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Author Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]  (Read 54760 times)

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theory

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A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« on: November 06, 2012, 07:25:33 pm »
0

Be warned that this topic will contain spoilers for the entire series, that is, through the end of A Dance with Dragons.

Please enclose very sensitive posts in spoiler tags.

I'll start things off -- what are some of your favorite/believed fan theories?  R+L=J heads the list for me, including the fact that Lyanna was the laughing knight.  I also buy the Littlefinger theory that he's been doing it all along for Cat, and now Sansa, which makes him rather like Severus Snape in a sense.

I didn't like ADWD as much as the other books, but it did have a couple additions to the pantheon of great ASOIAF moments like when Jon Snow executed Janos Slynt.  Still nothing matches up to "Only Cat." for me, though.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2012, 08:17:36 pm »
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Nothing beats the execution of Janos Slynt. So awesome.

I for one buy the L + R = J theory.

Who the hell is the person killing people in Winterfell, right before Theon escapes with Jeyne?

And is Brienne luring Jaime to Catelyn/Stonehart's trap? It doesn't seem like Brienne would do that... but it seems impossible that the Hound is both alive and wanting to kill Sansa.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2012, 08:18:30 pm »
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Also, Jon Snow dead? Alive as his wolf? About to be resurrected/rescued by fire magic, thanks to Lady Melisandre?

I support King Stannis's claim to the Iron Throne.
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theory

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2012, 08:22:18 pm »
+1

As for Jon: I assume he is dead/warged into his wolf but will be resurrected by Melisandre, thus freeing him of his vow to the Night's Watch.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2012, 08:25:56 pm »
+1

.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 10:40:57 am by () | (_) ^/ »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2012, 09:20:11 pm »
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do we really need the spoiler tags in here? i feel like the title is warning enough for people to stay away.

anyway:
- i think i buy r+l=j. and i think lyanna as the laughing night is even more probable than r+l=j.
- as for jon, id have to guess he's still gonna be around, though part of me wants grrm to actually kill em off just to keep us on our toes. if he comes back though, id assume some warging or melisandre will be involved. or maybe there already was some melisandre action? maybe she did the ol mance/rattleshirt switch on jon too before jon was stabbed? i seem to remember a few things that seemed off in the last jon chapter.
- as for who is killing people, my favorite theory is theon durden
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2012, 10:29:51 pm »
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do we really need the spoiler tags in here? i feel like the title is warning enough for people to stay away.
Recent posts / RSS feeds :/
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2012, 12:10:20 am »
+3

My first thought when reading Jon Snow stabby stabby was "Et tu, Bowen Marsh?"
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2012, 01:11:17 am »
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Read the ASOIAF series after watching season one of the HBO show.  I can't get enough George RR Martin and actually just earlier today I read "A Song for Lya." Wow that was good.  It's a quick sci-fi novella written in the mid 70s that won the Hugo award and was George's biggest accomplishment at the time.  This guy can write.   
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2012, 06:08:46 pm »
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I'll start things off -- what are some of your favorite/believed fan theories?

Everyone dies before the end of the last book.  I mean everyone.  The last fifty pages of the last book are beautiful Tolkien-esque descriptions of scenery.

/hated the first book, haven't picked it up since.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2012, 06:25:16 pm »
+2

I'll start things off -- what are some of your favorite/believed fan theories?

Everyone dies before the end of the last book.  I mean everyone.  The last fifty pages of the last book are beautiful TolkienGMMR-esque descriptions of sceneryfood.

FTFY
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2012, 06:45:53 pm »
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Read the ASOIAF series after watching season one of the HBO show.  I can't get enough George RR Martin and actually just earlier today I read "A Song for Lya." Wow that was good.  It's a quick sci-fi novella written in the mid 70s that won the Hugo award and was George's biggest accomplishment at the time.  This guy can write.   

Season One of the HBO show was freaking amazing.  The first time that I ever actually thought that a TV/film adaptation of a book might be superior to the book itself.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2012, 10:02:41 pm »
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Season One of the HBO show was freaking amazing.  The first time that I ever actually thought that a TV/film adaptation of a book might be superior to the book itself.

season one was quite good. i held off watching until i had read the series but i was still impressed by it. i started streaming season 2 right after and was a bit disappointed. i never even bothered finishing watching the season.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2012, 10:07:34 pm »
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Really? I thought season 2 improved on season 1. Although I did miss Mark Addy's Robert Baratheon, which was in my view an excellent, entertaining, and under-appreciated performance.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2012, 10:16:50 pm »
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yeah it wasn't bad per se, i just lost interest in it fast. i think it started straying away from the books more than it ever did in season 1. for me, the highlight of book 2 was the intrigue surrounding tyrion, and i just don't think that translated well into the show.

and as you hinted at, the increase and decrease in screen time for certain favorite characters didn't help.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2012, 11:34:18 pm »
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It definitely strayed more, but I didn't find the straying bad. The streamlining at Harrenhal worked relatively well, I thought. Did you get to the scenes between Arya and Tywin Lannister? They don't happen in the book, since Tywin never comes to Harrenhal, but they are quite good in the show.

I also liked the changes at Winterfell--Theon killing Rodrik, for instance--though the castle getting destroyed at the end was extremely confusing (deliberately so, I think) if you hadn't read the book. To that end, I didn't mind reserving Ramsay Bolton for a future season, even though the way it happens in the book is a fairly cool reveal. Roose Bolton was doing different thinks in the second season as well, but Roose never seemed like he would develop into an important villain in the first two books, so it seemed sort of appropriate to have him on screen, just kind of being there without being important. And I didn't mind the changes to Robb's marriage.

To me the boring stuff was Daeneryis and Jon, but I found their book 2 plots boring anyway.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2012, 12:46:33 am »
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Read the ASOIAF series after watching season one of the HBO show.  I can't get enough George RR Martin and actually just earlier today I read "A Song for Lya." PWow that was good.  It's a quick sci-fi novella written in the mid 70s that won the Hugo award and was George's biggest accomplishment at the time.  This guy can write.   

Season One of the HBO show was freaking amazing.  The first time that I ever actually thought that a TV/film adaptation of a book might be superior to the book itself.

love the spin on margery tyrell and the actress playing her.. loved her from the tudors on showtime :)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2012, 05:44:56 am »
+1

but it seems impossible that the Hound is both alive and wanting to kill Sansa.[/spoiler]

Hound is pretty much alive, one of the theories that make the most sense, actually. Not hunting Sansa, though.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2012, 03:02:57 pm »
+1

Season One of the HBO show was freaking amazing.  The first time that I ever actually thought that a TV/film adaptation of a book might be superior to the book itself.

season one was quite good. i held off watching until i had read the series but i was still impressed by it. i started streaming season 2 right after and was a bit disappointed. i never even bothered finishing watching the season.

Season 2 featured Maisie William's incredible performance as Arya, and I, for one, am staggered that the Emmys failed to recognize this fact with a nomination.  Harrumph.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2012, 06:11:18 am »
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uhh, can someone explain this to me?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2012, 03:40:05 pm »
+1

uhh, can someone explain this to me?

Explain what?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2012, 06:08:54 pm »
+1

uhh, can someone explain this to me?

Explain what?
the entire thread. I don't get it....
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2012, 06:13:29 pm »
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the entire thread. I don't get it....

a song of ice and fire is a series of fantasy novels written by george r.r. martin. it is what the hbo series 'game of thrones' is based off of. the series isn't finished yet, so this thread has a bunch of discussion on the events so far and how they might shape the things which will happen in the next book.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2012, 06:17:20 pm »
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the entire thread. I don't get it....

a song of ice and fire is a series of fantasy novels written by george r.r. martin. it is what the hbo series 'game of thrones' is based off of. the series isn't finished yet, so this thread has a bunch of discussion on the events so far and how they might shape the things which will happen in the next book.
ahh...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2014, 03:50:03 pm »
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This seems relevant now!

I just recently finished reading through the books for the second time. It's really quite illuminating, it's always hard to remember exactly this character was or what was the relevance of that location when you are just being introduced to them for the first time. Also, the amount of foreshadowing and connections you miss during the first read is just astonishing.

I'm obviously pumped for season three of the show adaptation as well. The Viper is such a cool character, so much cool stuff happening this season!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2014, 03:53:30 pm »
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Who the hell is the person killing people in Winterfell, right before Theon escapes with Jeyne?

And is Brienne luring Jaime to Catelyn/Stonehart's trap? It doesn't seem like Brienne would do that... but it seems impossible that the Hound is both alive and wanting to kill Sansa.


Popular theory for Winterfell ghost killer is the Blackfish.  Less popular theory is Benjen Stark

No way Hound wants to kill Sansa.  There's a bizarre love thing going on there.  Popular (and believable) theory is that The Hound is the gravedigger at the monestary that Brienne visited.  I don't think Brienne will let Jamie die, but something is going to go down there.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2014, 03:54:06 pm »
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This seems relevant now!

I just recently finished reading through the books for the second time. It's really quite illuminating, it's always hard to remember exactly this character was or what was the relevance of that location when you are just being introduced to them for the first time. Also, the amount of foreshadowing and connections you miss during the first read is just astonishing.

I'm obviously pumped for season three of the show adaptation as well. The Viper is such a cool character, so much cool stuff happening this season!

Season four.  And yes it is going to be badass.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2014, 03:55:05 pm »
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So I've watched the entire show but haven't read any of the books. How dangerous is this thread, keeping in mind that I HATE spoilers?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2014, 03:58:16 pm »
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So I've watched the entire show but haven't read any of the books. How dangerous is this thread, keeping in mind that I HATE spoilers?

Do not read this thread.  Or anything anywhere about the series.  You're just begging to get spoiled by book readers.  Many do it intentionally, some just slip.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2014, 03:59:39 pm »
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So I've watched the entire show but haven't read any of the books. How dangerous is this thread, keeping in mind that I HATE spoilers?

Do not read this thread.  Or anything anywhere about the series.  You're just begging to get spoiled by book readers.  Many do it intentionally, some just slip.

Thanks for the heads up! I may read them eventually, I have several friends who say they're great!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2014, 04:01:31 pm »
+2

So I've watched the entire show but haven't read any of the books. How dangerous is this thread, keeping in mind that I HATE spoilers?

Do not read this thread.  Or anything anywhere about the series.  You're just begging to get spoiled by book readers.  Many do it intentionally, some just slip.



Thanks for the heads up! I may read them eventually, I have several friends who say they're great!


It's Kevin Spacey!!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2014, 04:17:39 pm »
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Varys being a Blackfyre?

Cold hands being Benjen Stark?

Also the Shavepate is so going to double-cross everyone.

I also support Stannis for the throne, but it's not like there are that many good pretenders. Daenerys might take over in my heart if Stannis lets Melisandre do too much of whatever she wants to do, and even then I would first back whatever scheme Doran Martell is cooking up.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 04:27:44 pm by pacovf »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2014, 04:19:23 pm »
0

So I've watched the entire show but haven't read any of the books. How dangerous is this thread, keeping in mind that I HATE spoilers?

Do not read this thread.  Or anything anywhere about the series.  You're just begging to get spoiled by book readers.  Many do it intentionally, some just slip.



Thanks for the heads up! I may read them eventually, I have several friends who say they're great!


It's Kevin Spacey!!

Snape kills Dumbledore!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2014, 04:30:21 pm »
0

It would be so awesome if Jon Snow was really dead. Too bad the next book has been postponed to the next year.

As for the series, I really hope they won't take out Tyrion killing Shae
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 04:40:15 pm by Watno »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2014, 05:07:35 pm »
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My take on various theories tossed around here:
I think R*L=J is pretty likely.
I don't think Littlefinger is doing anything for Cat or Sansa in the sense that he wants to help him, but they're rather high in the list of "possessions" he wants to have.
I hadn't heard of Theon being the killer in Winterfell before, but now I think about it, the title of his last chapter makes that very likely.
I agree that the hound is likely the gravedigger with the monks, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's never mentioned again.
No idea what's going on with Brienne.
I don't buy Coldhands=Benjen. It seems a bit to fairy-taily to me, plus one of the Children says that Coldhands was killed long ago.
Not sure how I satnd on Varys being a Blackfyre.
I don't see how you can want Stannis on the throne


And another theory I find really interesting about Bran eating Jojen/Meera: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1kxijq/
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2014, 06:57:14 pm »
0

Bran is definitely very questionable.
Both L+R=J and Hound being the gravedigger seem like virtual locks to be true. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the last we heard of Sandor, though. It'd be a nice ending, but I also loved the character.
Ghost of Winterfell was Mance Rayder and the six spearwives, no?
I'm hoping Jon's properly dead and starts leading the white walker army, or something. All Starks going to the dark side one way or another! (I'm sure Sansa will think of something too at some point. Speaking of Starks, Cat used to be my least favorite character (she ruined EVERYTHING), but this cat-zombie might be even worse. Really confused there! It'll be interesting to see if Brienne's loyalties ultimately lie with her or Jaime.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2014, 07:06:59 pm »
0

My Jon Snow theory: Resurrected by Melisandre. This in fact releases him from his obligation to the Night's Watch, since a brother is only expected to give one life to the cause. He is then freed to become Lord of Winterfell.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2014, 07:23:23 pm »
0

My Jon Snow theory: Resurrected by Melisandre. This in fact releases him from his obligation to the Night's Watch, since a brother is only expected to give one life to the cause. He is then freed to become Lord of Winterfell.

I think this was somehow planned.  Something about reading the letter in front of anyone felt really wrong to me.. I mean, we all knew some bad stuff was going to happen.  I think he knew too.  Somewhere I read someone point out that Jon had a very long meeting with someone prior to it all.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2014, 07:30:30 pm »
0

My Jon Snow theory: Resurrected by Melisandre. This in fact releases him from his obligation to the Night's Watch, since a brother is only expected to give one life to the cause. He is then freed to become Lord of Winterfell.

I think this was somehow planned.  Something about reading the letter in front of anyone felt really wrong to me.. I mean, we all knew some bad stuff was going to happen.  I think he knew too.  Somewhere I read someone point out that Jon had a very long meeting with someone prior to it all.
We've gotten Jon's POV, wouldn't we have learned about this?

No, that doesn't seem like that would run by the not-so-forgiving Watch. He obviously is coming back somehow, though. The contrast to the prologue with Varamir the dying skinchanger seems relevant now, too.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2014, 07:46:19 pm »
0

My Jon Snow theory: Resurrected by Melisandre. This in fact releases him from his obligation to the Night's Watch, since a brother is only expected to give one life to the cause. He is then freed to become Lord of Winterfell.

I think this was somehow planned.  Something about reading the letter in front of anyone felt really wrong to me.. I mean, we all knew some bad stuff was going to happen.  I think he knew too.  Somewhere I read someone point out that Jon had a very long meeting with someone prior to it all.
We've gotten Jon's POV, wouldn't we have learned about this?

No, that doesn't seem like that would run by the not-so-forgiving Watch. He obviously is coming back somehow, though. The contrast to the prologue with Varamir the dying skinchanger seems relevant now, too.


But we don't get all of Jon's story.  There's a lot unaccounted for.. and from my memory, the way that whole part is told is really weird.. it just seemed like there was something else going on.  I'll try to find the actual theory.  I think the long meeting was with Melisandre or Tormund.

But yeah I think him warging into Ghost is definitely part of what happens.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2014, 07:59:42 pm »
0

Oh yeah, another theory on it:

Everyone that stabbed Jon had weird body language.  I don't have the book on me, but first Wick slashes at his neck, Jon unarms him, and Wick backs away and put his hands up, as if to say "not me".  Then Marsh stabs Jon while crying.  Jon tries to draw his sword but he can't remove it.  His swordarm doesn't work.  Could have been a result of being stabbed, but could be some kind of magic too. I don't remember if we see the third dagger, I think it comes from behind.  And the fourth one we're only told he doesn't feel.

So the thought was that there was some warg-like power, or something else, controlling people.


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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2014, 02:05:11 am »
0

I plan to write episodic reviews of Game of Thrones season 4. Here is the first!

http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/07/the-dc-reviews-game-of-thrones-season-four-premiere-episode-two-swords/

Please read and share and like and tweet, etc. It will help me justify writing more of them...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2014, 08:34:23 am »
0

I plan to write episodic reviews of Game of Thrones season 4. Here is the first!

http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/07/the-dc-reviews-game-of-thrones-season-four-premiere-episode-two-swords/

Please read and share and like and tweet, etc. It will help me justify writing more of them...

I didn't read it yet, but I hope you point out how singularly kickass Arya is.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2014, 09:52:42 am »
0

I don't see how you can want Stannis on the throne

Well, he's a BAMF. Also both a competent ruler and alive, two qualities that don't stay together for long in this saga. His reasons to fight for the throne are admittedly not the best ones, and he's got a difficult relationship with ethics, but at least he is perfectly fair with his subjects. Should he listen more to Davos and less to Melisandre, he would make a perfectly good king IMHO.

Who would you rather see in the throne, anyway? Poor Tommen is not going to last when there are so few competent people backing him. I hardly see the Targaryens getting a hold on Westeros, when every house but the Martells would oppose them, with or without unsullied. And you would have to be mad to back any Greyjoy. Who's left, the Starks?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 01:38:18 pm by pacovf »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2014, 04:21:08 pm »
0

Further regarding Stannis
Well, I wouldn't consider being sacrificed due to most likely misinterepreted phrophecies fair treatment. There are many people I guess would be better kings, though none of them are in a good position to get that job and they're probably not even interested in it. I don't see how the average lord would be worse than Stannis.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2014, 04:33:38 pm »
0

I plan to write episodic reviews of Game of Thrones season 4. Here is the first!

http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/07/the-dc-reviews-game-of-thrones-season-four-premiere-episode-two-swords/

Please read and share and like and tweet, etc. It will help me justify writing more of them...

I think the interesting thing about the title of the episode ("Two Swords") is that while Ned's sword is melted down to create two swords, only one of those is given out.  The other (Joffery's) wasn't really talked about.  However, this is another sword in the episode: Needle.  I kind of think that's more aptly the second sword of the "Two Swords".

The episode begins with Jamie being given Oathkeeper (a seemingly ironic name).  This is a symbolic point in Jaime's redemption arc, for those of us that know what's coming.  The episode ends with Arya reclaiming her sword Needle, which is the beginning of her.. well, redemption may not be the right word, but maybe revenge arc.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2014, 05:04:58 pm »
0

Dany will end up on the throne, one of the Starks ruling the north after an agreement that the dragons can fight the big monsters coming to turn the ride of the battle.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2014, 05:29:57 pm »
0

Further regarding Stannis
Well, I wouldn't consider being sacrificed due to most likely misinterepreted phrophecies fair treatment. There are many people I guess would be better kings, though none of them are in a good position to get that job and they're probably not even interested in it. I don't see how the average lord would be worse than Stannis.

I admit that he has to work on that nasty tendency of his to burn people alive to make other people die, but I believe that Davos can reign that in. He's also the guy who went and defended the Wall when asked, that counts for something. And the problem with random lords is that they don't have a claim to the throne, which comes with its own set of problems.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2014, 06:10:52 pm »
0

Man, as far as who I'd like to see end up on the throne, I don't know. None of the prospective kings or queens are that appealing to me, I'd say my favorite characters are Varys and Jaime, although now that Tywin is gone ge is the only Lannister I root for), so maybe I should root for this Aegon fellow - fake or not.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2014, 11:54:15 am »
0

The psychiatrist is dead, but like the other dead people the kid talks to, he hasn't realized he's dead yet.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2014, 11:57:29 am »
+1

Man, as far as who I'd like to see end up on the throne, I don't know. None of the prospective kings or queens are that appealing to me, I'd say my favorite characters are Varys and Jaime, although now that Tywin is gone ge is the only Lannister I root for), so maybe I should root for this Aegon fellow - fake or not.

So Aegon is most assuredly fake, but he'd still probably be the best ruler for the kingdom.  He was basically raised for this job. Given that, he's all but guaranteed to die~

My favorite character is Arya.  I like Tyrion and Jaime too.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2014, 03:09:53 pm »
0

I'm still waiting for the Eyrie to be impregnated.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2014, 08:58:30 pm »
+1

This might also belong in the random thread.  But it definitely belonged here.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/anthropocene/cgi-bin/wordpress/game-of-thrones-geology/
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2014, 09:08:00 pm »
+1

http://quartermaester.info/

This made grasping the geography much easier for me. It's also incredibly cool.

edit: I guess it would be internet-polite to also tell you guys what it is. It's an interactive map, showing every character's journey through chapters/episodes. Tons of fun!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 09:33:49 pm by Eevee »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2014, 12:23:59 pm »
0

This might also belong in the random thread.  But it definitely belonged here.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/anthropocene/cgi-bin/wordpress/game-of-thrones-geology/

I always imagine Bravos (and the continent on which it resides) to be much further north than that, even though I know it isn't.  I think because of the way the maps are presented in the books.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 12:39:10 pm by Witherweaver »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2014, 12:36:17 pm »
+1

Cool sporcle where you need to identify characters by the path they take in the books: http://www.sporcle.com/games/Michiel/asoiaf-characters-by-journey-slideshow
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2014, 12:51:42 pm »
+1

"Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?"
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2014, 03:35:25 pm »
0

Is there a reason to believe Joffrey's poison was really in Sansa's hair?
I don't really see what the point of bringing it in that way would be, and pretty much the only evidence is that Littlefinger says so.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2014, 03:38:32 pm »
0

Is there a reason to believe Joffrey's poison was really in Sansa's hair?
I don't really see what the point of bringing it in that way would be, and pretty much the only evidence is that Littlefinger says so.


It's in the necklace Dontos gives her, on the show. If you watch closely, you can see Olenna take it.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2014, 03:44:19 pm »
0

Is there a reason to believe Joffrey's poison was really in Sansa's hair?
I don't really see what the point of bringing it in that way would be, and pretty much the only evidence is that Littlefinger says so.


It was pretty clear I think.. she was given this necklace kind of out of the blue and suspiciously close to the wedding by someone obviously involved with Littlefinger.  During the feast, a specific point was made about Olenna talking with Sansa shortly before Joffery died.  There may even be something about her straightening the necklace/hair oranament/whatever.  I don't have the books on me right now. 

I'm assuming you're talking about in the books.  In the show, it's made to be even more obvious, as you can see one of the gems in Sansa's necklace missing and you can see when Olenna palms it

But yeah, I do wonder why it couldn't just be in someone's pocket or pouch.  Maybe they didn't want to carry it on them on the off chance they were somehow searched or something.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2014, 03:49:56 pm »
0

Well, I guess using Sansa let's them implicate her later if she doesn't run.  And if she does run, she looks guilty anyway.

And it was a hair net in the books.  I don't have the quote, but Olenna certainly adjusts it when talking to Sansa, shortly before Joffrey dies.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2014, 04:04:47 pm »
0

I guess if the Tyrells get searched, Sansa gets searched for sure. Developing a complex plot just for the trivial task of getting poison to a wedding seems doesn't really make sense, especially if that plan is much more likely to fail than just putting it in the Queen of Thorn's pocket (her having a new hairnet could cause suspicion, someone could notice she has poison gems in her hair, the QoT "stealing" a gem could easily be noticed...)
Littlefinger and all his lackeys and LF makes sure she thinks the QoT took a gem from her hairnet. He seems to want her to feel guilty. But if that's the point of it, there's no reason it needs to actually be true.
That only leaves the question what the QoT gets from having Sansa to feel guilty, or why she would agree to that part of LF's plan otherwise
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2014, 04:08:43 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure Littlefinger doesn't want to implicate Sansa. He has a creepy desire for her and he wants her in order to get power over the North
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2014, 04:18:50 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure Littlefinger doesn't want to implicate Sansa. He has a creepy desire for her and he wants her in order to get power over the North

Huh?  He knows her disappearing makes her look 100% guilty, and he orchestrated her escape.

But it's possible the Tyrrels had more influence over the plan than Littlefinger implies.  They could have chosen the hairnet method in case they needed to scapegoat Sansa.  Or Littlefinger could have agreed to or introduced the idea of the hairnet in order to placate the Tyrrels who thought Sansa would be implicated, while planning to take Sansa away without informing them.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 04:20:09 pm by Witherweaver »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2014, 04:35:22 pm »
0

What I meant to say was that LF doesn't want to implicate Sansa while she might potentially be captured. Once she escapes it doesn't matter, but I don't see him risk her being executed with the big plans he has for her. The point at which QoT allegedly takes the poison from Sansa's hairnet is long before the actual poisoning happens, and it's out in the yard, so a potential bag control would happen after that point. QoT would have enough time to get the poison from a less valuable courier if she needed one (like Dontos).
The Tyrells wanting to scapegoat Sansa doesn't make sense either, since "I took the poison from her hairnet, so it wasn't me" isn't a good excuse.
Also Dontos seems to be under LF's control, so I think LF orchestrated the plan.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2014, 04:40:46 pm »
0

What I meant to say was that LF doesn't want to implicate Sansa while she might potentially be captured. Once she escapes it doesn't matter, but I don't see him risk her being executed with the big plans he has for her. The point at which QoT allegedly takes the poison from Sansa's hairnet is long before the actual poisoning happens, and it's out in the yard, so a potential bag control would happen after that point. QoT would have enough time to get the poison from a less valuable courier if she needed one (like Dontos).
The Tyrells wanting to scapegoat Sansa doesn't make sense either, since "I took the poison from her hairnet, so it wasn't me" isn't a good excuse.
Also Dontos seems to be under LF's control, so I think LF orchestrated the plan.


Well, imagine the Tyrells didn't know that Sansa was going to escape.  Then at some point they can either accuse Sansa or get someone to poke around and look at her hairnet.  It's missing a gem, and testing would show that the gems are indeed crystallized poison.  Therefore, Sansa would look guilty, and her claiming that Olenna took it from her hairnet would not hold any weight.  Easy to deny by Olenna, impossible to prove by Sansa. Especially coming from Sansa who has every reason to hate Joffery, and who comes from a family that everyone hates.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2014, 04:41:52 pm »
0

This last string of spoilers is about the end of the third book and one PoV of the fifth book, if anyone is wondering.

Anyway, it struck me as needlessly contrived when I read that. There must certainly be easier ways to smuggle poison into the wedding banquet, not to mention that having Olenna poison the wine seems terribly risky, when she is in the top three most suspicious people in Cersei's feverish mind. Littlefinger could indeed be lying, he's patologically incapable of telling the truth, and this version of the events puts Sansa in a difficult situation, with LF as the only person she can trust. But then, if what he tells is a lie, what's the point of the hair net?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2014, 05:44:39 pm »
+1

The point of the hairnet would be to make Sansa think she's guilty, so he has a way to blackmail her. I'm pretty sure that's the point behin the hairnet thing. I guess it doesn't really matter wether the poison used was in the hairnet after al. Any theories to why the QoT would participate in making Sansa feel like she's involved?l
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2014, 05:49:50 pm »
0

The first 30 minutes of this weeks episode were just brutal. If its going to be like that every week, having read the books, I don't know how long I'll want to sit through it. It was so heAvy and draining.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2014, 05:49:57 pm »
0

The point of the hairnet would be to make Sansa think she's guilty, so he has a way to blackmail her. I'm pretty sure that's the point behin the hairnet thing. I guess it doesn't really matter wether the poison used was in the hairnet after al. Any theories to why the QoT would participate in making Sansa feel like she's involved?l

Yeah, that's possible, too.  But what is the benefit of that?  So that Sansa feels she needs to stay with Littlefinger?  It's not like she had a lot of options anyway.

But Olenna wants Joffery dead, so if Littlefinger has a way to do it, and this is his way, she may just go along with it.
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2014, 06:39:15 pm »
+1

The point of the hairnet would be to make Sansa think she's guilty, so he has a way to blackmail her. I'm pretty sure that's the point behin the hairnet thing. I guess it doesn't really matter wether the poison used was in the hairnet after al. Any theories to why the QoT would participate in making Sansa feel like she's involved?l

Yeah, that's possible, too.  But what is the benefit of that?  So that Sansa feels she needs to stay with Littlefinger?  It's not like she had a lot of options anyway.

But Olenna wants Joffery dead, so if Littlefinger has a way to do it, and this is his way, she may just go along with it.


Littlefinger is good at getting money and sewing chaos, not at interpersonal relationships. He feels Sansa is his, and does what he does to guarantee that she stays that way, in his own twisted way.

At that time, in King's Landing it was thought that Sansa was the only living child of Eddard Stark, and while the North and the Riverlands were technically under the rule of Roose Bolton and Walder Frey, I don't think anyone had any doubts about what the northern lords thougth about the Red Wedding and those that benefitted from it. So Sansa was extremely important at that time. There's a reason why Olenna wanted to marry her to her grandson. Failing that, making her feel like she's her accomplice in regicide could make her more docile when she gets to marry again after Tyrion is executed or whatever. She probably didn't know that LF planned to keep Sansa for himself.
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2014, 07:00:27 pm »
0

I guess it makes sense this way:
Littlefinger makes the QoT believe that they will blame Sansa for the murder due to her haing poison stones in her hairnet, but obviously doesn't plan to follow through on that. Still seems to be a bit risky to me, though, but maybe I'm overrating the chance that someone would notice the QoT stealing a gem from Sansa's hairnet[\spoiler]
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2014, 07:26:01 pm »
0

I guess it makes sense this way:
Littlefinger makes the QoT believe that they will blame Sansa for the murder due to her haing poison stones in her hairnet, but obviously doesn't plan to follow through on that. Still seems to be a bit risky to me, though, but maybe I'm overrating the chance that someone would notice the QoT stealing a gem from Sansa's hairnet[\spoiler]

I disagree with your notion that Olenna wanted to frame Sansa, when she knew she could easily manipulate her and use her as leverage against the Lannisters, and when everything was set up to frame Tyrion. Sure, things wouldn't have looked bright for Sansa after the assassination, but I think Tywin would have had the good sense to spare her if her involvement wasn't made obvious. Admittedly that's my opinion, but still.

Also how is stealing a gem from Sansa's hairnet, away from the focus of interest in the wedding, any more risky than actually dropping that gem in Joffrey's wine? For any level of skill the old woman could have, that's pretty brash. This scheme seems very contrived, either LF is disguising the truth in his favour, or it is a fabrication of his. Or GRRM HAD to have LF, QoT and Sansa implicated in the murder to move the plot forward, and that's the way he came up with, but that's not a very satisfying explanation.


Have you noticed you've got 1337 posts, Watno?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 07:53:59 pm by pacovf »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2014, 08:06:05 pm »
+1

I'm just a lowly show watcher so I can't really read or participate in this discussion, but I just watched the most recent episode and I wanted to say FUCK yeah die you little piece of shit!!!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2014, 12:30:07 am »
0

I've read the books, so it's fun to see you all theorizing. In reality (serous spoilers) Sansa had nothing to do with the murder. Neither did Little Finger. LF set-up a plan to help Sansa escape, because she reminds him of Catelynn. It is the Tyrells that murdered Jofferey because they knew he would be an awful king.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2014, 12:35:54 am »
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I've read the books, so it's fun to see you all theorizing. In reality (serous spoilers) Sansa had nothing to do with the murder. Neither did Little Finger. LF set-up a plan to help Sansa escape, because she reminds him of Catelynn. It is the Tyrells that murdered Jofferey because they knew he would be an awful king.

Uh.. are you sure?  We know Sansa was not knowingly involved, but Dontos gave her the hair net.  That implicates Littlefinger much more than the Tyrells.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2014, 12:43:30 am »
+1

I've read the books, so it's fun to see you all theorizing. In reality (serous spoilers) Sansa had nothing to do with the murder. Neither did Little Finger. LF set-up a plan to help Sansa escape, because she reminds him of Catelynn. It is the Tyrells that murdered Jofferey because they knew he would be an awful king.

I think most of the people theorizing have read the books. LF most definitely played a part in the murder. He planned for dontos to give sansa the poison in the hairnet. The question people are asking is WHY he and the QoT planned it this way, when it could have been a lot simpler.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2014, 02:17:21 am »
0

I'm just a lowly show watcher so I can't really read or participate in this discussion, but I just watched the most recent episode and I wanted to say FUCK yeah die you little piece of shit!!!

Just watched that toniiiiiiiigggghhhhhttttt.

And there was much rejoicing.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2014, 05:20:39 am »
0

After a careful rereading I find the blog  http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html very compelling.

In a nutshell, the series is based on Norse  mythology and will culminate in a war between the children of the forests and mankind, with most of the important surviving main characters fighting on the side of the Children against humanity.  Many assume Dany and her dragons and riders (song of fire) will be pitted against the Others (song of ice), but this blogger believes they will be on the same side along with Bran the Greenseer and the other Stark kids in second lives as Direwolves against humanity, whose forces will be lead by Jaime Lannister.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2014, 09:47:12 am »
0

I've read the books, so it's fun to see you all theorizing. In reality (serous spoilers) Sansa had nothing to do with the murder. Neither did Little Finger. LF set-up a plan to help Sansa escape, because she reminds him of Catelynn. It is the Tyrells that murdered Jofferey because they knew he would be an awful king.

I think most of the people theorizing have read the books. LF most definitely played a part in the murder. His wife has the hair net, he's getting humiliated, now everyone thinks he did it and LF can walk away freely.

Right, of course. Not sure why I said LF had nothing to do with it. The point of planning it this way to make it look like Tyrion did it. That way LF can walk away freely.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2014, 09:59:44 am »
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But noone even knows LF was in the proximity. Also the fact that the poison was allegedly in Sansa's hair is never revealed to the Lannisers I think. The hairnet thing is totally unnecessary in the plan to implicate Tyrion.
@pacovf I don't think the Tyrelsl had reason to hope to get Sansa under their control again after Tywin had married her to Tyrion.
Maybe the QoT didn't even put the poison in the wine, but Margeary put it in the cake. That would be a lot easier to do discreetly than ripping a stone out of someone's hairnet.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #81 on: April 21, 2014, 12:12:15 am »
0

Oberon is quickly becoming my favorite show character.  He was pretty cool in the books, but a lot less focus was on him (until the trial).  But in the show he's awesome in every moment he's on screen.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #82 on: April 21, 2014, 03:45:21 pm »
+1

Oberon is quickly becoming my favorite show character.  He was pretty cool in the books, but a lot less focus was on him (until the trial).  But in the show he's awesome in every moment he's on screen.

A lot of the side characters have more screen time, just because they are paying actors to be on the show. He doesn't really do much in the books. Even the trail is mostly just 1 chapter or 2.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #83 on: April 21, 2014, 06:56:26 pm »
0

So I don't necessarily want to start a big discussion about it (because man the internet has soured me on talking about Serious Things) but I've heard that the reason the director of this week's episode has that horrible tone-deaf quote about "I didn't film the scene as a rape scene" when that's obviously what it is is because D&D (showrunners) altered it in editing. Does anyone have a source for that?

I've read Martin's statement on the issue and it sounds like a whole lot of words that say nothing.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #84 on: April 21, 2014, 07:11:51 pm »
0

I didn't know that, but that would make sense. It is certainly a rape scene and very different from the book. Perhaps it was more in line with what happened in the book before the editing was made.

It's a weird change, and one I didn't really like. I haven't seen many defenders. It really takes Jaime down a peg as far as moral standing goes. I'm not sure why they would do that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #85 on: April 21, 2014, 07:31:46 pm »
0

I really don't like the way they've changed Jaime and his relationship with Cersei from the book. I'm also curious about the relationship between Snow and Thorne, seems very different from the books, but not necessarily worse. Show-wildlings seem harder to root for with how they showed their "raiding". Ygritte's death will be less sad this way I think. I never liked her in the books either though, so this isn't ruining an emotional death for me. The Thenns are absolutely terrifying, which really feels unnecessary when you think of their story line in the book this far. Just seems sort of show-offy that they go to those lengths to establish how horrible they are considering no other wildling group gets as much attention, and as far as I can tell all the Thenns do is represent how the free folk are all different and some don't get along that well. I didn't like the way they've changed the relationship between Stannis and Davos (whom I love as a character in both the books and the show). Stannis isn't being very kingly.

The last scene was super dramatic and very well done! On par with the birth of the dragons scene as far as favorite Daenarys scenes in the show go. That storyline from the books definitely needed improving too!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2014, 07:35:07 pm »
0

Also, what's up with Littlefinger's accent? I like that he has a distinct speaking rhythm, but he pronounces some words really oddly, which makes the whole accent seem fake.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2014, 07:36:44 pm »
0

edit: this should be in spoilers, sorry!

I'm not digging the Sam-Gilly storyline at all. I fear we'll have to suffer Tyrion-Shae level of horribleness for the near future, ugh.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #88 on: April 22, 2014, 05:34:47 pm »
+1

I'm not really bothered by most of the changes in the show, except: Where the hell is Moonboy!?!?!

We need Moonboy on screen, because I NEED to hear Tyrion say "she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleback and probably Moon Boy for all I know." :( Single most looked-foward-to line in the books.  Well, that and hearing Charles Dance say "Wherever whores go."  I can't wait for that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #89 on: April 23, 2014, 06:49:17 pm »
+1

Biggest concern with the changes to Tommen: WILL WE GET SER POUNCE? INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW.
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jonts26

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2014, 01:26:36 am »
+4

Biggest concern with the changes to Tommen: WILL WE GET SER POUNCE? INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW.

THE POUNCE THAT WAS PROMISED
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2014, 01:29:01 am »
0

Biggest concern with the changes to Tommen: WILL WE GET SER POUNCE? INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW.

Agreed! They made him too old! Now fawning over kittens will just be weird*

*I am 26, and when my brother brought three kittens with him to visit me last weekend, I fawned.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2014, 12:48:00 pm »
0

edit: this should be in spoilers, sorry!

I'm not digging the Sam-Gilly storyline at all. I fear we'll have to suffer Tyrion-Shae level of horribleness for the near future, ugh.

Sam's storyline is short in book 4. Gilly is present but this takes nowhere as much presence as Tyrion and Shae (In fact I don't even remember it really being super important). After the baby swap Gilly is essentailly just sad the whole time. Book 5 Sam doesn't appear at all except at the very beginning where it overlaps with book 4.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2014, 01:15:07 pm »
0

edit: this should be in spoilers, sorry!

I'm not digging the Sam-Gilly storyline at all. I fear we'll have to suffer Tyrion-Shae level of horribleness for the near future, ugh.

Sam's storyline is short in book 4. Gilly is present but this takes nowhere as much presence as Tyrion and Shae (In fact I don't even remember it really being super important). After the baby swap Gilly is essentailly just sad the whole time. Book 5 Sam doesn't appear at all except at the very beginning where it overlaps with book 4.
Yes, but the showrunners seem strangely intent on shoving terrible romance down our throats. I don't understand what they are doing with Shae.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2014, 01:23:25 pm »
0

edit: this should be in spoilers, sorry!

I'm not digging the Sam-Gilly storyline at all. I fear we'll have to suffer Tyrion-Shae level of horribleness for the near future, ugh.

Sam's storyline is short in book 4. Gilly is present but this takes nowhere as much presence as Tyrion and Shae (In fact I don't even remember it really being super important). After the baby swap Gilly is essentailly just sad the whole time. Book 5 Sam doesn't appear at all except at the very beginning where it overlaps with book 4.
Yes, but the showrunners seem strangely intent on shoving terrible romance down our throats. I don't understand what they are doing with Shae.

But to be fair that was a big deal in the books too. Much of book 2 was Tyrion trying to keep her a secret and visiting her. I don't think GRRM will let them make it too important. After all he is pretty involved in the making of the show.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2014, 01:27:09 pm »
0

edit: this should be in spoilers, sorry!

I'm not digging the Sam-Gilly storyline at all. I fear we'll have to suffer Tyrion-Shae level of horribleness for the near future, ugh.

Sam's storyline is short in book 4. Gilly is present but this takes nowhere as much presence as Tyrion and Shae (In fact I don't even remember it really being super important). After the baby swap Gilly is essentailly just sad the whole time. Book 5 Sam doesn't appear at all except at the very beginning where it overlaps with book 4.
Yes, but the showrunners seem strangely intent on shoving terrible romance down our throats. I don't understand what they are doing with Shae.

But to be fair that was a big deal in the books too. Much of book 2 was Tyrion trying to keep her a secret and visiting her. I don't think GRRM will let them make it too important. After all he is pretty involved in the making of the show.
Oh I'm not referring to screen time. I'm referring to her turning down diamonds and generally being portrayed as a good girl and the victim. Shae's betrayal was a huge reason for Tyrion going down the dark path he did. Seems a lock he didn't really get on that ship, but they are still making her a completely different from the books as far as I can tell, and I'm worried how that will affect Tyrions arc.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2014, 01:31:30 pm »
0

edit: this should be in spoilers, sorry!

I'm not digging the Sam-Gilly storyline at all. I fear we'll have to suffer Tyrion-Shae level of horribleness for the near future, ugh.

Sam's storyline is short in book 4. Gilly is present but this takes nowhere as much presence as Tyrion and Shae (In fact I don't even remember it really being super important). After the baby swap Gilly is essentailly just sad the whole time. Book 5 Sam doesn't appear at all except at the very beginning where it overlaps with book 4.
Yes, but the showrunners seem strangely intent on shoving terrible romance down our throats. I don't understand what they are doing with Shae.

But to be fair that was a big deal in the books too. Much of book 2 was Tyrion trying to keep her a secret and visiting her. I don't think GRRM will let them make it too important. After all he is pretty involved in the making of the show.
Oh I'm not referring to screen time. I'm referring to her turning down diamonds and generally being portrayed as a good girl and the victim. Shae's betrayal was a huge reason for Tyrion going down the dark path he did. Seems a lock he didn't really get on that ship, but they are still making her a completely different from the books as far as I can tell, and I'm worried how that will affect Tyrions arc.

Hmmm, well the way I saw it was that he was being played by her. He stayed because he though she loved him, but in in fact she didn't, she just wanted money, which we learn when he finds her sleeping with his father. Tyrions arc won't change because he will still be blamed for Joff's murder and he'll still escape, be on the boat to the free cities, be captured as a slave etc...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 01:52:34 pm by KingZog3 »
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2014, 01:39:53 pm »
0

I'm assuming Tyrions arc will be the same.  Shae will be back and testify against him, and it will tear him up even more because he has more reason to believe she's sincere (turning down the diamonds, crying, etc.)).  They can't take out him killing Shae in Tywin's bed, because that's so crucial to his development.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2014, 01:40:44 pm »
0

King you should probably spoiler tag that.
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KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #99 on: April 24, 2014, 01:53:16 pm »
0

King you should probably spoiler tag that.

Yeah, I did. I forgot when I was writing it. Nobody saw that!!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #100 on: April 24, 2014, 02:09:51 pm »
0

King you should probably spoiler tag that.

Yeah, I did. I forgot when I was writing it. Nobody saw that!!

I feel like people who want to avoid spoilers will just avoid this thread...
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #101 on: April 24, 2014, 02:13:10 pm »
0

King you should probably spoiler tag that.

Yeah, I did. I forgot when I was writing it. Nobody saw that!!

I feel like people who want to avoid spoilers will just avoid this thread...

Yeah, but being careful is good.  Plus there is ambiguity between show spoilers and book spoilers.  And, well, we've all been using the tags :)
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #102 on: April 24, 2014, 02:18:35 pm »
0

I think it's fine not to use Spoiler tags for show spoilers. But use them for like book spoilers, maybe? I don't know, is there anyone in this thread who watches the show but hasn't read the books?
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #103 on: April 24, 2014, 02:19:53 pm »
0

There could also, in theory, be people that have read the books but haven't yet watched the show, and they don't want to be spoiled with how the show makes changes ... for some reason.

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KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #104 on: April 24, 2014, 02:22:10 pm »
0

King you should probably spoiler tag that.

Yeah, I did. I forgot when I was writing it. Nobody saw that!!

I feel like people who want to avoid spoilers will just avoid this thread...

Yeah, but being careful is good.  Plus there is ambiguity between show spoilers and book spoilers.  And, well, we've all been using the tags :)

It is good to be careful, but anyone who is shocked when they see spoilers in this thread is either an idiot, or illiterate.
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #105 on: April 24, 2014, 02:51:17 pm »
0

King you should probably spoiler tag that.

Yeah, I did. I forgot when I was writing it. Nobody saw that!!

I feel like people who want to avoid spoilers will just avoid this thread...

Yeah, but being careful is good.  Plus there is ambiguity between show spoilers and book spoilers.  And, well, we've all been using the tags :)

It is good to be careful, but anyone who is shocked when they see spoilers in this thread is either an idiot, or illiterate.

I think Awaclus signature is relevant here.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9117.msg279810#msg279810
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 03:40:53 pm by pacovf »
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Awaclus

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #106 on: April 24, 2014, 06:03:21 pm »
+2

King you should probably spoiler tag that.

Yeah, I did. I forgot when I was writing it. Nobody saw that!!

I feel like people who want to avoid spoilers will just avoid this thread...

Yeah, but being careful is good.  Plus there is ambiguity between show spoilers and book spoilers.  And, well, we've all been using the tags :)

It is good to be careful, but anyone who is shocked when they see spoilers in this thread is either an idiot, or illiterate.

I think Awaclus signature is relevant here.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9117.msg279810#msg279810
Really? I think we might have just entered an infinite loop.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 06:07:39 pm by Awaclus »
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Grujah

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #107 on: April 29, 2014, 04:51:32 am »
0

I didn't know that, but that would make sense. It is certainly a rape scene and very different from the book. Perhaps it was more in line with what happened in the book before the editing was made.

It's a weird change, and one I didn't really like. I haven't seen many defenders. It really takes Jaime down a peg as far as moral standing goes. I'm not sure why they would do that.

Weird, it's quite opposite here, most people I talked with here (including female friends) agree that whole "rape scene" thing is quite overblown.


On yesterday's episode, I don't get why so many changes. Sigh.
Also White Walkers thing was ... a huge WTF moment.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #108 on: April 29, 2014, 05:18:56 am »
0

I think it's fine not to use Spoiler tags for show spoilers. But use them for like book spoilers, maybe? I don't know, is there anyone in this thread who watches the show but hasn't read the books?

For the record, I haven't read the books and recently started watching the show. But I'm not really following the thread, so it doesn't matter.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 05:38:10 am by Jimmmmm »
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #109 on: April 29, 2014, 09:13:20 am »
0

SER POUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNCE
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #110 on: April 29, 2014, 09:28:54 am »
0

I didn't know that, but that would make sense. It is certainly a rape scene and very different from the book. Perhaps it was more in line with what happened in the book before the editing was made.

It's a weird change, and one I didn't really like. I haven't seen many defenders. It really takes Jaime down a peg as far as moral standing goes. I'm not sure why they would do that.

Weird, it's quite opposite here, most people I talked with here (including female friends) agree that whole "rape scene" thing is quite overblown.


On yesterday's episode, I don't get why so many changes. Sigh.
Also White Walkers thing was ... a huge WTF moment.

I was actually excited to see something where I actually did not know what was going on.
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Grujah

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #111 on: April 29, 2014, 10:21:50 am »
0

SER POUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNCE

I was afraid they were going to cut him and his friends. Luckily they didn't.

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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #112 on: April 29, 2014, 10:37:10 am »
0

SER POUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNCE

I was afraid they were going to cut him and his friends. Luckily they didn't.

I started laughing when he first said "Sir Pounce?!"  My first thought was that Voltaire is going to be so happy.  I then had this weird fleeting thought that they quickly edited that scene in after the public uproar from suspicions of Sir Pounce getting cut after the previous week's episode.
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Grujah

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #113 on: April 29, 2014, 10:52:14 am »
+1

Heard a good one today:

"Now the book readers should stop watching the show to avoid the spoilers. Oh, the irony".
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KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #114 on: April 29, 2014, 10:55:49 am »
0

Heard a good one today:

"Now the book readers should stop watching the show to avoid the spoilers. Oh, the irony".

Probably because if they didn't read book 5, then there will be spoilers since those two books will happen at the same time in the show.
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Grujah

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #115 on: April 29, 2014, 10:57:29 am »
0

No, it's the Others thing.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #116 on: April 29, 2014, 10:58:22 am »
+1

Oh, and on the subject of changes in episode 4:

I'm a bit wary of it.  I think there are a few things going on.  First, I think Jon came back to Castle Black a lot earlier than in the books, so they probably need another story arc to time the big battle correctly.  Secondly, having Bran interact with people we've seen before gives viewers some more perspective of what's going on with him and where he is.  Maybe they thought it was important for people to have a picture in their head of where Bran actually is, instead of having him entirely disconnected from everyone else.  In the books it feels like he travels forever and ever, and I didn't really have any idea of where he ever was.. it just seemed like really far north.

I think the biggest concern is Bran/Jon meeting.  I guess Bran could convince Jon that his quest is necessary, but I think them meeting at this point, and Jon letting Bran go, is going to seem really weird.  I think the best thing to happen would be for  Jon and his party to attack Craster's, there big a big battle between, and having Bran and co. escape in the mayhem without Jon or anyone else seeing him.

I'm not too concerned with the changes in Meereen.  Dany's storyline feels like it's moving faster than in the books, which I think is good.  I wonder if we're going to start meeting some people traveling towards her, or if we're going to meet them next season when they're well on route.  Though they may be cutting some... unlike many people, I liked Quentin and enjoyed his tragic arc.  It as just so Martin, to have this young idealistic prince with an actual valid solution to the problem at hand (Dorn backing Dany could probably get her the throne), come and fail so horribly.  Especially with all the prophecy buildup that we're expecting someone else to be able to ride her other two dragons.  Tyrion I'm guessing will come to Dany the same way, and probably meet Aegon and Cottington on the way.

Which brings me to the Greyjoys.  I'm concerned we never saw Balon die.  Or heard about it.  It's still likely to happen as Stannis burned a leech, but I'm wondering why it's taking so long.  Maybe they're going to do more on the Iron Islands in the latter half of the season.  If Balon dies later on, they can introduce Euron and Victarion (and Aeron) at that point.  They can cut out the Queensmoot stuff and just have Euron come in for a quick takeover. I hope they don't cut Victarion and Euron, as I feel they're going to become pretty important.  Thought, they're not really my favorite characters.

It felt like Locke got to Castle Black really fast.  I guess he had good horses and you can travel quickly alone.  Also.. shouldn't Stannis have left by now?  Every time I see him I think he should be gone.. especially when Davos read him the letter at the end of last season.  In the books it seemed like Stannis was convinced to leave right away.. and in the show it seemed like he was convinced too.  I keep wondering what's going to convince him to leave.

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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #117 on: April 29, 2014, 12:36:32 pm »
0

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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #118 on: April 29, 2014, 12:53:21 pm »
0

My thoughts on the latest episode, if anyone is interested: http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/28/game-of-thrones-review-even-diehard-fans-were-shocked-to-meet-this-monster/

I like the point about highlighting Dany's ruthlessness and comparing it with the likes of her father, Joffrey, and Cersei.  She's often seen as "the good guy" of the story, but she's actually very brutal and causing all kinds of turmoil.  (Though she does have a moral ground.)   The Ice/Fire duality is also relevant here, as even though Dany represents Fire, she in many ways acts like Ice in her hard, emotionless, and calculating judgement.  The Mad King, Joffrey, and Cersei, on the other hand, were much more like Fire; they would act spontaneously, fueled by wild emotions.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #119 on: April 29, 2014, 04:43:32 pm »
+1


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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #120 on: April 30, 2014, 03:12:09 pm »
0

No, it's the Others thing.
Just found out it's even worse than I thought: You might not want to click this even if you have read all the books and watched the show

Also I found some things in that last episode quite strange
Why the hell is there a Slave General assembly in Mereen where they discuss making a revolt or not. Especially after Daenerys has encouraged them to do that, shouldn't the Masters have a closer eye on them?
Also, I don't see the timelines matching up well with Jon and Bran

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #121 on: April 30, 2014, 03:21:19 pm »
0

In response to the thing about the Others that Watno posted:

I don't think that means that the White Walker guy who converts the baby is necessarily the same Night's King from the fairy tale. HBO might have just decided to give the character a name that was familiar to book fans. It might even just be a stand-in name. Or it could be that the current leader of the Others is always called "the Night's King."
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Twistedarcher

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #122 on: May 04, 2014, 10:08:17 pm »
0

Spoiler from this week's episode

So Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn? I thought we already saw Cersei/Pycelle saying they did this?
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #123 on: May 04, 2014, 10:12:16 pm »
0

Spoiler from this week's episode

So Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn? I thought we already saw Cersei/Pycelle saying they did this?

I think they only hinted that Pycelle knew of the poison used.  It was Littlefinger's plan to increase Stark/Lannister tension.  He implicated the Lannisters in Jon Arryn's death and in Bran's fall.  He pretty much knew that Ned's sense of honor would do the rest.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #124 on: May 04, 2014, 10:15:05 pm »
0

Weird, I guess I just glossed over the passage in the Storm of Swords where that conversation happened. I was sure it was Cersei, but apparently I was wrong.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #125 on: May 04, 2014, 10:38:16 pm »
0

Weird, I guess I just glossed over the passage in the Storm of Swords where that conversation happened. I was sure it was Cersei, but apparently I was wrong.

Oh, I see.  It was Clash of Kings, not Storm of Swords.. page 412:

"Yes," he whimpered, "yes, Colemon was purging, so I sent him away.  The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew.  It was not me who gave him the poison, though, I swear it."  The old man wept.  "Varys will tell you, it was the boy, his squire, Hugh he was called, he must surely have done it, ask your sister, ask her."

Here Pycelle is admitting to letting Jon Arryn die instead of treating him for the poison.  (Read before that, Tyrion accuses him of not trying to save Jon Arryn's life.)  But he doesn't know who gave the poison.  He was assuming it was at the behest of Cercei.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #126 on: May 04, 2014, 11:52:30 pm »
0

Yup, that was my confusion. I don't have the passage, but apparently in Storm of Swords, Chapter 80 (Sansa's viewpoint), a similar conversation happened to the one in tonight's episode, where Lysa admitted poisoning Jon to LF.
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KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #127 on: May 05, 2014, 12:40:14 am »
0

Yup, that was my confusion. I don't have the passage, but apparently in Storm of Swords, Chapter 80 (Sansa's viewpoint), a similar conversation happened to the one in tonight's episode, where Lysa admitted poisoning Jon to LF.

That happened, but I think that was in Feast for Crows. You don't see Lysa till then.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #128 on: May 05, 2014, 09:12:21 am »
0

Yup, that was my confusion. I don't have the passage, but apparently in Storm of Swords, Chapter 80 (Sansa's viewpoint), a similar conversation happened to the one in tonight's episode, where Lysa admitted poisoning Jon to LF.

That happened, but I think that was in Feast for Crows. You don't see Lysa till then.

Seriously big spoiler: No, TA was right. Lysa dies at the end of Storm of Swords!
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #129 on: May 05, 2014, 10:10:40 am »
0

Yup, that was my confusion. I don't have the passage, but apparently in Storm of Swords, Chapter 80 (Sansa's viewpoint), a similar conversation happened to the one in tonight's episode, where Lysa admitted poisoning Jon to LF.

That happened, but I think that was in Feast for Crows. You don't see Lysa till then.

Seriously big spoiler: No, TA was right. Lysa dies at the end of Storm of Swords!

Speaking of which, why no singer?  Think he'll be introduced later, or will they use someone else?
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KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #130 on: May 05, 2014, 11:13:28 am »
0

Yup, that was my confusion. I don't have the passage, but apparently in Storm of Swords, Chapter 80 (Sansa's viewpoint), a similar conversation happened to the one in tonight's episode, where Lysa admitted poisoning Jon to LF.

That happened, but I think that was in Feast for Crows. You don't see Lysa till then.

Seriously big spoiler: No, TA was right. Lysa dies at the end of Storm of Swords!

Oh yeah. I remember now.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #131 on: May 05, 2014, 11:28:27 am »
0

Yup, that was my confusion. I don't have the passage, but apparently in Storm of Swords, Chapter 80 (Sansa's viewpoint), a similar conversation happened to the one in tonight's episode, where Lysa admitted poisoning Jon to LF.

That happened, but I think that was in Feast for Crows. You don't see Lysa till then.

Seriously big spoiler: No, TA was right. Lysa dies at the end of Storm of Swords!

I was waiting for this to happen last night.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #132 on: May 05, 2014, 11:38:19 am »
0

Yup, that was my confusion. I don't have the passage, but apparently in Storm of Swords, Chapter 80 (Sansa's viewpoint), a similar conversation happened to the one in tonight's episode, where Lysa admitted poisoning Jon to LF.

That happened, but I think that was in Feast for Crows. You don't see Lysa till then.

Seriously big spoiler: No, TA was right. Lysa dies at the end of Storm of Swords!

I was waiting for this to happen last night.

I was afraid they were going to; it would have been too rushed.  It would have been funny, though.. Lysa is like "Let's get married right NOW".  And Petyr is like "sure, sure, honey.. *PUSH*". 

Side note, Lysa is annoying as hell, but the portrayal is really good.  I really like the portrayal of Littlefinger, too, though everyone seems to complain about him.  His face when she was confessing to everything was just great.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #133 on: May 05, 2014, 11:52:31 am »
0

This was definitely one of Littlefinger's best episodes to date.

Her going out the door is likely in Episode 7
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #134 on: May 06, 2014, 01:09:22 pm »
+1

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Kirian

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #135 on: May 14, 2014, 05:38:35 pm »
+1

http://imgur.com/a/GZYp6

Crossposting to the Hearthstone thread of course...
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #136 on: May 19, 2014, 10:16:05 am »
0

What's up with waiting two weeks?  Fearing low ratings from a Holiday weekend or something?

Also, very sastisfying to see Lysa fly.  I really did want to hear the words, "Only Cat", though "Only your sister" is perhaps more insulting.  I don't get bothered too much by changes from the book. I think the show is doing an excellent job.  But there are a few lines from the series that stuck with me, so I would really like to hear them said in a visual and dramatic setting (e.g., "Only Cat," "Wherever whores go," Tyrion's line to Jamie about Lancel and Kettleback and Moonboy).  I also wonder if we're going to get to hear Brienne searching for a maid of ten and three. I'm not sure how much that story line is going to change.. looks like it's still going along the same path.  I think in the books she runs into Gendry instead of Hotpie, but I don't think Gendry tipped her off about Arya?  I don't have the books handy at the moment. But it's looking like The Hound's bite is taking the place of the (knife?) wound he got in the books, and Arya will leave him for dead in the next few episodes.  We may get to see Brienne go to the monk's place and see/hear about Gravedigger as well.

Also, Oberyn, so great.  I like that actor a lot.  The scene with Tyrion in the dungeon was one of the best in the series so far, I think.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #137 on: May 19, 2014, 10:24:43 am »
0

Oh yeah, and minor things:

Sansa's hair should be dyed, she should not be wearing Tully blue, and I guess they're going to claim Lysa just fell?  Or committed suicide?  Or will he still somehow construct someone to take the fall?
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Eevee

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #138 on: May 19, 2014, 12:12:06 pm »
0

The actor playing Oberyn is doing one hell of a job. That scene with Tyrion was one of the strongest in the entire series this far, just wow.

I too have a few smaller nitpicks, I didn't like the way the presented snow Winterfell (needed more screen time, and the scene didn't really feel natural or magical the way it did in the books) , why would they not include "Cat, only Cat"???, they really ought to be more protecting of Sansa's true identity, and The Mountain being recast twice isn't optimal (+the scene of him hacking random peasants to pieces was a bit stupid).. but, overall, I really enjoyed the episode, one of the strongest of the season.


Can't wait for "You are going to fight that?" Too bad it's a two week wait!
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Eevee

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #139 on: May 19, 2014, 12:14:10 pm »
0

What's up with waiting two weeks?  Fearing low ratings from a Holiday weekend or something?

Also, very sastisfying to see Lysa fly.  I really did want to hear the words, "Only Cat", though "Only your sister" is perhaps more insulting.  I don't get bothered too much by changes from the book. I think the show is doing an excellent job.  But there are a few lines from the series that stuck with me, so I would really like to hear them said in a visual and dramatic setting (e.g., "Only Cat," "Wherever whores go," Tyrion's line to Jamie about Lancel and Kettleback and Moonboy).  I also wonder if we're going to get to hear Brienne searching for a maid of ten and three. I'm not sure how much that story line is going to change.. looks like it's still going along the same path.  I think in the books she runs into Gendry instead of Hotpie, but I don't think Gendry tipped her off about Arya?  I don't have the books handy at the moment. But it's looking like The Hound's bite is taking the place of the (knife?) wound he got in the books, and Arya will leave him for dead in the next few episodes.  We may get to see Brienne go to the monk's place and see/hear about Gravedigger as well.

Also, Oberyn, so great.  I like that actor a lot.  The scene with Tyrion in the dungeon was one of the best in the series so far, I think.
No, I don't think they discussed Arya. The Hot Pie - Brienne scene was an example of a nice invention by the showrunners, though. It'll be interesting to see how they portray Arya leaving The Hound to die given how they are deepening their friendship with seemingly random scenes every episode. Maisie Williams is an incredible actor, the Braavos stuff is going to be awesome.
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #140 on: May 19, 2014, 02:30:41 pm »
0

This was my favorite episode in several weeks, probably since the Purple Wedding. As strong as Peter Dinklage's acting was during the trial, I think he outdid himself this week! The scene with Bronn was touching, and the scene with Oberyn was one of the best in the series.

I also enjoyed all the Hound and Arya stuff.

Spoilers and speculation:
The producers have given Shireen much more to do than in the books, and I was really wondering whether this might signal that Shireen will ultimately sit the throne with Davos as her hand after Stannis like wins but dies in battle along with Melisandre, or something (knowing, as we do, that Martin has told the producers the ending). After last night, I'm worried they are giving Shireen more screen time so we can get to like her a lot before Melisandre and Selyse burn her alive. I really hope that doesn't happen!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #141 on: May 19, 2014, 02:56:05 pm »
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I really really got the vibe Melissandre intends to use Shireen's king's blood somehow. The scene felt really ominous, and also long and otherwise meaningless enough to strongly hint that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #142 on: May 19, 2014, 02:57:32 pm »
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Yeah, Oberyn/Tyrion was great, and I really liked that dialog in the books too. I also don't like that there is no "Only Cat" nor Marillion (and his singing..).

But next episode, that one is going to take the cake, as it features one of the awesomer scene is the books, namely:
EEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 02:59:17 pm by Grujah »
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #143 on: May 19, 2014, 03:00:14 pm »
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I think I should pick up the series again, I am getting curious about this Oberyn-Tyrion scene everyone is raving about so much.

After last night, I'm worried they are giving Shireen more screen time so we can get to like her a lot before Melisandre and Selyse burn her alive. I really hope that doesn't happen!

I really hope this is a bad case of epileptic trees. Do we have any prior indication of Selyse caring that little for her child? She doesn't seem like the motherly kind, but maaaaaaaan, that's cold.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #144 on: May 19, 2014, 03:01:15 pm »
0

I really really got the vibe Melissandre intends to use Shireen's king's blood somehow. The scene felt really ominous, and also long and otherwise meaningless enough to strongly hint that.

Recall also that in A Dance with Dragons, Shireen was highlighted a lot in Melisandre's PoV thoughts.
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #145 on: May 19, 2014, 03:03:32 pm »
0

I think I should pick up the series again, I am getting curious about this Oberyn-Tyrion scene everyone is raving about so much.

After last night, I'm worried they are giving Shireen more screen time so we can get to like her a lot before Melisandre and Selyse burn her alive. I really hope that doesn't happen!

I really hope this is a bad case of epileptic trees. Do we have any prior indication of Selyse caring that little for her child? She doesn't seem like the motherly kind, but maaaaaaaan, that's cold.

I mean, she definitely wouldn't do it lightly, but she DID let Melisandre burn her brother. I'm positive Stannis wouldn't allow it under any circumstance, but he might not find out until it's too late.
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #146 on: May 19, 2014, 04:04:01 pm »
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Her brother had been found guilty of treason and hence sullied (even more than it already was) the name of their family! Sure, burning him alive is barbaric retribution, but she's a zealot. Shireen's only crime is to have survived greyscale!

I don't really see Melisandre burning her, not in a way that makes her seem responsible though, there's no way Stannis would let her stay after pulling out something like this behind his back.
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #147 on: May 19, 2014, 08:04:31 pm »
0

Finally caught up in this series--started a few months ago--after having read the books that are out about two years ago.

I would say that the thing I like the most about the series is the quality in the secondary characters. Obviously the leads are going to be pretty good--some glaring exceptions here--but it is really those secondary characters that make this show amazing. Maester Luwin, Littlefinger, Varys!, The Hound, Meera Reed (not Jojen), all of the Tyrells (especially Margaery!), Ramsey Snow!, Prince Oberyn--finally we got to see some Dornish, can't wait to finally see Dorne--and on and on. A lot of that has to do with the in depth writing on these secondary and even tertiary characters, but the actors are superb as well.

Also going back to the very first episode, was I the only one that was completely hooked by the opening credit sequence? I know some people criticize it, but I thought it was a perfect way to introduce the geography and general tone for the story.

I either haven't noticed--its been a while since reading--or haven't minded the deviations from the book.

Anyways, thought I would jump into the thread so I can see what others think...
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KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #148 on: May 19, 2014, 08:13:46 pm »
0


I either haven't noticed--its been a while since reading--or haven't minded the deviations from the book.


The changes are mostly to make it fit TV format better. Fewer minor characters, a couple changes. Nothing too major. GRRM is part of writing the show, so I think he makes sure it's all pretty close to the books.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #149 on: May 19, 2014, 08:16:44 pm »
0


I either haven't noticed--its been a while since reading--or haven't minded the deviations from the book.


The changes are mostly to make it fit TV format better. Fewer minor characters, a couple changes. Nothing too major. GRRM is part of writing the show, so I think he makes sure it's all pretty close to the books.

Yes and no, though mostly no. He writes one episode a season, and gave them a rough sketch of the ending, and occasionally gives them creative "hints" (ie don't kill off that secondary character who is still alive in the books! They turn out to be pretty important in the future!), but they ignore/change/alter as they see fit. They've killed a character we think is minor he's hinted may matter.

As far as big changes, that's all D&D (the screenwriters) adapting for TV/what they think are the important elements.
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Grujah

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #150 on: May 19, 2014, 09:05:26 pm »
+2

Also going back to the very first episode, was I the only one that was completely hooked by the opening credit sequence? I know some people criticize it, but I thought it was a perfect way to introduce the geography and general tone for the story.

Somebody criticized it? Huh?

I am pretty sure it is generally very well liked for its awesomeness.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 09:14:49 pm by Grujah »
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Twistedarcher

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #151 on: May 19, 2014, 09:12:51 pm »
+1

Braavos looks so cool. I'm excited for more storylines there.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #152 on: June 02, 2014, 01:14:06 am »
+2

Tonight's episode affected me more than the Red Wedding. As a book reader, I knew both were coming. The Red Wedding was more of a, can't wait to see how it comes across on-screen. The duel was, well, I was at least hoping they'd capture the spirit of it.

And they did, almost too well. Tonight's episode was amazing, not in a "fun" way, but in a powerful way. I feel physically ill. It is rare for any story, book, television, or otherwise, to affect me like this, and I'm trying to figure out why. I think something about this specific moment stripped away the desensitization towards violence I feel (and we all feel) in most stories. Seeing and hearing Alarya's (sp) reaction was powerful.

Damn this story.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #153 on: June 02, 2014, 08:52:08 am »
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Holy shit.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #154 on: June 02, 2014, 09:24:05 am »
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That seems to be the general reaction: I knew it was going to happen, but my god I still feel sick
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #155 on: June 02, 2014, 09:35:10 am »
0

Tonight's episode affected me more than the Red Wedding. As a book reader, I knew both were coming. The Red Wedding was more of a, can't wait to see how it comes across on-screen. The duel was, well, I was at least hoping they'd capture the spirit of it.

And they did, almost too well. Tonight's episode was amazing, not in a "fun" way, but in a powerful way. I feel physically ill. It is rare for any story, book, television, or otherwise, to affect me like this, and I'm trying to figure out why. I think something about this specific moment stripped away the desensitization towards violence I feel (and we all feel) in most stories. Seeing and hearing Alarya's (sp) reaction was powerful.

Damn this story.


This is very apt I think.  I left last night's episode without that feeling of awe or amazement, but more feeling disturbed and sickly.  I actually rewatched it 11:30 because I was cooking/eating during the first airing, and the second time I was just as disturbed as the first.  I felt this sense of horror and sadness at watching Oberyn die.  Especially hearing him scream as his eyes were getting crushed in, and hearing Ellaria scream.. it was all very horrible.  I had to turn away the second time.

Plus I was sad because the characterization of Oberyn was just so, so good.

In other news... what's the point of the development between Grey Worm and Missandei?  Do they just want Grey Worm to be a fuller character than in the books?

Development with Sansa was interesting.  I had assumed that Petyr and her worked her thing out together, but it being her idea gives her a lot more development with becoming politically savvy and playing the game.
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yuma

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #156 on: June 02, 2014, 01:12:04 pm »
0



Also, the brief scene with Arya bursting into laughter was brilliant! Although I am getting antsy for her to go to Bravvos.

Everything else had too little screen time to be super compelling. Felt like the ultimate catch everyone up to date (except for Stannis... shouldn't he be heading to the wall soon?) episode with an incredible battle scene at the end.

The Grey Worm plot line was silly. And I felt Sansa developed a little too fast. Felt more like a character development arc you see in a movie where writers a pressed for time. In a TV show there is time for more subtle development
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #157 on: June 02, 2014, 01:21:17 pm »
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(except for Stannis... shouldn't he be heading to the wall soon?) episode with an incredible battle scene at the end.

He arrives next episode, which will be 100% the Battle at the Wall.
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #158 on: June 02, 2014, 01:36:55 pm »
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While I am truly excited to see Stannis go to the Wall, I feel like the show has done an unusually bad job setting up the big Wall battle. In the book, there are a couple skirmishes spread out over the book. Here, we have just had nine episodes of "they are about to attack! They are so close! Manse can kill us anytime, no doubt! Hey, they attacked a village close by!" The threat just feels overblown at this point, because the buildup has been so bad. Why not a shot of Manse's gigantic army closing in on the Wall at the end of the last episode or the one before it or the one before that? We haven't even seen Manse in forever, I feel like he should have been reintroduced to casual non-book viewers. Also, what's the point of having Tormund and Ygritte's stuff going on, if the attacks on the Wall were just going to happen at the same time? I'm sure it will still be awesome, it's just hard to imagine the battle even happening.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #159 on: June 02, 2014, 01:38:33 pm »
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Complete agreement with what Robz said. It's a real head-scratcher.
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #160 on: June 02, 2014, 01:56:07 pm »
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Haven't caugt up with the series, but it sounds like Oberyn got characterized as much nicer than in the books. While reading the books, he struck me as a villain sort of guy, who happens to get sympathy from the reader because the world he's in is just so [NASTY-WORD!] up. I'd probably put him in the same bag as the Hound, not Tyrion, from what transpires in the books. He's in King's Landing to kill people, and to Hell with everyone and everything else.

Probably the kid abducting and women slapping affects my view on him.
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KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #161 on: June 02, 2014, 06:01:34 pm »
0

Haven't caugt up with the series, but it sounds like Oberyn got characterized as much nicer than in the books. While reading the books, he struck me as a villain sort of guy, who happens to get sympathy from the reader because the world he's in is just so [NASTY-WORD!] up. I'd probably put him in the same bag as the Hound, not Tyrion, from what transpires in the books. He's in King's Landing to kill people, and to Hell with everyone and everything else.

Probably the kid abducting and women slapping affects my view on him.

He didn't seem particularily mean in the books. He isn't around for very long. To me it was more like he was like Jaime before his hand got cut off. Impatient and ready to fight anyone
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pacovf

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #162 on: June 02, 2014, 06:50:09 pm »
+1

Haven't caugt up with the series, but it sounds like Oberyn got characterized as much nicer than in the books. While reading the books, he struck me as a villain sort of guy, who happens to get sympathy from the reader because the world he's in is just so [NASTY-WORD!] up. I'd probably put him in the same bag as the Hound, not Tyrion, from what transpires in the books. He's in King's Landing to kill people, and to Hell with everyone and everything else.

Probably the kid abducting and women slapping affects my view on him.

He didn't seem particularily mean in the books. He isn't around for very long. To me it was more like he was like Jaime before his hand got cut off. Impatient and ready to fight anyone

... and ready to throw kids off windows, amirite? I find your comparison quite spot on!

EDIT: for the sake of detail, what he does "on screen" in the books is fine, aside from poisoning his spear with manticore poison, but seeing who he used that spear against, I can hardly feel upset about it.

It's all the stuff that other people tell he did that is not fine. I already mentioned his way to gain custody of his daughters, but the fact that out of seven children, all of them are female, hints at something creepy. We also have him crippling Willas Tyrell, and overall being a dick to the Tyrells, starting again the hostilities between the two families. And you know, poisoning people left and right.

That's not to say he's not badass, 'coz man if he isn't nobody is. But he is quite the opposite of a heroic figure.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 07:08:19 pm by pacovf »
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Eevee

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #163 on: June 02, 2014, 07:20:12 pm »
0

Despite some weak scenes (well, actually just the Gilly stuff), I'd say this was the best episode of the entire series this far.

Loved ALL the Sansa scenes, it's incredible they've transformed her from insufferable to "I can't wait for her to appear again!" so fast, Tyrion delivered the beetle story very well and I like that they are doing stuff like that. I thought Jorah leaving was unbelievable acting from Emilia Clarke and her strongest scene this far, although I somewhat dislike how Barristan doesn't really seem that bad-ass.. I mean, he was smirking during the conversation with Jorah.. and he said he wanted to talk to him man to man before telling Dany, but he just instantly left after telling him he knows, before Jorah had time to say anything?? He almost seems to be avoiding confrontation, which doesn't fit the character in my opinion..

My guess is they are building up Grey Worm for the Harpy to kill (instead of faceless Unsullied). Not the greatest plot development, but I'll take whatever to get Missandei naked. Easily the hottest woman in the show!

The fighting scene was done reasonably well. The choreographics were cool, and Pascal really crushed it. The Mountain was fairly meh, but when the source material is that strong, it's obviously still going to be quite impactful.

Man, it sucks there are only two more episodes and we'll be stuck waiting again.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #164 on: June 02, 2014, 07:22:02 pm »
0

Haven't caugt up with the series, but it sounds like Oberyn got characterized as much nicer than in the books. While reading the books, he struck me as a villain sort of guy, who happens to get sympathy from the reader because the world he's in is just so [NASTY-WORD!] up. I'd probably put him in the same bag as the Hound, not Tyrion, from what transpires in the books. He's in King's Landing to kill people, and to Hell with everyone and everything else.

Probably the kid abducting and women slapping affects my view on him.

He didn't seem particularily mean in the books. He isn't around for very long. To me it was more like he was like Jaime before his hand got cut off. Impatient and ready to fight anyone

... and ready to throw kids off windows, amirite? I find your comparison quite spot on!

EDIT: for the sake of detail, what he does "on screen" in the books is fine, aside from poisoning his spear with manticore poison, but seeing who he used that spear against, I can hardly feel upset about it.

It's all the stuff that other people tell he did that is not fine. I already mentioned his way to gain custody of his daughters, but the fact that out of seven children, all of them are female, hints at something creepy. We also have him crippling Willas Tyrell, and overall being a dick to the Tyrells, starting again the hostilities between the two families. And you know, poisoning people left and right.

That's not to say he's not badass, 'coz man if he isn't nobody is. But he is quite the opposite of a heroic figure.

Yeah, but he's really kind of an antihero.  Not a villain.  Like, he's bad, but he's badass, and you want him to keep being badass. 
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Eevee

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #165 on: June 02, 2014, 08:25:06 pm »
+1

There are a couple of things going for making oberyn seem more likable. First, he is an enemy of an enemy (the lannisters) for most readers/watchers, and second, he isn't always well liked which makes him seem more or an underdog.

Definitely a lot of "the end justifies the means" going with people's opinions on him.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #166 on: June 03, 2014, 09:46:54 pm »
0

there are certain things in movies and books that hit me much harder than almost anything else. the end of the fight scene was one of them. if the mountain just killed him, even if it was close, i could probably shrug it off easily. but as it happened, it was so... unnecessary, because oberyn already won. dunno why this makes it that much worse for me, but it does. I might actually have trouble sleeping tonight because of it. just thinking about it makes me wanna cry

it's also the first episode that i'm not going to rewatch right away, cause i really dont want to see it again.

i'm glad the mountain is dead though. and i do think it was one of the best episodes so far.

Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #167 on: June 04, 2014, 02:53:06 pm »
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Although I'm not opposed to speed up Sansa becoming a player on her own, I don't like the implications her scene in the last episode is. What the hell did Littlefinger think would happen after he killed Lysa in front of her. It was kinda obvious she would be questioned about it, ad with the Lords having to come up the mountain,l he had more than enough time to develop a story together with Sansa. Also it screws eith the power distribution between Sansa and LF quite a lot.   
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #168 on: June 04, 2014, 03:08:35 pm »
0

Although I'm not opposed to speed up Sansa becoming a player on her own, I don't like the implications her scene in the last episode is. What the hell did Littlefinger think would happen after he killed Lysa in front of her. It was kinda obvious she would be questioned about it, ad with the Lords having to come up the mountain,l he had more than enough time to develop a story together with Sansa. Also it screws eith the power distribution between Sansa and LF quite a lot.   

I think this is not necessarily a problem.  Littlefinger's story was that Lysa committed suicide, and Sansa wasn't there for it.  I'm sure they discussed what he was going to tell them, and since she wasn't involved at all she may not have been called for questioning.  He would have had to act surprised when they called for her, as it would be expected of him.  The only thing he wouldn't have accounted for in this case was for Sansa to reveal a different lie in order to make his more plausible.  Everything else he expected.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #169 on: June 04, 2014, 03:23:00 pm »
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So he thought he could hide the fact she was in the room? Sounds pretty stupid.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #170 on: June 04, 2014, 03:23:13 pm »
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Although I'm not opposed to speed up Sansa becoming a player on her own, I don't like the implications her scene in the last episode is. What the hell did Littlefinger think would happen after he killed Lysa in front of her. It was kinda obvious she would be questioned about it, ad with the Lords having to come up the mountain,l he had more than enough time to develop a story together with Sansa. Also it screws eith the power distribution between Sansa and LF quite a lot.   

It changes the power distribution, but I think that's fine because I think that's going to happen early in Book 6 anyway. So we saw Sansa at the end of Book 5 plot-wise but with character from early Book 6. Being out-of-sync isn't necessarily a problem (like how Arya is a cold-blooded killer before going to Braavos in the show, which is different but fine in my book).
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #171 on: June 04, 2014, 03:28:42 pm »
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So he thought he could hide the fact she was in the room? Sounds pretty stupid.

Well no one else was there.  Or even if that wasn't part of his story, it's more believable for them to call upon Sansa and him act like he wasn't expecting it or didn't want them to then for him to say "Look ask my niece, she'll tell you I'm innocent."
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #174 on: June 08, 2014, 11:26:19 pm »
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Spoilers for the latest episode to follow:

I don't want to come off as too harshly critical. It was a stunning accomplishment, the battle episode. Very high quality, very well made. Some terrific shots. I loved everything that happened atop the wall, especially, and with the giants. The score was impressive. And unlike the Blackwater, it was very easy to understand what was happening at all times.

In all other ways, however, I would say the Blackwater battle was superior. I think it mostly comes down to character and plotting. I know who Grenn, Edd, and Pyp are because I read the books. Here, we basically only know them because they have had lines now and then. The deaths of some of these people didn't have much emotional weight, given that they aren't fleshed out characters whatsoever. Even Ygritte has been reduced to basically nothing this season, since they've barely shown her. The Blackwater, in contrast, had real stakes for tons of consequential and well-defined characters, so it was ultimately more gripping. Also, it made more narrative sense and told a complete story. The Wall battle was essentially just a battle, and nothing is resolved by the end. Since the writers decided to condense this story to one episode, I really, really thought they were going to wrap the whole thing up. I was annoyed that a certain arrival did not take place, because it seems like this will delay certain events I was looking forward to seeing until the next season. That's fairly grating, given the mega time waste that was Craster's Keep this season.

Also, Jon deciding to confront Manse by himself makes a lot less sense than Thorne pressuring him to do it, as happened in the books. Oh well.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #175 on: June 08, 2014, 11:31:02 pm »
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Grenn and Pip were pretty important after the battle, right? They didn't die in the books, as I recall.. they were the ones sent away to man the other castles, right?  Wonder if they're going to cut some of that out later.

And I think that arrival will happen in the finale.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #176 on: June 08, 2014, 11:44:26 pm »
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Grenn and Pip were pretty important after the battle, right? They didn't die in the books, as I recall.. they were the ones sent away to man the other castles, right?  Wonder if they're going to cut some of that out later.

And I think that arrival will happen in the finale.


They didn't die, but I wouldn't say they were "pretty" important. It's fine, just not very meaningful, to kill them, I think.

I'm quite sure the arrival will happen, but I thought it would happen in this episode, and then Jon would become Lord Commander in episode 10. I think there's almost no way that the next episode manages both those things, given how much they have to do in King's Landing, with Arya, and hopefully with Brienne and Pod (Lady Stoneheart?).
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #177 on: June 09, 2014, 12:22:34 am »
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I actually felt they hit pretty hard.  Especially Pip.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #178 on: June 10, 2014, 04:57:21 pm »
+1

I hate that they chose to spend an entire episode of their limited time to this battle without even resolving it. Obviously not as bad as Craster's Keep, but still.

It was visually effective, and as someone who knows the characters from books, I did feel the deaths. Still, the least fun hour of the show for me this far.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 05:00:10 pm by Eevee »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #179 on: June 10, 2014, 05:13:59 pm »
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Really. I've heard complaints that this episode 9 wasn't "episode 9 enough" in terms of twists, but as far as epic battle sequences go, this was one of my favorites ever, hands down the best I've seen on a tv show. I like that most episodes keep you up to date on a bunch of character arcs but this felt like a fitting almost-culmination of a major arc of this season.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #180 on: June 15, 2014, 10:21:27 pm »
+1

Really disappointed the Tysha conversation didn't happen :(  I was waiting all season for it
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #181 on: June 15, 2014, 10:23:59 pm »
+1

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #182 on: June 15, 2014, 10:36:10 pm »
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I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

Yes!  That too!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #183 on: June 15, 2014, 10:39:01 pm »
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Did Tyrion kill his dear old dad for Father's Day?  (I have read the books, I have not followed the show but I know it is somewhere around that point)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #184 on: June 15, 2014, 10:39:23 pm »
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Oh yeah and Hound/Brienne.  Good change I think.  I assumed the end result would be the same as the books, but I really didn't know.  First time I actually felt like I just did not know the outcome.. I kept thinking she might just kill him (and skip the Gravedigger subplot), or maybe he'd kill her and something crazy would happen.  Anyway, glad Arya is on her way to Bravvos and Hound has an opening for the future.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #185 on: June 15, 2014, 10:39:51 pm »
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Did Tyrion kill his dear old dad for Father's Day?  (I have read the books, I have not followed the show but I know it is somewhere around that point)

Haha, good call.  Yep
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #186 on: June 15, 2014, 11:00:57 pm »
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I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #187 on: June 15, 2014, 11:23:51 pm »
+1

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


But... I want to stand over non-readers' heads and shout "gotcha" when that sick reveal happens. And that's all I care about.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #188 on: June 15, 2014, 11:37:47 pm »
0

But... I want to stand over non-readers' heads and shout "gotcha" when that sick reveal happens. And that's all I care about.

well sure, to an extent most readers do (myself included) and i understand that. i just think that in this example there really isn't much value in the events beyond the 'gotcha'. personally it was one of the things i figured would get written out of the show for simplicity's sake.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #189 on: June 15, 2014, 11:43:07 pm »
0

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


I agree. I was really disappointed that the Brienne plot line took up so many chapters, and that's how it ended. I would have been fine with all of that being cut out of the books honestly.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #190 on: June 15, 2014, 11:46:43 pm »
0

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


I agree. I was really disappointed that the Brienne plot line took up so many chapters, and that's how it ended. I would have been fine with all of that being cut out of the books honestly.

Ahem, ended?  Her plot line isn't over! Shit is going down with Lady Stoneheart.

I, for one, will be very disappointed if she is cut out.  I love the idea of a crazy undead lady brutally dishing out pure, unadulterated justice.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #191 on: June 15, 2014, 11:48:07 pm »
0

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


I agree. I was really disappointed that the Brienne plot line took up so many chapters, and that's how it ended. I would have been fine with all of that being cut out of the books honestly.

Ahem, ended?  Her plot line isn't over! Shit is going down with Lady Stoneheart.

I, for one, will be very disappointed if she is cut out.  I love the idea of a crazy undead lady brutally dishing out pure, unadulterated justice.


I agree with WW. The good news: I highly doubt she'll get cut, given that her return is the big thing that most fans want at this point. I think they are just dragging it out to keep us hooked and fuming.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #192 on: June 15, 2014, 11:55:32 pm »
0

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


I agree. I was really disappointed that the Brienne plot line took up so many chapters, and that's how it ended. I would have been fine with all of that being cut out of the books honestly.

Ahem, ended?  Her plot line isn't over! Shit is going down with Lady Stoneheart.

I, for one, will be very disappointed if she is cut out.  I love the idea of a crazy undead lady brutally dishing out pure, unadulterated justice.


I agree with WW. The good news: I highly doubt she'll get cut, given that her return is the big thing that most fans want at this point. I think they are just dragging it out to keep us hooked and fuming.

I mean, we are left (at the end of A Dance With Dragons) with Brienne and Jaime going off to face Lady Stoneheart's justice (presumably).  The Imp survived her sisters justice, I am looking forward to Jaime surviving hers.  So I can't really see how they can cut her out.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #193 on: June 16, 2014, 12:20:49 am »
+1

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


I agree. I was really disappointed that the Brienne plot line took up so many chapters, and that's how it ended. I would have been fine with all of that being cut out of the books honestly.

Ahem, ended?  Her plot line isn't over! Shit is going down with Lady Stoneheart.

I, for one, will be very disappointed if she is cut out.  I love the idea of a crazy undead lady brutally dishing out pure, unadulterated justice.



I know it's a fantasy series and all that, and there's tons of this stuff already with Melisandre and Beric and the White Walkers and whatnot, but every time there's something new introduced in this vein, I was a little frustrated. I remember reading it, and basically thinking to myself, "Oh, that's cool. Catelyn is still alive, because of magic." I know it's pretty ridiculous to think that when there's a decent amount of the red magic going around, but I wish there was less of it. It made Jon Snow's death less impactful, for example, because I'm fully expecting him to be brought back to life. It just makes a lot of the moments that should be really powerful (such as Jon dying, which is huge as he's one of the biggest characters in the season) less powerful, as I am fully expecting him to be brought back to life "because magic". There's no feeling of closure with any of the deaths anymore, because who knows what could happen -- which is one of the reasons I really dislike Lady Stoneheart and would be glad to not see the storyline.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #194 on: June 16, 2014, 12:50:42 am »
+2

I know it's a fantasy series and all that, and there's tons of this stuff already with Melisandre and Beric and the White Walkers and whatnot, but every time there's something new introduced in this vein, I was a little frustrated. I remember reading it, and basically thinking to myself, "Oh, that's cool. Catelyn is still alive, because of magic." I know it's pretty ridiculous to think that when there's a decent amount of the red magic going around, but I wish there was less of it. It made Jon Snow's death less impactful, for example, because I'm fully expecting him to be brought back to life. It just makes a lot of the moments that should be really powerful (such as Jon dying, which is huge as he's one of the biggest characters in the season) less powerful, as I am fully expecting him to be brought back to life "because magic". There's no feeling of closure with any of the deaths anymore, because who knows what could happen -- which is one of the reasons I really dislike Lady Stoneheart and would be glad to not see the storyline.

I feel like it's possible GRRM using the lady stoneheart resurrection as a sort of take that to Tolkien. Gandalf dies and comes back 'changed' into a white wizard, but there's no real change. Gandalf's death has no real meaning since there was no real sacrifice. GRRM wanted to parallel that but put his own morbid twist on the changing that happens. Cat comes back, but not as the same Cat. LSH is a vengeful shadow. As it pertains to Jon, I feel like if he does come back (and it's super likely he will) the lesson with uncat seems to be he won't come back exactly the same. So the mystery isn't if he'll come back, but how he will and who he'll be.

EDIT: Also, are all these spoiler tags needed? The subject line says spoilers and as far as I can tell most everyone posting here has read the books. And if you haven't, well there's very little useful discussion that happens outside the spoiler tags anyway.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 12:53:04 am by jonts26 »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #195 on: June 16, 2014, 01:21:09 am »
0

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


I agree. I was really disappointed that the Brienne plot line took up so many chapters, and that's how it ended. I would have been fine with all of that being cut out of the books honestly.

Ahem, ended?  Her plot line isn't over! Shit is going down with Lady Stoneheart.

I, for one, will be very disappointed if she is cut out.  I love the idea of a crazy undead lady brutally dishing out pure, unadulterated justice.



I know it's a fantasy series and all that, and there's tons of this stuff already with Melisandre and Beric and the White Walkers and whatnot, but every time there's something new introduced in this vein, I was a little frustrated. I remember reading it, and basically thinking to myself, "Oh, that's cool. Catelyn is still alive, because of magic." I know it's pretty ridiculous to think that when there's a decent amount of the red magic going around, but I wish there was less of it. It made Jon Snow's death less impactful, for example, because I'm fully expecting him to be brought back to life. It just makes a lot of the moments that should be really powerful (such as Jon dying, which is huge as he's one of the biggest characters in the season) less powerful, as I am fully expecting him to be brought back to life "because magic". There's no feeling of closure with any of the deaths anymore, because who knows what could happen -- which is one of the reasons I really dislike Lady Stoneheart and would be glad to not see the storyline.


I had the opposite reaction. It says it's a fantasy series, but there is so little magic in the beginning. And up until LSH, the magic just didn't seem to matter much. It plays a role in Stannis's victory over Renly, and has some relevance to Daeny, but I don't know, it wasn't like a gamechanger for anyone really important, until Catelyn Stark dies and is brought back to life. I sort of felt like it the punchline was, "Hey, you know this is a fantasy story, right?" And I liked that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #196 on: June 16, 2014, 09:26:30 am »
0

Did I miss something or did they cut Cold Hands?

Edit: They also cut Tysha/"She fucked Lancel, and Cattleblack and probably the Moon Boy too", which kinda sucks, as it leaves Tyrion and Jaime in good relations, instead of what was in the books.

A great change is the Brienne/Hound scene, it makes what happens later at the Quite Isle much more meaningful.

And I also hopped the with show Lady SH, but, oh well, we'll just have to hang those Frays at some other time, I guess.

Oh, and next season gets Wyman Manderly, right? That's gonna be sweeeeeet! The North remembers.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 10:09:19 am by Grujah »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #197 on: June 16, 2014, 11:04:15 am »
0

Did I miss something or did they cut Cold Hands?

Edit: They also cut Tysha/"She fucked Lancel, and Cattleblack and probably the Moon Boy too", which kinda sucks, as it leaves Tyrion and Jaime in good relations, instead of what was in the books.

A great change is the Brienne/Hound scene, it makes what happens later at the Quite Isle much more meaningful.

And I also hopped the with show Lady SH, but, oh well, we'll just have to hang those Frays at some other time, I guess.

Oh, and next season gets Wyman Manderly, right? That's gonna be sweeeeeet! The North remembers.

Looks like they definitely cut Coldhands. I can live with that, but I need me some Stoneheart.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #198 on: June 16, 2014, 11:47:22 am »
0

Quote
And if you haven't, well there's very little useful discussion that happens outside the spoiler tags anyway.

i haven't read the books, and i appreciate the spoilers, though for me it would be better if there were either 2 different kinds of spoilers or if only book knowledge (i.e. stuff that hasn't happened yet in the show) was put in spoilers. but you can't guarantee that everyone who looks in this thread is even up to date with the show.

KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #199 on: June 16, 2014, 01:43:43 pm »
+1

Did I miss something or did they cut Cold Hands?

Edit: They also cut Tysha/"She fucked Lancel, and Cattleblack and probably the Moon Boy too", which kinda sucks, as it leaves Tyrion and Jaime in good relations, instead of what was in the books.

A great change is the Brienne/Hound scene, it makes what happens later at the Quite Isle much more meaningful.

And I also hopped the with show Lady SH, but, oh well, we'll just have to hang those Frays at some other time, I guess.

Oh, and next season gets Wyman Manderly, right? That's gonna be sweeeeeet! The North remembers.

Looks like they definitely cut Coldhands. I can live with that, but I need me some Stoneheart.

Lady Stoneheart doesn't come in till end of book 4 though when she hangs Brienne, well there's like 1 epilogue in book 3 right with her right? Still it's essentially book 4 and introducing a new character at the end of a season is not great for a TV show. I doubt they can cut her.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #200 on: June 16, 2014, 01:49:33 pm »
0

Did I miss something or did they cut Cold Hands?

Edit: They also cut Tysha/"She fucked Lancel, and Cattleblack and probably the Moon Boy too", which kinda sucks, as it leaves Tyrion and Jaime in good relations, instead of what was in the books.

A great change is the Brienne/Hound scene, it makes what happens later at the Quite Isle much more meaningful.

And I also hopped the with show Lady SH, but, oh well, we'll just have to hang those Frays at some other time, I guess.

Oh, and next season gets Wyman Manderly, right? That's gonna be sweeeeeet! The North remembers.

Looks like they definitely cut Coldhands. I can live with that, but I need me some Stoneheart.

Lady Stoneheart doesn't come in till end of book 4 though when she hangs Brienne, well there's like 1 epilogue in book 3 right with her right? Still it's essentially book 4 and introducing a new character at the end of a season is not great for a TV show. I doubt they can cut her.

She doesn't hang Brienne!

I hope they introduce Season 5 with the Lady Stoneheart Epilogue where they hang the Frey that goes to pay the ransom. That would be an awesome season opening.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #201 on: June 16, 2014, 01:58:03 pm »
+1

I was satisfied with everything, except I wanted some Lady Stoneheart.

i see this sort of sentiment all over the place and i simply don't understand it. personally i have zero interest in her and i'd have greatly preferred if her 'return' never happened. it cheapens the red wedding and doesn't add anything constructive to the story that could not have been handled by existing characters.

as it relates to the show, it just strikes me as another 'gotcha' moment for book readers to hold over tv viewers heads.


I agree. I was really disappointed that the Brienne plot line took up so many chapters, and that's how it ended. I would have been fine with all of that being cut out of the books honestly.

Ahem, ended?  Her plot line isn't over! Shit is going down with Lady Stoneheart.

I, for one, will be very disappointed if she is cut out.  I love the idea of a crazy undead lady brutally dishing out pure, unadulterated justice.



I know it's a fantasy series and all that, and there's tons of this stuff already with Melisandre and Beric and the White Walkers and whatnot, but every time there's something new introduced in this vein, I was a little frustrated. I remember reading it, and basically thinking to myself, "Oh, that's cool. Catelyn is still alive, because of magic." I know it's pretty ridiculous to think that when there's a decent amount of the red magic going around, but I wish there was less of it. It made Jon Snow's death less impactful, for example, because I'm fully expecting him to be brought back to life. It just makes a lot of the moments that should be really powerful (such as Jon dying, which is huge as he's one of the biggest characters in the season) less powerful, as I am fully expecting him to be brought back to life "because magic". There's no feeling of closure with any of the deaths anymore, because who knows what could happen -- which is one of the reasons I really dislike Lady Stoneheart and would be glad to not see the storyline.


I see this sentiment a lot, and I don't really agree with it.  "Is (s)he really dead?" is a running theme of the series, with or without magic.  Arya getting hit in the chaos of the red wedding, The Hound's fate, Brienne's fate, Bran Falling, Jojen and Meera not being around any more, Jon, etc., were all moments where you had to consider the character possibly dying at the end (or middle) of the appropriate chapter.  When I read the Red Wedding, I wasn't even convinced Robb Catelyn had died until chapters later. (Maybe I was in denial.)

People coming back to life, though.. it's not like revival in a video game.  Those that come back---Drogo, Catelyn, Gregor, Beric---are all not really themselves when they "come back."  Only Beric is remotely like his old self.  Drogo was braindead, Catelyn had no thoughts except murderous revenge, and Gregor is, well, probably without a head.  I don't really understand how this cheapens their death at all. 

I also didn't get the impression that Jon died.  So I don't think he'll be "brought back" in the same way as others.

At any rate, stuff coming back to life has been a theme from the very beginning; from the prologue, even. 
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #202 on: June 16, 2014, 06:13:08 pm »
0

I think they really really botched Tyrion, oh my god! How could they skip the conversation with Jaime!? His actions make no sense now!!

The Bran-scene made me cringe, but when you think about it, that's pretty much how it went in the books.. at first reading it made me cringe ttoo, but then I sort of pushed the feeling aside, telling myself "well, this is something mystical, I'm not supposed to get it".

The fight between Sandor and Brienne got super gore, wow. I found myself looking at the screen between my fingers at the end.

I'm not too upset about us not getting LSH (yet). I mean, if this was all we were getting from her in the books, I would prefer her never to have been included. Her, Coldhands and the shadow baby that killed Renly were my three most (and only) hated characters in the books (although I'm hoping Coldhands get a better explanation in future books). I'm definitely in the "could do with little less magic" - group.

Man, they wrapped up so many storylines so neatly though. I absolutely loved the Children-theme, just great writing.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #203 on: June 16, 2014, 06:34:22 pm »
0

One more thing, what's up with the guards at the Eyrie just letting The Hound walk with one of the last living Starks? Seems like a pretty gigantic plot hole.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #204 on: June 16, 2014, 06:52:14 pm »
0

One more thing, what's up with the guards at the Eyrie just letting The Hound walk with one of the last living Starks? Seems like a pretty gigantic plot hole.

Wow, hadn't even thought about that. Probably the only thing I'm actually upset about. I'm fine with all the other changes, really. I also like what WW's saying about LS, "deaths", and the like.

Also - more magic!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #205 on: June 16, 2014, 06:58:10 pm »
0

If the weirwood paste Bran was eating to awake his powers was actually made of Jojen, him dying this way could have been a major change, especially if they need Meera alive or killed some other way. Making Meera kill him was very effective though.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #206 on: June 16, 2014, 07:01:41 pm »
0

If the weirwood paste Bran was eating to awake his powers was actually made of Jojen, him dying this way could have been a major change, especially if they need Meera alive or killed some other way. Making Meera kill him was very effective though.

I actually took his death as confirmation of Jojen paste - it'd be so very, very easily for him to just eat paste in the show that's portrayed as magic, and that's that. Sure it'd be a change, but I don't feel like it'd be a big change.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #207 on: June 16, 2014, 07:02:21 pm »
0

If Ygritte's cold-blooded killing was highlighted in the show, Mance sure was taken to different direction. Showing the humanitarian side of him like that instantly made him one of the most heroic characters in the entire show, which is interesting because I don't see Free Folk as particularly rewarding to root for.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #208 on: June 16, 2014, 07:03:25 pm »
0

If the weirwood paste Bran was eating to awake his powers was actually made of Jojen, him dying this way could have been a major change, especially if they need Meera alive or killed some other way. Making Meera kill him was very effective though.

I actually took his death as confirmation of Jojen paste - it'd be so very, very easily for him to just eat paste in the show that's portrayed as magic, and that's that. Sure it'd be a change, but I don't feel like it'd be a big change.

If true, definitely takes the already creepy storyline to a whole new level of darkness, no?
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #209 on: June 16, 2014, 07:08:51 pm »
0

If the weirwood paste Bran was eating to awake his powers was actually made of Jojen, him dying this way could have been a major change, especially if they need Meera alive or killed some other way. Making Meera kill him was very effective though.

I actually took his death as confirmation of Jojen paste - it'd be so very, very easily for him to just eat paste in the show that's portrayed as magic, and that's that. Sure it'd be a change, but I don't feel like it'd be a big change.

If true, definitely takes the already creepy storyline to a whole new level of darkness, no?

I'm a fan of fan theories that Bloodraven/Three-Eyed Crow is a bad guy, so yes, but I'd enjoy it.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #210 on: June 16, 2014, 07:31:16 pm »
+1

If Ygritte's cold-blooded killing was highlighted in the show, Mance sure was taken to different direction. Showing the humanitarian side of him like that instantly made him one of the most heroic characters in the entire show, which is interesting because I don't see Free Folk as particularly rewarding to root for.

Really? I find them among the MORE root-worthy factions. They have understandable and relatable goals: Get south of the Wall so that zombies don't kill them. And despite being barbarians they are sort of honorable and even trustworthy. And their leaders, Mance, Tormund, and Val, are all fairly awesome.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #211 on: June 16, 2014, 07:37:17 pm »
0

True, and while I love them, especially Tormund and Mance, there is no one else likable, and the goal they seek to attain (not dying) is not the most interesting compared to stuff like Dorne's quest for revenge or Varys running his schemes. To me, the main pull in the series is the politics and relations between people, and Free Folk's struggle to live doesn't have much of that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #212 on: June 17, 2014, 12:26:28 pm »
0

Also, something I noticed.  Charles Dance is just awesome.  In the last scene with Tyrion where he says, "You are my son," you can see a subtle twitching of the facial features, indicating a slight disgust at having to say it.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #213 on: June 17, 2014, 12:27:22 pm »
0

If the weirwood paste Bran was eating to awake his powers was actually made of Jojen, him dying this way could have been a major change, especially if they need Meera alive or killed some other way. Making Meera kill him was very effective though.

I actually took his death as confirmation of Jojen paste - it'd be so very, very easily for him to just eat paste in the show that's portrayed as magic, and that's that. Sure it'd be a change, but I don't feel like it'd be a big change.

I did as well. I wonder if that means Meera isn't paste, too.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #214 on: June 17, 2014, 12:32:35 pm »
0

One more thing, what's up with the guards at the Eyrie just letting The Hound walk with one of the last living Starks? Seems like a pretty gigantic plot hole.

Yeah, I had a problem with that.  On the other hand, the Eyrie is like closed off from everything and every one.  Lysa basically cut the Eyrie off from the world and refused to join in any conflicts.  They also might not consider Clegane an outlaw.  Certainly if word had gotten to Petyr, he'd snatch Arya up.  But it takes like all day just to travel up to the castle.  Clegane has an argument to leave, too.. she has no family in the Eyrie any longer, so it's his "duty" or whatever to take her elsewhere.


So, it's slightly plausible. 
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #215 on: June 17, 2014, 12:36:38 pm »
0

If the weirwood paste Bran was eating to awake his powers was actually made of Jojen, him dying this way could have been a major change, especially if they need Meera alive or killed some other way. Making Meera kill him was very effective though.

I actually took his death as confirmation of Jojen paste - it'd be so very, very easily for him to just eat paste in the show that's portrayed as magic, and that's that. Sure it'd be a change, but I don't feel like it'd be a big change.

If true, definitely takes the already creepy storyline to a whole new level of darkness, no?

I'm a fan of fan theories that Bloodraven/Three-Eyed Crow is a bad guy, so yes, but I'd enjoy it.

Eh, everyone is a "bad guy" to someone else.. that's kind of the point.  I think of Bloodraven as a kind of third faction (or fourth, or fifth, or hundredth).  He certainly must have a reason for aiding Bran other than just being a nice dude. 
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #216 on: June 17, 2014, 01:54:36 pm »
0

Eh, everyone is a "bad guy" to someone else.. that's kind of the point.  I think of Bloodraven as a kind of third faction (or fourth, or fifth, or hundredth).  He certainly must have a reason for aiding Bran other than just being a nice dude.

Yes, I obviously get that. Even within the show, there are some people whose success would probably be a bad thing (Dany invading and bringing a wave of genocide and slaughter along with her (edge case: dragons might be needed to fight the Others)), etc. That's what I mean.
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Eevee

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #217 on: June 17, 2014, 02:16:45 pm »
0

Us not having anything new on the series for 10 months is enormous levels of suckitude. Does anyone have any rough idea when WoW is scheduled to come out?
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #218 on: June 17, 2014, 02:17:36 pm »
0

Us not having anything new on the series for 10 months is enormous levels of suckitude. Does anyone have any rough idea when WoW is scheduled to come out?

2015 at the earliest. In all likelihood, Season 5 will come out before Book 6.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #219 on: June 17, 2014, 02:17:50 pm »
0

Us not having anything new on the series for 10 months is enormous levels of suckitude. Does anyone have any rough idea when WoW is scheduled to come out?

Not a day after 2029.
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KingZog3

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #220 on: June 17, 2014, 10:04:46 pm »
0

Us not having anything new on the series for 10 months is enormous levels of suckitude. Does anyone have any rough idea when WoW is scheduled to come out?

2015 at the earliest. In all likelihood, Season 5 will come out before Book 6.

But they still have books 4 and 5 to cover. So not too many spoilers will be shown in the shows I don't think.
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Voltaire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #221 on: June 17, 2014, 10:11:47 pm »
0

But they still have books 4 and 5 to cover. So not too many spoilers will be shown in the shows I don't think.

Not really.

Bran: Book 5
Sansa: Book 6
Dany: Book 5
Arya: Book 4/5
Tyrion: Book 5
Cersei/Jaime: Book 4
John: Book 5

(there could be some small errors here)

Really, only the King's Landing plotline will be at the start of Book 4.
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #222 on: June 17, 2014, 11:16:13 pm »
0

The Wall plotline is the one lagging behind significantly. There's some significant Jon/Sam/Stannis stuff at the end of Book 3 that we haven't seen yet. On the other hand, Sansa and Bran are both pretty much beyond what even Book 5 covers.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #223 on: June 17, 2014, 11:22:25 pm »
0

The Wall plotline is the one lagging behind significantly. There's some significant Jon/Sam/Stannis stuff at the end of Book 3 that we haven't seen yet. On the other hand, Sansa and Bran are both pretty much beyond what even Book 5 covers.

That's not quite true; Sansa and Bran are both about halfway through book 4/5. (That said, they each only have like three chapters in book 4/5, so that doesn't leave very much.)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #224 on: June 17, 2014, 11:23:18 pm »
0

(edge case: dragons might be needed to fight the Others)

That's, uh, not an edge case
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #225 on: June 18, 2014, 09:19:33 am »
0

I kinda hated those last 2 episodes.

WTF no Tysha reveal????
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #226 on: June 18, 2014, 10:10:30 am »
0

The Wall plotline is the one lagging behind significantly. There's some significant Jon/Sam/Stannis stuff at the end of Book 3 that we haven't seen yet. On the other hand, Sansa and Bran are both pretty much beyond what even Book 5 covers.

That's not quite true; Sansa and Bran are both about halfway through book 4/5. (That said, they each only have like three chapters in book 4/5, so that doesn't leave very much.)

Good call on the Wall, Robz. Duh.

Bran has a little bit more of 5 to go, but Sansa is in Book 6 in my opinion. There's no way we're going to see Harry the Heir, Lords Declarant, etc. with that final scene we had where she reveals herself and protects Littlefinger. It's my impression that scene is their adaptation/change to get to the same place things will be at the end of the Heir/Declarant subplot (as in, I would not be surprised if Book 6 started with her publicly revealing herself in order to etc. etc. etc.)
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #227 on: June 18, 2014, 12:40:51 pm »
0

This reddit conversation just made me laugh out loud for some reason, even though it's probably not even meant to be funny:
Quote
and why didn't Brienne show Arya the direwolf bread that Hot Pie made?
--I think they ate it. It'd be pretty moldy by then.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/28fd1q/spoilers_all_show_watchers_are_not_stupid/ciajch6
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 12:42:24 pm by Watno »
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #228 on: June 18, 2014, 01:57:59 pm »
+3

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/28fd1q/spoilers_all_show_watchers_are_not_stupid

I had to unsub from /r/asoiaf because of posts and comment threads like that one. It's become nothing but bitching about every change. The show is an adaptation of an incredibly long and detailed book series. A lot of stuff is going to be cut. A lot of minor stuff, and a handful of more major things as well. TV is a different medium than print. It has its own strengths and limitations. Things are going to be changed, added, condensed, whatever. The strength of an adaptation is not in how closely it follows the source material, but how well it stands on it's own, apart from the source. There's nothing worse than an adaptation which only makes sense when you've read the books. When critiquing the show, you do so in the confines of the show canon, not the book canon. The show isn't perfect and there are plenty of issues you can discuss, but e.g. having 200 posts about changing 'only cat' to 'your sister' is really quite obnoxious. If people are just looking for a scene by scene, line by line retelling of the books, well just reread the books.

And I don't even want to get started on the whole LSH thing. I do think she serves a purpose in the books. But her role so far hasn't exactly been huge. If the show cut her all together, there would be a small hole in the plot that you could fill in any number of ways quite easily.
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #229 on: June 18, 2014, 03:08:38 pm »
0

Some VERY SPOILERY commentary on the lack of Stoneheart:

These are basically my feelings exactly:

"I am sure I could spin either of those reasons off into a long cultural studies-ish essay about the female body, Catelyn, women antiheroes, and the need for a rich tapestry of femininity on television. But instead I will be honest and say: I just really, really, want to watch a show which has Lady Stoneheart in it. As a fan, and someone who just wants to enjoy something."

http://morningafter.gawker.com/why-no-lady-stoneheart-game-of-thrones-1592747748?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #230 on: June 18, 2014, 03:23:29 pm »
0

Some VERY SPOILERY commentary on the lack of Stoneheart:

These are basically my feelings exactly:

"I am sure I could spin either of those reasons off into a long cultural studies-ish essay about the female body, Catelyn, women antiheroes, and the need for a rich tapestry of femininity on television. But instead I will be honest and say: I just really, really, want to watch a show which has Lady Stoneheart in it. As a fan, and someone who just wants to enjoy something."

http://morningafter.gawker.com/why-no-lady-stoneheart-game-of-thrones-1592747748?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow


Plus, you know, live Catelyn sucked so much.. easily one of my least favorite literary characters ever.  But dead Catelyn, man, that chick is awesome.  Throughout all of Seasons 1 and 2 I was just waiting for her to die so she could come back.
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #231 on: June 18, 2014, 03:32:24 pm »
0

...

I think you have look at it in a more differentiated way. For example I don't care much about the words Littlefinger uses, LSH not appearing (yet) orthe Missandei-GreyWorm-relationship people seem to be getting worked up about. On the other hand, I'm quite unhappy with the reveal that Tysha wasn't actually a whore and the lack of any reason for part of the storyline to make sense.
In either case, I think "The book canon handles this plotline differently than the show canon and I like the way the book does it better" is perfectly valid criticism of the show.
Even if it wasn't possible for the show to handle stuff "better" (which I don't believe is the case for most things), disliking the show for not doing so is perfectly reasonable, as is being unhappy that the show caters to a potentially larger audience that doesn't include you instead of a small one that your part of.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #232 on: June 18, 2014, 03:43:16 pm »
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The Tysha thing is a very valid disagreement, I believe, because you don't feel for Tyrion as much without that.  He still has a reason to go to the tower of the hand in the show, but it's not as strong.  And he's not as emotionally crushed.  Despite everything that happened, he was still very protective of his family before Jaime confessed to him.  As much as he always maintained hatred, the "family is more important than anything" dogma of Tywin was deeply ingrained.  The truth about Tysha was the ultimate betrayal, and this particular drove him to seek Tywin out.  Shae was just icing---he already knew she had betrayed him.

Plus it paves a way for a sort of self-destructive and despairing attitude for the next parts of his story.

So this is a case where it's not just that the show was different, but that it doesn't stand on its own as well.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #233 on: June 18, 2014, 04:14:33 pm »
0

Some VERY SPOILERY commentary on the lack of Stoneheart:

These are basically my feelings exactly:

"I am sure I could spin either of those reasons off into a long cultural studies-ish essay about the female body, Catelyn, women antiheroes, and the need for a rich tapestry of femininity on television. But instead I will be honest and say: I just really, really, want to watch a show which has Lady Stoneheart in it. As a fan, and someone who just wants to enjoy something."

http://morningafter.gawker.com/why-no-lady-stoneheart-game-of-thrones-1592747748?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow


Plus, you know, live Catelyn sucked so much.. easily one of my least favorite literary characters ever.  But dead Catelyn, man, that chick is awesome.  Throughout all of Seasons 1 and 2 I was just waiting for her to die so she could come back.

I just do not get this. Catelyn was one of my favorite characters. LS is...well, I enjoy disliking her, so I'm glad she's in the story, but she's not my favorite by any means.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #234 on: June 18, 2014, 04:21:56 pm »
0

I just really didn't like Catelyn.  I mean yes it was good she was in the story, but I disliked her.  She caused all kinds of problems and went on and on about her children... and she was mean to Jon, too.  Whereas just the notion of LS existing is cool. 
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #235 on: June 18, 2014, 04:26:20 pm »
+2

People hate Catelyn and I just don't get it. She's great in all incarnations, and Michelle Fairley did some of the best work on the show of all.
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jonts26

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #236 on: June 18, 2014, 04:31:48 pm »
+1

...

I think you have look at it in a more differentiated way. For example I don't care much about the words Littlefinger uses, LSH not appearing (yet) orthe Missandei-GreyWorm-relationship people seem to be getting worked up about. On the other hand, I'm quite unhappy with the reveal that Tysha wasn't actually a whore and the lack of any reason for part of the storyline to make sense.

I don't understand how that part of the storyline doesn't make sense without Tysha. Tywin has been crapping all over tyrion his entire life. Tyrion hates tywin. There was a big speech about it and everything.

Quote
In either case, I think "The book canon handles this plotline differently than the show canon and I like the way the book does it better" is perfectly valid criticism of the show.
Even if it wasn't possible for the show to handle stuff "better" (which I don't believe is the case for most things), disliking the show for not doing so is perfectly reasonable, as is being unhappy that the show caters to a potentially larger audience that doesn't include you instead of a small one that your part of.

I'm not saying you can't make comparisons from book to show. Of course you can, and should. You can certainly say 'I think the show would be better if X', where X is from the book. X can be anything really. For instance, I think the portrayal of stannis in the show is weaker than that in the books. We could discuss details if you want. But there's a difference between that and most of what I've seen posted. People are raging about these minor points. LSH's role in the story so far is minor. Tysha is minor. The sub has become nothing but asoiaf book apologists that can't see the story told in any way which disagrees with their preconceived notions of how the plot should work.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #237 on: June 18, 2014, 04:36:41 pm »
0

People hate Catelyn and I just don't get it. She's great in all incarnations, and Michelle Fairley did some of the best work on the show of all.

Well, I think Michelle Fairley was perfect, as she made me feel the same way about the character as I did in the books, maybe even to a greater extent.
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jonts26

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #238 on: June 18, 2014, 04:39:26 pm »
+2

The Tysha thing is a very valid disagreement, I believe, because you don't feel for Tyrion as much without that.  He still has a reason to go to the tower of the hand in the show, but it's not as strong.  And he's not as emotionally crushed.  Despite everything that happened, he was still very protective of his family before Jaime confessed to him.  As much as he always maintained hatred, the "family is more important than anything" dogma of Tywin was deeply ingrained.  The truth about Tysha was the ultimate betrayal, and this particular drove him to seek Tywin out.  Shae was just icing---he already knew she had betrayed him.

Plus it paves a way for a sort of self-destructive and despairing attitude for the next parts of his story.

So this is a case where it's not just that the show was different, but that it doesn't stand on its own as well.

If you can't feel for tyrion without the tysha backstory, then I don't know what to tell you. We had beautifully acted scenes of him on trial, of him talking to oberyn, etc. The rest of what you said is just projecing your book based notions on the show. Tyrion still values family above all else? The guy who has threatened his sister and threatened and assaulted his nephew? Even if that was true, why couldnt he have 'snapped' while in prison? After oberyn dies and his father sentences him to death? After the kangaroo court of a trial? See these are the kinds of justifications you would try to think of if it was presented this way in the book, but because it disagrees with how the book does it, you just say it's worse and have to talk about how much worse it is. I think the tysha backstory is heartbreaking and fantastic and all that. But it's just a drop in the puddle of asoiaf. Maybe the show would have been better with it in. Maybe not. They'd have to build up the tysha backstory. So that means they'd have to cut other scenes. There's only so much they can fit in there.
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Witherweaver

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #239 on: June 18, 2014, 04:52:52 pm »
+1

So the point is is that, in the show, once he's sprung from prison, he's elated that he's escaping.  He had given up and now he has hope again.  He even has a heartfelt goodbye with Jaime.  The sudden change to anger was a little unnatural.  It's like he had to stop and remember, oh hey, I should take care of some business before I leave.  The Tysha story explains why he's feeling angry at that moment.  (Yes, he has plenty reason to feel angry at any time in his life, but in the show nothing provoked it right then.)  After his talk with Jaime in the books, he's angry, he's hurt; he wanted vindication and he doesn't care about anything else.

The part about Tyrion valuing family is maybe only from book Tyrion.  It's hard to keep the two separate in memory. 

In general I agree with you that "hey this adaptation did this differently and therefore it must be worse" is poor logic.  It's hard to judge in this situation because I can't see the show from a position of not having read the books.  However, I do think here that his motivation was not as compelling. 
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Robz888

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #240 on: June 18, 2014, 04:58:12 pm »
0

I think Tyrion's motivations still make sense plenty without Tysha, it was just a bit unfortunate to lose his Tysha motivation, going forward. I liked him speculating about where/whether he might find her. This was not a change that really upset me, however.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #241 on: June 18, 2014, 05:02:05 pm »
+1

Am I forgetting how big a character LSH was? She wasn't really on my radar much at all. She appeared only a couple of times, right? Why is there so much love for her? I just don't get why this is a big deal to so many people.

I care much less about the exclusion of Tysha than I do about the Jaime/Tyrion parting being completely changed. I don't know where it's leading, or if they'll ever meet again, but it bugged me that this was changed. Tysha I couldn't really care about, Shae serves the same purpose.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #242 on: June 18, 2014, 05:19:03 pm »
0

It doesn't really make sense for Tyrion to get mad when Tywin calls Shae a whore.
And they actually DID build up the Tysha storyline.

Also, with Tyrion pretty much permanently thiking about Tysha in book 5, this surely isn't minor.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #243 on: June 18, 2014, 05:20:36 pm »
0

I think Tyrion's motivations still make sense plenty without Tysha, it was just a bit unfortunate to lose his Tysha motivation, going forward. I liked him speculating about where/whether he might find her. This was not a change that really upset me, however.
Without the Tysha modivation, Tyrion loses half his lines!
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #244 on: June 18, 2014, 06:06:43 pm »
+2

Also, with Tyrion pretty much permanently thinking about Tysha in book 5, this surely isn't minor.

It seems difficult to really display thoughts on the screen. 

Also would explain this:
They also cut Tysha/"She fucked Lancel, and Cattleblack and probably the Moon Boy too",

How can they really display him thinking about that throughout the following seasons?

You can add extra dialogue about stuff (they could have Jaime talking his thoughts to Ser Ilyn as Jaime practices with him), or do something.  But my point is, how do you make that into the TV show?  It is simple to display a characters thoughts in a book, but to do it on screen is another matter entirely.
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Watno

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [spoilers version]
« Reply #245 on: June 18, 2014, 06:54:14 pm »
0

I think going around asking people "Where do whores go?" is pretty indicative of Tyrions thoughts.

Edit: Anyway, even if there was no other way to handle this, that doesn't mean I have to like it.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 07:03:27 pm by Watno »
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