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Author Topic: Market Square and on-trash effects  (Read 6931 times)

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kn1tt3r

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Market Square and on-trash effects
« on: October 29, 2012, 08:27:23 am »
+1

I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, but just for claritiy:

If I trash for example a Cultist, and one of the three cards I draw is Market Square - can I reveal it to gain a gold?

The point is, if you have Cultist, Market Square and a trasher in hand, and you trash Cultist, you should be allowed to choose which effect is triggered first (since there are 2 effects happening at the same time). So you can first gain a Gold, then draw cards, or you can draw cards and then reveal Market Square.

Now, since your opponents cannot know whether you've had the Market Square before or whether you've just drawn it, you should be allowed to reveal it for Gold either way. Right? Or is this some weird case of fair play, reveal hands or whatever that's not exactly covered by the rules?
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Qvist

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2012, 08:55:56 am »
0

You are allowed to reveal and discard the newly drawn Market Square to gain a Gold.
See here.
This thread even shows that you can even trash your whole hand with Count/Forge/Chapel and you trashed any of Rats/Cultist/Overgrown Estate and this causes you to draw a Market Square you can reveal and discard it to gain a Gold - even though it's clear it wasn't in your hand before.
That's because Market Square and Cultist trigger at the same time and you can choose the order, same like Moat + Secret Chamber.

kn1tt3r

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2012, 09:02:49 am »
0

Ok, thanks.

It still feels weird because even though you can choose which one of several effects triggers first, there has to be a choice in the first place. And that's not the case if you don't have Market Square in hand when the other effect is triggered.

But yeah, ruleswise it's probably the least problematic solution to handle it the way you described.
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lespeutere

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2012, 05:56:09 am »
+2

Expanding on kn1tt3r's question:
We know we can reveal market square after drawing 3 cards when we trash cultist.
What if I have 1 card X in my drawing pile, discard is empty and I trash 1 cultist with a chapel and reveal 1 market square (I have 1 in total): Am I allowed to reveal market square, gain a gold, draw 3 cards and reveal market square (which I just redrew after the "reshuffle") again to gain a gold?
The reason to not be allowed to do it would be that I need to decide in which order I resolve the trashing (i.e. [+3 cards first] or [reveal MS and gain gold] first, and I am not allowed to resolve it in a [reveal MS/gain gold] - [+3 cards] - [reveal MS/gain gold] fashion, especially for the same MS.
The reason to allow this would be: What if I have another MS in my discard pile and I resolve [reveal MS/gain gold] - [+3 cards] and draw exactly 1 MS. I cannot know whether it's the one I revealed before and should be allowed to reveal this one independently from the first one.

My assumption is it doesn't matter whether I know which MS it is and I have to decide whether I reveal my MSs (easier example would've been: I have 2 in hand and want to reveal 1 before, 1 after [+3 cards]) first or draw cards first. Correct?
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enquerencia

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2012, 06:26:42 am »
0

I'm having trouble completely making sense of your post, and I don't think it's entirely your fault as this is a fairly complex question.  I think you're saying that if you trash the cultist and have only one card to draw, but reveal a market square from your hand before you draw, you will draw three cards, one of which is a market square, and your question is can you reveal that market square again, right?

Man.  I think so. 

Congratulations on your obscure edge case scenario.  +2 internets if this actually happened in a real game you played.

Edit: I'm specifically referring to lespeutere's post above.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 06:29:05 am by enquerencia »
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lespeutere

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2012, 06:38:17 am »
0

I'm having trouble completely making sense of your post, and I don't think it's entirely your fault as this is a fairly complex question.  I think you're saying that if you trash the cultist and have only one card to draw, but reveal a market square from your hand before you draw, you will draw three cards, one of which is a market square, and your question is can you reveal that market square again, right?

Man.  I think so. 

Congratulations on your obscure edge case scenario.  +2 internets if this actually happened in a real game you played.

Edit: I'm specifically referring to lespeutere's post above.

You got it right. Only that my conclusion is different from yours as I guess you must not reveal MS, then draw, then reveal MS again. But that's merely an educated guess.
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enquerencia

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2012, 08:17:26 am »
0

You know, I think you're right Lespeutere. You choose to reveal before you draw, so I don't think you can reveal again after you draw...

Sometimes I enjoy bizzare thought experiments about Dominion more than the (usually) more mundane realities of playing the game.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2012, 08:29:53 am »
0

You know, I think you're right Lespeutere. You choose to reveal before you draw, so I don't think you can reveal again after you draw...
The problem is, noone can tell whether you've revealed that very MS yet or whether it's another one.
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ShinKyo

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2012, 08:38:20 am »
0

You know, I think you're right Lespeutere. You choose to reveal before you draw, so I don't think you can reveal again after you draw...
The problem is, noone can tell whether you've revealed that very MS yet or whether it's another one.
And that's the point, I think. And so it should be possible cause this would be easier (for me anyway).
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lespeutere

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2012, 08:57:19 am »
0

You know, I think you're right Lespeutere. You choose to reveal before you draw, so I don't think you can reveal again after you draw...
The problem is, noone can tell whether you've revealed that very MS yet or whether it's another one.
And that's the point, I think. And so it should be possible cause this would be easier (for me anyway).

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough.
We know that you may resolve the trashing effects in any order, i.e.
a) first [reveal MS/gain gold], then [+3 cards]
b) first [+3 cards], then [reveal MS/gain gold].

When revealing MS you may reveal as many MS as you have and like. So there are two effects (revealing, drawing) and they may apply to several cards (i.e. several MS) but once the effect is dealt with, you must not repeat it - i.e. once you have revealed at least 1 MS and then drawn cards, you must not repeat revealing MS as you have already done this. And the effect may apply to several cards but you must not split an effect.
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ShinKyo

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2012, 09:11:51 am »
0

You know, I think you're right Lespeutere. You choose to reveal before you draw, so I don't think you can reveal again after you draw...
The problem is, noone can tell whether you've revealed that very MS yet or whether it's another one.
And that's the point, I think. And so it should be possible cause this would be easier (for me anyway).

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough.
We know that you may resolve the trashing effects in any order, i.e.
a) first [reveal MS/gain gold], then [+3 cards]
b) first [+3 cards], then [reveal MS/gain gold].

When revealing MS you may reveal as many MS as you have and like. So there are two effects (revealing, drawing) and they may apply to several cards (i.e. several MS) but once the effect is dealt with, you must not repeat it - i.e. once you have revealed at least 1 MS and then drawn cards, you must not repeat revealing MS as you have already done this. And the effect may apply to several cards but you must not split an effect.
I know exactly what you mean. You don't split an effect. First there is the MS-effect, then the Cultist-effect and then the MS-effect of the same MS again. What is the point? To remember, with which MS you've already reacted isn't nice. Also it would be easier to program because the program doesn't have to remember which reaction-card has already triggered. Like for humans there be the only one if condition 'Is there a reaction-card in hand?'.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 09:14:01 am by ShinKyo »
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lespeutere

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2012, 09:27:37 am »
0

I know exactly what you mean. You don't split an effect. First there is the MS-effect, then the Cultist-effect and then the MS-effect of the same MS again. What is the point? To remember, with which MS you've already reacted isn't nice. Also it would be easier to program because the program doesn't have to remember which reaction-card has already triggered. Like for humans there be the only one if condition 'Is there a reaction-card in hand?'.

The difference is that you resolve MS/cultist/MS while I resolve reveal (at least 1) MS/+3 cards.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2012, 02:25:49 pm »
0

ShinKyo has it right. If you trash a Cultist, it's perfectly legal to discard one or more Market Squares as a reaction, draw 3 cards from the Cultist you trashed, then discard one or more Market Squares that you may or may not have just drawn and which may or may not be the same Market Square(s) you just discarded. This has been established elsewhere. I'll try to find the link.

EDIT: This link, which was already posted earlier in the thread, should be sufficient.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 02:28:54 pm by LastFootnote »
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lespeutere

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2012, 03:19:02 pm »
0

ShinKyo has it right. If you trash a Cultist, it's perfectly legal to discard one or more Market Squares as a reaction, draw 3 cards from the Cultist you trashed, then discard one or more Market Squares that you may or may not have just drawn and which may or may not be the same Market Square(s) you just discarded. This has been established elsewhere. I'll try to find the link.

EDIT: This link, which was already posted earlier in the thread, should be sufficient.
Well, if a comment made by ConMan is equivalent to being established, it is. DXV only answers to the original question kn1tt3r asked in the OP. He says you resolve the when-trashed effects one by one. To me, these effects are: 1) you may reveal MS, 2) +3 cards. These you may resolve in any order but not 1) reveal MS, 2) +3 cards, 3) reveal MS, because there are only 2 effects and once you've completed revealing MS, there is only +3 cards following. To ShinKyo, the effects are: 1) reveal MS1, 2) reveal MS2, 3) reveal MS3, ..., N) reveal MSN, N+1) +3 cards which may be resolved in any order.
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Brando Commando

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2012, 04:28:15 pm »
+3

I feel like the Secret Chamber/Moat interaction is a good model.

Here's the precedent: Let's say you have SC + 4 other cards in hand and a Moat on top of your deck. When an attack is played, you reveal SC and find the Moat, and return 2 cards to deck, keeping SC and Moat in hand.

Now, IIRC, you can still reveal Moat to get its protection, then reveal SC again again to return Moat back to the top of your deck.

That's a clear case where you were not choosing to order SC before Moat -- you couldn't have, since Moat wasn't even in your hand when you began to resolve SC. Yet you're still allowed to reveal Moat, which suggests that new cards put in hand during the first reaction's resolving are fair game to be revealed.

Conceptually, this suggests to me that when it is your turn to respond to an event -- e.g., an attack being played or the trashing of one of your cards -- you in fact choose when the window to stop responding to that event closes. So the first play of the SC resolves, but you are not choosing to pass priority (as they'd say in MtG, I believe) to the next player, you're keeping priority, and the event that triggered SC's reaction is still hanging in the air to be reacted to by Moat. (Likewise your second SC play.)

In the MS/Cultist example, the fact that you discarded a Market Square seems immaterial to me, given the above.
All the other reactions are multiple reveal, right? So why not Market Square?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 04:29:35 pm by Brando Commando »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2012, 04:48:38 pm »
+1

To me, these effects are: 1) you may reveal MS, 2) +3 cards. These you may resolve in any order but not 1) reveal MS, 2) +3 cards, 3) reveal MS, because there are only 2 effects and once you've completed revealing MS, there is only +3 cards following..

This is incorrect. "Effect" in this case is should be pretty clearly defined as "any card that says 'when you trash....'". If you have 2 Market Squares in hand and you trash a Cultist, 3 completely separate effects happen... 2 that are on a Market Square card, and 1 that is on the Cultist. There is no reason you can't choose to do them in the order of "Market Square, Cultist, Market Square." The fact that both Market Square effects look similar and have the same result doesn't at all mean that they are the same effect; it's 2 separate effects. Why should you have to group them all in that way?

If you agree with that example, then you should see why it can't matter if you only had 1 Market Square in hand to begin with; because how would any other player know if the second Market Square were the same one or not?
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Donald X.

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2012, 06:50:20 pm »
+7

You can trash Cultist to Altar, discard a Market Square to gain a Gold, draw your 3 cards, then discard a Market Square to gain a Gold. It could even be that the Market Square you discard the second time is the same one you discarded the first time, and you got it back into your hand when you drew those 3 cards.
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lespeutere

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2012, 07:12:47 pm »
0

You can trash Cultist to Altar, discard a Market Square to gain a Gold, draw your 3 cards, then discard a Market Square to gain a Gold. It could even be that the Market Square you discard the second time is the same one you discarded the first time, and you got it back into your hand when you drew those 3 cards.

Thanks. The question of the 2nd MS being the same as the 1st or not never mattered to me as you cannot distinguish as has been pointed out above. It was the general question whether revealing MS is allowed before AND after drawing cards or only before OR after - which is obviously solved now.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2012, 08:34:31 am »
0

Follow-up question:

When you play an Apprentice and trash a Rats, are all of these legal?

1) Draw 5 cards, reveal Market Square
2) Reveal Market Square, draw 5 cards (YES)
3) Draw 4 cards, reveal Market Square, draw 1 card?
3) Draw 1 card, reveal Market Square, draw 4 cards?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 09:03:03 am by Jimmmmm »
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Davio

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2012, 08:58:08 am »
+3

Quote from: Dark Ages Rules
The player that a "when you trash this" ability functions
for is the player that had that card, regardless of whose card trashed the card. These abilities happen
directly after the card is put into the trash, and can function in the middle of resolving effects for
an Action card

But a bit further it says
Quote from: Dark Ages Rules
When two things happen to a player at the same time, that player picks the order to do them. For
example, if a player's Rats are trashed and he has Market Square in hand, he can choose whether to
resolve the Rats' “when-trashed” ability first, or Market Square's reaction first. When two things
happen to different players at the same time, the players go in turn order, starting with the player
whose turn it is. For example, when a player plays Marauder, the other players gain Ruins cards in
turn order.

So MS's reaction has the same timing as a card's own "when-trashed" ability.
The correct order is thus: Rats and MS (you decide which first), then Apprentice.

1) No
2) Yes
3) No
4) Yes
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 09:05:07 am by Davio »
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AJD

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2012, 08:59:50 am »
0

Follow-up question:

When you play an Apprentice and trash a Rats, are all of these legal?

1) Draw 5 cards, reveal Market Square (YES)
2) Reveal Market Square, draw 5 cards (YES)
3) Draw 4 cards, reveal Market Square, draw 1 card?
3) Draw 1 card, reveal Market Square, draw 4 cards?

No, only (2) and (4) are legal. Rats' and Market Square's on-trash effect happen first, and then you finish resolving Apprentice.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2012, 09:04:14 am »
0

Oh yes, of course. I clearly need to stop thinking of Apprentice -> Rats as +5 cards.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2012, 11:20:42 am »
+2

Oh yes, of course. I clearly need to stop thinking of Apprentice -> Rats as +5 cards.

Heh, I had the same issue.

I was sitting there thinking, "No, you can't interrupt drawing 5 cards like that." Then got apoplectic seeing that #4 was legal but #3 wasn't.

Makes more sense.
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serakfalcon

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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2013, 12:45:53 pm »
0

Another market-square related question:
Do Noble brigand and Thief trigger Market Square?
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Re: Market Square and on-trash effects
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2013, 12:52:23 pm »
0

Another market-square related question:
Do Noble brigand and Thief trigger Market Square?

If you're the attacked person, naturally yes.
But I think you meant when you play NB or Thief, right?
Then I'd say no, because the MS texts says "when one of your cards is trashed"

And it would be awkward when it actually would be like that, so you can attack (Swindler would also work this way the) and gain a gold for trashing...
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