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Author Topic: Conlanging  (Read 10046 times)

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Ozle

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Re: Conlanging
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2012, 12:51:11 pm »
+1

"friend kept only on the off chance you might have sex someday."

What is this word?

Im my circles its called 'Ozle'
*winks*
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Conlanging
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2012, 12:51:41 pm »
+1

I think the next game of mafia should be played exclusively in wero's language.  With modkilling penalties for grammatical mistakes.
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werothegreat

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Re: Conlanging
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2012, 01:11:50 pm »
+1

"friend kept only on the off chance you might have sex someday."

What is this word?

Ilbasamga.  Pronounced "ill-bah-SAHM-gah."
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blueblimp

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Re: Conlanging
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2012, 01:30:28 pm »
0

My disinterest in conlanging is similar to my ambivalent feelings toward learning new languages: By learning a language, I haven't gained access to new ways of thinking so much as I've gained access people with new ways of thinking.

Sapir-Whorf hypothesis?  I do think differently when I use a different language.  The easiest demonstration of this is how different programming languages also can compel different thinking patterns (see, e.g., Lisp vs Java).
I don't know about your main point, but I wouldn't put too much trust into an analogy to programming languages. Programming languages are far more rigid than natural languages, so if you want to express something that's not easy in the language, you're best off thinking differently. In a natural language, you can freely adapt existing vocabulary and grammar to fit what you're trying to say, provided listeners can still understand you.
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werothegreat

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Re: Conlanging
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2012, 01:33:06 pm »
+1

I think the biggest disproof to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is not having the words to describe something - the feeling where you know exactly what something is like, but language has failed you, thus suggesting that language does not have purview on how you think.  This is most often the case with smells.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Conlanging
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2012, 03:39:39 pm »
0

I think the biggest disproof to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is not having the words to describe something - the feeling where you know exactly what something is like, but language has failed you, thus suggesting that language does not have purview on how you think.  This is most often the case with smells.

I don't think that's disproof.  Did you read the Piraha tribe article I linked?  It is seriously super interesting.  One thing they talk about is how this tribe does not seem to have numbers in their language, and this ends up affecting their ability to track amounts.  They did an experiment where they puts objects into a container and then took out objects one by one, asking the people if any objects were left.  They would be fine when something like 1-3 objects were there, but above that the people could not track it.
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cayvie

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Re: Conlanging
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2012, 04:00:23 pm »
+3

I guess the hard part is creating new words that aren't just translations from existing words in another language.

Like in the Dominion rulebook: The look shared between two people when one wants the other to do something, but he doesn't want to say it.

Well, most of your words are just going to be translations, but words in different languages have different scopes - in English, "bear" can mean an animal, or it can mean "to carry."  Obviously you wouldn't have one word in another language that means both of those things - you'd spread them out into multiple words.  English is just sort of weird like this.

Though I do have words in my language for "impossible mutual infatuation", "to unhealthily obsess over," and "friend kept only on the off chance you might have sex someday."

you created an entire language to translate my livejournal entries from 2001??
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Ozle

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Re: Conlanging
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2012, 04:02:45 pm »
+1

I guess the hard part is creating new words that aren't just translations from existing words in another language.

Like in the Dominion rulebook: The look shared between two people when one wants the other to do something, but he doesn't want to say it.

Well, most of your words are just going to be translations, but words in different languages have different scopes - in English, "bear" can mean an animal, or it can mean "to carry."  Obviously you wouldn't have one word in another language that means both of those things - you'd spread them out into multiple words.  English is just sort of weird like this.

Though I do have words in my language for "impossible mutual infatuation", "to unhealthily obsess over," and "friend kept only on the off chance you might have sex someday."

you created an entire language to translate any livejournal entries from 2001??

Ftfy.
Any blog around that time were generally like that!
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Brando Commando

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Re: Conlanging
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2012, 04:13:35 pm »
0

I think the biggest disproof to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is not having the words to describe something - the feeling where you know exactly what something is like, but language has failed you, thus suggesting that language does not have purview on how you think.  This is most often the case with smells.

I don't think that's disproof.  Did you read the Piraha tribe article I linked?  It is seriously super interesting.  One thing they talk about is how this tribe does not seem to have numbers in their language, and this ends up affecting their ability to track amounts.  They did an experiment where they puts objects into a container and then took out objects one by one, asking the people if any objects were left.  They would be fine when something like 1-3 objects were there, but above that the people could not track it.

You know, I'm not totally against Sapir-Whorf, and actually, I'm happy you linked to that article because I've been meaning to reread it for years. (You and I seem to have similar interests...) It is super-interesting and great proof for relativistic linguistics (right term? something like that), I admit.

If anything -- and I tried to emphasize this when I brought up this critique -- it's not the possibility of relativistic linguistics I opened this argument with ... it's more like, as I understand it, Sapir-Whorf has a bad rep even if you believe in this kind of thing.

There was a NYT magazine article a few years ago on new approaches to relativist linguistics, and it mentioned a lot of interesting, subtle ways that your native language can make you see reality somewhat differently, but on a pretty small scale that you might not notice much, not anything nearly as sweeping as, "Inuits have many words for snow, so they see the world much differently."

Anyway, I'd like to hear from somebody with real roots in linguistics what they think about the Piraha article -- I mean, yes, it's pretty incredible evidence, but it's also just one article, and I've never heard anything about it since.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 04:14:48 pm by Brando Commando »
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werothegreat

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Re: Conlanging
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2012, 05:03:20 pm »
+1

I think the biggest disproof to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is not having the words to describe something - the feeling where you know exactly what something is like, but language has failed you, thus suggesting that language does not have purview on how you think.  This is most often the case with smells.

I don't think that's disproof.  Did you read the Piraha tribe article I linked?  It is seriously super interesting.  One thing they talk about is how this tribe does not seem to have numbers in their language, and this ends up affecting their ability to track amounts.  They did an experiment where they puts objects into a container and then took out objects one by one, asking the people if any objects were left.  They would be fine when something like 1-3 objects were there, but above that the people could not track it.

I would consider that more an insight on how culture affects language, rather than how language affects thought.
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rspeer

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Re: Conlanging
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2012, 05:57:10 am »
0

Indeed, as far as I know the general linguistic consensus on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis -- though there are still arguments to one side or the other -- is:

* The strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (you can only think things you can express in your language) is loony.
* The weak Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (your language affects the way you think) is probably true, and there are some experiments where you can draw it out, but dang it's weak. You expect it to affect a lot more things than it does.

It's interesting that it comes up so much in the context of conlangs. I guess a lot of people want to try to get a Sapir-Whorf effect on themselves, by learning a language with interestingly different assumptions in it. But then, if you're interested in the language, you might already be prone to think that way. (Does Lojban make you think like a mathematician or a computer, or do people who enjoy thinking like mathematicians and computers learn Lojban?)
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Davio

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Re: Conlanging
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2012, 06:49:17 am »
0

The weak Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is quite weak and also doesn't show the entire picture.

I mean, the way you think is affected way more by your upbringing, culture, environment, genetics, etc...
How big a part does language play in this? Language itself is also based on all of these aspects.

So it's a pretty useless hypothesis, I mean, is language the result or is language the cause? It's integral, so it's probably both.
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werothegreat

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Re: Conlanging
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2012, 10:44:07 am »
+1

What came first, Newspeak, or Sapir-Whorf?
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jonts26

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Re: Conlanging
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2013, 01:14:45 pm »
0

For those interested in conlanging, this AMA is worth a read.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1chmc4/eseneziri_im_david_peterson_the_creator_of_the/
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