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Author Topic: Insight about buying, derived from Talisman  (Read 14450 times)

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Donald X.

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Re: Insight about buying, derived from Talisman
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2012, 03:29:08 am »
+3

So, for example, I can buy a Village with Talisman in play, would-gain a copy of it via Talisman, reveal Trader, gain a Silver, then would-gain the bought Village, decline to reveal the Trader again, and gain a Village?
Yes, you could take two Villages, a Village and a Silver, a Silver and a Village, or two Silvers.
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Davio

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Re: Insight about buying, derived from Talisman
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2012, 05:16:39 am »
+4

And Village and Silver is not the same as Silver and Village (Watchtower).
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PSGarak

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Re: Insight about buying, derived from Talisman
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2012, 12:31:29 am »
+4

It appears that in Dominion speak, "a copy of card X" is basically shorthand for "a card (any card) with the same name as card X." It does not mean "a clone of card X," and it is not the opposite of "card X itself." In fact, any time you see a named reference to, e.g., Curse, you could always replace that with "a copy of Curse" and not change the meaning. "Copy" is only used when name of the card being referenced is contingent on gameplay, rather than a set part of the card's effect, but should otherwise operate the same as calling a card by name.

I can't think of anything wrong with saying that Buy targets a specific card in the supply, and then gains you a copy of that card from the supply. The Gaining part of buying is only retrieving information from the targeted specific card, not moving it, so it's allowed to track accurately even if the original target has changed location. That makes Talisman work correctly, even despite strange timings.
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gamesou

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Re: Insight about buying, derived from Talisman
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2012, 04:25:37 am »
0

I did not see this weirdness with Talisman (or it would probably say "when you gain"). You gain the Talisman copy before the regular card (although they're always the same and probably it's best if I don't make different cards with the same name).

A question came to my mind when I read this. Suppose Pearl Divers are embargoed, and that there is only one Pearl Diver remaining in the supply. If I buy a Pearl Diver with a Talisman in play, do I gain a Curse ?
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Donald X.

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Re: Insight about buying, derived from Talisman
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2012, 05:06:22 am »
+2

A question came to my mind when I read this. Suppose Pearl Divers are embargoed, and that there is only one Pearl Diver remaining in the supply. If I buy a Pearl Diver with a Talisman in play, do I gain a Curse ?
Yes; Embargo triggers on when-buy, and you bought a Pearl Diver.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Insight about buying, derived from Talisman
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2012, 05:38:10 am »
+3

It appears that in Dominion speak, "a copy of card X" is basically shorthand for "a card (any card) with the same name as card X."

Yes, there are ten (or whatever) copies of each card. None of them is the original, they are not copying each other, they are copying the cards Donald used when he was playtesting them.
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Davio

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Re: Insight about buying, derived from Talisman
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2012, 11:55:16 am »
+1

I once tried to write a post about timing in Dominion and all of the events that can trigger during the play of game - from setup (Young Witch, Colonies/Plat, Shelters, etc.) to finish (Island, Native Village, etc.), but man, that was a lot of work.

I also noticed that a lot of things in Dominion don't really exist, it was like trying to understand quantum mechanics.

You can buy a card, but never gain it.
You can even gain a card, but never get it.
You still get money from cards which are no longer there.
Cards are trying to locate cards which have been magically moved.
It's so confusing!  :D
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AJD

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Re: Insight about buying, derived from Talisman
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2012, 11:59:17 am »
0

I once tried to write a post about timing in Dominion and all of the events that can trigger during the play of game

I did one of those!
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Davio

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Re: Insight about buying, derived from Talisman
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2012, 03:29:42 pm »
0

I once tried to write a post about timing in Dominion and all of the events that can trigger during the play of game

I did one of those!
I read it, but I thought it was incomplete.
But then I found out that trying to be complete made that the post wouldn't make a lot of sense or be very useful.

In effect, it would just be an algorithm in pseudocode that isn't readable by humans anymore.  ;D
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bulova

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Re: Insight about buying, derived from Talisman
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2013, 11:00:10 am »
0

Argh Argh Argh.

I actually understand how Talisman works with unique cards and with "the last card"

It's clear to me that Talisman gains the "copy" when the card is bought but before the card is gained from the purchase. And in the case of "unique-card" or "last-card", if another effect deflects the gain, the bought card is still sitting there ready to be gained as the purchase resolves.

But I have to say that for a LONG time, my group was allowing extra gains from a Black Market purchase. This because the text on Talisman doesn't refer to the supply, just to the card being purchased. We felt that the Black Market "dealer" had a line on where these not-in-supply cards came from...and a Black Market stock of 10 or 12 of each (even though we did take the "marker card" out of the Black Market deck once a card was purchased). We only countermanded this when the card was Unique (which was the case for purchasable cards only in Dark Ages.

It takes reading the THIRD SENTENCE of the rulebook description of Talisman before the directive "comes from the Supply" is given. (By the way, in the base game rulebook, not only is "Supply" not specifically defined, but it also randomly appears with the initial letter capitalized, and without.)

However, I still think the combo (and therefore the game, itself) is more fun if we continue to allow the Talisman to copy a purchase from the Black Market.
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werothegreat

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Re: Insight about buying, derived from Talisman
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2013, 08:39:07 am »
0

What if Talisman said "After you buy and gain a card, gain a copy of it."  That way buying applies to the specific card selected, and Talisman still works.
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