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[GendoIkari]

I think there's a mistake in the Duration article... it says that an Outpost that's played on a player's second consecutive turn will be cleaned up at the end of that turn. I believe this is wrong, because Outpost still makes you draw 3 cards instead of 5 in this case, and the drawing of cards happens after the discarding of everything... meaning that at the time you are discarding your cards, Outpost is not done doing stuff yet.

[Drab Emordnilap]

For reference:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/5397101#5397101

[ftl]

Oops. That was my mistake, sorry. Fixed.

[GendoIkari]

Oops. That was my mistake, sorry. Fixed.

Cool. Might be good to have something in there about KC+KC+3 Durations, and the fact that only one KC stays out. Of course, more generalized to Throne Room and such. Basically, a non-Duration card only stays out if it is directly modifying a Duration card.

[SirPeebles]

No, you should clean it up that same turn.  A duration card is cleaned up on the last turn during which it has an effect.  It will have no effect the next turn, so it will be cleaned up this turn.

[ftl]

No, you should clean it up that same turn.  A duration card is cleaned up on the last turn during which it has an effect.  It will have no effect the next turn, so it will be cleaned up this turn.

Um, Drab posted a clarification from Donald X.

A Duration is cleaned up when it no longer does anything. However,  you discard cards from play BEFORE you draw cards. So, Outpost still has to stay out until you've drawn 3 cards (instead of 5), because it's making you do that. And after you've drawn 3 cards, you can't go back to discarding cards from play.

[SirPeebles]

Ah.  It wasn't in that comment linked, but in an earlier one in the thread, when Donald mentions that the Outpost doesn't "know" that it will fail to give you an additional turn until your current turn is over.  That's why it won't be cleaned up.  In other words, at the moment of clean up, and hasn't yet failed to give you an additional turn.

[GendoIkari]

Ah.  It wasn't in that comment linked, but in an earlier one in the thread, when Donald mentions that the Outpost doesn't "know" that it will fail to give you an additional turn until your current turn is over.  That's why it won't be cleaned up.  In other words, at the moment of clean up, and hasn't yet failed to give you an additional turn.

I don't think this is correct. (Correct conclusion, wrong reasoning). The question of Outpost not yet "knowing" that it will fail to give another turn is related to why you do need to keep Throne Room out when you play Throne Room Outpost. But even if Outpost did know right away that it would fail to give another turn, it still wouldn't be cleaned up, because it's not done doing stuff. It still needs to be out to tell you / remind you to only draw 3 cards instead of 5.

[SirPeebles]

A Duration is cleaned up when it no longer does anything. However,  you discard cards from play BEFORE you draw cards. So, Outpost still has to stay out until you've drawn 3 cards (instead of 5), because it's making you do that. And after you've drawn 3 cards, you can't go back to discarding cards from play.

That's not quite true.  Here's the exact wording in the rules:

"Leave the card in front of you until the Clean-up Phase of the last turn in which it does something (discard it before drawing for the following turn)."

Outpost says "Take an extra turn after this one. "

I guess there's the question of when this occurs.  I guess the most literal reading agrees with Donald here.  After your turn is over, Outpost tries to make you take another turn, but then it's third sentence prevents that.  So, technically, it does something after your current turn but before your opponent to your left's next turn.  But then I can't see why it wouldn't be cleaned up until your next clean up phase.  It seems like the last thing Outpost does happens between turns.  Why wouldn't it be discarded during your opponent's clean up phase?  Why would it wait until your turn came again?

[GendoIkari]

A Duration is cleaned up when it no longer does anything. However,  you discard cards from play BEFORE you draw cards. So, Outpost still has to stay out until you've drawn 3 cards (instead of 5), because it's making you do that. And after you've drawn 3 cards, you can't go back to discarding cards from play.

That's not quite true.  Here's the exact wording in the rules:

"Leave the card in front of you until the Clean-up Phase of the last turn in which it does something (discard it before drawing for the following turn)."

Outpost says "Take an extra turn after this one. "

I guess there's the question of when this occurs.  I guess the most literal reading agrees with Donald here.  After your turn is over, Outpost tries to make you take another turn, but then it's third sentence prevents that.  So, technically, it does something after your current turn but before your opponent to your left's next turn.  But then I can't see why it wouldn't be cleaned up until your next clean up phase.  It seems like the last thing Outpost does happens between turns.  Why wouldn't it be discarded during your opponent's clean up phase?  Why would it wait until your turn came again?

In the post that was linked to in the first reply, Donald specifically says "You discard cards before drawing, so if Outpost is keeping you at 3 cards but not giving you a turn, it still has to stay out."

As for why it wouldn't be discarded during your opponent's cleanup phase, I believe that's because cleanup phase never affects anyone's cards but the current player's.

[SirPeebles]

That can't possibly be the reason though.  I mean, just look at the rules that come with Seaside.  That's not even a confusing point.  The drawing of 3 cards very clearly happens this turn, not next turn.  That's not controversial, is it?  This is why an attack like Militia has teeth.

[GendoIkari]

That can't possibly be the reason though.  I mean, just look at the rules that come with Seaside.  That's not even a confusing point.  The drawing of 3 cards very clearly happens this turn, not next turn.  That's not controversial, is it?  This is why an attack like Militia has teeth.

Of course the drawing happens this turn. Certainly no one questions that! The issue is that the drawing happens after Outpost would have been otherwise discarded. At the time that you need to decide if you should discard Outpost, it's not done doing everything it needs to do.

I do agree with you that the wording of the Duration rules seems to imply that it shouldn't matter if Outpost is completely done or not; only that Outpost cares if it's going to be done this turn or not.... I guess I'd say that the rules disagree with what Donald said in that post. Although there is, and never will be, a situation where the question comes into play.

Actually, there is another issue here... Outpost doesn't do anything at all next turn. Causing you to take an extra turn is something that happens at the end of your current turn, not something that happens next turn. So, in fact, Outpost, by the reading of the rules as you read them, really shouldn't stay out at all.

Just remembered this thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1585.0

Donald goes into more detail here about why Outpost stays out. Though again, I see how you can argue that what he says goes against the Seaside rules...

[SirPeebles]

I'm willing to accept that it stays out for the reason that "Take an extra turn after this one." is something which the card tries to do after this turn, but fails to do.

I've been bothered by the duration rule in the past ,too.  Specifically in the end game.  How do I know if I'll even have another turn?  What if the two of us are playing a game.  I play a duration card, and then you end the game next turn.  Well, then I should have cleaned up my duration card since that had been the last turn it did something.  Usually it wouldn't matter, but what if the duration card I played had been a lighthouse?  Maybe during your last turn you played a Witch, and that Curse would have broken the tie in your favor.  Or maybe that Curse would have boosted my Gardens and given me the win?