In the case of the TV series, I don't remember one iota about his brother. Was he even in the series before this episode, or did they introduce him for this plot? If they had left it ambiguous, the great reveal would probably be lost on me, as I sit there going Who?

Caveat: I've not read the books, so I don't know how they handled this plot.

The thing is, books are written from a set of PoVs.  So, if something doesn't happen in a character's view, we only know about it from dialogue/internal thoughts of that character.  The same thing that happened in the show happened in the books, we just didn't witness it in the books.  The only character whose PoV that we have there are Asha (Yara in the show; the daughter of Balon) and Victarion (Balon's other brother; probably dropped from the show).  They both highly suspect Euron, but they did not witness anything. 

Also, quite a bit in the books happens 'off-screen', and we learn about it through characters thinking back on what happened, and sometimes it's only hinted.  (For instance, Theon's mutilation is only hinted at in the books, but made explicit in the show.)

In the books, Euron doesn't arrive until just after Balon's death.  The prevailing theory IIRC is that he hired the Faceless Men to kill Balon, which adds a nice connection to other ongoing plots and says something a little different about his character. 

Also, the TV version is missing a lot of nuance from Balon's two other brothers, who are interesting in their own ways.  But there's still time to bring that in if they want.  Or they can leave it out if they'd rather keep things simple.

Based on casting, it looks like Victarion is eliminated.  Aeron is still in.  In fact, he's probably the priest Yara talked to, since the actor is credited in this episode.  Euron may take on some of Victarion's plot points, so like merging the characters. 

From the books, I'm not sure it's clear that Euron wasn't there when Balon was killed; he 'arrives' the next day, but he could have gotten there early and stayed hidden, went back to his boat or something to 'arrive' after.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #504 on: May 03, 2016, 04:29:53 pm »
0

Also there was the observation, from the reader at least, that Balon's death was caused by Melisandre's curse of the three kings (Robb, Joffrey and Balon). This happens both in the book 3 and the show in season 3 (pre-cursor to Red and Purple Weddings) but Balon's death was long forestalled for some reason in the show compared to it occurring much more timely in the books.

A common theory in the fandom is that Melisandre's leech curse was a scam. She knew the three kings were going to die (her flames let her see the future), and carries out the leech ritual to make it look like she was causing their deaths, in order to make Stannis trust her powers more and hand over Edric to her.

Quote
For the reader the death is much more mysterious and caused by "higher" powers. Whether it was actually caused by Euron is completely left up to interpretation. He is suspected because he appears in Pyke the day after his death, coincidence?

Not completely left up to interpretation! The witch that Arya meets speaks of a vision of a Faceless Man and a "drowned crow" lying in wait for Balon; Euron Crow's-Eye is the best candidate for who the "drowned crow" represents.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 04:23:39 pm by AJD »
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #505 on: May 03, 2016, 05:18:27 pm »
0

Based on casting, it looks like Victarion is eliminated.  Aeron is still in.  In fact, he's probably the priest Yara talked to, since the actor is credited in this episode.  Euron may take on some of Victarion's plot points, so like merging the characters. 

From the books, I'm not sure it's clear that Euron wasn't there when Balon was killed; he 'arrives' the next day, but he could have gotten there early and stayed hidden, went back to his boat or something to 'arrive' after.

Hmm, I wondered about the priest, but thought he was just a generic priest rather than the Damphair from the books.  Here's hoping he gets his background filled in then.

They've made the kingsmoot the tradition rather than a rarity, and Victarion being missing will have an impact on the plot since Aeron supported him in the books.  I suppose they'll simplify by having him support Yara or possibly Theon instead.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #506 on: May 03, 2016, 05:22:24 pm »
0

Based on casting, it looks like Victarion is eliminated.  Aeron is still in.  In fact, he's probably the priest Yara talked to, since the actor is credited in this episode.  Euron may take on some of Victarion's plot points, so like merging the characters. 

From the books, I'm not sure it's clear that Euron wasn't there when Balon was killed; he 'arrives' the next day, but he could have gotten there early and stayed hidden, went back to his boat or something to 'arrive' after.

Hmm, I wondered about the priest, but thought he was just a generic priest rather than the Damphair from the books.  Here's hoping he gets his background filled in then.

They've made the kingsmoot the tradition rather than a rarity, and Victarion being missing will have an impact on the plot since Aeron supported him in the books.  I suppose they'll simplify by having him support Yara or possibly Theon instead.

Yeah, I had thought so as well since they didn't really treat the character as someone noteworthy at all, but there is an actor credited for Aeron on imdb, and he does look like that guy Yara talked to.  I'm guessing that they're going to simplify this entire story line.
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #507 on: May 03, 2016, 05:35:31 pm »
0

Quote
For the reader the death is much more mysterious and caused by "higher" powers. Whether it was actually caused by Euron is completely left up to interpretation. He is suspected because he appears in Pyke the day after his death, coincidence?

Not completely left up to interpretation! The witch that Arya meets speaks of a vision of a Faceless Man and a "drowned crow" lying in wait for Balon; Euron Crow's-Eye is the best candidate for who the "drowned crow" represents.

I had forgotten about that. But again, there is some sort of "higher power" or something that allows the witch to know about it that is perhaps slightly causing pieces (faceless men and drowned crow) to be moved.

The show took the mysticism and mystery out of it and just made it look simply like a regular old power play.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #508 on: May 03, 2016, 05:41:45 pm »
0

Quote
For the reader the death is much more mysterious and caused by "higher" powers. Whether it was actually caused by Euron is completely left up to interpretation. He is suspected because he appears in Pyke the day after his death, coincidence?

Not completely left up to interpretation! The witch that Arya meets speaks of a vision of a Faceless Man and a "drowned crow" lying in wait for Balon; Euron Crow's-Eye is the best candidate for who the "drowned crow" represents.

I had forgotten about that. But again, there is some sort of "higher power" or something that allows the witch to know about it that is perhaps slightly causing pieces (faceless men and drowned crow) to be moved.

The show took the mysticism and mystery out of it and just made it look simply like a regular old power play.

I don't know, I feel like it kind of is a regular old power play.  And another metalevel of power play by the mystics.  I mean, I like the mysticism, but part of the theme of the books is subversion of fantasy tropes.  So while there really is this epic battle between 'good' and 'evil' (or is it really? maybe that stands to get subverted as well), most of what's going on is just attributed to people being regular old bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings.
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #509 on: May 03, 2016, 06:34:13 pm »
0

Quote
For the reader the death is much more mysterious and caused by "higher" powers. Whether it was actually caused by Euron is completely left up to interpretation. He is suspected because he appears in Pyke the day after his death, coincidence?

Not completely left up to interpretation! The witch that Arya meets speaks of a vision of a Faceless Man and a "drowned crow" lying in wait for Balon; Euron Crow's-Eye is the best candidate for who the "drowned crow" represents.

I had forgotten about that. But again, there is some sort of "higher power" or something that allows the witch to know about it that is perhaps slightly causing pieces (faceless men and drowned crow) to be moved.

The show took the mysticism and mystery out of it and just made it look simply like a regular old power play.

I don't know, I feel like it kind of is a regular old power play.  And another metalevel of power play by the mystics.  I mean, I like the mysticism, but part of the theme of the books is subversion of fantasy tropes.  So while there really is this epic battle between 'good' and 'evil' (or is it really? maybe that stands to get subverted as well), most of what's going on is just attributed to people being regular old bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings.

I guess I misspoke. What I mean is that in the books there is often a question as to whether it is mystical or a simply politics. It is ambiguous, at least for a time that leaves you wondering a guessing even if in the end it is just a power play. Here there was no ambiguity. And that makes it less fun.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #510 on: May 03, 2016, 07:09:49 pm »
0

Quote
For the reader the death is much more mysterious and caused by "higher" powers. Whether it was actually caused by Euron is completely left up to interpretation. He is suspected because he appears in Pyke the day after his death, coincidence?

Not completely left up to interpretation! The witch that Arya meets speaks of a vision of a Faceless Man and a "drowned crow" lying in wait for Balon; Euron Crow's-Eye is the best candidate for who the "drowned crow" represents.

I had forgotten about that. But again, there is some sort of "higher power" or something that allows the witch to know about it that is perhaps slightly causing pieces (faceless men and drowned crow) to be moved.

The show took the mysticism and mystery out of it and just made it look simply like a regular old power play.

I don't know, I feel like it kind of is a regular old power play.  And another metalevel of power play by the mystics.  I mean, I like the mysticism, but part of the theme of the books is subversion of fantasy tropes.  So while there really is this epic battle between 'good' and 'evil' (or is it really? maybe that stands to get subverted as well), most of what's going on is just attributed to people being regular old bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings.

I guess I misspoke. What I mean is that in the books there is often a question as to whether it is mystical or a simply politics. It is ambiguous, at least for a time that leaves you wondering a guessing even if in the end it is just a power play. Here there was no ambiguity. And that makes it less fun.

Ah, yeah, I see what you mean. 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #511 on: May 06, 2016, 12:26:07 pm »
+1

An interesting theory that I haven't seen before, that Meera is Lyanna's daughter:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1e361x/spoilers_all_meera_reed_more_than_meets_the_eyes/

A lot of other arguments seem mainly prompted by show choices/potential leaks:

http://www.techinsider.io/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-twin-theory-2015-8
http://winteriscoming.net/2015/08/27/game-of-thrones-theorycrafting-the-twins-that-were-promised/

The casting in the show makes her look quite a bit more Stark than Reed (she looks more like Bran/Jon than she does Jojen). 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #512 on: May 07, 2016, 08:49:09 am »
0

I'm expecting Bran to get some Meera paste soon since he can't get Jojen paste in the absence of Jojen.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #513 on: May 07, 2016, 12:06:13 pm »
0

I'm expecting Bran to get some Meera paste soon since he can't get Jojen paste in the absence of Jojen.

I dunno, they may have just had the Skeleton thing replace that whole bit.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #514 on: May 07, 2016, 12:52:04 pm »
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Maybe I'm reading to much into it, but "Brandon Stark needs you" would be pretty cool foreshadowing for him eating her.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #515 on: May 09, 2016, 11:16:38 pm »
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Thought this most recent episode was pretty good. Some sites I visit are really piling the hate on Jon for abandoning his post. I don't get that at all. I especially liked the humor in the episode. The show hadn't had that many laughs for a long, long time.

My only real complaint was when the Smalljon handed over Rickon Stark to Ramsay. No way does that ever happen!! The Umbers are probably the most pro-Stark House in all of the North and I feel like that is something that has been addressed previously in the show and not just in the books. It felt like a complete betrayal of previous intentions when there were many more plausible and logical ways to get the Stark heir into the Bolton's hands if they really felt it was necessary. {Karstarks capture them. A Frey search party turns him up. Even House Manderly turning him over makes more sense than the Umbers!)

However, I do get the subplot movement though as it will likely create a showdown between the Bolton's and Jon Snow down the road.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #516 on: May 10, 2016, 12:09:46 am »
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My only real complaint was when the Smalljon handed over Rickon Stark to Ramsay. No way does that ever happen!!

Hmm, possibly could be a plot for later. There's no indication of this yet, but it could be a long con, I suppose.

I don't get the hate either. He's been through a lot. Who wouldn't do the same after all that?
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #517 on: May 10, 2016, 12:10:45 am »
0

Thought this most recent episode was pretty good. Some sites I visit are really piling the hate on Jon for abandoning his post. I don't get that at all. I especially liked the humor in the episode. The show hadn't had that many laughs for a long, long time.

My only real complaint was when the Smalljon handed over Rickon Stark to Ramsay. No way does that ever happen!! The Umbers are probably the most pro-Stark House in all of the North and I feel like that is something that has been addressed previously in the show and not just in the books. It felt like a complete betrayal of previous intentions when there were many more plausible and logical ways to get the Stark heir into the Bolton's hands if they really felt it was necessary. {Karstarks capture them. A Frey search party turns him up. Even House Manderly turning him over makes more sense than the Umbers!)

However, I do get the subplot movement though as it will likely create a showdown between the Bolton's and Jon Snow down the road.

I've read a theory that it's a ploy by the Umbers to infiltrate Winterfell (and that wasn't actually Shaggydog).  I like the idea; not sure if it will turn out true or not.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #518 on: May 10, 2016, 12:12:59 am »
0

As for Jon, I read the point of that scene to be, as everyone has often brought up in theorizing, that his vow is over.  It ends upon death, and he died.  So he's not abandoning anything.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #519 on: May 10, 2016, 04:21:02 am »
0

Gilly seemed really chipper.  I don't remember if the show followed the books on this... Was there a baby switch on the show?  If so, was Gilly informed?

I like the way that they are using Bran's visions to provide history and exposition that would not work as well on TV with just somebody telling a story.  On the one with Arthur Dayne, the choreography felt a little off to me.  I think it's that Dayne didn't seem agile enough to be wielding those two swords effectively.  Not sure.  Also, I think it's a minor difference from the books that the stories Bran had been told were inaccurate?  That is, I vaguely recall from the books that the story always mentioned how Howland Reed was crucial to Ned's victory against Dayne.  In the show, they made it seem like Ned took all the glory in the stories, which is a mark against his character.  I don't remember if the book ever specifying how Reed helped in the battle.  I wonder how many show-only viewers will get the significance of this scene.  A few more pieces to the story are still needed, I think.  Or have those pieces already been revealed in the show?  I can't remember.  (OTOH, I may be overestimating how many of those pieces are actually fully revealed in the books as opposed to being blanks filled in by the R + L = J theory.)

Aww, this episode has simplified yet another thing that was left to subtext in the books -- that Qyburn's franken-knight is Ser Gregor.  Boo.

Big book change?  During Arya's blind training sequence, they never showed her getting around the blindness by warging.  Granted, it's not yet clear how important this is in the books and they could still work that in later.

Shaggydog! :'(

I actually thought the ending with Jon leaving was fantastic.  It's such an obvious development, but it still surprised me, and it opens the door for so many possible stories.

Re: the Umber betrayal, I can see it being a ploy but I can also see it being true to the story.  I mean, I remember the Karstarks being portrayed as totally loyal early in Robb's campaign.  And while we certainly see the Greatjon as fiercely loyal, that doesn't necessarily apply to the rest of the clan.  We don't get a direct line on the inner thoughts and motivations of those characters, and what we do see in the books comes mostly from the perspective of Robb, not necessarily the most perceptive of the hidden motivations of those around him.  Also note that, name aside, there isn't a direct book analogue for the character of the Smalljon.  We may know him as loyal from the books, but that character died at the Red Wedding.  We can only guess at which book character will correspond to the Smalljon of the show... maybe another son of the Greatjon who we don't know much about yet?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 04:22:20 am by eHalcyon »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #520 on: May 10, 2016, 09:48:45 am »
0

Gilly seemed really chipper.  I don't remember if the show followed the books on this... Was there a baby switch on the show?  If so, was Gilly informed?


YesNo, not in the show.  In the books, Gilly's baby was kept at Castle Black, and Mance and Dally's baby was brought with Sam, Gilly, and Maester Aemon, and the other dude from the Night Watch that gets totally Arya'd in Braavos.  Jon switched Gilly's baby with Mance and Dally's, because Mance is a 'king' and therefore Melisandre would want to sacrifice his child.  So this is why Gilly is upset.  I think Sam was not told.

The show deviates a little besides that.  Aemon dies on the journey, not before.  Jon sends Sam to Oldtown; it isn't Sam's idea.  And there was a stopover in Braavos.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 02:38:12 pm by Witherweaver »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #521 on: May 10, 2016, 10:39:28 am »
+2

Umm, I'm pretty sure Mance didn't even have a baby in the show?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #522 on: May 10, 2016, 12:43:10 pm »
+1

Umm, I'm pretty sure Mance didn't even have a baby in the show?

Yeah, they dropped that subplot entirely.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #523 on: May 10, 2016, 01:30:54 pm »
0

Gilly seemed really chipper.  I don't remember if the show followed the books on this... Was there a baby switch on the show?  If so, was Gilly informed?


Yes, Gilly's baby was kept at Castle Black, and Mance and Dally's baby was brought with Sam, Gilly, and Maester Aemon, and the other dude from the Night Watch that gets totally Arya'd in Braavos.  Jon switched Gilly's baby with Mance and Dally's, because Mance is a 'king' and therefore Melisandre would want to sacrifice his child.  So this is why Gilly is upset.  I think Sam was not told.

The show deviates a little besides that.  Aemon dies on the journey, not before.  Jon sends Sam to Oldtown; it isn't Sam's idea.  And there was a stopover in Braavos.


Your first spoiler is correct for the books.  My comment was that Gilly does not appear to be sad here.  So that's a fairly big deviation from the books... but I forgot that it was already a dropped sub plot.  Hmm.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #524 on: May 10, 2016, 01:46:45 pm »
0

Gilly seemed really chipper.  I don't remember if the show followed the books on this... Was there a baby switch on the show?  If so, was Gilly informed?


Yes, Gilly's baby was kept at Castle Black, and Mance and Dally's baby was brought with Sam, Gilly, and Maester Aemon, and the other dude from the Night Watch that gets totally Arya'd in Braavos.  Jon switched Gilly's baby with Mance and Dally's, because Mance is a 'king' and therefore Melisandre would want to sacrifice his child.  So this is why Gilly is upset.  I think Sam was not told.

The show deviates a little besides that.  Aemon dies on the journey, not before.  Jon sends Sam to Oldtown; it isn't Sam's idea.  And there was a stopover in Braavos.


Your first spoiler is correct for the books.  My comment was that Gilly does not appear to be sad here.  So that's a fairly big deviation from the books... but I forgot that it was already a dropped sub plot.  Hmm.

Right, yeah, that was what I was saying.  In the show, there isn't a reason for her to be depressed for the journey. 
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #525 on: May 10, 2016, 01:54:51 pm »
0

Gilly seemed really chipper.  I don't remember if the show followed the books on this... Was there a baby switch on the show?  If so, was Gilly informed?


Yes, Gilly's baby was kept at Castle Black, and Mance and Dally's baby was brought with Sam, Gilly, and Maester Aemon, and the other dude from the Night Watch that gets totally Arya'd in Braavos.  Jon switched Gilly's baby with Mance and Dally's, because Mance is a 'king' and therefore Melisandre would want to sacrifice his child.  So this is why Gilly is upset.  I think Sam was not told.

The show deviates a little besides that.  Aemon dies on the journey, not before.  Jon sends Sam to Oldtown; it isn't Sam's idea.  And there was a stopover in Braavos.


Your first spoiler is correct for the books.  My comment was that Gilly does not appear to be sad here.  So that's a fairly big deviation from the books... but I forgot that it was already a dropped sub plot.  Hmm.

Right, yeah, that was what I was saying.  In the show, there isn't a reason for her to be depressed for the journey.

OK, I was confused because you answered "yes" when my question was, "Did they do the same thing as the books?"
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #526 on: May 10, 2016, 02:31:04 pm »
0

Gilly seemed really chipper.  I don't remember if the show followed the books on this... Was there a baby switch on the show?  If so, was Gilly informed?


Yes, Gilly's baby was kept at Castle Black, and Mance and Dally's baby was brought with Sam, Gilly, and Maester Aemon, and the other dude from the Night Watch that gets totally Arya'd in Braavos.  Jon switched Gilly's baby with Mance and Dally's, because Mance is a 'king' and therefore Melisandre would want to sacrifice his child.  So this is why Gilly is upset.  I think Sam was not told.

The show deviates a little besides that.  Aemon dies on the journey, not before.  Jon sends Sam to Oldtown; it isn't Sam's idea.  And there was a stopover in Braavos.


Your first spoiler is correct for the books.  My comment was that Gilly does not appear to be sad here.  So that's a fairly big deviation from the books... but I forgot that it was already a dropped sub plot.  Hmm.

Right, yeah, that was what I was saying.  In the show, there isn't a reason for her to be depressed for the journey.

OK, I was confused because you answered "yes" when my question was, "Did they do the same thing as the books?"

Oh, I had misread what you wrote and thought you asked if it happened in the book, like you didn't remember the details and were double checking.

People's responses make sense now :)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #527 on: May 11, 2016, 05:02:47 pm »
0

Why are the episodes only ~52 minutes long? I think it used to be about 3 minutes longer on average. I want my whole 55 minutes  >:(

I thought the joke with the old bearded guy was lame. I get it, he's a loser. Too much. To forced. Too blatant. Too unreal. Felt out of place for this show.

I did like just about everything else. Tyrion trying to make conversation was a much much better take on a humorous scene. And it was really nice to get a bit more sight into how Varys does his thing.

Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #528 on: May 11, 2016, 05:38:10 pm »
0

Which old bearded guy are you talking about?
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #529 on: May 11, 2016, 05:39:54 pm »
+1

Which old bearded guy are you talking about?

I think he's talking about Pycelle scuttling past the Mountain.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #530 on: May 11, 2016, 06:12:17 pm »
0

Yes, that one. I'm as always horrible with names.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #531 on: May 18, 2016, 01:27:31 am »
0

So, Book of the Stranger.  Lots of table-setting, and most of it is stuff I could see happening in the book.  The thing that stands out to me as a probable deviation is how Dany takes over the Dothraki.  Specifically, the show doubles down on Dany being fireproof, which is something that is not supported by the books and in fact seems to be contradicted by both the books and interviews (see here).  I expect that the end result of the Dothraki following Dany will happen, but I think that the way the books get there will be different.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #532 on: May 22, 2016, 02:40:25 pm »
0

The one thing I can't get out of my head about the Season 6 premier: in the last scene, when Melisandre is trying her magic on Jon, and it seems to not work, Tormund gives a look like, 'Well what did you fuckers expect?' and then proceeds to turn around and leave.  Except he doesn't turn around like a normal person, he waddles around like a bow-legged cowboy, shifting his weight entirely from one leg to the other without actually rotating his hips.  Every time I see it, I half expect to hear boots and spurs hitting the ground and see him to cowboy walk out of there like a cartoon.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCjrTu0D1z4 at 4:10.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #533 on: May 22, 2016, 02:46:59 pm »
0

So, Book of the Stranger.  Lots of table-setting, and most of it is stuff I could see happening in the book.  The thing that stands out to me as a probable deviation is how Dany takes over the Dothraki.  Specifically, the show doubles down on Dany being fireproof, which is something that is not supported by the books and in fact seems to be contradicted by both the books and interviews (see here).  I expect that the end result of the Dothraki following Dany will happen, but I think that the way the books get there will be different.

I concur with this.  It definitely struck me while watching the scene, and kind of took me out of it a bit.  However,  if Martin never came out and said that, I wouldn't have taken any note at all.  I thought the scene was pretty cool,  basically a grand-scale version of how she secured her first followers. 

I never really understood the point of making it a one-shot thing.  I wonder if he had some specific future scenario in mind when he said that. 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #534 on: May 22, 2016, 11:18:34 pm »
0

Todays episode might be the first one containing real information about Asoiaf. (WARNING, SPOILERS ALL)

Hodor being revealed as Hold-the-door proofs multiple things (That one is all GRRM)

1. Past can be influenced in a strange way
2. They will actually leave the crave in the book as well      (since there is a door to be hold)
3. Because of 2, the Nights king parts seem to happen as well(but i expect it to be quite different)

Also interesting, though not confirmed yet (since it can be different in the book):
1. Others as mutated humans:
   This one makes them much more grey and enables much speculation about their goals. They might fight for getting back humanity or just for ending humanity.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #535 on: May 23, 2016, 06:31:24 pm »
0

I can't decide if the handling of Hodor is lame or brilliant.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #536 on: May 23, 2016, 06:37:16 pm »
+1

Todays episode might be the first one containing real information about Asoiaf. (WARNING, SPOILERS ALL)

Hodor being revealed as Hold-the-door proofs multiple things (That one is all GRRM)

1. Past can be influenced in a strange way
2. They will actually leave the crave in the book as well      (since there is a door to be hold)
3. Because of 2, the Nights king parts seem to happen as well(but i expect it to be quite different)

Also interesting, though not confirmed yet (since it can be different in the book):
1. Others as mutated humans:
   This one makes them much more grey and enables much speculation about their goals. They might fight for getting back humanity or just for ending humanity.

Finally the Game of Thrones/12 Monkeys crossover we've all been waiting for.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #537 on: May 23, 2016, 06:44:14 pm »
0

Todays episode might be the first one containing real information about Asoiaf. (WARNING, SPOILERS ALL)

Hodor being revealed as Hold-the-door proofs multiple things (That one is all GRRM)

1. Past can be influenced in a strange way
2. They will actually leave the crave in the book as well      (since there is a door to be hold)
3. Because of 2, the Nights king parts seem to happen as well(but i expect it to be quite different)

Also interesting, though not confirmed yet (since it can be different in the book):
1. Others as mutated humans:
   This one makes them much more grey and enables much speculation about their goals. They might fight for getting back humanity or just for ending humanity.

Finally the Game of Thrones/12 Monkeys crossover we've all been waiting for.
12 monkeys? :D
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #538 on: May 24, 2016, 02:22:19 am »
0

Sansa seems a little foolish in this episode.  Littlefinger can't much be trusted and she has great reason to not want any association with him, but I think she should have given more consideration to bringing his army on board.  At least discuss it with Jon?  But hey, the Manderlys were name-checked as the only Big Three clan that hasn't thrown in with the Boltons, so maybe we'll get to see that book plot.

I was not at all convinced by Euron in the Kingsmoot.  The books made it work by having Euron bribe the factions with spoils from his travels, plus he also seemed to have a certain special horn.  The show could easily have done that as well (at least the first part), but they didn't.  So instead we have Yara saying "I'll build a fleet for glory!" and then Euron saying, "Oh yeah?  Well I'll build a fleet too, and then give it to a foreign queen for her glory!"  That doesn't strike me as more persuasive given the audience and the context.

So the Children created the White Walkers?  That's a big enough reveal that it should be in line with the books, right?  I'm curious to learn how that all went wrong.

It seems significant that Meera killed a White Walker... was her spear made of obsidian or Valyrian steel?  The show didn't really dwell on that though.

Summer. :'(

I can't help but think that the Child's sacrifice was totally unnecessary.  Her standing there didn't seem to do anything that wouldn't have been accomplished by throwing the magical fire bomb instead.

Hodor. :'(  I'm not sure what to make of Bran continuing to watch the past while he's controlling Hodor.  Is he actually doing both at once, and is the fact that he's both in Hodor's head and watching Hodor's past the bridge that creates that time loop in the first place

Alternatively, maybe Hodor regains control of himself, maybe even with his wits returned in the end, because if it was Bran controlling him the whole time then he basically murdered Hodor, and I didn't think Bran had it in him to do that even if it meant saving Meera and himself when they would all die otherwise.

Also, what is the likelihood that Hodor returns as a wight?  I'd say it's decent.

2. They will actually leave the crave in the book as well      (since there is a door to be hold)

I think that that's likely, but not guaranteed.  It's still possible that [spoiler[Hodor will hold a different door in the books[/spoiler], and I can think of ways for that to happen without Bran physically leaving the cave.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 02:23:35 am by eHalcyon »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #539 on: May 24, 2016, 08:10:48 am »
0

Sansa seems a little foolish in this episode.  Littlefinger can't much be trusted and she has great reason to not want any association with him, but I think she should have given more consideration to bringing his army on board.  At least discuss it with Jon?  But hey, the Manderlys were name-checked as the only Big Three clan that hasn't thrown in with the Boltons, so maybe we'll get to see that book plot.
Howver, finally she is actually trusting him by using the information he has given to her. But in general i have no idea what to make of show littlefinger (his actions in season 5 were just unreasonable)

I was not at all convinced by Euron in the Kingsmoot.  The books made it work by having Euron bribe the factions with spoils from his travels, plus he also seemed to have a certain special horn.  The show could easily have done that as well (at least the first part), but they didn't.  So instead we have Yara saying "I'll build a fleet for glory!" and then Euron saying, "Oh yeah?  Well I'll build a fleet too, and then give it to a foreign queen for her glory!"  That doesn't strike me as more persuasive given the audience and the context.
Totally agree, how can the ironborn be so stupid.
He basicly sais "There is a dragon queen and we will convince here with our hypothetical ships that aren' built yet (not even the trees are cutted down). And by the way, i murdered your king". Building that fleet should take years and euron can't actually believe that Daenerys has no other allies and will still need his ships in years (Ilyrio, Yunkai, etc.  could provide her with ships as well)

It seems significant that Meera killed a White Walker... was her spear made of obsidian or Valyrian steel?  The show didn't really dwell on that though.
Was it her speer or just a random one (from the cave)?

Hodor. :'(  I'm not sure what to make of Bran continuing to watch the past while he's controlling Hodor.  Is he actually doing both at once, and is the fact that he's both in Hodor's head and watching Hodor's past the bridge that creates that time loop in the first place?
That was my understanding of the szene. However, we have to accept that past can't be changed since results of time travel are already shown in the past (Hodor). That leads to a "free-will" discussion since the universe is deterministic.

I think that that's likely, but not guaranteed.  It's still possible that Hodor will hold a different door in the books, and I can think of ways for that to happen without Bran physically leaving the cave.

What might that be? I think that if there is a huge threat that requires "door holding" an escape is necessary.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #540 on: May 24, 2016, 08:49:29 am »
0

Do we need spoilers for the episodes? I think no-one is gonna look into the thread who hasn't seen the most recent episode and wants to avoid spoilers (seems no point, right?). I'd just put book-related things in spoilers

I was not at all convinced by Euron in the Kingsmoot.  The books made it work by having Euron bribe the factions with spoils from his travels, plus he also seemed to have a certain special horn.  The show could easily have done that as well (at least the first part), but they didn't.  So instead we have Yara saying "I'll build a fleet for glory!" and then Euron saying, "Oh yeah?  Well I'll build a fleet too, and then give it to a foreign queen for her glory!"  That doesn't strike me as more persuasive given the audience and the context.
I think a part of that can be explained away with sexism. But yeah it's not great.

I can't help but think that the Child's sacrifice was totally unnecessary.  Her standing there didn't seem to do anything that wouldn't have been accomplished by throwing the magical fire bomb instead.
I thought that too. She creates a bit of a cluster by doing it this way, but it's far from a reasonable explanation.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #541 on: May 24, 2016, 09:17:09 am »
0

Do we need spoilers for the episodes? I think no-one is gonna look into the thread who hasn't seen the most recent episode and wants to avoid spoilers (seems no point, right?). I'd just put book-related things in spoilers

Since the thread is called "A song of ice and fire" even those are probably not necessary.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #542 on: May 24, 2016, 09:49:16 am »
+2

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #543 on: May 24, 2016, 09:49:38 am »
+1

Todays episode might be the first one containing real information about Asoiaf. (WARNING, SPOILERS ALL)

Hodor being revealed as Hold-the-door proofs multiple things (That one is all GRRM)

1. Past can be influenced in a strange way
2. They will actually leave the crave in the book as well      (since there is a door to be hold)
3. Because of 2, the Nights king parts seem to happen as well(but i expect it to be quite different)

Also interesting, though not confirmed yet (since it can be different in the book):
1. Others as mutated humans:
   This one makes them much more grey and enables much speculation about their goals. They might fight for getting back humanity or just for ending humanity.

Finally the Game of Thrones/12 Monkeys crossover we've all been waiting for.
12 monkeys? :D

You should go watch the movie.  And then realize that my joke was funny, and then laugh.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #544 on: May 24, 2016, 12:19:23 pm »
0

Do we need spoilers for the episodes? I think no-one is gonna look into the thread who hasn't seen the most recent episode and wants to avoid spoilers (seems no point, right?). I'd just put book-related things in spoilers

Since the thread is called "A song of ice and fire" even those are probably not necessary.

I mean, I don't really care how the thread is called. I haven't read the books. I don't want book spoilers. I wouldn't read the thread anymore if there were bookspoilers out in the open. But I doubt anyone will check the thread before he's watched the latest episode. Unless there's someone who only reads and doesn't watch the show at all.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #545 on: May 24, 2016, 12:26:33 pm »
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I haven't watched a single episode, but I still open the thread. I haven't read the books either.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #546 on: May 24, 2016, 12:40:56 pm »
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I haven't watched a single episode, but I still open the thread. I haven't read the books either.

Well do you want things to be put in spoilers?

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #547 on: May 24, 2016, 01:09:39 pm »
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I haven't watched a single episode, but I still open the thread. I haven't read the books either.

Well do you want things to be put in spoilers?

I don't care.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #548 on: May 24, 2016, 02:43:22 pm »
0

I just came here to complain about the pseudo-spoilers in the Random Stuff thread. Also, since apparently there is NO WAY to avoid spoilers on Facebook, I guess I might as well start watching the show (I wanted to wait for the books, but it's looking increasingly unlikely that I won't know the whole plot of the show by the time they are released...)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #549 on: May 24, 2016, 02:48:45 pm »
0

I just came here to complain about the pseudo-spoilers in the Random Stuff thread. Also, since apparently there is NO WAY to avoid spoilers on Facebook, I guess I might as well start watching the show (I wanted to wait for the books, but it's looking increasingly unlikely that I won't know the whole plot of the show by the time they are released...)
There is not much to be revealed. The show has totally departed.
 A few examples:
No Aegon, Arianna, Victarion, Connington! Dorne totally screwed up, Sansa given to Ramsay...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #550 on: May 24, 2016, 02:52:03 pm »
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I just came here to complain about the pseudo-spoilers in the Random Stuff thread. Also, since apparently there is NO WAY to avoid spoilers on Facebook, I guess I might as well start watching the show (I wanted to wait for the books, but it's looking increasingly unlikely that I won't know the whole plot of the show by the time they are released...)

So...my thing about this. I believe that while there will be spoilers in the show, I believe the show diverges enough from the books that it isn't a real concern of mine. Like euron becoming king. Happened in the show. Happened in the books. Had that book not been written yet, yeah. Spoilers. But then consider how it happened in the show vs the books. So in that sense, yeah. Spoilers. But I trust that 1) the books will still make those events that are spoiled better and 2) the book and show diverges enough that we can't be 100% certain of spoilers that happen.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #551 on: May 24, 2016, 02:54:54 pm »
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...you realize that I don't really want to look into anything spoilered in this thread, right?

Also, I don't know the specifics of whatever happened to Hodor, but the little I (wish I didn't) know seems unlikely to be different in the book.

EDIT: didn't see the new page. Yeah, but if I am going to get those things pseudo spoiled anyway, I might as well follow the show, and get some more emotional impact than random surprise ambush memes.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 02:57:41 pm by pacovf »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #552 on: May 24, 2016, 02:56:03 pm »
+1

I believe he is asking you to... hold the spoilers.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #553 on: May 24, 2016, 02:56:47 pm »
0

I just came here to complain about the pseudo-spoilers in the Random Stuff thread. Also, since apparently there is NO WAY to avoid spoilers on Facebook, I guess I might as well start watching the show (I wanted to wait for the books, but it's looking increasingly unlikely that I won't know the whole plot of the show by the time they are released...)

So...my thing about this. I believe that while there will be spoilers in the show, I believe the show diverges enough from the books that it isn't a real concern of mine. Like euron becoming king. Happened in the show. Happened in the books. Had that book not been written yet, yeah. Spoilers. But then consider how it happened in the show vs the books. So in that sense, yeah. Spoilers. But I trust that 1) the books will still make those events that are spoiled better and 2) the book and show diverges enough that we can't be 100% certain of spoilers that happen.
Exactly
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #554 on: May 24, 2016, 02:59:30 pm »
+1

...you realize that I don't really want to look into anything spoilered in this thread, right?

Also, I don't know the specifics of whatever happened to Hodor, but the little I (wish I didn't) know seems unlikely to be different in the book.

EDIT: didn't see the new page. Yeah, but if I am going to get those things pseudo spoiled anyway, I might as well follow the show, and get some more emotional impact than random surprise ambush memes.
If you are referring to me in paragraph 1, the spoiler part contains only differences between books 1-5 and the show. There aren't any tWoW spoilers in there.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #555 on: May 24, 2016, 05:37:32 pm »
0

Spoilers la~:

One thing interesting with Bran; he's now pretty vulnerable.  They also didn't get much of a head start on those skeletons, and Meera can't pull that sled as fast as Hodor could.  Judging from the trailer for next episode, they're still in eminent danger.  Even without that, they can't have many supplies.  It seems likely they're going to get some additional help to get out of this alive.  Maybe Coldhands finally?  Uncle Benjen? 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #556 on: May 24, 2016, 05:58:24 pm »
0

Spoilers la~:

One thing interesting with Bran; he's now pretty vulnerable.  They also didn't get much of a head start on those skeletons, and Meera can't pull that sled as fast as Hodor could.  Judging from the trailer for next episode, they're still in eminent danger.  Even without that, they can't have many supplies.  It seems likely they're going to get some additional help to get out of this alive.  Maybe Coldhands finally?  Uncle Benjen?
The show isn't quite subtle regarding those topics. Since benjen was named twice/three times this season i expect hin to show up. If benjen=coldhands in the books is still questinoable
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #557 on: May 24, 2016, 09:52:58 pm »
+1

And by the way, i murdered your king

Yeah, that scene bugged me because Yara had nothing to lose by getting her revenge. She seemed the type to skewer him and then look at the others and say, "You heard the bastard. He signed his own death warrant with that confession."
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #558 on: May 25, 2016, 06:27:28 pm »
0



A week late, but that letter is **** amazing.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #559 on: May 25, 2016, 06:47:14 pm »
0


A week late, but that letter is **** amazing.

If we only knew who has written it...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #560 on: May 25, 2016, 07:03:48 pm »
0


A week late, but that letter is **** amazing.

If we only knew who has written it...

I heard a theory that it was little finger. I think that's probably the case.

He said Come and See to the lord of the vale when he gave him his falcon. Coincidence? Hardly.

but that just makes it even better.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #561 on: May 26, 2016, 05:57:34 am »
+1


A week late, but that letter is **** amazing.

If we only knew who has written it...
:O

I didn't even THINK this.  I'm far too trusting and would not last a minute in the ASOIAF universe.  Mind.  Blown.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #562 on: May 26, 2016, 07:39:28 am »
0

I can blow your mind further. Come and see.

The Umber who brought Rickon to Ramsy might have been paid/instructed by Little Finger aswell. Note that he refused to kneel, which might not appear to be significant, but if he is actually loyal to the Starks and plans to betray Ramsy, then it actually is. Littlefinger might more or less plan the whole thing. We might see a dead Ramsy soon.

All speculation, though. And not even my own theory  :(

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #563 on: May 26, 2016, 08:46:35 am »
0

I can blow your mind further. Come and see.

The Umber who brought Rickon to Ramsy might have been paid/instructed by Little Finger aswell. Note that he refused to kneel, which might not appear to be significant, but if he is actually loyal to the Starks and plans to betray Ramsy, then it actually is. Littlefinger might more or less plan the whole thing. We might see a dead Ramsy soon.

All speculation, though. And not even my own theory  :(

However, i don't think Littlefinger is loyal to the Starks either ;)
Bookspoiler: At least in the books, i expect Mance to be the writer.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #564 on: May 26, 2016, 08:49:23 am »
0

Not reading the bookspoiler!

But yeah, I would be very surprised if he gives a damn about the starks. I don't know what his plan is or who it benefits.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #565 on: May 26, 2016, 08:55:56 am »
0

Not reading the bookspoiler!

But yeah, I would be very surprised if he gives a damn about the starks. I don't know what his plan is or who it benefits.
I can recommend this video regarding the topic (and the follow ups). Its written in regard of the books, but the information is almost the same
(except for the unreasonable stuff in Season 5/6 and a few very small bookspoilers)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 09:04:04 am by Calamitas »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #566 on: May 31, 2016, 07:24:07 pm »
+2

WTF! No-one died !

(White Walkers don't count)

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #567 on: June 01, 2016, 09:07:55 am »
+1

WTF! No-one died !

(White Walkers don't count)

I don't think any white walkers died. Only wights. And they really don't count because they're already dead.

However, if you count the initial scene with flashbacks, we've seen the Mad King and Lyanna die.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #568 on: June 01, 2016, 09:46:36 am »
0

WTF! No-one died !

(White Walkers don't count)

I don't think any white walkers died. Only wights. And they really don't count because they're already dead.

However, if you count the initial scene with flashbacks, we've seen the Mad King and Lyanna die.

And Robb.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #569 on: June 01, 2016, 11:21:23 am »
0

I kind of liked how they reminded us of the events from previous seasons within a play. I could have stood to see Arya's story expanded just to see more of the play, especially with how they perverted the perception of other characters.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #570 on: June 01, 2016, 11:32:32 am »
0

Any thoughts about Sam taking Heartsbane? Do you think tbere is some plan behind it or is it just stupid by him (doesn't fit to sams character either), since his father is definetly going to hunt him. If they want to make it anyhow realistic then he would get caught after a minute or so (aren't there supposed to be guards???).
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #571 on: June 01, 2016, 11:39:41 am »
0

Any thoughts about Sam taking Heartsbane? Do you think tbere is some plan behind it or is it just stupid by him (doesn't fit to sams character either), since his father is definetly going to hunt him. If they want to make it anyhow realistic then he would get caught after a minute or so (aren't there supposed to be guards???).

I think it will be important since it's Valerian steel.  There are not many of those swords left, and Sam knows they will be necessary.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #572 on: June 01, 2016, 11:50:03 am »
0

Any thoughts about Sam taking Heartsbane? Do you think tbere is some plan behind it or is it just stupid by him (doesn't fit to sams character either), since his father is definetly going to hunt him. If they want to make it anyhow realistic then he would get caught after a minute or so (aren't there supposed to be guards???).

I think it will be important since it's Valerian steel.  There are not many of those swords left, and Sam knows they will be necessary.
Yeah of course, but i meant a plan which enables him to get in a situation to make use of it...After stealing it, he shouldn't be able to go to Oldtown (first place for Randyll to look for him) even if he can get out of the Hornhill area (what shouldn't happen). Getting back to the wall seems like a longshot as well (without preparation) since Randyll has the resources and the power to stop him right on the way (remember that he is travelling with a child and will not be able to ride hart for a long time).
But it's the show, so we will see...
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 11:51:27 am by Calamitas »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #573 on: June 01, 2016, 12:06:36 pm »
0

I'm not sure Randyll is willing to assault the Citadel.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #574 on: June 01, 2016, 12:12:35 pm »
0

I'm not sure Randyll is willing to assault the Citadel.
A thief and (somehow) an outbreaker shouldn't be even allowed to forge a chain...And i wouldn't expect Sam to be able to reach oldtown before randyll does (he is, if everything is working as smooth as possible, one night in advance. That doesn't seem to be enough to outweigh the disadvantage of being forced to hide and Randylls advantage of having all possible ressources.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #575 on: June 01, 2016, 12:14:16 pm »
0

Any thoughts about Sam taking Heartsbane? Do you think tbere is some plan behind it or is it just stupid by him (doesn't fit to sams character either), since his father is definetly going to hunt him. If they want to make it anyhow realistic then he would get caught after a minute or so (aren't there supposed to be guards???).

I think it will be important since it's Valerian steel.  There are not many of those swords left, and Sam knows they will be necessary.
Yeah of course, but i meant a plan which enables him to get in a situation to make use of it...After stealing it, he shouldn't be able to go to Oldtown (first place for Randyll to look for him) even if he can get out of the Hornhill area (what shouldn't happen). Getting back to the wall seems like a longshot as well (without preparation) since Randyll has the resources and the power to stop him right on the way (remember that he is travelling with a child and will not be able to ride hart for a long time).
But it's the show, so we will see...

Well, I don't think the suspension of disbelief is too extreme.  I doubt the guards really understand the inner workings of the Tarly family.  It's the middle of the night, and Sam is the son of the lord, and a member of the night's watch  Randyll probably doesn't expect him to have the courage to disobey, so he would not have given any outstanding orders regarding Sam.  So he can get out, and get a head start. 

I suppose in the morning they could send riders to overtake Sam, or if there is some kind of outpost send ravens.  Then making it to Oldtown could be pretty hard.

I assume he's going to make it regardless.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #576 on: June 01, 2016, 12:20:10 pm »
0

What matters more is that it's an important development for Sam, who finally disobeys his father (even if not to his face).  Sam is gaining some courage and confidence from his experiences north of the wall, though he initially regressed.  There could be a confrontation later.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #577 on: June 01, 2016, 12:25:05 pm »
0

Oldtown may have its own agenda. You say that a thief and oathbreaker shouldn't be allowed to forge a chain, but that's an ideal you hold that isn't necessarily held up in practise. Maesters are human too! I don't think anybody considers Pycelle to be particularly honourable but he's the Grand Maester.

So there may be characters in Oldtown who are sympathetic to Sam's plight, or who want to hear about his knowledge of and experience with the white walkers,  or who simply despise Lord Tarly and want to stick it to him.

We also don't know that much about Lord Tarly's personality on the show. Maybe he'll actually approve of Sam showing some backbone for a change.

He may also be sidetracked by other events happening in Westeros and become too busy to go after Sam.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #578 on: June 01, 2016, 12:27:05 pm »
0

Oldtown may have its own agenda. You say that a thief and oathbreaker shouldn't be allowed to forge a chain, but that's an ideal you hold that isn't necessarily held up in practise. Maesters are human too! I don't think anybody considers Pycelle to be particularly honourable but he's the Grand Maester.

So there may be characters in Oldtown who are sympathetic to Sam's plight, or who want to hear about his knowledge of and experience with the white walkers,  or who simply despise Lord Tarly and want to stick it to him.

We also don't know that much about Lord Tarly's personality on the show. Maybe he'll actually approve of Sam showing some backbone for a change.

He may also be sidetracked by other events happening in Westeros and become too busy to go after Sam.
The lannisters went to Valyria for their family sword...

Edit: However, your thoughts about the maesters are really interesting. After thinking a while, bringing Marwyn into the game might is making absolute sense. (However, Sam is still acting stupid by taking the sword which is out of character)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 12:33:32 pm by Calamitas »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #579 on: June 01, 2016, 12:31:31 pm »
0

Oldtown may have its own agenda. You say that a thief and oathbreaker shouldn't be allowed to forge a chain, but that's an ideal you hold that isn't necessarily held up in practise. Maesters are human too! I don't think anybody considers Pycelle to be particularly honourable but he's the Grand Maester.

So there may be characters in Oldtown who are sympathetic to Sam's plight, or who want to hear about his knowledge of and experience with the white walkers,  or who simply despise Lord Tarly and want to stick it to him.

We also don't know that much about Lord Tarly's personality on the show. Maybe he'll actually approve of Sam showing some backbone for a change.

He may also be sidetracked by other events happening in Westeros and become too busy to go after Sam.
The lannisters went to Valyria for their family sword...

No? They melted down Ice. But even if that were true, the Lannisters' ability to multitask doesn't say much about Tarly's ability, and their situations are different. The Lannisters hold the Iron Throne, after all.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #580 on: June 01, 2016, 12:37:03 pm »
0

Oldtown may have its own agenda. You say that a thief and oathbreaker shouldn't be allowed to forge a chain, but that's an ideal you hold that isn't necessarily held up in practise. Maesters are human too! I don't think anybody considers Pycelle to be particularly honourable but he's the Grand Maester.

So there may be characters in Oldtown who are sympathetic to Sam's plight, or who want to hear about his knowledge of and experience with the white walkers,  or who simply despise Lord Tarly and want to stick it to him.

We also don't know that much about Lord Tarly's personality on the show. Maybe he'll actually approve of Sam showing some backbone for a change.

He may also be sidetracked by other events happening in Westeros and become too busy to go after Sam.
The lannisters went to Valyria for their family sword...

No? They melted down Ice. But even if that were true, the Lannisters' ability to multitask doesn't say much about Tarly's ability, and their situations are different. The Lannisters hold the Iron Throne, after all.
Quote from Asoiaf wiki:
"Brightroar was a Valyrian steel sword in the possession of House Lannister and wielded by the Kings of the Rock in the days before the Targaryen conquest. King Tommen II Lannister of the Rock led an ill-fated expedition to Valyria from which he did not return, and the sword was lost. In 292 AL, Gerion Lannister travelled to the ruins of Valyria in search of it, but also did not return."

Well, that is true of course but it representes the immense value a family sword is having in westeros. (And more than two riders aren't necessary for taking it back)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #581 on: June 01, 2016, 12:44:48 pm »
0

Oldtown may have its own agenda. You say that a thief and oathbreaker shouldn't be allowed to forge a chain, but that's an ideal you hold that isn't necessarily held up in practise. Maesters are human too! I don't think anybody considers Pycelle to be particularly honourable but he's the Grand Maester.

So there may be characters in Oldtown who are sympathetic to Sam's plight, or who want to hear about his knowledge of and experience with the white walkers,  or who simply despise Lord Tarly and want to stick it to him.

We also don't know that much about Lord Tarly's personality on the show. Maybe he'll actually approve of Sam showing some backbone for a change.

He may also be sidetracked by other events happening in Westeros and become too busy to go after Sam.
The lannisters went to Valyria for their family sword...

No? They melted down Ice. But even if that were true, the Lannisters' ability to multitask doesn't say much about Tarly's ability, and their situations are different. The Lannisters hold the Iron Throne, after all.
Quote from Asoiaf wiki:
"Brightroar was a Valyrian steel sword in the possession of House Lannister and wielded by the Kings of the Rock in the days before the Targaryen conquest. King Tommen II Lannister of the Rock led an ill-fated expedition to Valyria from which he did not return, and the sword was lost. In 292 AL, Gerion Lannister travelled to the ruins of Valyria in search of it, but also did not return."

Well, that is true of course but it representes the immense value a family sword is having in westeros. (And more than two riders aren't necessary for taking it back)

Oh,  those events are so far back in history that we don't have the context to compare situations. Gerion Lannister may have been free to go questing, but that doesn't mean Randyll Tarly is. And it's not like Heartsbane is lost. Its location is known and it's in the hands of a Tarly. If Randyll gets called to some other duty, he may opt to track down Sam later.

Even if he does send someone after Sam (like his other son, maybe), ongoing events may tie him up and prevent him from going himself or deploying the full resources of his house, affording Sam a greater chance of escape.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 12:46:04 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #582 on: June 01, 2016, 12:52:37 pm »
0

Oldtown may have its own agenda. You say that a thief and oathbreaker shouldn't be allowed to forge a chain, but that's an ideal you hold that isn't necessarily held up in practise. Maesters are human too! I don't think anybody considers Pycelle to be particularly honourable but he's the Grand Maester.

So there may be characters in Oldtown who are sympathetic to Sam's plight, or who want to hear about his knowledge of and experience with the white walkers,  or who simply despise Lord Tarly and want to stick it to him.

We also don't know that much about Lord Tarly's personality on the show. Maybe he'll actually approve of Sam showing some backbone for a change.

He may also be sidetracked by other events happening in Westeros and become too busy to go after Sam.
The lannisters went to Valyria for their family sword...

No? They melted down Ice. But even if that were true, the Lannisters' ability to multitask doesn't say much about Tarly's ability, and their situations are different. The Lannisters hold the Iron Throne, after all.
Quote from Asoiaf wiki:
"Brightroar was a Valyrian steel sword in the possession of House Lannister and wielded by the Kings of the Rock in the days before the Targaryen conquest. King Tommen II Lannister of the Rock led an ill-fated expedition to Valyria from which he did not return, and the sword was lost. In 292 AL, Gerion Lannister travelled to the ruins of Valyria in search of it, but also did not return."

Well, that is true of course but it representes the immense value a family sword is having in westeros. (And more than two riders aren't necessary for taking it back)

Oh,  those events are so far back in history that we don't have the context to compare situations. Gerion Lannister may have been free to go questing, but that doesn't mean Randyll Tarly is. And it's not like Heartsbane is lost. Its location is known and it's in the hands of a Tarly. If Randyll gets called to some other duty, he may opt to track down Sam later.

Even if he does send someone after Sam (like his other son, maybe), ongoing events may tie him up and prevent him from going himself or deploying the full resources of his house, affording Sam a greater chance of escape.
Of course that may happen (and is probably going to happen), no objections there. But Sam couldn't possibly know of these problems (except if some crazy glass candel stuff has been done by marwyn) and would have acted insanely stupid. He is one out of very few with the knowledge and the opportunity (citadel) to do something about the Others. Throwing away this chance (with great likelihood) for some kind of revenge and just for pushing himself is absolutely unreasonable and totally out of character.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 12:54:46 pm by Calamitas »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #583 on: June 01, 2016, 12:58:24 pm »
0

Of course that may happen (and is probably going to happen), no objections there. But Sam couldn't possibly know of these problems (except if some crazy glass candel stuff has been done by marwyn) and would have acted insanely stupid. He is one out of very few with the knowledge and the opportunity (citadel) to do something about the Others. Throwing away this chance (with great likelyhood) for some kind of revenge and just for pushing himself is absolutely unreasonable and so much out of character.

I was never arguing about whether Sam was being intelligent here. He's probably not. :P

But he's not necessarily throwing away his chance. His knowledge is valuable to the Citadel regardless of the theft, and he can even argue that the theft was necessary because of his knowledge (Valyrian Steel needed to help fight the Others, but Randyll doesn't believe they exist).

And it's part of his character arc. It might not fit with the Sam we knew, but that's because he's growing and changing like good characters (and real people) do.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #584 on: June 01, 2016, 01:03:48 pm »
0

Of course that may happen (and is probably going to happen), no objections there. But Sam couldn't possibly know of these problems (except if some crazy glass candel stuff has been done by marwyn) and would have acted insanely stupid. He is one out of very few with the knowledge and the opportunity (citadel) to do something about the Others. Throwing away this chance (with great likelyhood) for some kind of revenge and just for pushing himself is absolutely unreasonable and so much out of character.

I was never arguing about whether Sam was being intelligent here. He's probably not. :P

But he's not necessarily throwing away his chance. His knowledge is valuable to the Citadel regardless of the theft, and he can even argue that the theft was necessary because of his knowledge (Valyrian Steel needed to help fight the Others, but Randyll doesn't believe they exist).

And it's part of his character arc. It might not fit with the Sam we knew, but that's because he's growing and changing like good characters (and real people) do.
Growing and development is happening here of course, but that kind of change is just too much. It would be like Arya suddenly feeling dedicated to needlework (The one septa mordane would appreciate).
And of course, he is not throwing his chances away for sure. But the probabilty of becoming a maester has just shrinked to a tiny bit (great chance of being caught, being rejected,...)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #585 on: June 01, 2016, 02:07:49 pm »
0

I have no problems at all with what Sam is doing. He's been humiliated, this is his chance to strike back, he's motivated by Gilly... makes perfect sense to me.

Like, really. The woman he's in love with and who probably means more to him than anyone else-- he can't have her thinking he's weak. It'd be more weird if he didn't do this.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #586 on: June 01, 2016, 03:43:05 pm »
0

Growing and development is happening here of course, but that kind of change is just too much. It would be like Arya suddenly feeling dedicated to needlework (The one septa mordane would appreciate).
And of course, he is not throwing his chances away for sure. But the probabilty of becoming a maester has just shrinked to a tiny bit (great chance of being caught, being rejected,...)

I disagree.  Sam has been getting bolder for a long while now.  And I don't think enough details have been provided to say that his chance of becoming a maester is now tiny.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #587 on: June 01, 2016, 03:47:14 pm »
0

Growing and development is happening here of course, but that kind of change is just too much. It would be like Arya suddenly feeling dedicated to needlework (The one septa mordane would appreciate).
And of course, he is not throwing his chances away for sure. But the probabilty of becoming a maester has just shrinked to a tiny bit (great chance of being caught, being rejected,...)

I disagree.  Sam has been getting bolder for a long while now.  And I don't think enough details have been provided to say that his chance of becoming a maester is now tiny.
The chance of becoming a maester when right in front of the citadel is not tiny. But the probability of him reaching it is surely tiny.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #588 on: June 01, 2016, 03:53:08 pm »
0

I have no problems at all with what Sam is doing. He's been humiliated, this is his chance to strike back, he's motivated by Gilly... makes perfect sense to me.

Like, really. The woman he's in love with and who probably means more to him than anyone else-- he can't have her thinking he's weak. It'd be more weird if he didn't do this.
Exaktly, Gilly (and her son) means probably more to him than anything else on the world. Even his pride!
And the decision to take heartsbane is actually endangering them a lot. If taken, I wouldn't expect Randyll to treat them gentle...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #589 on: June 01, 2016, 04:09:32 pm »
0

Growing and development is happening here of course, but that kind of change is just too much. It would be like Arya suddenly feeling dedicated to needlework (The one septa mordane would appreciate).
And of course, he is not throwing his chances away for sure. But the probabilty of becoming a maester has just shrinked to a tiny bit (great chance of being caught, being rejected,...)

I disagree.  Sam has been getting bolder for a long while now.  And I don't think enough details have been provided to say that his chance of becoming a maester is now tiny.
The chance of becoming a maester when right in front of the citadel is not tiny. But the probability of him reaching it is surely tiny.

Not surely.  Again, not enough details.  Lord Tarly might be impressed by his son's boldness, he might get tied up by other responsibilities, he might be persuaded to go easy on them by his wife.  There are so many possibilities.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #590 on: June 01, 2016, 04:10:47 pm »
+1

Even smart people don't always make the best decisions.  Maybe he's caught up in his newfound rebellious side.

He may also realize that having the sword will be paramount not far down the road.  He may imagine he'll be able to manage whatever happens in the short term, or that it's worth the risk.  The ultimate goal is still to defeat the White Walkers.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #591 on: June 01, 2016, 04:19:25 pm »
0

Even smart people don't always make the best decisions.  Maybe he's caught up in his newfound rebellious side.

He may also realize that having the sword will be paramount not far down the road.  He may imagine he'll be able to manage whatever happens in the short term, or that it's worth the risk.  The ultimate goal is still to defeat the White Walkers.
One sword will definetly not make a difference...

And i know that 'smart' people are not making perfect decisions. But something like that is just insane...Risking their life and their advance is absolutely unreasonable and just not necessary then. He surely knows that his father will act furious (cf. Sams statements about his dad from season 1/aGot).
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #592 on: June 06, 2016, 07:37:53 pm »
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So did that nameless girl leave Arya alive on purpose? She didn't, right? Did she really think Arya was dead? Or did she think that she couldn't do anything anymore?

I'm glad that Arya didn't beat her, I think that would have been unrealistic and I was afraid it would happen, but this scene confused me.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #593 on: June 07, 2016, 04:05:04 am »
0

Took me about a minute in to realize that this was where we would see Sandor Clegane returned.  I was pleased to figure it out before it was actually revealed, if only by 45 seconds or so.

Really like the show's version of Lady Mormont.  I hope she's similar when she appears in the books.

OTOH, the show's version of The Blackfish is a lot grimmer than I remember.  Still like him though.

I'm now expecting that Arya will end up on the doorstep of the Lord of Light in the next episode.  I gotta say, the Waif's carelessness is disappointing given how good the Faceless Men are supposed to be.

One change from the books that may be major and may not actually be a change: Maege Mormont is reported to be dead.  In the books, she was sent away on an errand by Robb just before the Red Wedding and, IIRC, there are some major fan theories about all that.  Likewise for Galbart Glover, who was actually sent with the She-Bear.  Actually, now that I think about it, both were brought up in this episode, almost as if to remind viewers of their existence.  That could be a set-up for confirmation that they are alive and well, as they bring in some new Plot Device to help Jon and Sansa.  At the very least, it could get the Glovers on side.  Also potentially significant, but not new from this episode -- apparently Lyanna Mormont is an only-child in the show, whereas in the books she is the youngest of several sisters who have made appearances elsewhere, some of whom may still be plot relevant.

So did that nameless girl leave Arya alive on purpose? She didn't, right? Did she really think Arya was dead? Or did she think that she couldn't do anything anymore?

I'm glad that Arya didn't beat her, I think that would have been unrealistic and I was afraid it would happen, but this scene confused me.

I'd say that the waif intended for Arya to die, and she did wait a little bit to see if she would resurface.  Even so, I think it was a mischaracterization of the Faceless Men for them not to absolutely confirm the kill.  I'm interested to see how the books handle it, if it happens in the books.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #594 on: June 07, 2016, 04:36:41 am »
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Even so, I think it was a mischaracterization of the Faceless Men for them not to absolutely confirm the kill.

Yeah, I agree.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #595 on: June 07, 2016, 09:24:02 am »
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Took me about a minute in to realize that this was where we would see Sandor Clegane returned.  I was pleased to figure it out before it was actually revealed, if only by 45 seconds or so.

At first I thought it was Bran the Builder in a vision of Bran's, because it for some reason seemed like it was set far in the past.  I thought the structure being built was the beginnings of Winterfell or something..

Quote
OTOH, the show's version of The Blackfish is a lot grimmer than I remember.  Still like him though.

Well, he hasn't had much of a pleasant time lately.

Quote
I'm now expecting that Arya will end up on the doorstep of the Lord of Light in the next episode.  I gotta say, the Waif's carelessness is disappointing given how good the Faceless Men are supposed to be.

My guess is that The Waif was playing with her, to draw out the death and make her suffer (like she was told not to).  I think The Waif is certain she won't lose, even if she toys with Arya.  Or there's some kind of ruse going on.

Regarding the Faceless Men, it was never clear to me how their transaction works. Have we ever seen payment take place?  When they were introduced, it seemed as if people came in and prayed.  Are they simply assassins for hire, and the entire 'temple' thing is just a front? 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #596 on: June 07, 2016, 09:44:18 am »
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My guess is that The Waif was playing with her, to draw out the death and make her suffer (like she was told not to).  I think The Waif is certain she won't lose, even if she toys with Arya.  Or there's some kind of ruse going on.
That'd be cool.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #597 on: June 07, 2016, 09:44:44 am »
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I assume that the faceless men don't want Arya dead. I think that they have further plans regarding her, otherwise their behaviour would be very unreasonable. Arya was clearly "failing" all the time, she was never on the path of becoming "no one".
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #598 on: June 07, 2016, 09:55:29 am »
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My guess is that The Waif was playing with her, to draw out the death and make her suffer (like she was told not to).  I think The Waif is certain she won't lose, even if she toys with Arya.  Or there's some kind of ruse going on.


This would be a reasonable interpretation. I hope that is the direction they’re going with it, because it plays up the dynamic between the two adherents.

And what Calamitas says makes sense. I don’t recall him commanding to kill, though he did command to not let her suffer, and that’s pretty much the opposite. The Faceless Men are not like normal people anyway; who’s to say what their definition of suffering is?

I’ve been waiting for 5 seasons for Arya to be reunited with her dire wolf. Do I remember the first season correctly that she let the wolf go to save it? All during her time traveling in Westeros, I was expecting that wolf to suddenly show up and save her. If I’m not wrong in the status of the wolf, maybe it’ll show up when she does return to Westeros.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #599 on: June 07, 2016, 09:59:31 am »
0

My guess is that The Waif was playing with her, to draw out the death and make her suffer (like she was told not to).  I think The Waif is certain she won't lose, even if she toys with Arya.  Or there's some kind of ruse going on.


This would be a reasonable interpretation. I hope that is the direction they’re going with it, because it plays up the dynamic between the two adherents.

And what Calamitas says makes sense. I don’t recall him commanding to kill, though he did command to not let her suffer, and that’s pretty much the opposite. The Faceless Men are not like normal people anyway; who’s to say what their definition of suffering is?

I’ve been waiting for 5 seasons for Arya to be reunited with her dire wolf. Do I remember the first season correctly that she let the wolf go to save it? All during her time traveling in Westeros, I was expecting that wolf to suddenly show up and save her. If I’m not wrong in the status of the wolf, maybe it’ll show up when she does return to Westeros.
She threw stones to Nymeria to make her leave. It was right after Nymeria hurting Joffrey (even though he deserved it).

However, that theory (waif playing with her) would proof that being "no one" is just a farce and nowhere near reality within their guild.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #600 on: June 07, 2016, 10:11:58 am »
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However, that theory (waif playing with her) would proof that being "no one" is just a farce and nowhere near reality within their guild.

Well, or that the girl is not truly one of them.  Not everyone with a creed actually upholds it.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #601 on: June 07, 2016, 11:15:41 am »
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It could be that she simply didn't confirm the kill.  I don't necessarily agree that it's a mischaracterisation of the Faceless Men; my impression is that the waif is not fully trained, she's just further along than Arya.  So she might well screw up with that.

In any case, I know people survive a lot of crap in this universe, but how Arya is expected to live after being repeatedly stabbed in the gut, losing that much blood and exposing her innards to what is presumably a not-very-clean river is completely beyond me.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #602 on: June 07, 2016, 11:19:56 am »
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It could be that she simply didn't confirm the kill.  I don't necessarily agree that it's a mischaracterisation of the Faceless Men; my impression is that the waif is not fully trained, she's just further along than Arya.  So she might well screw up with that.

In any case, I know people survive a lot of crap in this universe, but how Arya is expected to live after being repeatedly stabbed in the gut, losing that much blood and exposing her innards to what is presumably a not-very-clean river is completely beyond me.

There are some theories that she wore some padding with fake blood, because she knew they would come after her.  She's also leaving a trail of blood (camera makes a point of this), so maybe she's planning an ambush when she's followed.  Of course, that takes foresight that she would get stabbed in the gut and not have her throat slit.  Other theories are that it is Jaquen using her face, sacrificing his life for hers.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #603 on: June 07, 2016, 12:04:23 pm »
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It could be that she simply didn't confirm the kill.  I don't necessarily agree that it's a mischaracterisation of the Faceless Men; my impression is that the waif is not fully trained, she's just further along than Arya.  So she might well screw up with that.

In any case, I know people survive a lot of crap in this universe, but how Arya is expected to live after being repeatedly stabbed in the gut, losing that much blood and exposing her innards to what is presumably a not-very-clean river is completely beyond me.

There are some theories that she wore some padding with fake blood, because she knew they would come after her.  She's also leaving a trail of blood (camera makes a point of this), so maybe she's planning an ambush when she's followed.  Of course, that takes foresight that she would get stabbed in the gut and not have her throat slit.  Other theories are that it is Jaquen using her face, sacrificing his life for hers.
Its the show, Arya will probably just survive :D

As far as i know fm can only wear faces from dead people, which is even included in the show ("one way or the other, a face will be added to the hall"). But consistency is quite another matter...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #604 on: June 07, 2016, 12:10:26 pm »
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My guess is that The Waif was playing with her, to draw out the death and make her suffer (like she was told not to).  I think The Waif is certain she won't lose, even if she toys with Arya.  Or there's some kind of ruse going on.


This would be a reasonable interpretation. I hope that is the direction they’re going with it, because it plays up the dynamic between the two adherents.

And what Calamitas says makes sense. I don’t recall him commanding to kill, though he did command to not let her suffer, and that’s pretty much the opposite. The Faceless Men are not like normal people anyway; who’s to say what their definition of suffering is?

I’ve been waiting for 5 seasons for Arya to be reunited with her dire wolf. Do I remember the first season correctly that she let the wolf go to save it? All during her time traveling in Westeros, I was expecting that wolf to suddenly show up and save her. If I’m not wrong in the status of the wolf, maybe it’ll show up when she does return to Westeros.

You remember correctly, and there were tantalizing hints as to what Nymeria was up to all throughout the books. Soldiers hearing howls, news of a particularly large and dangerous pack, and Arya's warg dreams.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #605 on: June 09, 2016, 09:39:34 am »
+2

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #607 on: June 09, 2016, 12:49:25 pm »
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Best episode of the season I thought!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #608 on: June 09, 2016, 12:50:43 pm »
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Best episode of the season I thought!
What? Why???
I have regarded it as one of the worst...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #609 on: June 13, 2016, 09:18:26 am »
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A girl is awfully spry for someone recovering from serious knife wounds to the gut. I guess this is where suspension of disbelief comes in. Despite that, I thought her progression in the story was pretty good.

I like that Tyrion is seeing his plan fall apart. I can see where he was going with this, but it’s like a case of his Westeros politicking doesn’t mesh well with the might-is-right attitude in the east. Looks like he’ll get a stern talking to (and possible banishment?), which is actually far better than what I predicted, which is someone flat-out murdering him for working with the slavers.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #610 on: June 13, 2016, 08:37:10 pm »
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I liked the episode. Blackfish, The Hound, King's Landing, all three surprised me in how they progressed. I would not like it if the show became predictable.

That said, I have no idea what the attackers in the east are thinking. I mean... there is this thing called a dragon that can cast fire. Last time I checked ships are made off wood and sink if they catch fire. What do they think is going to happen?

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #611 on: June 13, 2016, 10:19:51 pm »
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I liked the episode. Blackfish, The Hound, King's Landing, all three surprised me in how they progressed. I would not like it if the show became predictable.

That said, I have no idea what the attackers in the east are thinking. I mean... there is this thing called a dragon that can cast fire. Last time I checked ships are made off wood and sink if they catch fire. What do they think is going to happen?

I'm guessing that word of the disappearance of the Queen of Dragons made it to them, and they thought they would strike while she was away. So they likely would be shitting their pants now.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if someone devised a dragon countermeasure. Drogo was hurt pretty bad when he rescued her from the attack.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #612 on: June 14, 2016, 02:19:24 am »
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I'm disappointed that the show chose to contradict the book and kill off the Blackfish.

At long last, I am totally expecting that Lady Stoneheart will appear before the season ends.  Catelyn is mentioned with increasing frequency, and now Beric Dondarrion and Thoros have returned simply to muse about how they must be here for a purpose.  We already know what purpose that is in the books, so....  (Interestingly, the "experts" reviewer for the AV Club thinks that the possibility is dwindling after this episode.  I get that there was a natural point here for the introduction, but I figure that they just really wanted to remind everybody of Dondarrion and Thoros' resurrection power rather than just bringing it back out of nowhere.)

I thought Arya's storyline was concluded strangely here; I hope the books handle it better.  Well actually, I can think of one way the books are already set up to do better.  Basically, the show hasn't convinced me that Arya has become skilled enough that she could defeat the waif in combat, especially in the dark; the waif has been doing this a lot longer and Arya's gambit at the end with snuffing out the candle doesn't make sense to me because I think it would disadvantage Arya more than her opponent.  Whereas in the books, we've seen Arya demonstrate a skill that the Faceless Men know nothing about -- she's a warg, which could give her the upper hand in certain situations.  Basically everything to do with the House of Black and White has been rather poorly done on the show.  The assassins seem awfully incompetent and impotent compared to their book counterparts.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #613 on: June 14, 2016, 10:06:41 am »
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I'm disappointed that the show chose to contradict the book and kill off the Blackfish.

Well, we don't know that he won't die in some analogous way.  But I was disappointed there.  I don't much care for that "I'm just going to sacrifice myself for no real gain" way of killing off characters.

Quote
At long last, I am totally expecting that Lady Stoneheart will appear before the season ends.  Catelyn is mentioned with increasing frequency, and now Beric Dondarrion and Thoros have returned simply to muse about how they must be here for a purpose.  We already know what purpose that is in the books, so....  (Interestingly, the "experts" reviewer for the AV Club thinks that the possibility is dwindling after this episode.  I get that there was a natural point here for the introduction, but I figure that they just really wanted to remind everybody of Dondarrion and Thoros' resurrection power rather than just bringing it back out of nowhere.)

Man, I thought she was going to appear in that scene, as an final before-credits reveal.  (I wasn't checking the time to see it wasn't the end of the show.)  The setting felt so perfect.  I started getting super excited and my heart rate went up.  I really hope it happens, though.  Will be epic.

Quote
I thought Arya's storyline was concluded strangely here; I hope the books handle it better.  Well actually, I can think of one way the books are already set up to do better.  Basically, the show hasn't convinced me that Arya has become skilled enough that she could defeat the waif in combat, especially in the dark; the waif has been doing this a lot longer and Arya's gambit at the end with snuffing out the candle doesn't make sense to me because I think it would disadvantage Arya more than her opponent.  Whereas in the books, we've seen Arya demonstrate a skill that the Faceless Men know nothing about -- she's a warg, which could give her the upper hand in certain situations.  Basically everything to do with the House of Black and White has been rather poorly done on the show.  The assassins seem awfully incompetent and impotent compared to their book counterparts.

Yeah, I generally agree here.  But I love Arya so I'm rolling with it.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #614 on: June 14, 2016, 11:59:56 am »
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Well, of the notable deaths in this episode, it's interesting to note that they were not on screen.

That does not preclude them from still being alive. It seems unlikely that those deaths could have been avoided, but I suppose there could be a mortal wound or something. Negotiations seem unlikely.

But for a show that pulls no punches in portraying people dying messily, they were awfully sketchy about those scenes. I could see the fight between Arya and the Waif being glossed over to avoid showing an awkward fight.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #615 on: June 20, 2016, 02:43:25 am »
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I think the choreography in Battle of the Bastards may be the best of the series so far.  It was so good.

Only three minor nitpicks, all of which may have reasonable explanations:

1. Rickon running in a straight line, making him an incredibly easy target.  I'm no expert, but I think zigzagging would have given him a pretty good of evading the arrows, given the amount of lead that would be required.

Explanation: Rickon just isn't very smart even on a good day, and there's virtually no chance of it being a good day since he would have been spending it with Ramsay.

2. Jon falling for Ramsay's ploy with Rickon.  He was warned by Sansa.  He knew they had to show restraint.  He charged ahead anyway.

Explanation: Easy enough -- emotion.  Even with Sansa's warning, he wasn't able to give up on Rickon.  I can imagine Jon holding steady, but his falling to pieces makes narrative sense as well.

3. Sansa didn't inform Jon that an army was inbound from the Vale.  That detail could have saved many lives.  I can think of multiple explanations for this.  From least likely to most likely IMO:

Explanation 1: She's so lacking in military theory and even common sense that she didn't think that the information worth sharing.  I don't think this is the answer though, because it really only needs common sense.

Explanation 2: Sansa didn't know whether Littlefinger would actually come, or if they would make it on time.  Even in this case Sansa should have mentioned the possibility, but it's at least a little more reasn why she would keep it to herself.

Explanation 3: It was part of a condition from Littlefinger that his forces would not commit until victory could be assured, with minimal losses for his people.  I rate it as less likely because I don't think Sansa would be willing to give in to his demands at this point.

Explanation 4: Sansa herself decided (or was convinced by Littlefinger) that it would be better to sacrifice Jon's wildlings in order to guarantee victory.  Without conceding so much ground, Ramsay would not have let down his guard and may have been able to mount a counteroffensive, defense, or at least a stronger retreat.  She didn't tell Jon because she knew Jon would not be willing to sacrifice lives this way.  Maybe she hoped or expected that Jon would have held out better (i.e. that Jon would not fall for Ramsay's provocation), so that something similar could have been achieved without as many losses as actually happened.

Explanation 5: Sansa has decided that Littlefinger is more trustworthy than Jon, or at least more useful in terms of advancing her own interests.  Jon's army isn't really her army, but Littlefinger's army might be.  She decided (or was convinced) that it would be better to sacrifice the wildlings, not merely to guarantee victory but to intentionally let Jon's forces be weakened while conserving "her" own strength.  This explanation seems most likely to me because Sansa's facial expressions and body language made her actions seem deliberate to me, and also because it would make a lot of sense with her character development.

Anyway, I'll be interested to see if Jon calls out Sansa for witholding the intel, and whether Sansa will have an explanation ready.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 02:53:43 am by eHalcyon »
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pingpongsam

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #616 on: June 20, 2016, 07:20:36 am »
0

Arya had just spent some amount of time blind and learning to fight the waif in that state. Note the waif was able to see that entire time. Arya snuffing the candle absolutely gave her an advantage. I'm surprised no one else picked this up?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #617 on: June 20, 2016, 08:59:56 am »
0

eHalcyon, I see your nitpicks and mostly agree. I mostly agree with your explanations of the first two.

1. I actually attribute Rickon's flight as the result of blind panic. In a sense, I think they may be playing up Ramsay's expertise in manipulating people. He very specifically said that the sooner Rickon runs, the sooner he can reach Jon. He planted the idea in Rickon's head that a straight line was the route. Rickon—after undoubtedly enduring several days of torture—simply saw an escape and went with the most basic tactic.
But yes, even though I could rationalize that scene, I still found myself exclaiming, zig-zag you dumb shit!
2. Jon has always been one to be ruled by emotion. In some cases, this served him well. He was able to connect with the Wildlings and bring them to his side. And even in stoic moments, like the execution of his murderers, you could see the emotion bubbling inside him. This is an instance where emotion got the better of him. It's interesting because Sansa—who has had a far greater emotional gouging from Ramsay than Jon could ever know—was the more calculated and stone-faced one. One could say that she's becoming inured to the negative emotions and can therefore ride them out better than he can.
3. Lots of interesting explanations here. I am not certain I can really formulate an explanation for that. I thought that it was daft for that to happen and that it was a cheap way to introduce tension. I'd be interested in hearing the official explanation.

Unfortunately, I don't know if that explanation will be coming, because we are now in the realm of TV writers. That's not to say that TV writers are inferior, but they write differently. I haven't read the books, so forgive me if my observation is off, but it struck me in the earlier seasons that a lot of things were covered nicely because they were following the books (mostly). The show's writers could read ahead and plan for it. Now they are in territory where the only thing they are responsible for what happens next. As such, I don't know if they'll incorporate that much introduction into some of the plots. I hope so; the show drew me in, and I'd like to stay there. I'd like to think that these writers have a much greater understanding of planning than the writers of Lost or 24, who were mostly just winging it.

As befits tradition, the ninth episode had some large game-changers. I have to say that the opening scene of this episode was very satisfying. I think it's obviously going to be the focus of the next season.

So that just leaves some loose ends for next week: Where's Bran going? Will Margary's gambit work? Will Davos confront the Red Woman? Will we finally figure out the Hound's story?
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jonts26

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #618 on: June 20, 2016, 10:18:49 am »
0

I only have one issue with the episode. Not once did anyone taunt Ramsay by calling him a bastard.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #619 on: June 20, 2016, 10:24:37 am »
0

I only have one issue with the episode. Not once did anyone taunt Ramsay by calling him a bastard.

Yeah, the hypocrisy was so strong with him driving point the fact that Jon is a bastard while smugly sitting there with his own bastard mantle.

I guess it's to continue the theme of trying to goad Jon into making a mistake, though Ramsay was insecure enough that it would have fairly easy to goad him into a mistake.

Of course, this is a fantasy world where nobles do this honorably (mostly), so I guess Jon was trying to be the better person. How'd that work out for you?
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #620 on: June 20, 2016, 10:27:15 am »
0

I suppose one thing I wished they showed was Ramsay's infantry being hesitant to go into battle since they just watched Ramsay order the indiscriminate volleys of arrows on both his men and Jon's. But then again, nobody wants to defy him.

So good job in reminding us what an asshole he is.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #621 on: June 20, 2016, 01:10:47 pm »
0

Arya had just spent some amount of time blind and learning to fight the waif in that state. Note the waif was able to see that entire time. Arya snuffing the candle absolutely gave her an advantage. I'm surprised no one else picked this up?

I think everyone picked this up, but the problem is that the waif surely went through the same training, and she should be far more practiced at it. Fighting in the dark should give the waif an advantage if she's really a skilled assassin. Her loss suggests incompetency of the faceless men more than it does skill on Arya's part, and that's a failing of the show.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #622 on: June 20, 2016, 02:07:35 pm »
0

I think everyone picked this up, but the problem is that the waif surely went through the same training, and she should be far more practiced at it. Fighting in the dark should give the waif an advantage if she's really a skilled assassin. Her loss suggests incompetency of the faceless men more than it does skill on Arya's part, and that's a failing of the show.

I don't know that we have enough to assume that their training methods are consistent from person to person. If my memory serves me correctly, Arya's blindness was a result of her letting her self get in the way of the job. She was not no one, so she had to learn a lesson. That lesson involved blinding her and being tormented by the Waif.

Who's to say the Waif's punishment was the same? She may have lost her hearing or the use of her legs. For that matter, maybe the Waif didn't even need punishing and, therefore, Arya had more grueling training than she did.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #623 on: June 20, 2016, 02:28:45 pm »
+1

I think everyone picked this up, but the problem is that the waif surely went through the same training, and she should be far more practiced at it. Fighting in the dark should give the waif an advantage if she's really a skilled assassin. Her loss suggests incompetency of the faceless men more than it does skill on Arya's part, and that's a failing of the show.

I don't know that we have enough to assume that their training methods are consistent from person to person. If my memory serves me correctly, Arya's blindness was a result of her letting her self get in the way of the job. She was not no one, so she had to learn a lesson. That lesson involved blinding her and being tormented by the Waif.

Who's to say the Waif's punishment was the same? She may have lost her hearing or the use of her legs. For that matter, maybe the Waif didn't even need punishing and, therefore, Arya had more grueling training than she did.

You don't think the mystical assassins would train to fight in the dark, relying on their other senses?

FWIW, I'm also partially influenced by the context from the books. The books confirm that it's typical training; it was only a punishment in that Arya was blinded earlier than most acolytes would be.  I can't remember if anything like that was mentioned on the show, but it's kind of a trope for skilled fighters to be able to rely on other senses.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 02:30:39 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #624 on: June 20, 2016, 10:43:10 pm »
0

I think everyone picked this up, but the problem is that the waif surely went through the same training, and she should be far more practiced at it. Fighting in the dark should give the waif an advantage if she's really a skilled assassin. Her loss suggests incompetency of the faceless men more than it does skill on Arya's part, and that's a failing of the show.

I don't know that we have enough to assume that their training methods are consistent from person to person. If my memory serves me correctly, Arya's blindness was a result of her letting her self get in the way of the job. She was not no one, so she had to learn a lesson. That lesson involved blinding her and being tormented by the Waif.

Who's to say the Waif's punishment was the same? She may have lost her hearing or the use of her legs. For that matter, maybe the Waif didn't even need punishing and, therefore, Arya had more grueling training than she did.

You don't think the mystical assassins would train to fight in the dark, relying on their other senses?

FWIW, I'm also partially influenced by the context from the books. The books confirm that it's typical training; it was only a punishment in that Arya was blinded earlier than most acolytes would be.  I can't remember if anything like that was mentioned on the show, but it's kind of a trope for skilled fighters to be able to rely on other senses.

Yeah, no, the TV series is definitely intending to portray Arya as having an advantage over the waif due to having been blinded.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #625 on: June 20, 2016, 10:49:47 pm »
+1

Yeah, no, the TV series is definitely intending to portray Arya as having an advantage over the waif due to having been blinded.

Agreed, but I consider this a mistake that makes the Faceless Men look incompetent, which is very disappointing to me.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #626 on: June 20, 2016, 10:59:15 pm »
0

FWIW, I'm also partially influenced by the context from the books. The books confirm that it's typical training; it was only a punishment in that Arya was blinded earlier than most acolytes would be.  I can't remember if anything like that was mentioned on the show, but it's kind of a trope for skilled fighters to be able to rely on other senses.

It's been a while, but if I recall, the Waif was not even in training to be a faceless man in the books. Wasn't she just like an acolyte of the temple?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #627 on: June 20, 2016, 11:06:48 pm »
0

FWIW, I'm also partially influenced by the context from the books. The books confirm that it's typical training; it was only a punishment in that Arya was blinded earlier than most acolytes would be.  I can't remember if anything like that was mentioned on the show, but it's kind of a trope for skilled fighters to be able to rely on other senses.

It's been a while, but if I recall, the Waif was not even in training to be a faceless man in the books. Wasn't she just like an acolyte of the temple?

Correct.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #628 on: June 20, 2016, 11:21:49 pm »
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2. Jon falling for Ramsay's ploy with Rickon.  He was warned by Sansa.  He knew they had to show restraint.  He charged ahead anyway.

I think the reason for that is that John is an idiot. He's brave, just, good-hearted, a skilled fighter, but not smart or a good commander, at all.

Arya had just spent some amount of time blind and learning to fight the waif in that state. Note the waif was able to see that entire time. Arya snuffing the candle absolutely gave her an advantage. I'm surprised no one else picked this up?

I frankly think everyone picked that up

From someone who has not read the books, the faceless men are ... odd. Because they only show the waif and Jaqen. So for all I know, it could just be those two.

I think it'd have been more powerful if the waif killed arya, to be completely honest. But I'm not mad at what happened. I would have been mad if she'd beaten her in an even fight.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 11:25:35 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #629 on: June 20, 2016, 11:24:36 pm »
+1

I think the primary point of this episode is to show that war is a horrifying, bloody, chaotic, and frankly random mess. The archers, specifically; whether or not you're hit is just based on luck. I also know that this is what Martin wants to show, and I think it does work.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #630 on: June 20, 2016, 11:50:42 pm »
0

FWIW, I'm also partially influenced by the context from the books. The books confirm that it's typical training; it was only a punishment in that Arya was blinded earlier than most acolytes would be.  I can't remember if anything like that was mentioned on the show, but it's kind of a trope for skilled fighters to be able to rely on other senses.

It's been a while, but if I recall, the Waif was not even in training to be a faceless man in the books. Wasn't she just like an acolyte of the temple?

Correct.

Hmm, does that apply to the show itself?  Maybe I missed something, but it seemed to me that the waif (of the show) was an assassin too, or else why would she be allowed to go after Arya?  Or has the show implied that the waif is in training like Arya?  That's not the sense I've gotten.

My gripe is just that the show's representation of the Faceless Men isn't living up to the mystique that was developed in the books.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #631 on: June 21, 2016, 08:01:17 am »
0

My gripe is just that the show's representation of the Faceless Men isn't living up to the mystique that was developed in the books.

And that’s fair. Having not read the books, I am detached from that mystique and can only go off of what the show presents (and what I pick up from you guys here).

While I’m sure the books did a better job of presenting them, the temple in the show was kind of verging into Mary Sue territory. Or at least made them sufficiently badass that one could wonder if they ever fail at anything. So I can see how this particular plot is a way to show that while this group was larger than Arya, Arya was able to turn the tables. Conflict, of course, drives the story, so having Arya defy the Many-Faced God was interesting. If the temple lived up to its mystique, then by all rights, Arya would have been crushed. So something had to be done to level the playing field.

Does that result in a sloppy resolution? Yeah, it does. While I liked how it ended, it was awfully abrupt, and the way they played it up, a healthy Waif should have had no trouble with a wounded Arya, even in the dark (assuming the Waif wasn’t trained in blind-fighting).

In the end, while it was sloppy, I shrugged it off. It was telling a story and I didn’t feel it sacrificed too terribly much to tell it. There are worse offenders.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #632 on: June 21, 2016, 11:12:04 am »
0

...having Arya defy the Many-Faced God...

The Many-Faced God required a life, as I understood it, it got one in the waif.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #633 on: June 21, 2016, 11:52:24 am »
0

...having Arya defy the Many-Faced God...

The Many-Faced God required a life, as I understood it, it got one in the waif.

Technically, he got the life when Lady Crane was assassinated. Killing Arya was just punitive at that point.

And I guess when Arya bested the Waif, the Many-Faced God thought that was good enough since she wasn’t killed on the spot.

But yeah, it’s an interesting tale of Arya seeking vengeance through the Many-Faced God and failing twice: Once when her rage consumed her enough to ignore her target and again when her compassion won out. This could lead to a very interesting Arya when she returns to Westeros (where I presume she will run afoul of the Hound again).
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #634 on: June 21, 2016, 11:53:49 am »
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I don't think the many-faced-god wants anything. I don't think he exists.

I think it's just about what Jaqen thinks, and if he believes that the price is paid with the waif's death, then it is effectively paid.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #635 on: June 21, 2016, 04:08:23 pm »
0

I don't think the many-faced-god wants anything. I don't think he exists.

I think it's just about what Jaqen thinks, and if he believes that the price is paid with the waif's death, then it is effectively paid.

How does one explain the surviving of drinking the poisoned water which apparently only happens when one is no one?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #636 on: June 21, 2016, 04:21:52 pm »
0

I don't think the many-faced-god wants anything. I don't think he exists.

I think it's just about what Jaqen thinks, and if he believes that the price is paid with the waif's death, then it is effectively paid.

How does one explain the surviving of drinking the poisoned water which apparently only happens when one is no one?

Magic. Which clearly does exist in the word of GoT, but that does not mean gods exist.

If there is a god there, I would bet on the Lord of Light, because bringing someone back from the dead seems like the most impressive thing that's happened so far.

Of course that's all just interpretation, you can also believe that there's a god behind every instance of magic. Then there are a number of gods, though.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #637 on: June 21, 2016, 06:53:26 pm »
+1

I was quite irritated (probably emberassed fits better) that Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Vale army. She definitely knew about them and denied him the information before the negotiation with Ramsay (they would have had a completely different position then and might have been able to save Rickon) and before the battle. They all might have been just killed off before the vale armies arrival.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #638 on: June 22, 2016, 08:07:32 am »
0

Magic. Which clearly does exist in the word of GoT, but that does not mean gods exist.

If there is a god there, I would bet on the Lord of Light, because bringing someone back from the dead seems like the most impressive thing that's happened so far.

Magic is ill-defined in this show. That’s convenient because it’s rare and unreliable enough that they can’t just hand-wave most problems away, but it’s unpredictable enough to pose a sudden threat.

I’m sure the books go into the religions better, but what were all in the show? The old gods, the Sept, the Lord of Light, and the Many-Faced God?

The old gods likely have power in that indirect druidic way. In fact, these seem to be overlooked by the populace because they do nothing. But it seems to me that Bran is being influenced by them. But the connection is so loose that I wouldn’t put money on it.

The Sept seems to be the most impotent one. I recall only seeing them be political with no hocus-pocus at all (correct me if I missed something). They remind me of the 700 Club: All talk and nothing divine.

The Lord of Light summoned a demon and brought someone back to life. One could argue if it was the Lord of Light or the red woman that has the power. But if she had the power, then her advice to Stannis to sacrifice his daughter would have paid off. So it possible that the Lord of Light may be real, but his will is hard to interpret.

While I’m cool with the idea of the Many-Faced God being real, I could see Jaqen being a bad-ass mystic who can convey the ability to survive poison water or inflict blindness, not to mention the ability to use a dead person’s face to craft a perfect disguise. I’m inclined to go the god route, especially since if one god exists (Lord of Light), then there could be others, and why not the Many-Faced God?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #639 on: June 22, 2016, 11:20:18 am »
0

Magic. Which clearly does exist in the word of GoT, but that does not mean gods exist.

If there is a god there, I would bet on the Lord of Light, because bringing someone back from the dead seems like the most impressive thing that's happened so far.

Magic is ill-defined in this show. That’s convenient because it’s rare and unreliable enough that they can’t just hand-wave most problems away, but it’s unpredictable enough to pose a sudden threat.

I’m sure the books go into the religions better, but what were all in the show? The old gods, the Sept, the Lord of Light, and the Many-Faced God?

The old gods likely have power in that indirect druidic way. In fact, these seem to be overlooked by the populace because they do nothing. But it seems to me that Bran is being influenced by them. But the connection is so loose that I wouldn’t put money on it.

The Sept seems to be the most impotent one. I recall only seeing them be political with no hocus-pocus at all (correct me if I missed something). They remind me of the 700 Club: All talk and nothing divine.

The Lord of Light summoned a demon and brought someone back to life. One could argue if it was the Lord of Light or the red woman that has the power. But if she had the power, then her advice to Stannis to sacrifice his daughter would have paid off. So it possible that the Lord of Light may be real, but his will is hard to interpret.

While I’m cool with the idea of the Many-Faced God being real, I could see Jaqen being a bad-ass mystic who can convey the ability to survive poison water or inflict blindness, not to mention the ability to use a dead person’s face to craft a perfect disguise. I’m inclined to go the god route, especially since if one god exists (Lord of Light), then there could be others, and why not the Many-Faced God?

It should be noted that the Many-Faced God is ostensibly the one god that is represented by the other gods of the realm. Followers of MFG recognize one god, Death, who manifests himself in all the other belief structures.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #640 on: June 22, 2016, 11:24:47 am »
0

The old gods presumably had a hand in creating the Night King.

Worth noting that the many-faced god is Death, and the Faceless Men hold that every religion has an aspect of it. That's why their god is called "many-faced".

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #641 on: June 26, 2016, 11:03:23 pm »
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Argh, you got me!

I honestly thought they were done with Arya's story for the season and were going to continue it next season. Well played.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #642 on: June 26, 2016, 11:30:43 pm »
0

Spoiler:  Someone else died.
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werothegreat

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #643 on: June 26, 2016, 11:52:58 pm »
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Argh, you got me!

I honestly thought they were done with Arya's story for the season and were going to continue it next season. Well played.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #644 on: June 27, 2016, 02:44:02 am »
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The reason for Sansa's silence was simply because she didn't trust Jon?  OK, I guess.  Does she trust him now?  Maybe his willingness to die in battle or his insistence to yield the title to her was convincing?  Maybe she still doesn't trust him, but won't say so?  The only thing that I find a bit off is that Jon doesn't seem even the slightest bit angry about all the people that were lost because she didn't share that crucial information.  I mean, he pretty much thanked her!

Cersei's plot.  I think that was telegraphed pretty hard in past episodes so it didn't feel so surprising, even though I didn't predict it at all.  The most surprising thing is the sheer number of major players that were removed.  I guess it's possible that some escaped, but that seems very slim considering how deadly wildfire is supposed to be.  Also, I prefer Pycelle's fate from the books.  Oh well.

Overall, not a fan of the direction that was taken with the Sparrows and the Faith Militant.  I hope the book is different.  In the end, it doesn't feel like the plot amounted to anything.  They did a few things and then got blown up in the end, so it was just spinning wheels.  I guess it did have a major impact on Cersei, so there's that.

Arya.  Well that escalated quickly.  Timeline is a bit fuzzy for her getting all the way to the Twins so quickly... and are we supposed to consider her as skilled as a full-fledged Faceless Man now?  Should we think of her as a prodigy?

Benjen confimed dead.  I don't think it was explicitly confirmed before, though most expected it since he seems to be Coldhands in the show, whether or not that is true in the books.  OK then.

R+L=J essentially confirmed.  They still left the nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship ambiguous though.

Little Lady Mormont continues to be the best.  I have to say though, Lord Manderly in the show is way less interesting than the show version.  His appearance is more generic and he hasn't done anything interesting at all.  In fact, a fan theory about a particularly ruthless action of his was basically confirmed in this episode, except now it's no longer his deed, it's Arya's instead.  Granted, since the context and details are different, I guess it's not a confirmation at all.  Maybe the show writers just decided to take the popular theory and put it into the show as a bit of fan service. 

Not sure how to feel about Sansa being passed over for Jon.  I guess she's for it though?  Her motivations are so unclear at this point.  The look between her and Littlefinger at the end there, I guess she's intentionally yielding to Jon just so Littlefinger doesn't get his way?

Lady Stoneheart did not appear. :(
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #645 on: June 27, 2016, 04:08:47 am »
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Does anyone else think Arya is actually dead and the Waif has taken on her identity? That would explain the face changing thing.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #646 on: June 27, 2016, 06:22:26 am »
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Does anyone else think Arya is actually dead and the Waif has taken on her identity? That would explain the face changing thing.
Don't think so. The scene with jaquen wouldn't have made any sense then (did few enough)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #647 on: June 27, 2016, 06:31:23 am »
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Jon part was irritating, Samwell as well (did he just take the carriage with that stolen sword).
Rest was actually quite good, however still not totally convinced of R+L=J (still hope for R+L=D), but i have to admit that the evidence is really strong.
Varys using a teleporter is an interesting clue as well ;-)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #648 on: June 27, 2016, 07:57:14 am »
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Yeah, I’m not satisfied with the discussion between Jon and Sansa either. Anybody with an inkling of military theory can see why her maneuver was dangerous. At the very least, the wildlings should be pissed that they were basically used as fodder.

I was looking forward to Cersei’s vengeance, though I did not expect this. That’s a game-changer. It’s interesting to note that nobody knows for certain that Tommen took his own life. For all anybody knows, he died under mysterious circumstances and oh, hey, look, his mother is on the throne now. How convenient. It’ll be interesting if this comes up next season.

I suppose if I was disappointed with one thing in that storyline, it’s that it looked like they were setting up this great big con for Margary to pull on the High Sparrow. She was being super compliant, but she was clearly not brainwashed as she was able to warn her grandmother to leave. I had thought her warning was actually a message of, “Go on, I have things taken care of here.” But alas, I guess she had no big great con. Her plan was to get Loras to submit so that they both can live? I expected better from her.

I did consider the idea that the Waif took Arya’s place, but that basically means ending her story in favor of the story of someone that we know nothing about. While her story could unfurl and be interesting, that’ll be hard to do if she’s instead pretending to be someone else. Also, why would the Waif bother infiltrating the Freys and massacring that family?

I’m seeing no tension in the Sam storyline. It felt like it was just thrown in there to remind us that the story still exists. Yeah, he stole the sword, but so far that means nothing. I’m sure it’ll bite him next season.

I’m hoping that season 7 is the end. While I’m enjoying the show, I can see it reaching the point of tedium. Very few of the original characters are left, and many of the characters they introduced have been killed in the past couple seasons. They add some new characters here and there, which does help, but eventually I feel the story should come to an end. I hear that season 7 will be shorter than the other seasons. I hope this means that they’re going to wrap it up while they’re still surfing on a relatively high note (I suck at metaphors).

But despite some of its flaws, I found this episode to be enjoyable. Traditionally, the ninth episode was the big turn of the season, but this episode didn’t hold back .
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #649 on: June 27, 2016, 08:33:58 am »
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My impression of that look Sansa and Littlefinger gave is that Sansa realized this would make Littlefinger and Jon enemies.  She seemed okay, then locked gaze with Littlefinger, then got worried.  I don't think particularly interested in gaining power even if she's become somewhat of a game player, but she knows that Littlefinger is very dangerous, and Jon is at risk if he's in Littlefinger's way.

I was caught offguard at first that Varys was back with Danerys, but it took some time to assemble all the ships and get ready to transport an army across the ocean.  It was the last scene, so we have to assume that enough time has passed.  He presumably came back directly after his meeting in Dorne.  The show has always had these kind of time jumps; and it's hard to say if it's consistent or not.  (The books have similar problems.) 

As for Tommen suicide, the King's room always has guards.  They know no one came in or out.  No sign of struggle.  There's no reason to suspect anyone.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #650 on: June 27, 2016, 09:28:21 am »
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As for Tommen suicide, the King's room always has guards.  They know no one came in or out.  No sign of struggle.  There's no reason to suspect anyone.

Yet the Mountain was able to approach the King’s chambers and confine him to them. There’s a large gap there that needs explaining. What did happen to those guards? Granted, they likely have permission to let Cersei by, but if Tommen wanted out, it wouldn’t take much to summon the guards.

And even if the guards did let the Mountain through, that just means there are plenty of witnesses that the Mountain showed up at some point, Cersei showed up at some point, and after she left, his body fell from the window.


It would be pretty easy to CSI it to determine the order of events, but it’s still enough to start nasty rumors about an unpopular person.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #651 on: June 27, 2016, 09:32:05 am »
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As for Tommen suicide, the King's room always has guards.  They know no one came in or out.  No sign of struggle.  There's no reason to suspect anyone.

Yet the Mountain was able to approach the King’s chambers and confine him to them. There’s a large gap there that needs explaining. What did happen to those guards? Granted, they likely have permission to let Cersei by, but if Tommen wanted out, it wouldn’t take much to summon the guards.

And even if the guards did let the Mountain through, that just means there are plenty of witnesses that the Mountain showed up at some point, Cersei showed up at some point, and after she left, his body fell from the window.


It would be pretty easy to CSI it to determine the order of events, but it’s still enough to start nasty rumors about an unpopular person.

I thought there was a good amount of time between when Tommen observed the explosion (after which The Mountain left) and him jumping out the window.  The scene with Cersei, The Mountain, and Mistress Shame was before Tommen's jump.  Enough time for guards/steward/whatever to observe Tommen is alive and alone.  And there are always Kingsguard outside the King's chamber. 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #652 on: June 27, 2016, 09:51:09 am »
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I just read on a board, and realized, There were Dorne ships in the finale scene with Danerys.  I do remember seeing the sun sigil, but at the time I had associated it with somewhere in the Mereen area without thinking about it.  Apparently, there were Tyrell ships as well.  So, maybe this scene is even farther ahead than I originally thought.  Dany had already met up with Varys along with the fleets of Dorne and Highgarden and is sailing north to King's Landing.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #653 on: June 27, 2016, 12:09:48 pm »
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As for Tommen suicide, the King's room always has guards.  They know no one came in or out.  No sign of struggle.  There's no reason to suspect anyone.

Yet the Mountain was able to approach the King’s chambers and confine him to them. There’s a large gap there that needs explaining. What did happen to those guards? Granted, they likely have permission to let Cersei by, but if Tommen wanted out, it wouldn’t take much to summon the guards.

And even if the guards did let the Mountain through, that just means there are plenty of witnesses that the Mountain showed up at some point, Cersei showed up at some point, and after she left, his body fell from the window.


It would be pretty easy to CSI it to determine the order of events, but it’s still enough to start nasty rumors about an unpopular person.

I thought there was a good amount of time between when Tommen observed the explosion (after which The Mountain left) and him jumping out the window.  The scene with Cersei, The Mountain, and Mistress Shame was before Tommen's jump.  Enough time for guards/steward/whatever to observe Tommen is alive and alone.  And there are always Kingsguard outside the King's chamber. 

There's supposed to always be Kingsguard, but that doesn't mean they are actually always there. We didn't see them guarding Tommen in the episode.

Even if they were there as witnesses, rumours could still start. They belong to Cersei now, so maybe they're lying to cover for her. That's plausible enough for the rumour mill.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #654 on: June 27, 2016, 12:12:57 pm »
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Any thoughts about the sandsnakes taking control in Dorne? (Aren't there supposed to be some other houses???)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #655 on: June 27, 2016, 12:14:01 pm »
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As for Tommen suicide, the King's room always has guards.  They know no one came in or out.  No sign of struggle.  There's no reason to suspect anyone.

Yet the Mountain was able to approach the King’s chambers and confine him to them. There’s a large gap there that needs explaining. What did happen to those guards? Granted, they likely have permission to let Cersei by, but if Tommen wanted out, it wouldn’t take much to summon the guards.

And even if the guards did let the Mountain through, that just means there are plenty of witnesses that the Mountain showed up at some point, Cersei showed up at some point, and after she left, his body fell from the window.


It would be pretty easy to CSI it to determine the order of events, but it’s still enough to start nasty rumors about an unpopular person.

I thought there was a good amount of time between when Tommen observed the explosion (after which The Mountain left) and him jumping out the window.  The scene with Cersei, The Mountain, and Mistress Shame was before Tommen's jump.  Enough time for guards/steward/whatever to observe Tommen is alive and alone.  And there are always Kingsguard outside the King's chamber. 

There's supposed to always be Kingsguard, but that doesn't mean they are actually always there. We didn't see them guarding Tommen in the episode.

Even if they were there as witnesses, rumours could still start. They belong to Cersei now, so maybe they're lying to cover for her. That's plausible enough for the rumour mill.

We didn't see a view looking at Tommen's door from the outside.  Kingsguard are not always in the king's chambers, but they are always standing guard (well, at least one).  I think this is brought up in the book explicitly, maybe it's just kind of implied by the show. (E.g., There was a scene in Season 1 where Jamie is outside Robert's door while he's whoring.)
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #656 on: June 27, 2016, 12:14:20 pm »
+1

Any thoughts about the sandsnakes taking control in Dorne? (Aren't there supposed to be some other houses???)

I think the show just doesn't want to go into Dorne deeply. 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #657 on: June 27, 2016, 12:19:47 pm »
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We didn't see a view looking at Tommen's door from the outside.  Kingsguard are not always in the king's chambers, but they are always standing guard (well, at least one).  I think this is brought up in the book explicitly, maybe it's just kind of implied by the show. (E.g., There was a scene in Season 1 where Jamie is outside Robert's door while he's whoring.)

Again, yes, they are supposed to be there, but that doesn't mean that they are. They could have left, either willingly or under duress (i.e. the Mountain). We just don't know, precisely because we don't have a view of his door, and neither do the people of King's Landing.

Kingsguard are also sworn to always protect the king, but Jaime still killed Aerys.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #658 on: June 27, 2016, 12:38:43 pm »
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We didn't see a view looking at Tommen's door from the outside.  Kingsguard are not always in the king's chambers, but they are always standing guard (well, at least one).  I think this is brought up in the book explicitly, maybe it's just kind of implied by the show. (E.g., There was a scene in Season 1 where Jamie is outside Robert's door while he's whoring.)

Again, yes, they are supposed to be there, but that doesn't mean that they are. They could have left, either willingly or under duress (i.e. the Mountain). We just don't know, precisely because we don't have a view of his door, and neither do the people of King's Landing.

Kingsguard are also sworn to always protect the king, but Jaime still killed Aerys.

But there is no reason to think they weren't, especially since they weren't shown absent, and we as viewers know what actually happened.  At any rate, sure the rumors could exist (and probably do regardless), but I think it's plausible that they don't amount to much.  It's certainly likely that there are multiple people that can verify that the king was alone during the time in question.

The more interesting question, I think, is to what extent did Cersei predict what would happen?  Particularly, her outfit and when she decided to wear it.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #659 on: June 27, 2016, 12:57:21 pm »
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The fact that the Mountain entered Tommen's chamber without Cersei is cause for suspicion. Witness verification isn't great when all the witnesses now work for the suspect, who is terrifying with her giant zombie guard.  It's plausible that the rumours won't amount to much, but it's also plausible that they'll matter a lot. The idea that Cersei intentionally committed reticule and fillicide to take the Iron Throne could be used to rally houses against her. Jaime may wonder, and that could eat away at him.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #660 on: June 27, 2016, 01:05:17 pm »
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The fact that the Mountain entered Tommen's chamber without Cersei is cause for suspicion. Witness verification isn't great when all the witnesses now work for the suspect, who is terrifying with her giant zombie guard.  It's plausible that the rumours won't amount to much, but it's also plausible that they'll matter a lot. The idea that Cersei intentionally committed reticule and fillicide to take the Iron Throne could be used to rally houses against her. Jaime may wonder, and that could eat away at him.

I think the Jamie and Cersei fracture has already started, even without external drama regarding Cersei's involvement.  Two episodes Jamie had this huge speech how Cersei was such a fiercely protective mother.  Then this happens, and even if Jamie doesn't believe Cersei intended this, it's still a direct result of her actions, and she should have protected him.  Jamie's image of her is beginning to shatter, I think, which was the point of the last scene with them.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #661 on: June 27, 2016, 02:09:19 pm »
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At any rate, sure the rumors could exist (and probably do regardless), but I think it's plausible that they don't amount to much.  It's certainly likely that there are multiple people that can verify that the king was alone during the time in question.

The more interesting question, I think, is to what extent did Cersei predict what would happen?  Particularly, her outfit and when she decided to wear it.

That’s true. Nothing may arise from the rumors. Some may talk, but I’m sure people have heard of people who mocked Cersei during her walk of shame ending up dead. That’s enough to quell those rumors.

I’m not sure that she did predict it. She was still a fierce mother and didn’t want her children harmed. I don’t think she would have wanted this to happen. But it has, and she endures it. Besides, she’s always wanted to be in power, and the sudden filling of the vacancy may override her grief for her son. I read her lack of emotion as becoming numb to so much tragedy. And there’s probably a part of her that said, “Well, he brought all this on himself, so why did he run from his mess?”

I think we’re seeing a transformation in Cersei, and it’s one that Jamie doesn’t like. She’s always been pulling the strings with Robert and Joffrey (though that was difficult). Having Tommen act against her shows her that she needs to be in charge.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #662 on: June 27, 2016, 02:12:39 pm »
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At any rate, sure the rumors could exist (and probably do regardless), but I think it's plausible that they don't amount to much.  It's certainly likely that there are multiple people that can verify that the king was alone during the time in question.

The more interesting question, I think, is to what extent did Cersei predict what would happen?  Particularly, her outfit and when she decided to wear it.

That’s true. Nothing may arise from the rumors. Some may talk, but I’m sure people have heard of people who mocked Cersei during her walk of shame ending up dead. That’s enough to quell those rumors.

I’m not sure that she did predict it. She was still a fierce mother and didn’t want her children harmed. I don’t think she would have wanted this to happen. But it has, and she endures it. Besides, she’s always wanted to be in power, and the sudden filling of the vacancy may override her grief for her son. I read her lack of emotion as becoming numb to so much tragedy. And there’s probably a part of her that said, “Well, he brought all this on himself, so why did he run from his mess?”

I think we’re seeing a transformation in Cersei, and it’s one that Jamie doesn’t like. She’s always been pulling the strings with Robert and Joffrey (though that was difficult). Having Tommen act against her shows her that she needs to be in charge.

Well, it's that she started putting on a black dress (generally, for mourning) at the beginning.  I suppose it could have been because she new Margaery would die.
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Kuildeous

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #663 on: June 27, 2016, 03:21:02 pm »
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Well, it's that she started putting on a black dress (generally, for mourning) at the beginning.  I suppose it could have been because she new Margaery would die.

There is that. I’m absolutely certain she was banking on that, since she hated her anyway.

As for the timing of the dress, it may be that nebulous passage of time that keeps happening throughout the show.

And I wouldn’t be surprised if wealthy nobles had a slew of funeral garb. Seems to be in fashion in this world. But now I'm just justifying things.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #664 on: June 27, 2016, 10:57:27 pm »
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I wanted Cersei to die so badly for over five seasons now, and she just won't do me the favor.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #665 on: June 27, 2016, 11:04:45 pm »
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My interpretation of the Cersei-Tommen interaction is that Cersei has basically given up on him even before he died. Ever since she saw her daughter die, she's accepted that she beliefs the witch then, and has said goodbye to her son there. There was this one scene where they were together, but she refused to directly look at him.

So what happened now was not intentional, but it was reckless, and that makes the death her fault. She has no proof that prophecies are inevitable, they probably are not, and he died because she wasn't doing her best to save him anymore.

In any case, she's still fucked now. Queen or not, she's about to have an army against her that is way larger and has dragons. She has no chance.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #666 on: June 28, 2016, 07:22:19 am »
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Where is Ghost? Didn't see him for the last 2 series.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #667 on: June 28, 2016, 07:50:30 am »
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In any case, she's still fucked now. Queen or not, she's about to have an army against her that is way larger and has dragons. She has no chance.


Not to mention that the people of King’s Landing have got to be demoralized by recent events.

On paper, she doesn’t stand a chance, which would make for a very boring assault as the Mother of Dragons wins. So there will be some story element that’ll even the playing field. I’m sure at least one dragon will die somehow. And now that the Red Woman has been banished from the north, will she decide that the Lord of the Light favors Cersei? Maybe her anger will fuel some powerful magics. We already know she can summon demons to assassinate people. And well, who’s to say that Cersei won’t follow the Mad King and hold the city hostage with miles of green fire underneath?

Oh, and people are clamoring for Jon to be king. Unless a marriage is in the works (guess it’s possible), these two armies may clash before King’s Landing is dealt with.

Cersei’s death is a long time coming. I just hope that with this build-up that it’ll be a very satisfying end. They did pretty well with Ramsay. Also the brother in season 1, though I think making him drink the molten gold would have been better.
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Calamitas

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #668 on: June 28, 2016, 08:06:18 am »
0

There is no chance, Cersei is going to reihn for longer than a minute...

a) She has no kind of legitimizaton (succession in feudalism)

b) She has literally no allies:
 - Declared war on Dorne/Reach
 - North/Vale declared for Jon
 - Riverlands are fucked up
 - Stormlands should feel usurped (see. a)
 - Westerlands should feel angry because of Kevan!
 - Smallfolk/people from KL should feel angry because of buring down the sept while burning hundreds alive!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #669 on: June 28, 2016, 09:20:28 am »
0

Oh, and people are clamoring for Jon to be king. Unless a marriage is in the works (guess it’s possible), these two armies may clash before King’s Landing is dealt with.

You think John will fight Danny? I really doubt that. Several reasons

- Danny is probably fine with leaving the north to him, so he can stay, well, king in the north
- John has as little chance as Cersei does. She has everything now. I know he's not smart, but he's not that dumb
- We now know they're related. She's his aunt.
- The walkers are going to show up. That should have a uniting effect.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #670 on: June 28, 2016, 10:14:07 am »
0

It's Jon. And there's no way dany will be ok with only 6 kingdoms. Also no one but bran knows theyre related so far. I doubt it'll end up with a major conflict. Jon would definitely renounce his kingship and swear fealty if it means getting dany to focus on the white walkers. But there will be some tensions I'm sure.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #671 on: June 28, 2016, 10:30:03 am »
0

They’re going to have to add some tension. Things are starting to wrap up too nicely now. This is a change from the fractured kingdoms early on. We have Dany and Snow ripe for the merging, which includes ex-slavers, Dorathkians (sp?), Dorne, Arya, and a unified north. And then we have the Lannisters, whatever allies they have left, probably Theon’s uncle’s insanely improbable fleet of 1000 ships, and possibly the Red Woman’s magic. It’s becoming polarizing.

Which is actually great if season7 is the finale (actually hoping it is). That wraps up the political aspect in a neat bow, and it’s a matter of determining who dies in the battle. But if they intend to continue the story, there will need to be something horrible. Perhaps Littlefinger sabotages the relationship between Jon and Dany so that they are indeed at war with each other. Who knows? Maybe it takes reuniting Theon with Jon to reconcile things since they both know what it’s like to be not fully embraced by the Starks (though Theon’s actions are still unforgivable).

While the White Walkers are a threat, it’s still not being taken seriously. It took great effort for the northern houses to finally rally behind Jon. When he talked about the White Walkers, there was still that look of incredulity. So it’ll be hard to convince everyone else that White Walkers are a threat. Dany might not even recognize them as a threat, but that’s hard to imagine since she commands dragons and is immune to fire, so why would White Walkers be outrageous?

I’m hoping that maybe a dragon is taken down by the White Walkers and turns. That’ll make the threat even nastier.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #672 on: June 28, 2016, 11:14:55 am »
0

Where is Ghost? Didn't see him for the last 2 series.
For episode 9 they said it was either Ghost or Wun-Wun for the battle, doing them both wasn't viable for budget reasons.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #673 on: June 28, 2016, 11:44:16 am »
0

There is no chance, Cersei is going to reihn for longer than a minute...

a) She has no kind of legitimizaton (succession in feudalism)

b) She has literally no allies:
 - Declared war on Dorne/Reach
 - North/Vale declared for Jon
 - Riverlands are fucked up
 - Stormlands should feel usurped (see. a)
 - Westerlands should feel angry because of Kevan!
 - Smallfolk/people from KL should feel angry because of buring down the sept while burning hundreds alive!

Mostly agree, but I believe she does have a legitimate claim simply through marriage. Westerlands probably continue to support her because she's still a Lannister. We can only guess at who the Stormlands would support, but they don't seem to have a reason to turn on Cersei. She was joined with House Baratheon through marriage, her beloved children were "Baratheon", and I don't think it is publicly known or believed that Cersei had a hand in Robert's death. So unless they believe she intentionally killed her own son, they may not have any grudge against her.

@Kuildeous I can't see Melisandre joining Cersei. She's not angry at Jon; she's ashamed of herself and maybe her god. She's also a genuine believer, not just randomly picking people to declare as "chosen" or "favoured". Even though she's been banished, she still believes he's the one. I expect she'll continue trying to help Jon, wherever she ends up. Possibly she winds up with somebody else who has had some connection to the Lord of Light, like Beric or even Dany, but it would be quite a leap for Cersei.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #674 on: June 28, 2016, 11:49:32 am »
0

Dany is not going to be okay with <7 kingdoms!!!
She regards the Starks as "Usurper's dogs", no chance for a good deal there. Jon might decide to kneel just like the last king in the north did during the Conquest.

However, if think there is no chance Dany is going to remain in control of Viserion and Rheagal. GRRM regards dragons as equivalent to nuklear weapons (infinite destruction potential) and there would not be any sense in having three of them if they were to fight for the same side.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #675 on: June 28, 2016, 11:57:13 am »
0

Dany agreed to support Yara's claim as Queen of the Iron Islands (with some restrictions) so she's already OK with like 6.5 Kingdoms. She's smart enough to recognize that it may be better to ally with the Stark's, and she's already forged an alliance with Yara as a new generation. She could very well do the same with Jon and/or Stansa, especially with Tyrion's counsel.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #676 on: June 28, 2016, 12:03:25 pm »
0

There is no chance, Cersei is going to reihn for longer than a minute...

a) She has no kind of legitimizaton (succession in feudalism)

b) She has literally no allies:
 - Declared war on Dorne/Reach
 - North/Vale declared for Jon
 - Riverlands are fucked up
 - Stormlands should feel usurped (see. a)
 - Westerlands should feel angry because of Kevan!
 - Smallfolk/people from KL should feel angry because of buring down the sept while burning hundreds alive!

Mostly agree, but I believe she does have a legitimate claim simply through marriage. Westerlands probably continue to support her because she's still a Lannister. We can only guess at who the Stormlands would support, but they don't seem to have a reason to turn on Cersei. She was joined with House Baratheon through marriage, her beloved children were "Baratheon", and I don't think it is publicly known or believed that Cersei had a hand in Robert's death. So unless they believe she intentionally killed her own son, they may not have any grudge against her.

@Kuildeous I can't see Melisandre joining Cersei. She's not angry at Jon; she's ashamed of herself and maybe her god. She's also a genuine believer, not just randomly picking people to declare as "chosen" or "favoured". Even though she's been banished, she still believes he's the one. I expect she'll continue trying to help Jon, wherever she ends up. Possibly she winds up with somebody else who has had some connection to the Lord of Light, like Beric or even Dany, but it would be quite a leap for Cersei.
The Stormlanders have a very very very strong argument to turn against Cersei: Her cause is bloody weak! And i think Cersei was offically accused of regicide in the trial (beside incest), burning the Queen alive doesn't seem to be strong evidence in favor of her evidence.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #677 on: June 28, 2016, 12:11:30 pm »
0

Dany agreed to support Yara's claim as Queen of the Iron Islands (with some restrictions) so she's already OK with like 6.5 Kingdoms. She's smart enough to recognize that it may be better to ally with the Stark's, and she's already forged an alliance with Yara as a new generation. She could very well do the same with Jon and/or Stansa, especially with Tyrion's counsel.
You cannot compare the Iron Islands with the North.
First, she didn't have an alliance with the Tyrells (still strongest army of Westeros) that goes probably hand in hand with the Redwynes(Strongest fleet in Westeros) and Dorne when she teamed up with Yara.
She could give her a lot back then, while Jon couldn't when Daenerys knocks with 3 dragons under control (As stated, this won't happen anyway).
Additionally, the North covers nearly half of the area from Westeros. The Islands probably around 5%.

 A deal just like the one Aegon gave to "The king who knelt" would be the likeliest option.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #678 on: June 28, 2016, 12:29:38 pm »
0

OK Stormlands have reason, but I don't think it's as strong as you say. We don't know what details are public, and those who know the most are now dead or fear death. The Stormlands may not know enough to turn on her, and they don't seem to have anybody prominent enough to lead them against Cersei anyway.

My point with the Iron Islands is that Dany has already shown herself to be fine with <7 Kingdoms (you said that she wouldn't be).  A decent deal is very possible, especially considering:

- Jon is actually a Targaryen. This could come to light in various ways, e.g. Dany gets another vision, or Jon demonstrates the fireproof nature that their family seems to have in the show.

- Dany recognizes that the sins of the father aren't the sins of the son.

- The White Walker's present a major outside threat.

- They're both against Cersei. Enemy of my enemy.

- Dany may sympathize with Sansa as another woman making her way through a patriarchal society.

- Tyrion is reasonable and sympathetic to both Jon and Stansa.

- Dany and Jon may also be tied together by prophecy.

- It's winter. It's probably a bad idea to start a war in the North during winter.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #679 on: June 28, 2016, 12:51:54 pm »
0

You just cannot fight an army containing three dragons. The story of the field of fire (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Field_of_Fire, no spoilers) has proven that in many ways. Jon might end up as Lord of Winterfell and warden of the north, not more if Dany is just marching through (what is hopefully not going to happen)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #680 on: June 28, 2016, 01:17:14 pm »
0

You just cannot fight an army containing three dragons. The story of the field of fire (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Field_of_Fire, no spoilers) has proven that in many ways. Jon might end up as Lord of Winterfell and warden of the north, not more if Dany is just marching through (what is hopefully not going to happen)

Then why did Dany need the Unsullied at all?

Anyway, this doesn't address all the reasons I've provided for why they may not fight each other at all.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #681 on: June 28, 2016, 01:39:08 pm »
0

You just cannot fight an army containing three dragons. The story of the field of fire (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Field_of_Fire, no spoilers) has proven that in many ways. Jon might end up as Lord of Winterfell and warden of the north, not more if Dany is just marching through (what is hopefully not going to happen)

Then why did Dany need the Unsullied at all?

Anyway, this doesn't address all the reasons I've provided for why they may not fight each other at all.
Because the dragons weren't big enough!? Now she doesn't need them for battle anymore, just as cityguard.

Now to your reasons:

- Jon is actually [probably] a Targaryen. This could come to light in various ways, e.g. Dany gets another vision, or Jon demonstrates the fireproof nature that their family seems to have in the show. --> Might happen

- Dany recognizes that the sins of the father aren't the sins of the son. --> Might happen, still no reason to give half of your kingdom away if you own an unbeatable force!

- The White Walker's present a major outside threat. --> Definetly, but i hope the typical "joining each other to beat the threat and live a happy life afterwards" theme is not going to be part of the series.

- They're both against Cersei. Enemy of my enemy. --> Cersei is insanely weak and there is no need for an alliance (cf. page 27)

- Dany may sympathize with Sansa as another woman making her way through a patriarchal society. --> Might happen, still no reason to give half your kingdom away.

- Tyrion is reasonable and sympathetic to both Jon and Stansa. --> Might happen, still no reason to give half your kingdom away.

- Dany and Jon may also be tied together by prophecy. --> Might be the case

- It's winter. It's probably a bad idea to start a war in the North during winter --> Would be a short war (cf. "Field of fire" lasted one day)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #682 on: June 28, 2016, 01:44:02 pm »
+1

I think the biggest points towards Dany not just killing everyone that doesn't kneel to her is Tyrion's influence on her (along with the effects of previous advisors).  She's much more likely now, and especially with Tyrion still by her side (which he presumably will be), to make diplomatic alliances, even possibly give up some land/regions/kingdoms, than she was back in the first four or so Seasons.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #683 on: June 28, 2016, 01:49:51 pm »
0

I think the biggest points towards Dany not just killing everyone that doesn't kneel to her is Tyrion's influence on her (along with the effects of previous advisors).  She's much more likely now, and especially with Tyrion still by her side (which he presumably will be), to make diplomatic alliances, even possibly give up some land/regions/kingdoms, than she was back in the first four or so Seasons.
If you want to conquer a country and you are giving up parts of it because you feel pity about your enemies/opponents, you shouldn't start conquering in the first place. Anyway, no one would be stupid enough (not even Jon) to fight a much bigger army (Tyrells alone have the biggest in Westeros) containing 3 bloody dragons.
Therefore, since this party (Unsullied+Second Sons+Dorne+Reach+3Dragons!!!+Biggest fleet) is so overwhelmingly strong, there is no chance that it will remain that way longer than 1-2 episodes. 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #684 on: June 28, 2016, 01:54:12 pm »
0

I think the biggest points towards Dany not just killing everyone that doesn't kneel to her is Tyrion's influence on her (along with the effects of previous advisors).  She's much more likely now, and especially with Tyrion still by her side (which he presumably will be), to make diplomatic alliances, even possibly give up some land/regions/kingdoms, than she was back in the first four or so Seasons.
If you want to conquer a country and you are giving up parts of it because you feel pity about your enemies/opponents, you shouldn't start conquering in the first place. Anyway, no one would be stupid enough (not even Jon) to fight a much bigger army (Tyrells alone have the biggest in Westeros) containing 3 bloody dragons.
Therefore, since this party (Unsullied+Second Sons+Dorne+Reach+3Dragons!!!+Biggest fleet) is so overwhelmingly strong, there is no chance that it will remain that way longer than 1-2 episodes.

Well, I think Dany is adopting less of a conquering mindset and more of a ruling mindset.  Or at least is on that track. 

But I agree that there's definitely going to be developments there in regards to her army and dragons.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #685 on: June 28, 2016, 01:54:18 pm »
0

Littlefinger may be the fly in the ointment. He said that he wants the throne. He’ll pretty much do everything he can to ensure it.

And hey, soon will be Dany and her merry band of kickassery storming Westeros and threatening his vision. So perhaps he’ll be the greatest enemy from within. He may poison the relationship between Jon and Dany (figuratively). He may kill off a dragon by poisoning a few cows (literally).

And the Northmen are all gung-ho over House Stark now, so how will they react if a new contender arrives? Jon may see the wisdom in supporting her bid for the throne, but that’s not going to sit well with his supporters—especially the more traditional ones. This is something else Littlefinger can exploit. And while Dany may be tempted to just lay waste to them, Tyrion will likely advise against it because he knows Stark can be a valuable ally (and a wicked thorn).

I dunno. On paper, it’s very obvious that Cersei will lose in a heartbeat. The writers will find a way to make it not so easy. And then we’ll all bitch about it next year.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #686 on: June 28, 2016, 01:58:31 pm »
0

Littlefinger may be the fly in the ointment. He said that he wants the throne. He’ll pretty much do everything he can to ensure it.

And hey, soon will be Dany and her merry band of kickassery storming Westeros and threatening his vision. So perhaps he’ll be the greatest enemy from within. He may poison the relationship between Jon and Dany (figuratively). He may kill off a dragon by poisoning a few cows (literally).

And the Northmen are all gung-ho over House Stark now, so how will they react if a new contender arrives? Jon may see the wisdom in supporting her bid for the throne, but that’s not going to sit well with his supporters—especially the more traditional ones. This is something else Littlefinger can exploit. And while Dany may be tempted to just lay waste to them, Tyrion will likely advise against it because he knows Stark can be a valuable ally (and a wicked thorn).

I dunno. On paper, it’s very obvious that Cersei will lose in a heartbeat. The writers will find a way to make it not so easy. And then we’ll all bitch about it next year.
I don't think there will be much of a conflict between Dany & Jon (if Dany remains as strong as now), Jon and any other person with a brain in the head, will kneel, take Winterfell and the wardenship of the North.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #687 on: June 28, 2016, 02:05:45 pm »
0

There's also the 'dragon has three heads' thing, which we take to mean that there will be three riders for the three dragons.  It may be that these are not so much bequeathed by Dany, but instead happen by some other means.. maybe the dragons themselves choose.  So we may end up with dragons on opposing factions, forcing or influencing deals or alliances.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #688 on: June 28, 2016, 02:11:50 pm »
0

There's also the 'dragon has three heads' thing, which we take to mean that there will be three riders for the three dragons.  It may be that these are not so much bequeathed by Dany, but instead happen by some other means.. maybe the dragons themselves choose.  So we may end up with dragons on opposing factions, forcing or influencing deals or alliances.
I think one will get "nettled" (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Sheepstealer, no spoiler), probably by Euron (in the book maybe Quentyn if still alive, otherwise Victarion) and one be ridden regularly from one of those secret Targaryens (Jaime?, Jon?, in the book maybe Aegon?).
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #689 on: June 28, 2016, 02:16:08 pm »
0

"Because the dragons weren't big enough!? Now she doesn't need them for battle anymore, just as cityguard." - Then why didn't she just wait?  Whatever you say, she's still taking an army with her.  The Targaryens brought an army for that first invasion too.  Dragons aren't an instant win card.

"Cersei is insanely weak and there is no need for an alliance" - Her position is tenuous, but she's still on the Iron Throne.  She has power, she is a threat.  She has the Mountain, and that may mean that she'll have more personal zombies.  There's a lot at play; you can't dismiss her out of hand.


"Would be a short war (cf. "Field of fire" lasted one day)" - Different circumstances.  Dragons are amazing but that doesn't mean they're a silver bullet.  Dany may not have the experience to deploy them fully.  Even if she did, there's only three of them and the North is a big place.  How much do dragons mind the cold?  How much control does she really have over them?  Again, there's a lot at play that you can't just hand wave over.


You acknowledged all the other points as possible.  You might dismiss one or two, but taken all together it's certainly reason enough to "give half your kingdom away", especially because it's not yet her kingdom, she doesn't have to fully give it away (there's a lot of middle ground here), and -- as Witherweaver points out -- Dany and Tyrion are making a point of not going on a destructive warpath.  She doesn't want to be seen as the next Mad King, and she's already demonstrated restraint against the Masters.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #690 on: June 28, 2016, 02:24:31 pm »
+1

I think Arya will play a very important role there. And may be her wolf too
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #691 on: June 28, 2016, 02:24:51 pm »
0

"Because the dragons weren't big enough!? Now she doesn't need them for battle anymore, just as cityguard." - Then why didn't she just wait?  Whatever you say, she's still taking an army with her.  The Targaryens brought an army for that first invasion too.  Dragons aren't an instant win card.

"Cersei is insanely weak and there is no need for an alliance" - Her position is tenuous, but she's still on the Iron Throne.  She has power, she is a threat.  She has the Mountain, and that may mean that she'll have more personal zombies.  There's a lot at play; you can't dismiss her out of hand.


"Would be a short war (cf. "Field of fire" lasted one day)" - Different circumstances.  Dragons are amazing but that doesn't mean they're a silver bullet.  Dany may not have the experience to deploy them fully.  Even if she did, there's only three of them and the North is a big place.  How much do dragons mind the cold?  How much control does she really have over them?  Again, there's a lot at play that you can't just hand wave over.


You acknowledged all the other points as possible.  You might dismiss one or two, but taken all together it's certainly reason enough to "give half your kingdom away", especially because it's not yet her kingdom, she doesn't have to fully give it away (there's a lot of middle ground here), and -- as Witherweaver points out -- Dany and Tyrion are making a point of not going on a destructive warpath.  She doesn't want to be seen as the next Mad King, and she's already demonstrated restraint against the Masters.
But here army is probably even bigger than the other ones combined (meaning North + Vale + Westerlands). As said before, Warden of the North + Lord of Winterfell seems to be the best deal I could imagine (its basically what the Starks had before the war and more Jon ever could imagine for himself). However I strongly suspect this won't matter at all, since Dany is not going to sustain that much power in Season 7 respectively tWow/aDoS. Would be just ridiculous.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #692 on: June 28, 2016, 02:26:05 pm »
0

I think Arya will play a very important role there. And may be her wolf too
Perhaps. Still wonder how she managed to do THAT much THAT quick ;-)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #693 on: June 28, 2016, 02:33:57 pm »
0

The storylines in the show, even in a given episode, are not necessarily told chronologically faithfully with respect to each other.  The show produces are on record saying this.. basically in a given episode one one storyline can span days while the other weeks, even if they're interwoven or otherwise out of order.  The idea is that storytelling/development/drama/etc. is more important than having the timelines match perfectly, and I think that's a good call.   
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #694 on: June 28, 2016, 02:46:07 pm »
0

Its still a lot.
She had to
 a) Learn how to face-change
 b) Move to Westeros
 c) Infiltrate the twins
 d) Learn how to cook
 e) Kill off the Freys (why did no one notice, cooking must have taken hours)
 f) Cook them
 g) Organize that you are the only one in the room when Walder wants the pies
 h) Kill Walder Frey

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #695 on: June 28, 2016, 03:55:00 pm »
0

Jon is not fireproof. We saw this with the first wight at castle Black that he attempted to burn and then had to fight the burning wight.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #696 on: June 28, 2016, 03:58:42 pm »
0

Jon is not fireproof. We saw this with the first wight at castle Black that he attempted to burn and then had to fight the burning wight.
Neither Viserys (except the heat didn't hurt him)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #697 on: June 28, 2016, 04:29:09 pm »
0

But here army is probably even bigger than the other ones combined (meaning North + Vale + Westerlands). As said before, Warden of the North + Lord of Winterfell seems to be the best deal I could imagine (its basically what the Starks had before the war and more Jon ever could imagine for himself). However I strongly suspect this won't matter at all, since Dany is not going to sustain that much power in Season 7 respectively tWow/aDoS. Would be just ridiculous.

Well that's just another reason why she might offer a good deal to Jon then -- her army might not be sustainable.

Jon is not fireproof. We saw this with the first wight at castle Black that he attempted to burn and then had to fight the burning wight.

Maybe he's more fireproof than he used to be now that he's back from the dead.  Magic!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 04:30:55 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #698 on: June 28, 2016, 04:44:23 pm »
0

But here army is probably even bigger than the other ones combined (meaning North + Vale + Westerlands). As said before, Warden of the North + Lord of Winterfell seems to be the best deal I could imagine (its basically what the Starks had before the war and more Jon ever could imagine for himself). However I strongly suspect this won't matter at all, since Dany is not going to sustain that much power in Season 7 respectively tWow/aDoS. Would be just ridiculous.

Well that's just another reason why she might offer a good deal to Jon then -- her army might not be sustainable.

Jon is not fireproof. We saw this with the first wight at castle Black that he attempted to burn and then had to fight the burning wight.

Maybe he's more fireproof than he used to be now that he's back from the dead.  Magic!
But there is no need for a siege...Look what happened to Harren the Black...And Harrenhall is hell stronger than Winterfell...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #699 on: June 28, 2016, 05:58:25 pm »
0

But there is no need for a siege...Look what happened to Harren the Black...And Harrenhall is hell stronger than Winterfell...

I'm not talking about a siege.  I'm talking about this:

However I strongly suspect this won't matter at all, since Dany is not going to sustain that much power in Season 7 respectively tWow/aDoS. Would be just ridiculous.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #700 on: June 28, 2016, 06:36:14 pm »
0

But there is no need for a siege...Look what happened to Harren the Black...And Harrenhall is hell stronger than Winterfell...

I'm not talking about a siege.  I'm talking about this:

However I strongly suspect this won't matter at all, since Dany is not going to sustain that much power in Season 7 respectively tWow/aDoS. Would be just ridiculous.
Sorry, missunderstanding. That might be the case as stated before, but i think that would change the situation too much (Probably two other parties owning some nukes (aka dragon)) that discussing specfics doesn't make much sense. But yes, that could lead to a Jon/Dany alliance.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #701 on: June 29, 2016, 12:45:11 am »
0

Irony: "Fuck everyone who isn't us." -- Jaime Lannister to Cersei.

Shower-thought that was probably immediately obvious to everyone, but that I just realized.

Cersei did exactly what Jaime wanted to prevent by killing the Mad King.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #702 on: June 29, 2016, 12:47:21 am »
0

Irony: "Fuck everyone who isn't us." -- Jaime Lannister to Cersei.

Shower-thought that was probably immediately obvious to everyone, but that I just realized.

Cersei did exactly what Jaime wanted to prevent by killing the Mad King.
Not quite, Aerys wanted to literally "burn them all", would have meant millions of deaths rather than a few hundred.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #703 on: June 29, 2016, 07:55:49 am »
0

Not quite, Aerys wanted to literally "burn them all", would have meant millions of deaths rather than a few hundred.

She used it against her own people, so the parallel is still there, even if the scope is smaller.

At the very least, she’s going to get grief from someone for using a sledgehammer to kill a fly. Jamie seems a likely candidate.

In any case, she’s shown a willingness to commit mass murder, which should give anyone—especially Jamie—pause. She’s very capable of taking the Mad King route. This may be a reason why King’s Landing will not be so easy for Dany to take. Dany seeks to liberate and preserve. She’s a fierce ruler, but she still has a big heart. Cersei could hold her off by threatening more mass murder.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #704 on: June 29, 2016, 09:01:26 am »
0

Not quite, Aerys wanted to literally "burn them all", would have meant millions of deaths rather than a few hundred.

She used it against her own people, so the parallel is still there, even if the scope is smaller.

At the very least, she’s going to get grief from someone for using a sledgehammer to kill a fly. Jamie seems a likely candidate.

In any case, she’s shown a willingness to commit mass murder, which should give anyone—especially Jamie—pause. She’s very capable of taking the Mad King route. This may be a reason why King’s Landing will not be so easy for Dany to take. Dany seeks to liberate and preserve. She’s a fierce ruler, but she still has a big heart. Cersei could hold her off by threatening more mass murder.
Latter does seem quite logical, lets see what happens.
I still wonder why they cut the valonquar part of "Maggy the frog's" prophecy, would fit perfectly regarding the new development...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #705 on: June 29, 2016, 12:12:27 pm »
0

I don't know. It could also be that Arya just kills Cersei before Danny even comes.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #706 on: June 29, 2016, 02:24:16 pm »
0

I don't know. It could also be that Arya just kills Cersei before Danny even comes.

I suspect this may happen. In fact, it may be how they can take King’s Landing without Cersei blowing it up. Arya might not even be involved with the war. She just wants to get her revenge. I forget what her list is like, though it’s getting smaller and smaller. I know Cersei was definitely on the list. I’m not sure if Jamie was on it or not. The Hound was, but she might not be interested in killing him anymore since she already did (sorta). So she may just make her way to King’s Landing with the intent to kill Cersei and possibly save the day for Jon and/or Dany.

It seems like they’re focusing on Arya’s revenge enough that it seems unlikely she won’t be the one to kill Cersei. But then again, how poetic would it be if Jamie once more commits regicide—and against his own sister/lover too. I mean, that story’s way better than Arya’s revenge tale.

Maybe it’s both. Jamie demands she steps away from the brink of madness, she refuses, he has to fight the Mountain, and Arya sneaks in during the fight and strikes her down just as Jamie kills (or has a pyrrhic victory) the Mountain. That seems far too simple, so that won’t be the way it ends.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #707 on: June 29, 2016, 02:58:49 pm »
0

I don't know. It could also be that Arya just kills Cersei before Danny even comes.
The Hound was, but she might not be interested in killing him anymore since she already did (sorta).

I don't think so, when she told Jaqen that she wanted the Hound dead during the game of lies, he called her out as a liar.  (Or, something to that effect.)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #708 on: June 29, 2016, 05:22:22 pm »
0

Arya straight up said that she has taken the hound off her list.

I think she's almost through. Is anyone except the mountain and Cersei still on there?

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #709 on: June 29, 2016, 06:12:23 pm »
0

Arya straight up said that she has taken the hound off her list.

I think she's almost through. Is anyone except the mountain and Cersei still on there?
Ser Ilyn Payne is also remaining.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #710 on: June 30, 2016, 12:20:27 pm »
0

Arya straight up said that she has taken the hound off her list.

I think she's almost through. Is anyone except the mountain and Cersei still on there?
Ser Ilyn Payne is also remaining.

Considering the actor is/was dying of cancer and has been phased out of the show, seems unlikely.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #711 on: June 30, 2016, 12:23:27 pm »
0

Arya straight up said that she has taken the hound off her list.

I think she's almost through. Is anyone except the mountain and Cersei still on there?
Ser Ilyn Payne is also remaining.

Considering the actor is/was dying of cancer and has been phased out of the show, seems unlikely.
Didn't know that, however he is still on the list(isn't he?).
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #712 on: June 30, 2016, 01:42:33 pm »
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Yeah.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #713 on: June 30, 2016, 06:51:46 pm »
0

Arya straight up said that she has taken the hound off her list.

I think she's almost through. Is anyone except the mountain and Cersei still on there?

I'm rereading the books, and I think Beric Dondarrion is on the list there, but the show never quite went there.

Though killing him for good would truly be a crowning achievement.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #714 on: June 30, 2016, 06:55:30 pm »
0

Arya straight up said that she has taken the hound off her list.

I think she's almost through. Is anyone except the mountain and Cersei still on there?

I'm rereading the books, and I think Beric Dondarrion is on the list there, but the show never quite went there.

Though killing him for good would truly be a crowning achievement.
The BwB plot was trimmed so much in the show (still don't understand why Lady Stoneheart was cut) that I wouldn't expect anything in that direction.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #715 on: June 30, 2016, 10:12:37 pm »
+1

Arya straight up said that she has taken the hound off her list.

I think she's almost through. Is anyone except the mountain and Cersei still on there?

I'm rereading the books, and I think Beric Dondarrion is on the list there, but the show never quite went there.

Though killing him for good would truly be a crowning achievement.
The BwB plot was trimmed so much in the show (still don't understand why Lady Stoneheart was cut) that I wouldn't expect anything in that direction.

THERE'S STILL TIME TO BRING HER BACK
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #716 on: July 01, 2016, 01:44:28 am »
0

Arya straight up said that she has taken the hound off her list.

I think she's almost through. Is anyone except the mountain and Cersei still on there?

I'm rereading the books, and I think Beric Dondarrion is on the list there, but the show never quite went there.

Though killing him for good would truly be a crowning achievement.
The BwB plot was trimmed so much in the show (still don't understand why Lady Stoneheart was cut) that I wouldn't expect anything in that direction.

THERE'S STILL TIME TO BRING HER BACK
It's rather unlikely, especially after considering that GRRM confirmed her absence at Balticon.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #717 on: July 03, 2016, 09:44:00 pm »
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It's rather unlikely, especially after considering that GRRM confirmed her absence at Balticon.

Was that confirming for the show entirely, or  could it be for just the most recent season?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #718 on: July 04, 2016, 01:25:50 am »
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It's rather unlikely, especially after considering that GRRM confirmed her absence at Balticon.

Was that confirming for the show entirely, or  could it be for just the most recent season?
Well, he said that she won't appear...If he speaks the truth is another question.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #719 on: July 04, 2016, 09:09:50 am »
0

I have to think that it was Arya who killed Lord Frey is reason enough to show that Lady Stoneheart won't be showing up. Because I have to think in the books that it will be the Band of Brothers that gets that job done in a revenge version of the Red Wedding. It there was a time in the story to introduce Lady Stoneheart that was the moment and since it didn't happen then, I highly doubt it will ever happen.

Plus author confirmation helps to make it even more unlikely.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #720 on: July 04, 2016, 10:57:07 am »
0

I have to think that it was Arya who killed Lord Frey is reason enough to show that Lady Stoneheart won't be showing up. Because I have to think in the books that it will be the Band of Brothers that gets that job done in a revenge version of the Red Wedding. It there was a time in the story to introduce Lady Stoneheart that was the moment and since it didn't happen then, I highly doubt it will ever happen.

Plus author confirmation helps to make it even more unlikely.
So sad, but probably true... :-(
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #721 on: July 04, 2016, 11:03:11 am »
+2

You can't take the sky from me!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #722 on: July 04, 2016, 11:14:01 am »
0

You can't take the sky from me!
"Sky" would mean for me Aegon, Quentyn, Dorne(!!!!!!!!!), Alayne, Jon Connington, Victarion, LS and senseful plotlines...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #723 on: July 28, 2016, 08:21:00 pm »
0



the actor is pretty funny. and, well, he's a really great actor. the way joffrey just radiates arrogance in every second on screen is pretty amazing.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #724 on: August 29, 2016, 04:54:24 am »
+1

I found some WTF in Internet. To those of you who love Codenames. Spoilers of GoT ahead

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #725 on: August 25, 2017, 08:44:30 am »
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Revive :-D
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #726 on: August 25, 2017, 12:15:31 pm »
0

Edit: Wrong thread~
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #727 on: April 29, 2019, 10:40:01 am »
0

Seems like necroing this thread is reasonable, although the TV series has diverged from the books, and there has been a lot of TV discussion here.

So I seem to the only person who was actually underwhelmed by the Battle of Winterfell. There were some really good bits in there, and I enjoyed those bits, but the parts in between bored me. I think part of the issue was how it was filmed. A lot of the scenes were dark, up-close, ambiguous, and featured many cuts. Perhaps it was designed to show just how chaotic war can be. A lot of these shots were done with the Battle of the Bastards, but maybe that was less annoying because it wasn't dark.

As far as establishing atmosphere, the darkness and weather did a great job, but it wasn't great for me.

That being said, I enjoyed the highlights.

The Dothraki with flaming swords were a great-looking scene, though it bothered me greatly that their great tactic was to throw the horsemen into a battle with no support so they could be killed and come back as zombies. Actually, I'm not sure they were raised as zombies, but they might as well have been. The scene was beautifully shot, but I feel it was marred by the logistical problem of what they did.

Lady Mormont kicked ass. I loved her killing the giant. No complaints there. It's a pity she had to die, but honestly she had the best death.

I was vindicated when my theory that hiding in the crypt was a really bad idea when facing a foe that could raise the dead. Honestly, I think that scene could've been improved upon by everyone being massacred because that would be a really dark moment where the people who were in the "safest" part of the castle were wiped out. This scene was also foreshadowed by Arya giving Sansa Chekov's knife, though it was never used. That bugs me because why would Arya give Sansa a weapon only to not have it be relevant? Was it just jacking with our meta-knowledge? When they focused on Sansa and Tyrion, I was thinking that perhaps she would sacrifice herself by drawing out the zombies, letting everyone else escape the crypt. I guess I shouldn't call this a highlight since it was my biggest disappointment with this episode, but I can't deny that it was shot well.

And of course, Arya murdering the Night King. This scene was great. I wasn't fond of Theon throwing away his life with such a clumsy attack. They could've at least made his death cooler. But there was some good tension as Arya leapt to save the day, was thwarted in her attack, and then pulled a reversal to provide a satisfying end to the Night King.


The highs were good enough to make this overall an enjoyable episode, but it ranks lowest of the battle scenes for me.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #728 on: May 19, 2019, 11:05:33 pm »
0

Sooooo who saw the finale?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #729 on: May 20, 2019, 12:14:23 pm »
0

I watched it. I'm okay with it. It wasn't anything spectacular. It pretty much set out to wrap up the story, and it did just that. I know some people weren't happy with it, but I didn't see anything too offensive.

Some minor gripes I have:

How did anyone know that Jon killed her? Obviously he told people. Should've let Arya do it with her ninja magic. She knows how to keep her mouth shut. Or maybe he ran away, and people concluded by his absence that he was the culprit. Jon sucks at deception. Bran probably knew, but I doubt he would've narced on Jon. If he was interested in doing that, he would've just located him when Grey Worm was hunting him down.

Making Bronn the Master of Coin? You know, in case the audience decided that Tyrion would have given up making bad decisions.

Man, so slow. But that is kind of typical for season enders. It's just that previous seasons had some story to look forward to, and we don't have that here.

Arya deciding to be Columbus was a little strange. Did she feel she experienced all that could be done in Westeros and decided to go find sea monsters to the west? I must admit I didn't see this coming.

Time continued to be wibbly-wobbly in terms of how long it takes to travel. At least they're consistent in inconsistency.


Some bits I liked:

Tyrion reminding us that Dany's always been pretty cruel. We just went along with it because nobody cared about the victims. It was when she turned that cruelty to others that we realized what she is.

Dany regaling Jon with tales of how she envisioned the Iron Throne.

Tyrion's newfound humility.

Sansa making herself Queen of the North. 6 > 7

Ghost.



I had some ideas of how the show could've gone, but I'm fine with the decisions they made.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #730 on: May 20, 2019, 02:36:08 pm »
0

In the penultimate episode, when Jaime meets Cersei before they die together; I was convinced Arya had finished Euron's work, stolen Jaime's face, and was going to kill her. I'm still certain this is a better plot line.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #731 on: May 20, 2019, 04:21:12 pm »
0

Are we doing spoilers? I figured anyone checking out this thread has already seen it. I may be accustomed to the RPG.net discussion where that's assumed.

A lot of people wanted that scene to go differently. So many possible candidates. While I probably would have cheered at any of them, I'm kind of okay with it having a pathetic end.

I hadn't considered Jamie, but that may be because I already blew my prediction by thinking Qyburn was actually Arya with the stabby-stab. Once that turned out to not be the case, it hadn't even occurred to me to go with your suspicion.

Though how awesome of storytelling would it have been to set up a red herring for my suspicion only to have your suspicion take place?

Ah well, I can think of a dozen ways each character could've done something. I can't be mad just because my pet prediction didn't happen.

The memes are getting pretty funny, especially the angry chair.

I have to say that Facebook GoT fans are awful. They're spoiling things left and right, while I've seen very few Avengers: Endgame spoilers. I suppose it's easier for a television show, since aspiring meme creators can easily capture scenes to caption. That's not so easy with Endgame.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #732 on: May 20, 2019, 06:38:49 pm »
0

This ending is absoultely amazing.  I actually like it more than all the endings I had considered beforehand. There were things wrong with this season, but the ending was not one of them.

Also, I made one prediction this season after ep4, which was that Varis would die in ep5, and I totally nailed it. Though admittedly I expected Danny to be smart enough to figure it out herself rather than having Tyrion tell her.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #733 on: May 20, 2019, 08:51:31 pm »
0

Well, that episode sure was... a thing that happened.

How did anyone know that Jon killed her? Obviously he told people. Should've let Arya do it with her ninja magic. She knows how to keep her mouth shut. Or maybe he ran away, and people concluded by his absence that he was the culprit. Jon sucks at deception. Bran probably knew, but I doubt he would've narced on Jon. If he was interested in doing that, he would've just located him when Grey Worm was hunting him down.

I mean, I think this is perfectly in character for Jon: even if it was the right thing to do, assassinating the queen is a crime, and he was willing to face the consequences. What bugs me here though is, why didn't Grey Worm just execute Jon (and Tyrion) immediately, rather than holding them in prison for however many weeks it took for a Great Council to be called? Why should Grey Worm recognize a Great Council's authority to tell him what to do with prisoners who had betrayed the queen?

Quote
Tyrion reminding us that Dany's always been pretty cruel. We just went along with it because nobody cared about the victims. It was when she turned that cruelty to others that we realized what she is.

I don't really buy this, though? It's a far cry from executing slavers—all of whom, as Tyrion notes, were "evil men"—to burninating the civilians of King's Landing. Dany has shown no tendency before of being cruel toward the innocent.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #734 on: May 20, 2019, 09:27:22 pm »
0

Jon would certainly admit to what he did.

Holding Jon and Tyrion prisoner gives the Unsullied the possibility to get justice without initiating a war. Even if they're willing to go to war, it isn't the best option.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #735 on: May 20, 2019, 10:39:43 pm »
0

I don't really buy this, though? It's a far cry from executing slavers—all of whom, as Tyrion notes, were "evil men"—to burninating the civilians of King's Landing. Dany has shown no tendency before of being cruel toward the innocent.

Yeah, I'm still not sure how I feel about that. It feels a bit forced, but the fact that she did it also made the show a lot more interesting.

She has killed innocents before, for example when she crucified all of the masters because -some- of them were cruel to slaves. But she's also learned lessons about the value of forgiveness before.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #736 on: May 21, 2019, 12:07:42 am »
0

I don't really buy this, though? It's a far cry from executing slavers—all of whom, as Tyrion notes, were "evil men"—to burninating the civilians of King's Landing. Dany has shown no tendency before of being cruel toward the innocent.

Yeah, I'm still not sure how I feel about that. It feels a bit forced, but the fact that she did it also made the show a lot more interesting.

She has killed innocents before, for example when she crucified all of the masters because -some- of them were cruel to slaves. But she's also learned lessons about the value of forgiveness before.

Meh, all of them owned slaves; that in itself is a wrong fairly punishable by death.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #737 on: May 21, 2019, 03:54:10 am »
0

I mean, George Washington flogged his slaves. You have to put things into perspective.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #738 on: May 21, 2019, 06:37:13 am »
0

I don't really buy this, though? It's a far cry from executing slavers—all of whom, as Tyrion notes, were "evil men"—to burninating the civilians of King's Landing. Dany has shown no tendency before of being cruel toward the innocent.

Yeah, I'm still not sure how I feel about that. It feels a bit forced, but the fact that she did it also made the show a lot more interesting.

She has killed innocents before, for example when she crucified all of the masters because -some- of them were cruel to slaves. But she's also learned lessons about the value of forgiveness before.

Meh, all of them owned slaves; that in itself is a wrong fairly punishable by death.

I think if it's totally normal to own slaves then it's not reasonable to think that everyone who owns slaves deserves to die? Especially not if someone uses their power to speak out against the crucifying of slaves.

She also sent the rich charming black guy who betrayed her in Quarth to die of thirst in a locked room, rather than just killing him. That wasn't done to an innocent, but it was quite unnecessary torture.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #739 on: May 21, 2019, 09:38:23 am »
0

It's not that she executed evil people that's the problem It's that she did it so heinously. That should've been a red flag for us. It certainly should've been a red flag when she chose to burn the Tarleys alive rather than simply behead them. Even hanging is a preferable method of dying (if done correctly, that is).

Compare Ned's approach to capital punishment to Dany's approach. He took it as his duty that those who break the law should be punished, and he owned up to the awfulness of it. Her approach was vicious. Hers was less about justice and more about vengeance. We were able to excuse the slavers' deaths because they probably inflicted pain on others too. But the Tarleys were given a terrible sentence simply for refusing to bend the knee. They were prisoners of war, and they died a torturous death. The Lannisters in the streets of King's Landing received better deaths at the hands of Grey Worm.

I find it interesting (and horrifying) that I was perfectly willing to go along with her war crimes simply because she's a "good guy." Think about how this compares to real life. How many people have supported the atrocities committed by a world leader because they want him/her to be good? That makes viewing Dany's war crimes really uncomfortable because many of were rooting for a tyrant; we just hadn't really seen it.

The Tarleys should've been the red flag for me, but it wasn't. I did come to come my senses when she chose to give Varys a similarly terrible execution. After she had done that, I was not surprised that she would wreak her cruelty on everyone else.

And yeah, it was within Jon's character. I still face-palmed, but it was mostly because of his action and not because I thought it was a bad writer decision.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #740 on: May 21, 2019, 12:45:30 pm »
0

Even hanging is a preferable method of dying (if done correctly, that is).

I've been thinking about this when Varys was burnt. Is it actually true if the burning is done by dragon fire that's hot enough to melt steel in a couple of seconds? You may die so quickly that it's relatively less painful than hanging. I don't think it's the same as what Melisandre did.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #741 on: May 21, 2019, 02:27:46 pm »
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(Also, Randyll Tarly is a scumbag who got what was coming to him. I was surprised Sam was so upset by it honestly. I guess Dickon deserved better though.)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #742 on: May 21, 2019, 04:33:57 pm »
0

It's not that she executed evil people that's the problem It's that she did it so heinously. That should've been a red flag for us. It certainly should've been a red flag when she chose to burn the Tarleys alive rather than simply behead them. Even hanging is a preferable method of dying (if done correctly, that is).
There was a Last Week Tonight episode recently talking about how it is an illusion to think that there is something like a "clean" method of killing someone. Any method of killing has its flaws, you just shouldn't do it.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #743 on: May 21, 2019, 04:37:53 pm »
0

The fact is, everyone in this show has been cruel, and for some reason we are meant to believe that Daenerys's cruelty marked a descent into madness. There just wasn't enough to make her change of heart believable. Also I'm still salty about the way the White Walkers were handled.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #744 on: May 21, 2019, 05:48:02 pm »
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I do think that the decision of the writers was ultimately motivated by wanting to defy expectations and not by a judgment of what would be the most plausible course of Action of this character. But it doesn't necessarily follow that it's a bad thing.

When I said ending, I somewhat arbitrarily was just talking about ep6, given the fact that the Danny shift already happened.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #745 on: May 21, 2019, 06:29:34 pm »
+2

The fact is, everyone in this show has been cruel, and for some reason we are meant to believe that Daenerys's cruelty marked a descent into madness. There just wasn't enough to make her change of heart believable. Also I'm still salty about the way the White Walkers were handled.

The conclusion of the story of the White Walkers was a travesty. “The greatest threat this world has ever known”, who’s motives still aren’t known (exactly), and whose entire existence served exactly no purpose whatsoever... it was truly a let down.

I mean, really, the show needed the entirety of a season to be dedicated to that story arc, but whatever.

Honestly, I was hoping that they lost the battle at Winterfell and would be forced to fall back to the Iron Islands, which would’ve given more purpose to Yara’s storyline. And it would’ve given final closure to Theon as well. It would’ve allowed the show breathing room, and given more time to delve into the White Walker’s back story.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #746 on: May 22, 2019, 10:52:54 pm »
+2

You know, it’s funny - I haven’t fully tried to put my feelings on the conclusion into writing until I wrote this text to my mother earlier today. Thought I would share:

I’m doing something that I probably shouldn’t - I’m about halfway through a reread of Book 1 of GoT. I’m not sure if somehow I believe that, show ended, Martin will somehow feel a release of pressure and finally be capable of finishing his story, or if I’m just hopefully seeking a more satisfying conclusion. Maybe I’m just suffering GoT withdrawals knowing there’s nothing more to come.

I wasn’t hugely disappointed with the finale, in that I’m not at all surprised that they happy ended most still living characters - and further, I think the overall feel of the ending is actually what Martin intended/intends. Certainly I think Bran as King and Dany Dead is exactly what was planned from the beginning. My dissatisfaction isn’t the ending itself, it’s that the storylines weren’t borne out to justify such a conclusion. Everything that happened was plausible enough, if given time and space and story to develop. I believe the show could’ve sold the exact (or near enough) sane ending to great acclaim if built out over seasons 7-11 instead of slam packed into 7 & 8.

As a reader or observer, you need to feel invested, and you want to feel rewarded. HBO spent 6 seasons building off the written material to invest it’s viewers in the show. Even the deviances from the book were  accepted, as the show still took the time it needed to be compelling and engaging. The story, if not all the details, was there. And as a viewer, you cared. Over the past 2 seasons, HBO simply had a story to tell. They didn’t know how to build upon what Martin had provided. They didn’t know how to build the characters or the story, and thus the viewer’s reward - the conclusion - was not earned by anyone involved - Not unjustified mind you. The ending was perfectly acceptable. Just not earned.
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TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #747 on: May 23, 2019, 12:12:44 am »
0

I pretty much agree. The acceleration of story lines compromised immersion and investment.

I find it kind of ironic, because I remember seeing a lot of criticism in the middle of the series about slow "filler" episodes where nothing happens. I guess you can always find someone to complain about any given thing.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #748 on: May 23, 2019, 04:09:45 am »
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I don't think any GoT episode is filler.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #749 on: May 31, 2019, 02:32:54 pm »
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I've said before that I liked the ending, but here are some things I didn't like

- All the dialogue in episodes 1 and 2 is trying really hard to be clever. people can't just talk normally, it always has to be something witty, and it feels really unnatural. But this wasn't the case anymore after the first two episodes.
– I don't mind the Great War being handled in one episode as much, but the choices of deaths there felt kind of cheap. Even though a lot of characters die, it's all the ones which you expect to die and which don't really hurt, pretty much without exception. Greyjoy died while fully redeeming himself, Jorah died in the most heroic way possible after having redeemed himself, Melisandre died after having played her part fighting the undead (and on purpose), the head of the watch, no-one cares about him, the guy who died before, that was expected... well I probably forgot someone. None of them really hurt. Tyrion should have died there. Or John Snow. Or both dragons. Or all of them. Imagine if John and Tyrion and both dragons had died! The show is supposed to do things that are out of the box.
– Arya should've gotten more credit
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