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[sandstorm]

So after reading RisingJaguars thoughts in this thread http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.175 and encountering a unique situation IRL I wanted to ask the community what the consensus use of Steward is on the following Turn 3 situations.

Case 1:
You open Potion/Steward in a Familiar game.  Your turn 3 hand is Estate/Estate/Copper/Steward/Potion.

This is the scenario that occurred to me IRL.  I took the +2 coin option to get myself a Familiar but it wasn't an easy decision.  Trashing 2 estates is a powerful turn 3 move.  In retrospect I think I maybe should have risked the +2 card option to get the extra early cycling.

Case 2:
This is a relatively more common Steward hand.  Your turn 3 hand is Copper/Copper/Copper/Copper/Steward

In this scenario I would almost never trash.  The only way I would trash I if I am building an engine out of cheap components.  But after reading RJ's thoughts I am second guessing myself. Typically I would play +2 coin if I opened with another action and take a gold or a power 5 (Witch/Mountebank power level) if it was available.  If I didn't open with another action I would play +2 cards and buy a power 5, gold, or curse my luck that I drew 2 estates.

Case 3:
Next, your turn 3 hand is Estate/Copper/Copper/Copper/Steward

In this scenario I would always trash unless a power 5 is present.  If there is a power 5 I would take the +2 coin option

Case 4:
Lastly, your turn 3 hand is Estate/Estate/Copper/Silver/Steward

If there is no power 5 then I would trash double Estate all day every day.  But again, if there is a power 5 available I would probably take the +2 coin.


Maybe I should have titled this thread Request: Steward Article.  Anyways, any thoughts are appreciated 

[ftl]

I think in the case of Steward/Potion/C/EE, I probably take the familiar; in the case of S/CCCC, I would probably always trash, unless there's Goons or Border Village+Torturer on the table or something.

In the case of a power 5 and Steward/E/CCC, I would still always trash. You'll get $5 soon enough anyway, $5 isn't a tough mark to hit with a Steward/Silver open.

[aaron0013]

I'm obviously not the best player in the world, but I have been playing with Steward for a year and a half, and I would probably trash in all of these situations....especially if I was going for an engine.  In the Familiar case, it seems like it would be a good move to make your deck smaller so you can get the potion around more often and trash curses more often. 

I don't know, maybe I over-do it a bit on the trashing, but I almost never take the coins till I have everything trashed that I want trashed.  Anyone else here the same way?

[jsh357]

Case 1: I will take the Familiar early in most cases.  Being unable to trash Estates is bad, but losing the Curse war is likely even worse.

Case 2: Depends on the kingdom, and yes, it's a tough choice.  Do you really need the Gold?  If you do, take it.  If there are better sources of money (Conspirators or something), trash.  In most cases I don't think I'd take a power 5 here unless it's a Curser like you mentioned.

Case 3, 4: Almost always trash. Missing a power 5 is just not as critical as you'd think a lot of the time. 

[popsofctown]

The issues isn't that trashing is so much better than +coin, it's that if the +coin is better than trashing coppers you probably shouldn't have bought Steward in the first place.

[aaron0013]

The issues isn't that trashing is so much better than +coin, it's that if the +coin is better than trashing coppers you probably shouldn't have bought Steward in the first place.

I would think that trashing 2 cards would be almost always better than +$2. At least at the beginning of the game.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Case 1: I will take the Familiar early in most cases.  Being unable to trash Estates is bad, but losing the Curse war is likely even worse.

If you skip Familiar this shuffle, you're losing out on one play of Familiar. (You can't fail to get 3P on the next shuffle if you've trashed 2 Estates.) However, you've removed 2 dead cards from your deck, so the opponent's first 2 curses are just getting you back to your starting ten cards. I think I would trash here every time.

[popsofctown]

The issues isn't that trashing is so much better than +coin, it's that if the +coin is better than trashing coppers you probably shouldn't have bought Steward in the first place.

I would think that trashing 2 cards would be almost always better than +$2. At least at the beginning of the game.

Not anymore true than Chapel improving every deck.

[Powerman]

[popsofctown]

My mind
It's been blown.

[ftl]

Case 1: I will take the Familiar early in most cases.  Being unable to trash Estates is bad, but losing the Curse war is likely even worse.

If you skip Familiar this shuffle, you're losing out on one play of Familiar. (You can't fail to get 3P on the next shuffle if you've trashed 2 Estates.) However, you've removed 2 dead cards from your deck, so the opponent's first 2 curses are just getting you back to your starting ten cards. I think I would trash here every time.

Huh. Good point, you're probably right.

[popsofctown]

Case 1: I will take the Familiar early in most cases.  Being unable to trash Estates is bad, but losing the Curse war is likely even worse.

If you skip Familiar this shuffle, you're losing out on one play of Familiar. (You can't fail to get 3P on the next shuffle if you've trashed 2 Estates.) However, you've removed 2 dead cards from your deck, so the opponent's first 2 curses are just getting you back to your starting ten cards. I think I would trash here every time.

Huh. Good point, you're probably right.

I don't follow it.  If you get that early familiar, you get to play it once during the third deck-go-through, once during the fourth deck-go-through, and once during the fourth deck-go-through at least.  Buying a Familiar the next reshuffle isn't a rationalization because you would have bought an additional Familiar anyway.

[O]

First case I would probably trash 2 estates:

1) Leaner deck
2) Can use steward for +cards next shuffle for guaranteed 3P and even better cycling.
3) will be able to collide steward with curses far more frequently.

You lose the curse split 4-6 probably but trash more on the way and get a slightly better average hand value. If you split 5-5 you smile and cruise to victory.

[Qvist]

I agree with RisingJaguar here. When you open Steward, you want it for trashing, therefore trashing is important. If you want that $5 or $6 card so badly, you could have opened Silver. So mostly, no matter what I draw with Steward I mostly use the trashing option.

But the Potion / Steward / Copper / Estate / Estate case with Familiar on the board is really interesting. I think that's a typical case of "depending on the kingdom". I think the question you should ask yourself is what happens after the curses are gone. Is it a more Big Money like game with Familiar, then winning the curse split is probably more important and you should buy it on turn 3. But let's say Goons are on the board too or you want to build some other engine, then trashing is really important.

[aaron0013]

Yay, I'm not the only one!  Go trashing!!!

[DG]

Consider a 3 player game where the best strategy involves torturers and treasure, quite strong and not uncommon, and you decide to open with a steward. In this sort of game there is a lot of speed lost from trashing too heavily and acceleration is needed to get the first torturer and gold. So in general, it all depends upon the kingdom!

[ehunt]

There was a side-question: if you decide not to trash, 2 cards or 2 coins? I'm all for risk-taking, and I see too few people doing it with pawn in particular, but I think with StEECP I would not do +2 cards - you have a 2/7 chance of forfeiting the game with that move for a 2-card cycling benefit; it doesn't seem worth it. StECCP on the other hand I would definitely do +2 cards.

[jomini]

If I buy steward, I likely really want the trashing already. I do make exception for goons, getting it early is a few points and more importantly can significantly delay the other guy getting goons; it is also particularly strong if there are good 2s and 3s out (so he can't steward away cards and buy useful stuff).

Familiar, I'm inclined to trash it. Assume a complete mirror up to this decision point. The first player trashes and is down 2 cards. Assuming we will both eventually trash all our curses and estates, estates are functionally no different than curses. This means it takes 3 shuffles for the first player to fall behind the guy who buys the an earlier (additional) familiar. Yeah, if you are a bit unlucky you lose the curse split 7/3 in a mirror so it isn't an surefire call, but I lean towards trashing a priori.

[RisingJaguar]

Steward does provide excellent flexibility, but that flexibility shouldn't be used at the start all that often.  The flexibility should be used when trashing isn't as important anymore (Assuming it was important at the start).  We all know we have to manage our terminals, especially in a BM setting.  It puts players in a serious disadvantage if they aim for BM with a steward that's used as a silver in nearly every case. 

Everyone hit on most of the trashing points.  Things to add:

Case 1. The benefit of being able to play multiple familiars is deadly.  If we have two players, say chapel-> BMish and Chapel -> familiar.  Normally chapel eliminates familiars ability.  Suddenly, when a chapelled deck can play multiple familiars against a BM deck, which cannot reliably connect trasher + curses, it does damage.

Case 2: Only time i'd consider Gold (or a power card), is if I opened steward/steward.  This would be a time when I would need to balance engine building components.  Trashing vs. non+buy gaining of engine parts. Then again, I'd probably make that decision if engine parts gaining was important, steward/steward would be pretty bad in that scenario. 

In short, Steward is amazing (that's a little bit of an overstatement, but I do love it).  However, your T3/T4 actions with steward, should be predetermined essentially. 

[RisingJaguar]

One last thing to generally consider, especially for remake/steward which are "must trash two" cards, is the ability to purchase cheap cantrips. 

With this, it can get really frustrating during mid-game when you have similar tough choices to make between marginal trashing and marginal gains.  It's an awkward spot, often caused by only being able to purchase silver with $3.  Except this time, trashing often isn't as important anymore.  The cheap cantrips will also allow you to cycle the trasher more often to facilitate your engine needs. 

Having cards to avoid that, say village, menagerie, can help line up cards that want to be trashed.

[zporiri]

i would trash in every scenario, except for scenario 1, for which im not sure. if the other player didnt open potion, then i would trash and wait on the familiar. but if he didnt open potion in a familar game, he probably isn't going to win anyways and it wont matter what you do...lol. i think i would be tempted to buy the familiar here, espicially if my opponent was able to on turn 3/4.

scenario 2: ive found that trashing the 2 coppers is better than getting a gold, espicially if youre building an engine. but even otherwise, i find it better to trash. the exception being if youre going for atl VP's, in which case you probably shouldnt be trashing anyways and should not have bought the steward.

other scenarios i would trash without even hesitating.

[dondon151]

I do make exception for goons, getting it early is a few points

A few points is not going to make a difference in a Goons mega-turn game. In that case I would still be inclined to trash because you can still pretty easily hit $6 with 3 cards after a couple of cycles through your deck and you'll play your Goons more often.