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Author Topic: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin  (Read 9121 times)

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danw132

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Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« on: August 24, 2011, 01:01:50 pm »
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I can't believe this happened to me online. I heard of this happening once before in real life- but to have this happen to me in online was just shocking. I didn't realize what kind of lock i would be found in until it was too late.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201108/24/game-20110824-094458-8f06ba68.html

The combo is demonstrated twice here:

Quote
Paralyzed plays a King's Court.
... and plays a King's Court.
... ... and plays a Goons.
... ... ... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... ... ... danw132 discards 1 card.
... ... and plays the Goons again.
... ... ... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... ... ... danw132 only has 3 cards.
... ... and plays the Goons a third time.
... ... ... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... ... ... danw132 only has 3 cards.
... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... and plays a Masquerade.
... ... ... drawing nothing.
... ... ... trashing a Silver.
... ... and plays the Masquerade again.
... ... ... drawing nothing.
... ... ... trashing a Tactician.
... ... and plays the Masquerade a third time.
... ... ... drawing nothing.

--------------------------------------------------
— Paralyzed's turn 13 —
Paralyzed plays a King's Court.
... and plays a Laboratory.
... ... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 action.
... and plays the Laboratory again.
... ... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 action.
... and plays the Laboratory a third time.
... ... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 action.
Paralyzed plays an Island.
... setting aside the Island with a Province.
Paralyzed plays a King's Court.
... and plays a Peddler.
... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action and +$1.
... and plays the Peddler again.
... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action and +$1.
... and plays the Peddler a third time.
... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action and +$1.
Paralyzed plays a Laboratory.
... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 action.
Paralyzed plays a Peddler.
... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action and +$1.
Paralyzed plays a Peddler.
... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action and +$1.
Paralyzed plays a Laboratory.
... drawing nothing and getting +1 action.
Paralyzed plays a Peddler.
... drawing nothing and getting +1 action and +$1.
Paralyzed plays a Bishop.
... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
... Paralyzed trashes a Peddler and gets +4 ▼.
... danw132 trashes a Bishop.
Paralyzed plays a King's Court.
... and plays a King's Court.
... ... and plays a King's Court.
... ... ... and plays a Goons.
... ... ... ... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... ... ... ... danw132 only has 2 cards.
... ... ... and plays the Goons again.
... ... ... ... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... ... ... ... danw132 only has 2 cards.
... ... ... and plays the Goons a third time.
... ... ... ... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... ... ... ... danw132 only has 2 cards.
... ... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... ... and plays a Masquerade.
... ... ... ... drawing nothing.
... ... ... and plays the Masquerade again.
... ... ... ... drawing nothing.
... ... ... and plays the Masquerade a third time.
... ... ... ... drawing nothing.
... ... ... ... trashing a Silver.
... ... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... ... but plays no action with it.
... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... but plays no action with it.
... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... but plays no action with it.

Utterly embarrassing on my part. Anyone else ever lose to a pin/hand deletion like that before?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2011, 01:14:55 pm »
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Yeah, this one is probably the best known. http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/03/18/combo-of-the-day-24-kings-courtgoonsmasquerade/
Has anyone ever BEATEN this before? I came very close a couple weeks ago, and probably would have if I were smart enough to have depleted the estates when I had the chance.

michaeljb

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2011, 01:33:34 pm »
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Has anyone ever BEATEN this before?

Yup. I remember reading Donald's original post in response to this combo, and he had a link to such a game:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110317-174854-4740b9ba.html

Here's Donald's article in his special subforum:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=76.0
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rogerclee

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danw132

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2011, 01:45:20 pm »
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PMJ is my new hero.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2011, 01:57:19 pm »
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michaeljb, I mean the full version with the full lock - militia or especially Goons included.

rod-

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2011, 02:27:10 pm »
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Not particularly proud of this game, but...was behind 4-1 on colonies so i took an alternate route...

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110728-154316-87a6fcea.html

It's actually kind of funny to look at the score / turn graph, which clearly has issues with masquerade.  It says my final score was -53 (because i trashed his 5 colonies and 3 estates)

My original goal was not to pin him, but when i reached the point where the game was clearly lost, I realized that i had the engine already in place and just needed to trash a few superfluous cards.  He got very confused when i passed him my colony.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 02:34:44 pm by rod- »
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Superdad

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2011, 02:36:42 pm »
0

The above post is a valid post. The others posted above aren't true pin games.

When you don't have either goons or militia, the strategy can be countered by saving your own masquerade and passing him junk (and more importantly, disrupting his 5-card deck.

However, with miltia in the mix, it's a race to see who gets the 5-card deck first, afterwhich the other person is pinned.
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philosophyguy

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2011, 03:16:34 pm »
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I lost to that pin earlier today. Most demoralizing experience ever.

The only way I can see someone beating it is if the person performing the pin has bad shuffle luck (e.g., a hand of KC/KC/KC/KC/Goons) and the other player has built enough of a deck to be able to recover. In other words: odds aren't good.

On a productive note: would adding a clause to Masquerade to the effect of "if you have no cards in your hand, no players pass cards" introduce problems? I can't think of a reason that the card shouldn't include that caveat, and it would solve this problem entirely. (Obviously I'm not referring to reasons like "the card is already printed"—I'm looking for gameplay reasons why this would be a bad variant.)
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2011, 03:24:44 pm »
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In order to do the pin properly, you shouldn't have 4 KCs, 'cause then maybe you can't do it. you need KC+ KC or TR or a village + Goons or Militia + an indefinite number of cantrips + up to one other action, and nothing else.
Also, it IS possible to beat the pin even when in place by having a big enough lead, big enough deck, and the ability to run piles (curses!), as you can always buy a 0 cost.

rrenaud

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2011, 03:26:35 pm »
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On a productive note: would adding a clause to Masquerade to the effect of "if you have no cards in your hand, no players pass cards" introduce problems? I can't think of a reason that the card shouldn't include that caveat, and it would solve this problem entirely. (Obviously I'm not referring to reasons like "the card is already printed"—I'm looking for gameplay reasons why this would be a bad variant.)

Donald says he probably would have nerfed it if he saw it during playtesting.
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michaeljb

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2011, 05:53:23 pm »
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michaeljb, I mean the full version with the full lock - militia or especially Goons included.
whoops, overlooked that part. The only thing I can think of that could fight back would be an engine involving some Caravans and/or Wharves that was running before the lock went down, so you could still do things on your turn.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2011, 08:02:31 pm »
+1

The moral of this story is to pay attention and think carefully before playing a preset Kingdom.  It has become second nature to me to check to see it the Kingdom is random as there are other people out there, not just this [jerk], who indeed find a board with a winning strategy and repeatedly use it on unwary players.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 06:03:34 pm by theory »
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
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Superdad

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2011, 08:56:46 am »
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michaeljb, I mean the full version with the full lock - militia or especially Goons included.
whoops, overlooked that part. The only thing I can think of that could fight back would be an engine involving some Caravans and/or Wharves that was running before the lock went down, so you could still do things on your turn.

You still wouldn't be able to do much. Caravan would draw 1 card? A few would draw 2 or so. You really aren't buying anything with that, and the pin deck is still trashing 3 cards of yours a turn. The only way you could escape is if you already have points (bishop/monument), and you were somehow able to quickly empty 3 piles (probably curses, estates and something else).

Outside of those extremely small examples, if this strategy is on the board, it will likely be a race to get to your 5-card deck the fastest. First one there, wins.
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Kirian

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2011, 05:16:45 pm »
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The moral of this story is to pay attention and think carefully before playing a preset Kingdom.  It has become second nature to me to check to see it the Kingdom is random as there are other people out there, not just this [jerk], who indeed find a board with a winning strategy and repeatedly use it on unwary players.

Especially given that the ability to view constraints came about mainly because of the discovery of this pin.

But yeah, I always look at the constraints, and generally won't play vs constraints other than one or two !s.  (I won't play Possession games online any longer, so I can understand people who wouldn't want Goons or Black Market...)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 06:03:44 pm by theory »
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2011, 06:07:19 pm »
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Out of the thousands of online game I have played I have never seen the natural combo of Masq/KC/(goons/militia).  That is probably statistically unlikely, but I think that the majority of people hit by this combo have been set up.
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2011, 06:14:47 pm »
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I looked it up.  4 games out of 4248.  Statistically infinitesimal.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2011, 06:28:36 pm »
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I've been hit by it popping up naturally, and I've been hit by my opponent pulling all three parts out of the black market before. Talk about unlikely.

Glooble

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2011, 06:58:58 pm »
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I played a game where it came up naturally, I tried to go for it but forgot how, but succeeded in reminding my opponent of its existence, then got stomped by it. It was embarrassing.
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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2011, 07:31:26 pm »
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To beat the lock you probably need reactions, lighthouse would help assuming you have reactions so you might actually play it. A deck that spams horse traders and lighthouses and also gets KCs would probably be best.
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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2011, 09:33:00 pm »
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The funniest counter to this would be possession.
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The Adventurer

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2011, 11:55:54 pm »
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Lol@ possessing the pinner... very good stuff lol
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AJD

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2011, 01:26:20 am »
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I got challenged by "Paralyzed" just now. Fortunately having seen this thread already, I knew what was coming and hit the combo first. Now I've got that out of my system.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110825-221855-bf6eab92.html
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 11:41:35 am by AJD »
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jonts26

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2011, 01:51:13 am »
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I too got to do the 'Paralyzed Challenge.' Suffice it to say I did it better.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201108/25/game-20110825-224230-1713f73a.html
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The Adventurer

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Re: Goons/KC/Masq-Hand Deletion/Infinite Pin
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2011, 01:44:27 pm »
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Good job to both of you! I hope I'll get such a challenge in the near future and honor this thread too!
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