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Schneau

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Beggar
« on: October 22, 2012, 10:59:04 am »
+15

Beggar


Beggar is the new Copper hipster. When we were all introduced to Dominion, we thought Coppers were cool. Who would want to trash them? Hipster Chapel, I guess. But, as time went by, we all realized that trashing Coppers was fun, and the hipsters started saying they liked Chapel before it was cool. Now the hipsters are back into Copper, and Beggar is their new retro king.

Before considering how to use it, let's take a look at what Beggar does. The action part is pretty simple, right? Gain 3 Coppers into your hand. But, it's more subtle than that. Beggar can be seen as a terminal Gold that comes with the drawback of three more Coppers in your deck. The reaction part of Beggar gains you two Silvers, one on top of your deck. This is also more subtle than it looks, and depends on what Attack card it is reacting to, as we will discuss in a bit.

As an Action
So, when would you want to use Beggar? Didn't we all learn long ago that Coppers are bad? Well, yes, they are bad in many engines. But, as most things in Dominion, it isn't as simple as that and it depends on the kingdom. Even in a thin engine, there may be a time and place for Beggar.

The thing to realize about Beggar is that $3 on a terminal Action is really good, especially on a $2 card. With a terminal Gold, it is easy to hit $5, $6, and even $7 on early hands, making it easier to get those important high-cost cards. The only downside is that you now have Copper clogging your deck. So, if you can play it in situations when you don't mind the extra Copper, it can be fantastic.

Another general use for Beggar is as a late-game buy to keep your money going strong as you start to green. If you can pick up a Beggar with an extra buy when you expect to see it only once or twice more until the end of the game, it can be used as a terminal Gold without worrying about the Coppers hurting your deck too much. In non-trimmed decks, this can make all the difference in hitting $8 more often than your opponent, and in thinned engine decks, it can boost you to $16 for the all-important double Province or $13 for Province + Duchy.

Early Beggars aren't good in straight Big Money or BM+draw decks - they conflict with drawing terminals, and aren't good enough on their own since the Coppers slow things down a bit too much. They also aren't good early in engines, where they put too many Coppers between important engine parts. As mentioned above, Beggar can be worthwhile later in both of these types of decks as a boost to large payoffs. In Curse or Ruins slogs where you aren't as worried about a few extra Coppers, Beggar can be more effective early, since it can help buy important Attack cards and Provinces and Duchies later. Additionally, Beggar's reaction provides a benefit when hit by the Attack cards that are slowing down the game.

One situation when extra Coppers don't hurt much is if you aiming for alternative Victory cards. Gardens are a natural fit, since playing Beggar allows you to gain 4 cards on a turn and all but guarantees enough money for a Gardens (see below for more detailed analysis). Beggar works decently well with other alt-VPs, namely Silk Road and Duke, and possibly Feodum if your opponents are going heavy on the Attacks. These strategies require a heavy density of Beggars, which is probably easiest to achieve if there is a source of cheap +Buy, especially if it is non-terminal such as Hamlet, Worker's Village, Forager, or Market Square. In these games you will want to load up on 4 or 5 Beggars, and then start hitting the Victory cards. Note that in games without cheap +Buy, these strategies will more likely end up being slogs than rushes.

Specific Card Combos
Some Action cards don't mind having a pile of Coppers around. Apothecary might be the strongest combo here, where Beggar can be the terminal after an Apothecary chain. The Apothecaries will just sweep up those extra Coppers to easily get to Province or Colony range. Non-terminal +Buy would definitely help here, both for Apothecary+ buys as well as Province+ buys.

Similarly, Counting House can be a good partner in an otherwise mediocre kingdom - you can easily get more than enough Coppers in your deck to get Colonies. Also, since Begger is a terminal Gold, it is easy to hit early $5 to get the Counting Houses. This should come with the usual caveat that Counting House is not a good card, and should only be attempted if no strong strategies are present.

Bank can also be one of Beggar's best friends (which is sort of ironic when you think about it). Bank has several properties that make it work well with Beggar. It is a Treasure, so you can play Beggar and Bank on the same turn without a village (unlike Counting House and Coppersmith). Beggars can help hit the high $7 cost early in the game. Plus, each time you play a Beggar and a Bank in the same hand, you are already guaranteed $7, which means you just need a Copper more to hit Province.

Gardens may be Beggars most powerful combo. Unlike just about any other board, it may be optimal to buy a straight Victory card on turn 1 or 2 with the opening Gardens/Beggar. This allows you to get a jump on the Gardens pile to almost guarantee an even split of the Gardens, if not a split in your favor. According to simulations performed by DStu, just buying Gardens / (Estate when Gardens are low) / Beggar / Copper wins against a basic Workshop / Gardens bot 80% of the time. When your opponent is not rushing the Gardens, you should buy Duchies once the Gardens are gone to help 3-pile and get more VP. This wins against a DoubleJack bot 75% of the time.

Even though Coppersmith + Beggar intuitively seems like it would work well, I think most of the time it will end up being more of a nombo than a combo. Coppersmith likes Coppers, but more of the time it prefers you just draw your starting Coppers on the same turn you play Coppersmith, not that you actually gain extra Coppers. Playing village then Beggar then Coppersmith is doable, though unlikely. And once you have played Beggar a few times, the extra Coppers make it difficult to line up your village + draw + Coppersmith for the big hands. If you are playing Beggar a lot, you may be able to expect at least 3 Coppers in hand with your Coppersmith, though you will be unlikely to hit the necessary 4 for a Province.

A few other cards may combo decently depending on the board. Stables will enjoy guaranteed Coppers to discard, though the Copper flood will limit the ability to build an engine. Philosopher's Stone, like Gardens, likes a thick deck and may be a decent option, especially with other Potion-cost cards present. If you have a Trader in hand, you can Beggar for 3 Silvers, albiet ones that go to your discard pile instead of your hand. Counterfeit, Moneylender, and Spice Trader can all trash Coppers for benefit, though in most cases it won't be worthwhile to go Beggar if you want to trash down your Coppers.

As mentioned earlier, Beggar can boost you into the expensive card zone early on, with Bank being the star of the show. Additionally, expensive cards like Goons, Hunting Grounds, Forge, and Alter may be willing to sacrifice having 3 extra Coppers to buy them early. On the other hand, cards like Grand Market, King's Court, Border Village, and Expand conflict with having lots of Coppers around, making an early Beggar not worthwhile to get to them. If you need to hit $5 on your first reshuffle for some important card (Witch and Mountebank come to mind), Beggar all but guarantees their purchase while giving some defense if your opponent is also grabbing attacks.

As a Reaction
You rarely want to buy Beggar solely for its reaction. But, if you were thinking about it anyway for its Action, you may be swayed further by its reactionary ability. Beggar is often happy to be hit by an Attack card. Gaining 2 Silvers is very good, unless you're going for a Treasureless deck, in which case why would you buy Beggar in the first place? Unlike Moat, and somewhat like Horse Traders, Beggar's reaction acts differently depending on what attack triggers it, making it a better defense against some Attacks than others.

Junkers: Beggar's reaction is probably weakest against Cursers and Looters. You still get the Silvers, but no other advantage. On the other hand, Beggar's action can be good in Curse slogs, so Beggar may still be worthwhile in these games. Beggar pairs well with Ambassador as described above, both for its action and reaction abilities.

Discard Attacks: Beggar is very good against many discard attacks. Against a vanilla discard attack like Militia, Beggar allows you to discard it to gain 2 Silvers, while reducing your hand size so that you have to discard one fewer card. This works great against Militia, Goons, Ghost Ship, and Urchin/Mercenary, and decently against Margrave. Beggar is an excellent counter to Pillage, since it removes itself from your hand, giving you 4 cards which makes you immune to Pillage. Similarly, Beggar allows you to dodge Minions if you wish, or you can choose not to reveal it if you don't like your hand. Beggar is bad against the targetted discards of Cutpurse and Bureaucrat, which don't care about handsize.

Deck Inspection Attacks: Though cards like Spy and Scrying Pool will usually discard the topdecked Silver, they are often played frequently and therefore you can expect them to be played when you have Beggar in hand. Beggar is not as good against Rabble, Fortune Teller, or Oracle, which will discard the topdecked Silver. It is pretty decent against Jester, which prefers to hit your really good cards or your really bad cards; Silver is in the middle ground which gives your opponent the least advantage.

Trashing attacks: Beggar somewhat protects against Thief and Noble Brigand, since you'll likely gain a Silver while giving your opponent a Silver. It is excellent against Saboteur, Rogue, and Knights, since the topdecked Silver protects your better cards. It is also great against Swindler, where you will gain a Silver and another $3 card. The one card you'll almost never want to reveal Beggar to is Pirate Ship - you will guarantee they'll hit Treasure.

Works with:
- Alt-VP, especially Gardens
- Apothecary
- Bank
- Counting House
- Hitting high price points early (Bank, Goons, Hunting Grounds, Forge, Alter)
- Buying late with an extra buy
- Discarding attacks and some trashing attacks

Conflicts with:
- Colonies
- Strong trashing
- Buying early in engines or BM
- Grand Market, King's Court, Border Village, Expand
- Pirate Ship
- Cutpurse
- Venture and Adventurer
- Poor House


EDIT1: Removed Ambassador paragraph.
EDIT2: Added Gardens paragraph referencing DStu's simulations.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 08:11:14 am by Schneau »
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jsh357

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2012, 11:12:20 am »
+1

Great article
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brokoli

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2012, 11:20:22 am »
+1

Thank you for this nice article. However, a few disagreements :

- Coppersmith can really be excellent with begger in "draw your deck engines" or with tactician (because tactician allow you to play 2 actions). But even without, I'm sure you underrate this combo, which is clearly stronger than Beggar + Counting house IMO.

- I haven't tried it, but I'm convinced Beggar/Gardens is not so strong, at least not as strong as Beggar/Duke or IW/Gardens. Because unlike Ironworks or Workshop, beggar can't gain another beggar (same with bureaucrat, and bureaucrat/gardens is never really viable).

- Against cursers and looter, the gained silvers are good since curses clog less your deck. In very slow games (mountebank), it's easier to rush on duchies and end the game on piles.
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shark_bait

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2012, 11:42:10 am »
+1

I'll disagree with the Beggar/Gardens thought.  This should be exceptionally powerful!  Open Beggar/Beggar and then buy priority is Garden>Beggar>Estate>Copper.  I know that this is really general and you can optimize when to start buying estates as opposed to Beggers.  The key is that each play of Beggar nets you 3 cards.  That is HUGE in a Gardens game.  Also you only need a single copper with a Beggar to have $4 to purchase a Garden.  With all the copper flowing through your deck, that won't be hard.
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jsh357

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2012, 11:53:33 am »
+1

I'll disagree with the Beggar/Gardens thought.  This should be exceptionally powerful!  Open Beggar/Beggar and then buy priority is Garden>Beggar>Estate>Copper.  I know that this is really general and you can optimize when to start buying estates as opposed to Beggers.  The key is that each play of Beggar nets you 3 cards.  That is HUGE in a Gardens game.  Also you only need a single copper with a Beggar to have $4 to purchase a Garden.  With all the copper flowing through your deck, that won't be hard.

Yeah, I also disagree with brokoli on this.  I have even had success opening Beggar/Gardens and rushing the Gardens pile since Beggars are so cheap and you're virtually guaranteed to get more.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2012, 11:55:07 am »
0

this should be really easy to sim and compare to workshop/gardens or any BM baseline.
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Re: Beggar
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2012, 12:00:00 pm »
+2

I'll confirm that beggars are a good gardens card. The deck bloats very quickly and you get the chance to buy 5 cost cards as well, either as early preparation or a duchy boost near the finish. I suspect that repeatedly gaining coppers as part of a province buying strategy will be less common.

Donald has created quite a few varied reaction cards and this one is as bizarre as any. It does seem to defend well in a completely new way. There are some more complicated situations though, such as with rabble, swindler, or torturer, that need to be considered for each specific kingdom. On the other hand, it can be really strong when it puts a lot of silver into the deck. The difficulty can sometimes be harnessing that silver to buy provinces. My first instinct was that having a lot of silver in a game played against militia with 3 card hands wouldn't be enough since it would leave you unable to buy provinces, however the sheer bulk of treasure in the deck, in every hand, can be enough to see you home.
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Re: Beggar
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2012, 12:02:23 pm »
+2

Interesting article. Well done. I haven't seen Beggar + Bank as a combo so far. But your thoughts seem reasonable.
But I'm not sure about Beggar + Ambassador. If Ambassador is a strong card, you want a thin deck for building an engine. Your opponent's Ambassador could give you 2 Silvers which is nice for getting to $5 or $6 after getting rid of most of your deck. But I don't think that it is a wise choice to get 3 Coppers only for having $3 this turn.
And Beggar is great with Gardens. You get to ~40 cards very fast.

DG

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2012, 12:13:57 pm »
0

I'll hold off making a judgement on ambassador + beggar. I did make use of this against the Goko bots (with grand markets) but in general you don't want much silver in an ambassador deck. You need to keep a tight deck of quality cards rather than a bigger deck of average cards.
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jomini

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2012, 01:44:33 pm »
+2

Another use for beggar is as a cheap engine component to get dross in hand to partner with non-scaling TfBs. Altar is the easiest one to see here. Take some engine like Festival, Library, Kc, Altar. You get your altar, set up your Kc/Fst/Lib engine and the altar promptly runs out of targets. You can either just let the altar be a dead card or maybe spend 2 coin on a beggar and then be able to Kc/Altar for 3 engine components or 3 late game duchies. Why not just use your +buys on coppers? Because they take up 3 slots in deck and can kill your engine quick (particularly for things like menage or Lib). A single beggar is normally enough to fuel multiple plays of non-scaling TfBs without having to mess up your draw.

In like manner, Beggar can complement masquerade well. Masq can also run out of crud to pass over, but you may still want to play it for draw, trashing (e.g. Market square) or to steal good cards from a thinned opponent deck. A particularly nice option is something like discard/village/beggar masq where you can get the opponent down to 3 cards, pass over a copper, and trash a copper. The most devious use of this repetitive play of Masq & Cutpurse to steal the opponents entire deck: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4676.0. Beggar is not strictly needed, but it is a strong enabling card for what I'm starting to think is the most devastating & robust combo out there.

Another shot I haven't played, but sounds somewhat viable is trader/beggar. When those two cards line up, you can get 4 silvers into your deck.

One shot I'm even less sure about is using Beggar's as +3 cards (2 net) with something like cellar, or storeroom. On the one hand you can get some awfully big hands with Beggar and use the coppers as discard fodder to draw some absolutely killer combo (e.g. Kc/Mountebank), on the other hand that requires a village play first and thrashes your own deck pretty hard. Still I could see something like Beggar/Golem/Cellar working.
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Re: Beggar
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2012, 01:44:51 pm »
+1

Counting House was hipster first.
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Schneau

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2012, 02:12:33 pm »
0

Another use for beggar is as a cheap engine component to get dross in hand to partner with non-scaling TfBs. Altar is the easiest one to see here. Take some engine like Festival, Library, Kc, Altar. You get your altar, set up your Kc/Fst/Lib engine and the altar promptly runs out of targets. You can either just let the altar be a dead card or maybe spend 2 coin on a beggar and then be able to Kc/Altar for 3 engine components or 3 late game duchies. Why not just use your +buys on coppers? Because they take up 3 slots in deck and can kill your engine quick (particularly for things like menage or Lib). A single beggar is normally enough to fuel multiple plays of non-scaling TfBs without having to mess up your draw.

In like manner, Beggar can complement masquerade well. Masq can also run out of crud to pass over, but you may still want to play it for draw, trashing (e.g. Market square) or to steal good cards from a thinned opponent deck. A particularly nice option is something like discard/village/beggar masq where you can get the opponent down to 3 cards, pass over a copper, and trash a copper. The most devious use of this repetitive play of Masq & Cutpurse to steal the opponents entire deck: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4676.0. Beggar is not strictly needed, but it is a strong enabling card for what I'm starting to think is the most devastating & robust combo out there.

Interesting on both points, though I don't think either will be relevant often enough to mention in the article, though maybe I'm wrong.

Another shot I haven't played, but sounds somewhat viable is trader/beggar. When those two cards line up, you can get 4 silvers into your deck.

I actually already mentioned this combo briefly in the article.

One shot I'm even less sure about is using Beggar's as +3 cards (2 net) with something like cellar, or storeroom. On the one hand you can get some awfully big hands with Beggar and use the coppers as discard fodder to draw some absolutely killer combo (e.g. Kc/Mountebank), on the other hand that requires a village play first and thrashes your own deck pretty hard. Still I could see something like Beggar/Golem/Cellar working.

It's funny that you bring this up, because I originally had a paragraph about using Beggar to increase handsize before using something like Cellar / Storeroom / Madman. But, I removed it because it also seems like an edge case that won't come up often. It might be most viable using Madman for a mega turn, since you can play a Madman and then a Beggar and then another Madman, requiring only two cards instead of three. But, again, this is probably not common enough for mention.
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jomini

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2012, 05:29:59 pm »
0

People tend to underestimate the value of tight engines and and just how flexible they can become. Certainly in colony games, you can run out of targets for strong trashing cards and that can really put in a crimp in things where the free supply of copper is useful (e.g. Kc/Moneylender in a colony game).

One option, I've been running over in my head is using beggar as a megaturn payout. Kc/Kc/Beggar/Beggar/Coppersmith results in a whopping 24 coin; only a few cards can generate more cash there (Count, Harvest, Death Cart, and Poor House) - virtually all of them have some difficulties and excepting poor house they cost a lot more. As long as you are ending the game, the copper gaining doesn't matter. I think beggar/madman needs some help - definitely +buy, but perhaps something like Tr as well.

On a related note, top deck setups - like Kc/Scheme, University/Inn, Kc/Develop, etc. could work well with beggar. If you aren't reshuffling, gaining 9 coppers a turn is fine with assured provinces. It is the cheapest +3 coin in the game, so it helps overcome one of the big problems with this sort of setup - it can take too long to buy and line up the cards.

Beggar/Madman should work as a combo as long as you can get the needed +buy; some other source of +action would also be nice. That is pretty common (getting 1 +buy in 8 other kingdom cards is about average, hermit makes it easy to amass late game beggars and not lost out when you want mass Madmen).
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Re: Beggar
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2012, 08:17:18 pm »
+1

My first and only Beggar game ever was a 4-player game with Pillage, Rogue, and Feodum. I opened Beggar/Beggar and won. Good times.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 08:18:28 pm by ycz6 »
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Re: Beggar
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2012, 12:34:30 am »
+1

Thank you for this nice article. However, a few disagreements :

- Coppersmith can really be excellent with begger in "draw your deck engines" or with tactician (because tactician allow you to play 2 actions). But even without, I'm sure you underrate this combo, which is clearly stronger than Beggar + Counting house IMO.

I'm a little skeptical of this. Even if you have a strong draw engine, there's no surer way to destroy it than to play a bunch of beggars. Moreover, if you have excess draw and a spare action, you should simply play another coppersmith!
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Re: Beggar
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2012, 12:38:06 am »
0

Thank you for this nice article. However, a few disagreements :

- Coppersmith can really be excellent with begger in "draw your deck engines" or with tactician (because tactician allow you to play 2 actions). But even without, I'm sure you underrate this combo, which is clearly stronger than Beggar + Counting house IMO.

I'm a little skeptical of this. Even if you have a strong draw engine, there's no surer way to destroy it than to play a bunch of beggars. Moreover, if you have excess draw and a spare action, you should simply play another coppersmith!

Well, if the number of Coppersmiths played is more than one third the number of Coppers, then a Begger is better than a Coppersmith, but yeah, this kind of use is probably going to be ultra-rare.
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Re: Beggar
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2012, 09:17:03 am »
+1

Thank you for this nice article. However, a few disagreements :

- Coppersmith can really be excellent with begger in "draw your deck engines" or with tactician (because tactician allow you to play 2 actions). But even without, I'm sure you underrate this combo, which is clearly stronger than Beggar + Counting house IMO.

I'm a little skeptical of this. Even if you have a strong draw engine, there's no surer way to destroy it than to play a bunch of beggars. Moreover, if you have excess draw and a spare action, you should simply play another coppersmith!

Well, if the number of Coppersmiths played is more than one third the number of Coppers, then a Begger is better than a Coppersmith, but yeah, this kind of use is probably going to be ultra-rare.

I'm going to have to agree and stick by my original opinion that Beggar and Coppersmith don't go well together. Coppersmith may enjoy a few extra Coppers, but not as many as the 3 given by Beggar on every play. It's just too many unless you're also trashing them for some reason to reliably draw the Coppersmith with lots of Coppers.
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Schneau

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2012, 09:19:37 am »
0

But I'm not sure about Beggar + Ambassador. If Ambassador is a strong card, you want a thin deck for building an engine. Your opponent's Ambassador could give you 2 Silvers which is nice for getting to $5 or $6 after getting rid of most of your deck. But I don't think that it is a wise choice to get 3 Coppers only for having $3 this turn.

I think this is a good point about Beggar and Ambassador. I haven't actually tested this combo, but just hypothesized that it might work well depending on the rest of the kingdom. But, it might be more narrow than I originally imagined, and will require some testing.
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Schneau

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2012, 10:57:28 am »
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As far as I know, Beggar isn't implemented in either simulator, so simulating Beggar/Gardens is out of my reach until it is implemented.

Quote from: Schneau
Ambassador is a good pairing with many cards, and Beggar is no exception. If your opponent is going Ambassador, Beggar's reaction will allow you to load up on Silvers while getting rid of your Coppers. Beggar's action can help you transition out of Ambassador by hitting $5 or $6 to snag the good cards. Plus, Ambassador can be used to get rid of the extra Coppers you get from playing Beggar.

As for Beggar/Ambassador, the simulators aren't that great at Ambassador engines unless you really put a lot of time into them, so playtesting will have to suffice. All I have so far is one anecdotal game I just played against myself, where one player opened Amb/Beggar and the other Amb/Ironmonger on a Festival/Rabble/Ironmonger engine board. The Beggar player never actually got to use Beggar as an action - it always either discarded it to an Attack or had Beggar conflict with better terminal actions. It did get at least 6, maybe 8 Silvers out of reveals. But, the Amb/Ironmonger player dominated. It had a much thinner deck, since it wasn't gaining lots of Silvers, and was able to run away with the game. I'm not saying I played either strategy optimally, but it was obvious that neither player got majorly lucky or unlucky, and that Ironmonger was a much stronger opening than Beggar. So, I think I'll remove that paragraph.

I could, however, see Beggar being a good later game buy if you have a well-trimmed Ambassador deck running that usually draws your deck. It could be used in a similar way to buying Curses to send to your opponent can be in Ambassador engines, while ensuring you can hit $8 when you need to. But, like the Masquerade point mentioned by jomini, I don't think this is of high enough importance to mention in the article.
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DStu

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2012, 12:16:44 pm »
0

this should be really easy to sim and compare to workshop/gardens or any BM baseline.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4647.msg105422#msg105422

Edit: I think the advantage of Beggar/Gardens over WS/Gardens is that you can really afford to start Gardens/Beggar, and are almost guaranteed to at least repeat this in T3/4.  So you have a really fast start, and I guess it is impossible to end with less than 3 Gardens, and very hard to get less than 4 from there. And even if you lose the split 5/3 you have the advantage of deck-size and the possibility to get Duchies.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 12:26:36 pm by DStu »
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Schneau

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2012, 01:26:57 pm »
0

this should be really easy to sim and compare to workshop/gardens or any BM baseline.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4647.msg105422#msg105422

Edit: I think the advantage of Beggar/Gardens over WS/Gardens is that you can really afford to start Gardens/Beggar, and are almost guaranteed to at least repeat this in T3/4.  So you have a really fast start, and I guess it is impossible to end with less than 3 Gardens, and very hard to get less than 4 from there. And even if you lose the split 5/3 you have the advantage of deck-size and the possibility to get Duchies.

Interesting! I had imagined opening double Beggar would be the correct call, but that's just because I've never opened with a Victory-only card before. I think this needs some more analysis, and maybe even its own Beggar/Gardens combo article about optimum play. But, I can definitely imagine opening Beggar/Gardens being optimal. Every turn with a Beggar play nets you 4 cards, most often including a Victory card. When I get time I'll add this information to the article, and include statistics and reference to your WS/Gardens and DoubleJack comparisons (noting that they're not optimized and citing your post, obviously.)
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Squidd

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2012, 01:35:08 pm »
+4

Kc/Kc/Beggar/Beggar/Coppersmith results in a whopping 24 coin
Much more, actually. Each KC-Beggar puts 9 Copper into your hand, then KC-Coppersmith makes each Copper worth $4. 18 * 4 = 72
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Qvist

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2012, 02:42:54 pm »
+3

Kc/Kc/Beggar/Beggar/Coppersmith results in a whopping 24 coin
Much more, actually. Each KC-Beggar puts 9 Copper into your hand, then KC-Coppersmith makes each Copper worth $4. 18 * 4 = 72

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1204.msg123501#msg123501

dnkywin

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2012, 05:36:37 pm »
+3

Circular linking!  :P
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aaron0013

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Re: Beggar
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2012, 11:15:50 pm »
+3

Pretty good article, but you forgot the unbeatable combo:  KC/KC/KC/KC/Scheme/Scheme/Scheme/Scheme/Beggar/Beggar/Trader with Feodum on the board!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 11:21:33 pm by aaron0013 »
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