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Author Topic: An exotic opening  (Read 3696 times)

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timchen

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An exotic opening
« on: November 04, 2012, 05:42:46 am »
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Can you propose a kingdom where on 5-2, Outpost/Pearl Diver is a reasonable opening?
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DG

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2012, 08:11:14 am »
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Your opponent has opened with a saboteur and there are no other useful 3, 4 or 5 cost cards in the kingdom.
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Powerman

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2012, 09:26:48 am »
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Your opponent has opened with a saboteur and there are no other useful 3, 4 or 5 cost cards in the kingdom.

Why couldn't you open with saboteur then?
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DG

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2012, 09:32:23 am »
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Simulator suggested the outpost was 1% better.

Lets try a kingdom of pearl diver, menagerie, gardens, foedum, procession, outpost, saboteur, bank, vineyards, possession.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 09:49:33 am by DG »
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verikt

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2012, 12:24:55 pm »
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caravan conspirator menage. Even caravan consp throne room no menage.
 In general, any decent set of 2 and 3 cards make it worth opening outpost. IMO
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timchen

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2012, 03:30:14 pm »
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@DG: Are you sure in your case Outpost/Pearl Diver is better than Outpost/Nothing? Also, I meant for a kingdom where that opening is going to be a viable strategy on its own instead of being a counter to some other specific strategy.

@verikt: I think the example you mentioned does not really work. I think there opening conspirator or caravan is better than outpost.  Notice that opening outpost will hinder your ability to get to $4 cards early on quite significantly. Also obviously for your idea to work there cannot be any $2 cards better than Pearl Diver to get initially. So you really need a decent set of $3 cards that makes opening outpost worthwhile (ok... one example along this line of thought is outpost-workshop-silkroads, but the kingdom I was thinking about is a bit more interesting.)

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blueblimp

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2012, 03:55:24 pm »
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Maybe if you're going for Peddlers and there's no other +buy? The idea being to buy Pearl Divers with <=$4 until having enough in-play cards to buy Peddlers. Maybe this can be viable vs BMU if Vineyard is available.
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verikt

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2012, 04:09:09 pm »
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@DG: Are you sure in your case Outpost/Pearl Diver is better than Outpost/Nothing? Also, I meant for a kingdom where that opening is going to be a viable strategy on its own instead of being a counter to some other specific strategy.

@verikt: I think the example you mentioned does not really work. I think there opening conspirator or caravan is better than outpost.  Notice that opening outpost will hinder your ability to get to $4 cards early on quite significantly. Also obviously for your idea to work there cannot be any $2 cards better than Pearl Diver to get initially. So you really need a decent set of $3 cards that makes opening outpost worthwhile (ok... one example along this line of thought is outpost-workshop-silkroads, but the kingdom I was thinking about is a bit more interesting.)
throw in lookout peddler if you feel like it. I don't think it's significant. With a minor draw like caravan or a minor trashing like lookout you have 2 chances of drawing 4 for every one of your opponents.
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DG

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2012, 04:25:29 pm »
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Quote
@DG: Are you sure in your case Outpost/Pearl Diver is better than Outpost/Nothing?

Absolutely, but the real comparison is against Outpost/copper.
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timchen

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2012, 04:52:01 pm »
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Quote
@DG: Are you sure in your case Outpost/Pearl Diver is better than Outpost/Nothing?

Absolutely, but the real comparison is against Outpost/copper.
Really? I thought Outpost/nothing has a slight advantage on that outpost not hittable by the saboteur (~10% less likely.)
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timchen

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2012, 04:56:38 pm »
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@DG: Are you sure in your case Outpost/Pearl Diver is better than Outpost/Nothing? Also, I meant for a kingdom where that opening is going to be a viable strategy on its own instead of being a counter to some other specific strategy.

@verikt: I think the example you mentioned does not really work. I think there opening conspirator or caravan is better than outpost.  Notice that opening outpost will hinder your ability to get to $4 cards early on quite significantly. Also obviously for your idea to work there cannot be any $2 cards better than Pearl Diver to get initially. So you really need a decent set of $3 cards that makes opening outpost worthwhile (ok... one example along this line of thought is outpost-workshop-silkroads, but the kingdom I was thinking about is a bit more interesting.)
throw in lookout peddler if you feel like it. I don't think it's significant. With a minor draw like caravan or a minor trashing like lookout you have 2 chances of drawing 4 for every one of your opponents.
The point is not whether outpost is useful there or not, but whether you should buy it first shuffle or not. In the cases you mentioned it is quite possible that buying the outpost 2nd shuffle (if you can) is best. Early on it makes it too likely to get those useless $3/$2 turns.
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timchen

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2012, 04:38:00 am »
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Here's the intended solution:

real game

Basically, Scrying Pool is the key to this opening. Also, no +buy is crucial. Not sure if it works if my opponent plays more competitively though. The Swindler-Scrying Pool-Peddler-Province thing is what allows me to come back from a long deck construction time. 
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DG

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2012, 09:05:11 am »
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There's a good case to be made for opening mine/pearl diver there, especially if your opponent puts together swindler and warehouse.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 09:10:27 am by DG »
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zahlman

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2012, 05:49:11 am »
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@DG: Are you sure in your case Outpost/Pearl Diver is better than Outpost/Nothing?

PD is strictly better than a vanilla cantrip, and Outpost can't draw it dead, so I would say yes.
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timchen

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2012, 04:52:39 pm »
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@DG: Are you sure in your case Outpost/Pearl Diver is better than Outpost/Nothing?

PD is strictly better than a vanilla cantrip, and Outpost can't draw it dead, so I would say yes.
See my reply above. One potential concern is that one extra card makes the outpost less likely to be in your hand and will more often be hit by saboteur.
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DG

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Re: An exotic opening
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2012, 05:02:58 pm »
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Quote
One potential concern is that one extra card makes the outpost less likely to be in your hand and will more often be hit by saboteur.

Saboteur+treasure might beat a pure treasure deck, when it might lose to a festival+treasure deck, just because 5 cost cards are good defense when they degrade to silver.
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