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[timchen]

Ok, So Death Cart is actually not a particular good +5 card since it cost you 2 cards in your hand to produce $5. Does rats give it enough support, that early on you can use rats to get rid off coppers and estates, and later on trash it with Death Cart and draw a card back, suppose there are some villages on the board to avoid drawing dead?

[Drab Emordnilap]

Ok, So Fool's Gold is actually not a particular good +5 card since it cost you 2 cards in your hand to produce $5. 

Seriously, though; I'd think it's pretty good if you have a reason to want to get rid of your starting copper anyways, because there's a strong engine/attack, but if it's a big money board, probably not.

[timchen]

What are you saying? Are you talking about death cart, rats, or both?

Also for Fool's gold, the third one makes quite a difference. But sure, 2 card for $5 is pretty good; but there is a severe constraint for the death cart, that the second card must also be an action, and you won't see that action again. Rats augments it on both fronts; but my feeling is that this 2 card combo is not even enough to beat pure big money.

[Drab Emordnilap]

What are you saying? Are you talking about death cart, rats, or both?

My first sentence was in reference to this line:

"Ok, So Death Cart is actually not a particular good +5 card since it cost you 2 cards in your hand to produce $5."

That same statement can be applied to Fool's Gold, except, as we know, Fool's Gold is pretty good.

The rest was talking about the combination of Rats and Death Cart: I think this combo is good if you would want to get rid of your starting coppers anyways (because Rats are good at this), but without a reason to want to get rid of them, like in a Big Moneyish game, I think it would be too slow.

[brokoli]

I'm convinced that Death cart is one of the best $4. Even if you trash it, +$5 is terribly strong. At the end of the game, it's an absolute beast.

Death cart / rats seems great, but I haven't tried it.

[werothegreat]

You must hate Baron, then.

[jonts26]

I think death cart probably needs some support, but maybe not that much. Without increased hand sizes, it might not be the best since it'll be hard to line up with actions you don't mind trashing so much (like those ruins). I do think a one shot $5 is fantastic, but the cost is 2 ruins. And if you fail to line up DC with those, then you are likely worse for it. I'm not sure what the odds of hitting DC with a ruin if you open say DC/silver, but probably not too great. Certainly much worse than a baron/salvager open.

Anyway, I do think rats/DC will be a ridiculously good combo. It does everything you say it will.

[timchen]

@werethegreat: well, turning that useless estate into $2 is quite different from having to trash a potentially useful action. Indeed I think for big money augment uses early baron is much much more useful than a deathcart.

@jont26: I originally thought so, but after a game I felt it's actually not particularly strong. In that game, I had a bunch of hands, where either trashed down to 1-2 cards in hand (rats play net -1 card in hand) and the death cart alone is not enough for a province or even a gold, or was full of rats (2-3 along with the DC) and I couldn't play them in the fear of trashing my useful cards. Basically, the problem is that when they really starts to pair up it seems there are too many rats in the deck.

[jonts26]

Maybe you just have to be more judicious in your rats use. You can use them to trash estates/ruins, but only trash say coppers sparingly. After all, every play of rats gives you another rats and every play of death cart only trashes one rats. So you need to play DC and rats in equal measure to avoid being overrun.

[Kuildeous]

I'm convinced that Death cart is one of the best $4. Even if you trash it, +$5 is terribly strong. At the end of the game, it's an absolute beast.

Another way to look at this is that it's like buying a Feast. Only this time, the classic noobie mistake holds true, and you do in fact get a $5 credit on a buy.

Would I buy Feast more often if it gave me a $5 credit on a purchase? Sure thing. And on top of that, you have the potential of reusing the card. 

[werothegreat]

I just played an IRL game with Rats and Death Cart as the only trashers.  I slurped up 7 of 8 Colonies, but I think that's mainly my opponent was distracted by turning his entire deck into Rats.  There was support from Worker's Village and Band of Misfits, so I was able to spend three turns in a row picking up 2 Colonies each.  Death Cart/Rats is incredibly strong, and with +Buy, makes Death Cart pretty much strictly better than Feast.

[werothegreat]

Maybe you just have to be more judicious in your rats use. You can use them to trash estates/ruins, but only trash say coppers sparingly. After all, every play of rats gives you another rats and every play of death cart only trashes one rats. So you need to play DC and rats in equal measure to avoid being overrun.

Trash all Coppers.  Naturally, Estates/Shelters take priority.

[timchen]

I just played an IRL game with Rats and Death Cart as the only trashers.  I slurped up 7 of 8 Colonies, but I think that's mainly my opponent was distracted by turning his entire deck into Rats.  There was support from Worker's Village and Band of Misfits, so I was able to spend three turns in a row picking up 2 Colonies each.  Death Cart/Rats is incredibly strong, and with +Buy, makes Death Cart pretty much strictly better than Feast.

Do you mind quoting how many turns did it take you to that point?

[werothegreat]

I just played an IRL game with Rats and Death Cart as the only trashers.  I slurped up 7 of 8 Colonies, but I think that's mainly my opponent was distracted by turning his entire deck into Rats.  There was support from Worker's Village and Band of Misfits, so I was able to spend three turns in a row picking up 2 Colonies each.  Death Cart/Rats is incredibly strong, and with +Buy, makes Death Cart pretty much strictly better than Feast.

Do you mind quoting how many turns did it take you to that point?

I wasn't keeping track, but with Vandals and Vermin now on Goko, you can try it out yourself. 

[timchen]

Did I not say that I have tried, and I didn't find it that fast?

[werothegreat]

This combo does need support.  By its nature, you'll be headed toward a moneyless deck, unless you pump Gold in there somehow (Market Square would do the trick).  You'll at least need Villages to play more than one Death Cart per turn in the endgame, and probably +Buy to make use of the massive amounts of money you then generate.  Worker's Village is thus the natural support to this combo.

For the IRL game, I used BoMs as Menageries for draw, but usually just once every other turn.  I am remembering now that there was Grand Market and Peddler on the board.  With those, the DC/Rats combo effectively doubles your coin output once you're running at max and ready to green, making it far easier to scoop up Colonies.  And if you find your deck clogged too much with Rats, just use the DCs to pick up Duchies, since the Rats pile should be empty or near-empty anyway.