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[guided]

You're the one derailing the thread

If you would characterize my first 2 posts as derailment, then I need to be sure never to post in one of your threads again, and I'm certainly not sorry for thinking you were being rude to me.

Almost every strategy question in Dominion comes down to "it depends", and general principles are much more useful in thinking about how to improve your game than things like "if these exact 4 cards are all available then here's the exact buy/play rules that will work" (and I did give you an exact set of 4 cards, but whatever).

[DG]

NB:  You can assume other cards, but not a whole other engine.

The value from village/smithy is that you enable another engine with it. You don't want to be using villages and smithies to draw poor treasures from your deck or cycle cheap cards around. If you were going to throw stewards, hoards and nobles into the kingdom then that might create some different looking engine with village/smithy/nobles, the steward doing a mix of trashing and drawing, and the hoards proving gold, catching up the time spent buying the drawing chain instead of treasures.

The basic draw chain isn't difficult to work out. You need to control you deck size so that your action cards aren't disconnected. You need to cycle something of use rather than pushing around poor cards. Gaining/upgrading cards for your deck can offset the time spent buying cards for the draw chain. Once you have big draws from your chain you can use other kingdom cards more effectively, more often, and with better results. You will of course need good results since you need to catch up the turns spent building the drawing engine instead of buying treasures.

[play2draw]

Maybe you want to play multiple Mountebanks on your turn and Warehouse/Village or Cellar/Village isn't an option?... but then again, Mountebank is probably one of the best counters for Village/Smithy to begin with...

[Epoch]

The value from village/smithy is that you enable another engine with it.

We may be having a terminology difference here.  What I mean by "not another engine" is that there is no card drawer as good as or better than Smithy, and no source of +2 Action other than Village (except maybe Hamlet?  I'd also potentially accept +2 Actions that don't give card advantage, though I think that's a slightly different question), and none of the "I'm an engine all by myself" cards like Laboratory or Alchemist.

If we want a full list of cards I'm excluding, I think this is pretty exhaustive:

Card Drawers:  No Council Room, Torturer, Rabble, Nobles, Envoy, or Wharf.  Maybe no Courtyard?  Not sure.
+2 Actions:  No Shanty Towns, Native Villages, Walled Villages, Fishing Villages, Mining Villages, Worker's Villages, Hamlets (maybe), Cities, Bazaars, Nobles (again!) or Festivals.
"All By Itself" Engine cards:  No Minions, Laboratories, Alchemists, Hunting Parties, or maybe Scrying Pools.

A variation might be yes to Hamlets and Festivals.

Or, to put the whole thing a different way:  I'm interested in decks which utilize Village/Smithy to draw a very large hand and have lots of Actions, and then plays whatever actions and treasure and such off of having done that.  What I'm trying to exclude is "other ways to draw a very large hand" or "other ways to get lots of Actions," because, of course, we know that there are variations of "other ways to draw a very large hand" which are just in and of themselves strong.

[tko]

One factor is what is your opponent doing?  On their turns 1-4, did they buy Smithy, Silver, Silver, Gold?  If your opponent isn't going BM and building a cute engine, it gives you more wiggle room to build your own engine.  How many Markets to buy?  Well did your opponent buy 2 or 3 Markets?  Then in that case you can buy 2.

Let us assume that your opponent is a robot who plays Big Money Ultimate + the best single enabling Action card on the table + any kingdom-treasure cards that are helpful, period, no ifs, ands or buts, and you know this before the game starts.

I might very well lose to a Big Money Ultimate robot some of the time... maybe I lose 70% of the time to a Big Money Ultimate robot, but in that situation, in that one game I played, maybe I got the 30% lucky and it made me think that Village/Smithy can be effective.  Though I know Village/Smithy has lost for me before, it's attractive in it's fun factor (oooh I'm playing more cards).  Now lets instead assume my opponent plans to be a Big Money Ultimate robot, but then my purchases and occasional big turns have a psychological effect that can take my opponent off their game, and they make a non-treasure buy to counter what they are afraid of might happen, and that could get me the upper hand.

Though I think Remodeling style cards are key... if you can Remodel Copper->Cellar or Estate->Smithy, you are replacing dead cards with cards that help keep the engine going. Sure, you can draw Smithy and no Village... using Cellar or Wharehouse can help you dig for that Village you need to kick off a big turn.

Personally, I'd be kind of surprised if Remodel, alone, was enough to make such an engine work.

I think Remodel-style cards (Remodel or Upgrade) are enablers to help the engine work, but solely, you're right - Village/Smithy/Remodel isn't good enough.  You need to be getting into the +buys (or pseudo buys like Horn of Plenty), or attack cards, or something of incremental value (Monuments).

And attacks!  If you can build an engine that can play attack cards more reliably (not just Goons) than that draw power and those big turns have a pay off.  If you can play Militia followed by Masquerade, for example, iiitt iizzz NICE, eh?

Though both Militia and Masquerade hurt you, and both are excellent single-action cards for your BMU-robot opponent to use against you (Masquerade more so, I assume).

Maybe 30% shined on me those days I recall on BSW when my opponent opened Militia, but I worked around it and eked out a victory, or my opponent bought a ton of Gold but I was able to Remodel into dutchies and sneak out a win.  But I do find that getting to draw and play attack cards more frequently can buy you enough time to continue engine building.

[Geronimoo]

@Epoch: I wouldn't try Remodel or Steward because they involve non-trivial decisions that are highly dependent on your strategy and the context of the game (neither of which the simulator is able to grasp)

[Epoch]

@Epoch: I wouldn't try Remodel or Steward because they involve non-trivial decisions that are highly dependent on your strategy and the context of the game (neither of which the simulator is able to grasp)

Yeah, that's what I thought.  Shame, I'd love to try it.  (Don't take that as a knock:  I'm a software engineer, I've got an idea of how hard the simulator was to build, and I think it's completely awesome).

[Geronimoo]

Horn of Plenty is the perfect match for Village/Smithy (no need for +Buy anymore).

This bot easily beats any Big Money variant (not involving attacks):

Code: [Select]

<player name="Village/Smithy/Horn of Plenty">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Horn_of_Plenty"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Royal_Seal">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Royal_Seal"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Moneylender">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Moneylender"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Ghost_Ship">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Ghost_Ship"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Silver"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Wishing_Well">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Wishing_Well"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Horn_of_Plenty">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Horn_of_Plenty"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <extra_operation type="plus" attribute="2.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="King$s_Court">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="King$s_Court"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="7.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Village">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Terminal"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Village"/>
         <extra_operation type="plus" attribute="1.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Smithy"/>
   <buy name="Wishing_Well"/>
</player>

It's actually the built-in NGN - Plenty Horny where I replaced Walled Village with the regular Village. It does require quite a few other cards to get Horn of Plenty to Province-gaining-level.

[Epoch]

Okay, Village/Smithy/Goons (even without any trashing!) is surprisingly good: it stomps both BM + Smithy and BM + Goons.

Code: [Select]

<player name="Village/Smithy/Goons">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Goons"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Goons">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Goons"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Smithy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Village"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Village"/>
</player>


[WanderingWinder]

Best I can get is about 40-55 losing with only smithy and bank. Probably your market-including bot can be improved too.

[WanderingWinder]

Okay, Village/Smithy/Goons (even without any trashing!) is surprisingly good: it stomps both BM + Smithy and BM + Goons.

Code: [Select]

<player name="Village/Smithy/Goons">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Goons"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Goons">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Goons"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Smithy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Village"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Village"/>
</player>


I'm not sure if it's your implementation, but this gets DESTROYED by a simple Village/Goons bot I just whipped up.

[Epoch]

I'm not sure if it's your implementation, but this gets DESTROYED by a simple Village/Goons bot I just whipped up.

Interesting!  So probably the Smithies are a net drag.  I didn't try to optimize that bot a whole lot because it was awfully good to start with, but maybe the story here is just "get lots of Goons."  I only tested against BM + 1 Goon.  Maybe BM + 4 Goons would have destroyed it, too.

[rod-]

I was going to come post and ask how it does against village/goons.

I still think there is some room for improvement in the bot, though - i wouldn't want to have an equal number of villages/smithies, and 4 goons, i would want more like villages+1=smithy+goons

[Anon79]

What would make me go Village+Smithy? I would almost certainly consider it if Peddler was available, but the ending deck may contain not very many Smithies.

Village/Smithy/Baron/Peddler/Sea Hag, with no trashing, sounds like a good candidate to try Village/Smithy as the engine?

[play2draw]

Maybe Village/Smithy could also be used as a conspirator enabler? Throw in a couple markets for +buy to seal the deal?

[papaHav]

guided: "+buy" is great advice and a common mistake.

Epoch: in the presence of weak trashing, you may not get the critical deck speed to catch up to bigmoneyult. +draw can sometimes push a weakly trashed deck across that threshold to max speed (draw whole deck each turn)

e.g 1# remake/silver open, pick up villages on trashing turns, with an endgame powerhouse like bank, mint or hoard/harem (or all of them!). remake bank-> province as coup de grace

e.g. 2# Forge is greatly buffed by increased handsize. If forge is the only trasher, and very promising endgame such as GM/conspirator for an action chain, i would open Big money smithy to get a forge, village/smithy midgame into whatever endgame

e.g. 3# most KC decks make me wanna chain actions over silver/gold. Certain attacks or decent +$ will need +draw to chain if there is no very good trasher to reach that game-ending critical mass of attacks.
weak trash/kc with saboteur/festival/pirate ship are great candidates for village smithy earlygame

thats about it.

[kn1tt3r]

Possession.

You just build an engine to draw your whole deck consistently, and in the end use your 7 coppers and a potion to buy possessions. So you just focus on buying Victory cards with your opponent's deck while improving your draw engine further with your own turns (plus 1-2 more possessions maybe).

[WanderingWinder]

I'm not sure if it's your implementation, but this gets DESTROYED by a simple Village/Goons bot I just whipped up.

Interesting!  So probably the Smithies are a net drag.  I didn't try to optimize that bot a whole lot because it was awfully good to start with, but maybe the story here is just "get lots of Goons."  I only tested against BM + 1 Goon.  Maybe BM + 4 Goons would have destroyed it, too.

Nope. I tested my optimized Goons bot and yours won, iirc it was like 60-40. But I meant to note that when I say destroyed here, I mean 99.8-0.2. Yeah.

[DG]

I logged this test game http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110714-103700-f84c2143.html a while back when we were talking about opening with a village. It uses cards from the "first game" example kingdom in the Dominion rulebook (remodel, village, militia, mine, market, cellar, smithy) and creates a smithy/village drawing engine. It weakens under attacks cards in the basic set but that's not particularly relevant to your question.

Anyway, to answer the question in the original post you only need to look as far as the first game of Dominion that most people play. All you have to do is spot it!

[DG]

It's seems rather a shame but the simulator seems to play badly any cards needed to empower the smithy/village engine. You'd think that cellars would be a good idea but I looked at a sample game and was typically disappointed. With 9 coins to spend and one buy the bot used a cellar to discard 16 cards, then another cellar to do the same, only to find it now had 7 coins to spend as it had discarded copper and redrawn green cards. Next hand was a bunch of copper and green cards that had all been discarded by the cellar of course.

The simulator very effectively models purchasing rules and game mechanics. Unfortunately it does those things so well that the failings in card play are quickly exposed.

[Superdad]

How does the addition of a coppersmith affect things? I would think that coppersmith would be a good compliment to smithy/village.

Typically smithy/village fails because it spends all it's tempo buying smith/village and all that combo does is draw a bunch of copper. So what if you get a coppersmith or three and turn those coppers you have drawn into serious buying power?

[Epoch]

How does the addition of a coppersmith affect things? I would think that coppersmith would be a good compliment to smithy/village.

Typically smithy/village fails because it spends all it's tempo buying smith/village and all that combo does is draw a bunch of copper. So what if you get a coppersmith or three and turn those coppers you have drawn into serious buying power?

I suspect that Village/Smithy/Market/Coppersmith is a lot like Village/Smithy/Market/Bank, but a little bit worse.  Banks, after all, essentially do the same thing, but don't take Actions to use.

[Superdad]

Indeed. My comment was not so much to go coppersmith instead of bank on a board with both, but rather that coppersmith may be another card that could push me to a village/smithy deck.

[Epoch]

Indeed. My comment was not so much to go coppersmith instead of bank on a board with both, but rather that coppersmith may be another card that could push me to a village/smithy deck.

Yeah, sorry, I understood, I was just saying that my guess would be that it would perform similarly-but-a-little-worse, so probably not worth it in a Province game, worth it in a Colony game (assuming the dominant alternative strategy is "Big Money").