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[Epoch]

Here's the set up:

1.  It's a Province game.  Village and Smithy are in the kingdom.  You know that Village/Smithy loses to Big Money + 1 Smithy.

a.  What other cards on the board would convince you to go for a Village/Smithy engine over Big Money + 1 Smithy?

b.  What's your general buy strategy to get all of those cards?  When do you start buying Villages?  What proportions do you try to obtain?

And:

2.  Same questions, but a Colony game.



NB:  You can assume other cards, but not a whole other engine.  No, "Torturer, and I'll use Torturer instead of Smithy."  We know Village/Torturer is good.

[HLennartz]

NB:  You can assume other cards, but not a whole other engine.  No, "Torturer, and I'll use Torturer instead of Smithy."  We know Village/Torturer is good.

I guess this doesn't count, but one game I won opening Village/Smithy, and used that to build into a primarily-Torturer engine with 2 Smithy's in the mix. So it wasn't a case of purely using Torturer over Smithy...Smithy was a vital bootstrap to get the engine going quickly.

[tko]

If Remodel is out there, I like to Remodel Estate->Village or Smithy.  Note the way I play might not be optimal enough to beat BM every game, though I'm comfortable in that fact that if I pick a strategy that has a 45% chance to win, it will still feel like I can win 1/2 the games.

If Monument is out there, I like to try to Throne Room or Village into multiple Monuments (though I prefer Throne Room in this case) - maybe Iron Works to gain the necessary components?

Let's replace Smithy with Nobles in the Kingdom, and it feels like Nobles quality improves with Villages... though my gut feeling would likely be proven to be far from optimal by a simulator.

[guided]

+Buys and some way to get huge buying power out of a huge hand. Ironworks helps too.

[Epoch]

+Buys and some way to get huge buying power out of a huge hand. Ironworks helps too.

Okay, but specifically what?  I mean, if Woodcutter/Village/Smithy is on the board, is that enough to convince you that Village/Smithy is dominant over Big Money + Smithy?  How about Market instead of Woodcutter, arguably a better +buy in this case?

[jonts26]

Banks and any source of +buy, especially non-terminal. Substituting worker's village for vanilla village helps a lot.

[guided]

Okay, but specifically what?

Because building a Village/Smithy engine is usually slow, and you need some way to catch up once it's built. If you don't have multiple buys, you won't have enough turns to catch up. If you don't have huge buying power, you won't have enough money to catch up.

No, just Market isn't enough. Certainly not Woodcutter. Market and Bank? Now we can talk.

[Epoch]

Because building a Village/Smithy engine is usually slow, and you need some way to catch up once it's built. If you don't have multiple buys, you won't have enough turns to catch up. If you don't have huge buying power, you won't have enough money to catch up.

I am very clear on the theory, the question is what is enough?  Perhaps oddly, I can't recall ever having played a game of Dominion where Village/Smithy was on the table.  It seems like the weakest real "engine" deck -- the one that gets you nothing but cards and actions, and not a glut of either, and requires two different cards so it's more susceptible to stalling than, say, Laboratories.

Yes, I know, guys, with an engine you want buys and the ability to put together a mega-turn.  Thanks, I've played a few hundred games of Dominion or so, I have a general concept of how engines work.  But specifics.  How does this, particular, weak engine work?

Not with Worker's Village.  Not with Torturer.  Not with Council Room.  An actual Village/Smithy engine.

Okay, so, one combo that guided at least would regard as enough would be village/smithy/market/bank.  Fair enough.  What's the game plan there?  Open Village/Smithy?  Buy no money besides Banks?  What ratio of villages/smithies do you go for?  How many Markets?  How many Banks?



Asking for Bank/Market seems like a high bar.  Anyone think it's doable with less?  How about Coppersmith/Market?

Would you try it with Village/Smithy/Steward/Pawn?  Steward for the trashing early and the money or cards to shore up your engine later.  Pawn as +buy when you want it, a cantrip when you want that, a card/money when you've got extra actions to throw around?  I doubt this would function, but I'm curious.  What about Village/Smithy/Steward/Hamlet?  What if you threw Conspirators into the mix?

Would anyone even remotely try it with terminal +buy?  Salvager, maybe?

What if the board was Village/Smithy/Goons?

[philosophyguy]

I'd be willing to try with Village/Smithy/Goons. I would open Smithy/Silver and go BM until I could buy a Goons, then my priorities would be between Goons, Villages, and Smithies based on a) avoiding terminal collisions, b) being ahead of my opponent in the Goons race, and c) being able to draw my whole deck (in roughly that order, although c might be more important initially).

In order to do this, I would need to see a set that does not have a quick endgame. A gardens game or Salvager would get ahead too quickly for this engine to take off.

[play2draw]

Well... opening Village/Smithy would be much worse than Smithy/Silver and probably worse than Smithy/Nothing.

Trashing would help (particularly Remake, I imagine)... but then again trashing would make most any engine better, and there are plenty of stronger engines than Village/Smithy.

Apothecary would be very useful in digging through a deck with lots of junk, and help chain your cards in the proper order... but then again filtering your cards would make most any engine better, and there are plenty of stronger engines than Village/Smithy.

Wharf would be a good compliment to a deck that requires chaining Villages and Smithies, and provides a +buy... but then again Wharf would make most any engine better, and there are plenty of stronger engines than Village/Smithy.

If Goons were on the board with good trashing, I'd might try and chain something together... but if the only +2 actions card is Village and the best card-drawer is Smithy, you'd need a significant number of the villages and enough +buys to get the "massive turn" to occur without making the Goons a mere novelty.

[guided]

Yes, I know, guys, with an engine you want buys and the ability to put together a mega-turn.  Thanks, I've played a few hundred games of Dominion or so, I have a general concept of how engines work.  But specifics.

OK, good luck with that.

[Epoch]

I don't see how to make village/smithy/market/bank work in a Province game.  Those are all cards with no non-trivial decisions to make, so I believe the simulator should be good with them.  The best I've managed is 42% for the engine versus a big money deck with one smithy and which buys banks at $7 exactly.

Anyone want to take a stab at it?  Here are my files:

Code: [Select]

<player name="Village/Smithy/Market/Bank">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Village"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Market">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Market"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Bank">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Bank"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Market">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Market"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Smithy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Village"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Village"/>
</player>


Code: [Select]

<player name="BM + Smithy (+bank)">
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Smithy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Bank"/>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>


EDIT to add:  Village/Smithy/Market/Bank STOMPS Big Money in a Colony game, however.

[Epoch]

Well... opening Village/Smithy would be much worse than Smithy/Silver and probably worse than Smithy/Nothing.

Though that may be tied up in the fact that BM+Smithy is just better than a Village/Smithy engine.

Trashing would help (particularly Remake, I imagine)... but then again trashing would make most any engine better, and there are plenty of stronger engines than Village/Smithy.

Sure, but...  obviously Village/Smithy is a weak engine.  I know that.  It's fine to posit cards that would help any engine, it's just not fine to change which engine we're talking about.  Like, we'll assume that no better engines are available on the board, otherwise, well, we wouldn't be looking at how to make Village/Smithy work.

So, trashing.  I admit that I'm not sure exactly how handle trashing in a deck like this.  Like, how many Coppers do you trash?  Do you buy Silvers to maintain buying power, or do something like reduce the deck's total buying power to $4 and get a "draw entire deck every turn" and then increase buying power only after you're at that goal?

Apothecary would be very useful in digging through a deck with lots of junk, and help chain your cards in the proper order... but then again filtering your cards would make most any engine better, and there are plenty of stronger engines than Village/Smithy.

Apothecary dropped into the deck would make it better, sure, but when would you actually buy Apothecary to enable Village/Smithy?  I mean, I presume you wouldn't try to create a Village/Smithy/Apothecary/nothing else but treasure and victory cards deck.  So, can you see a kingdom where you'd go Village/Smithy+Apothecary?  If so, what are the other cards in the kingdom?

Wharf would be a good compliment to a deck that requires chaining Villages and Smithies, and provides a +buy... but then again Wharf would make most any engine better, and there are plenty of stronger engines than Village/Smithy.

I suspect that with Wharf on the board, it would be a Village/Wharf engine, not a Village/Smithy engine.

If Goons were on the board with good trashing, I'd might try and chain something together... but if the only +2 actions card is Village and the best card-drawer is Smithy, you'd need a significant number of the villages and enough +buys to get the "massive turn" to occur without making the Goons a mere novelty.

Would you go for Village/Smithy/Goons/Chapel?

[jonts26]

The main problem is that village/smithy is going to start tanking hard once you start greening so the only way to make it work is with 1 mega turn which requires a huge amount of buys and money, but it still has to be fast. The smithy/BM player should expect 4 provinces by turn 14 or 15 with a 5th and 6th in the next few turns, or at least some duchies, and can probably secure half the VP's by turn 18 or so.

Would you go for Village/Smithy/Goons/Chapel?

I suspect Goons might be the best way to make village/smithy more viable that smithy/big money, since there is essentially an unlimited number of points to be had and the smithy/BM is going to take some time to run the game out on piles. The trasher might not even be necessary but then you will run into the same problem of the engine stalling hard once you start adding useless coppers. I think watchtower might be very helpful here.

The problem here is that this engine really has nothing to do with village/smithy. They are simply enablers for the real players: Goons and watchtower (or chapel) and this combo works with any sort of draw engine of which there are thousands (millions? billions?) of which village/smithy is one of the worst.

[WanderingWinder]

Yes, I know, guys, with an engine you want buys and the ability to put together a mega-turn.  Thanks, I've played a few hundred games of Dominion or so, I have a general concept of how engines work.  But specifics.

OK, good luck with that.

How very helpful of you.

I think there's virtually nothing that's going to make me want to build a deck around village/smithy as an engine. I say virtually nothing because I can't think of anything right now. Goons is a maybe, but I'm probably not really going to be building such an engine there, at least not in the classic sense where you're drawing a good chunk of your deck every turn, not with literally smithy and village. Fishing village absolutely. Worker's Village maybe. Same with farming. And if you can get something for draw other than smithy, then also.
And there are lots of decks where I will BUY both, but not really making an engine.

[Epoch]

I think there's virtually nothing that's going to make me want to build a deck around village/smithy as an engine. I say virtually nothing because I can't think of anything right now.

Village/Smithy/Market/Bank in a Colony game, with the right buy strategy (which is sort of a pain to create in the simulator but I think is pretty intuitive in real life: build your engine first, as your engine gets going, get 1 Market, buy two Banks, get a couple more Markets for the additional buys and the help to your engine) does really well against Smith + Bank + Big Money in the Colony games.  Like, 70/30 well.

Of course, it may be that on that board, there's another strategy which would trump both, but with just those cards, I don't see it.

[tko]

One factor is what is your opponent doing?  On their turns 1-4, did they buy Smithy, Silver, Silver, Gold?  If your opponent isn't going BM and building a cute engine, it gives you more wiggle room to build your own engine.  How many Markets to buy?  Well did your opponent buy 2 or 3 Markets?  Then in that case you can buy 2.

Though I think Remodeling style cards are key... if you can Remodel Copper->Cellar or Estate->Smithy, you are replacing dead cards with cards that help keep the engine going. Sure, you can draw Smithy and no Village... using Cellar or Wharehouse can help you dig for that Village you need to kick off a big turn.

And attacks!  If you can build an engine that can play attack cards more reliably (not just Goons) than that draw power and those big turns have a pay off.  If you can play Militia followed by Masquerade, for example, iiitt iizzz NICE, eh?

[WanderingWinder]

1. What's that 70/30 based on? Gut instinct or simulator data?
2. Colony games will definitely help the village/smithy engine.
3. If it's based on sim data, can you post the bots? I'd bet I can tune your Smithy/Bank/BM deck a bit better than you have it.

[Epoch]

One factor is what is your opponent doing?  On their turns 1-4, did they buy Smithy, Silver, Silver, Gold?  If your opponent isn't going BM and building a cute engine, it gives you more wiggle room to build your own engine.  How many Markets to buy?  Well did your opponent buy 2 or 3 Markets?  Then in that case you can buy 2.

Let us assume that your opponent is a robot who plays Big Money Ultimate + the best single enabling Action card on the table + any kingdom-treasure cards that are helpful, period, no ifs, ands or buts, and you know this before the game starts.

Though I think Remodeling style cards are key... if you can Remodel Copper->Cellar or Estate->Smithy, you are replacing dead cards with cards that help keep the engine going. Sure, you can draw Smithy and no Village... using Cellar or Wharehouse can help you dig for that Village you need to kick off a big turn.

Personally, I'd be kind of surprised if Remodel, alone, was enough to make such an engine work.

And attacks!  If you can build an engine that can play attack cards more reliably (not just Goons) than that draw power and those big turns have a pay off.  If you can play Militia followed by Masquerade, for example, iiitt iizzz NICE, eh?

Though both Militia and Masquerade hurt you, and both are excellent single-action cards for your BMU-robot opponent to use against you (Masquerade more so, I assume).

[Epoch]

1. What's that 70/30 based on? Gut instinct or simulator data?

Simulator, albeit not a ton of tweaking the BMU robot.

2. Colony games will definitely help the village/smithy engine.
3. If it's based on sim data, can you post the bots? I'd bet I can tune your Smithy/Bank/BM deck a bit better than you have it.

Sure:

Code: [Select]

<player name="COL - Village/Smithy/Market/Bank">
   <buy name="Colony">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Village"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Market">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Market"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Bank">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Bank"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Market">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Market"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Smithy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Village"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Village"/>
</player>


Code: [Select]

<player name="COL - BM + Smithy (+bank)">
   <buy name="Colony"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Smithy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Platinum"/>
   <buy name="Bank"/>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>


[chesskidnate]

Perhaps ironworks and tournament could make village-smithy valid. Open ironworks-silver, pick up a second ironworks and pounce on the villages and smithies, grab some tournaments when you think your deck is getting close to buying a province then switch back to village-smithy when you have about 3 tournaments. Of course, this also suffers from the fact that tournament is really your engine and village smithy is just an option for drawing a lot of cards but there probably are better options.

[guided]

How very helpful of you.

I made helpful posts about general situations where I might consider this engine and got insulted for it.

It's not your place to be the guy who follows me around looking down your nose at me every time I respond to someone who is being rude to me. It is on you for choosing to derail threads like this time and time again. There's a "Report to moderator" button you can use rather than taking it upon yourself to be everybody else's white knight whether they deserve it or not.

[Epoch]

It's not your place to be the guy who follows me around looking down your nose at me every time I respond to someone who is being rude to me. It is on you for choosing to derail threads like this time and time again.

You're the one derailing the thread.  I don't know how it is that you read the first post and thought that it was asking for you to respond with one sentence that says, "+buys are nice," but it was an egregious misreading.  When I clarified that I was looking for specifics again, and you again posted generalities, and then chose to get all upset when I repeated for a third time that the thread was about specifics, not one-sentence generalities that everyone here already knows, that was all on you, dude.

[Geronimoo]

I managed to get the Village/Smithy engine deck (with Banks and Markets) to slightly beat (49-47) the BM - Smithy/Bank:

Code: [Select]

<player name="Village/Smithy/Market/Bank - Big Turn">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="24.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countBuysLeft"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Duchy"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Bank">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Bank"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Market"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Market">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Market"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Smithy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Smithy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Village"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Village"/>
</player>

It's going for the mega mega turn (3 Provinces in 1 turn). I tried the mega turn (2 provinces) and mega mega mega turn (4 Provinces), but 3 is apparently the sweet spot.

[Epoch]

I managed to get the Village/Smithy engine deck (with Banks and Markets) to slightly beat (49-47) the BM - Smithy/Bank:

Interesting.  I didn't even think of just straight-up using the money count thing to control the first Province mega-buy.

Since you're here -- is there a point in playing around with Steward or the various Remodel-type cards in the simulator, or does it not know how to play them?