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GendoIkari

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Request: Black Market
« on: October 18, 2012, 08:40:51 pm »
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I just checked the card articles list, and saw that there's no Black Market article. I think it's most certainly a card worth analyzing.

Ok, so there's some obvious combos and tricks; with Tactician or draw up to X or Quarry, etc. But the card itself seems to have a pretty big impact on many Kingdoms. While I wouldn't be surprised to find that I overrate it, at the very least its presence in a Kingdom means that there's one more thing you need to check for: "Is it a Colony or Province game?" "Are there Villages?" "What is in the Black Market?" etc.

What I'm mainly interested in is how much weaker is buying Black Market compared to buying the strongest card that's in Black Market. If the only Curser on a board with no trashing in in the Black Market, does it become an almost must-buy? Anyway, I'd love to see some in-depth analysis from the experts.
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Titandrake

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2012, 11:00:12 pm »
+5

Interestingly enough, I was planning to write a Black Market article, but never got around to actually doing it. Haven't played Dominion in the past few days, so here goes.

---

Often, Dominion cards can be classified into a certain category. You have trashers like Chapel and Remake, +Cards like Smithy, +Buy from Woodcutter and Herbalist, and +Actions from Village cards. Although this is not an exhaustive list, it shows that many Dominion cards can be grouped together into certain general effects.

Black Market throws all of that out the window. It is the only card in the game that allows you to buy cards from outside the game. And because of this, it is one of the most high-variance cards in the game. You can lose a game because one player managed to pick out a power card from the Black Market and you didn't, and there isn't really much you can do about it.

Downsides
Black Market is terminal. Because of this, it must always be judged in comparison to buying a Silver instead of Black Market.

Black Market is slow. Let's suppose you buy a Black Market on T1/T2. Then you play it on T3/T4. That means that if you buy something from the Black Market, the earliest you can see that card is on turn 5, and that's assuming you find the card you want.

It's unpredictable. There is absolutely no guaranteeing that you find the card you want, with the money to pay for it. The most important thing to remember about Black Market is that you should never assume you'll get a specific card. Rather, you should have several cards that you want to buy, and be flexible in building a plan that can accomodate them. Compare to new Dark Ages card Ironmonger.

When to buy Black Market

1. A slow game. This is probably the most important point to keep in mind. Black Market is only useful if you actually get the time to play the action card you bought. Against a fast Big Money strategy, like Embassy-BM or Courtyard-BM, I would hesitate at picking up Black Market. The fast pace means you play fewer Black Markets, have a smaller chance of obtaining a good card, and an even smaller chance of having that card have a meaningful impact.

2. Villages. Unless you're buying Black Market for variety (see a later point for this), Villages are almost essential to Black Market. Because of how the Black Market deck is created, you are going to primarily be buying actions, often terminals. You need Villages to ensure you can actually play them. And the Villages should be in the Kingdom rather than in the Black Market deck. Don't hope to get lucky and buy +Actions; buy them from the Kingdom.

3. Engine decks. If you can play Black Market every turn, you're bound to find what you want fairly quickly. The problem is that buying Black Market early will probably hurt the speed of your engine deployment. So in these games, you want to do it after you've picked up a few pieces.

4. Strong cards in the BM deck, preferably those strong even when bought late. Remember that when buying from a Black Market, you're getting the card turn 5 at the earliest. So although buying trashers from the Black market is tempting, I would hesitate about it. There's a reason you open Chapel, Steward, and Remake on T1/T2, and not on turn 5. Even Ambassador is not an amazing buy from the Black Market.

Also, there need to be strong cards. Not one strong card and several weak ones. There should be a couple (at least 3) cards that you really want from the Black Market, as well as some that you would be fine with adding to your deck (generally cantrips).

Cards to watch out for are:
  • Cursers. Although curse-givers are much stronger early on in the game than later, Curses are still amazingly painful. Still, if there's only one Curser and nothing else, I wouldn't bother unless the board was very slow. The chances of getting it are too slim otherwise.
  • Missing engine components. This should be considered more as a bonus than as an active reason to buy it.

    Good engines typically have +Actions, +Cards, and +Buys. If one of those categories is missing from the board, you can try to get it from the Black Market. As mentioned before, trying to get missing +Actions from Black Market is usually not worth it. Trying to get that missing +Buy is alright, but don't neglect Provinces/Colonies. Finally, picking up terminal draw can be quite good, but should be considered more as a side goal. (I lost my train of thought here, so this point is a lot more jumbled up.)
  • Tournament. Yep, Tournament gets its own section. It's that good. I might be overdoing it, but if I see Tournament in the Black Market, I'd buy Black Market about 80% of the time. If you get the only Tournament in the game, you get exclusive access to all the Prizes. And the prizes are really good. Essentially, Tournament can be considered as a potential Curser, +Buy, +Actions...you get the idea. The best part is that because Tournament is most useful after the first Province, it is relevant over almost the entire game.

5. Fairgrounds. Black Market - Fairgrounds is very strong, and is worth considering even if there are not many Villages in the game. I'm honestly not sure how it compares to the top-tier BM decks, like Masquerade-BM, but you can get very high point-scoring Fairgrounds with Black Market out.

(Would like someone with more experience to talk about this point. My gut reaction is that you should try to always buy a card from the Black Market, but it's also important to ramp up to reach $6. I think overall, you should open Black Market/X, try to always buy from Black Market, and buy either Villages for the actions or money for the...money. When you have a solid economy, you can go nuts with 1 copy of everything.)

6. Vineyard. Vineyard likes slow games as well (ignoring Vineyard rushes with Ironworks and the like.) So Black Market can be useful in picking up lots of actions, and as a source of +Buy. Ideally, the Black Market will have lots of cantrips, or some decently strong attacks to slow down the pace of the game.

7. Tactician. So Black Market is an amazing way to fuel a Double Tactician deck. Play Black Market, play Tactician, use massive buying power from the Treasure in play. In this situation, you want at least 2 Black Markets, just to be safe. Missing a Tactician in Double-Tact hurts, but missing your source of +$ hurts a lot more.

Works with:
  • Villages + Weak Terminals
  • Fairgrounds
  • Tactician
  • Weak board/a somewhat weak engine
  • Colonies

Conflicts with:
  • Strong engine possibilities
  • Strong Big Money cards
  • Attacks (they slow down the game, but you need to pick up the Attack and at that point Black Market is less attractive.)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 11:26:43 pm by Titandrake »
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popsofctown

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2012, 11:31:26 pm »
+2

Are we talking about Black Market, or Isotropic Black Market?
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verikt

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2012, 12:38:41 am »
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other things worth mentioning. good in a minion +action deck   also good with hop and conflicts horribly with hunting party
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AJD

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2012, 12:59:21 am »
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How's Black Market / Gardens (treating Black Market as a Woodcutter variant, that is)?
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2012, 01:33:05 am »
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For me the main situation is good cycling, and no super powerful cards in the kingdom that I'm always going to want more than whatever is in the Black Market. The cycling is super important or Black Market is just too slow. You need to play it often to reliably find good stuff, and you need to cycle that stuff in fast to get in enough plays to make it really matter.
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Titandrake

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2012, 02:09:27 am »
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How's Black Market / Gardens (treating Black Market as a Woodcutter variant, that is)?
The problem is that Black Market's pseudo +Buy only pertains to the Black Market deck. So even if the Black Market deck is all Pearl Divers, you probably won't buy them because you don't have the $4 for Gardens if you do.

Black Market/Vineyard is a bit better, because you only need to spend the $P on the Vineyard, leaving you free to buy lots of silly stuff.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 02:16:42 am by Titandrake »
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Asklepios

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2012, 05:00:57 am »
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Good one Titandrake!

I'd also add to the "works well with" list:

Menagerie, Library, Watchtower, Jack of All Trades, if there is a +2 or more actions card as well (Native Village being a great choice).

Reason being that you can use the Black Market to shrink your hand while storing that money for later use, then those cards to draw back up. Even better if you can find a way to trash the non-treasure non-action stuff (like your starting estates).

Not so much a combo as a basis for an engine, but Black Market + decent drawing that needs small hands + buys + actions = a solid engine.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2012, 05:05:27 am »
+2

Good article, but I would avoid the BM abbreviation here.
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DG

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2012, 06:10:27 am »
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Black Market is quite a unique card with a lot going on. It makes for a long article.

Getting treasures played mid turn uniquely allows advantages from kingdom treasures, such as quarry, to be available before the buy phase. On buy/gain effects can occur mid turn from cards such as inn or mint. Having emptied your hand of treasure with the black market you can get better use from menageries, tacticians, minions, libraries, etc.

Although the black market does not provide a regular +1 buy there are situations where you want an option to buy anything reasonable from the black market and then something cheap from the supply. Peddlers are a common example.

Swindlers and saboteurs can wipe out the unique gains from the black market.

Quarry, highway, and potentially bridge are good partner cards for black market. You are mostly buying action cards from the black market so the quarry is a good partner.

One way to misplay black market is to buy too many terminal actions. It is very tempting to take terminals offered from the black market stack, since the opportunity might not come again, but this is the classic way to break your deck. This also needs to factor into your decision whether to buy the black market or not.

A second way to misplay black market is to have a weak deck, expecting the black market to rescue it. If the deck is weak then you might not have enough coins in hand to buy the best cards when they are offered. Get the foundations of the deck right and then bring in the black market if you need it.

Throne Rooms and King's Courts are particularly good with black market. They allow you to rapidly churn through the market offering and loot the best cards. The overall deck will become a good match too with many different action cards and some terminal actions +for 2 coins.

Quote
And the Villages should be in the Kingdom rather than in the Black Market deck. Don't hope to get lucky and buy +Actions; buy them from the Kingdom.

Not strictly true. I've seen a black market loaded with +action cards and once they were bought they enabled good terminals from the kingdom to be harnessed.

Quote
Black Market is slow. Let's suppose you buy a Black Market on T1/T2. Then you play it on T3/T4. That means that if you buy something from the Black Market, the earliest you can see that card is on turn 5, and that's assuming you find the card you want.

There is an issue with speed but it is more specific than this. If you buy a quarry on turn 1 and play it on turn 3, you don't get your purchase until turn 5. That doesn't stop you buying quarries.  The lateness issue is most import for cards like a chapel that you would normally buy early and are worse when used on a mid-game deck. A warehouse might be good whenever you buy it. The issues isn't only lateness though since it is also harder to plan the correct sequence for your kingdom purchases when you don't know which cards will be available from the black market and when they will appear.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2012, 07:00:49 am »
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Black Market also works with Library-like draws, provided you have enough +actions available.
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verikt

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2012, 11:21:53 am »
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Quote
On buy/gain effects can occur mid turn from cards such as inn or mint.
yeah. I once played hop as part of the black market, gaining a kings court and drawing it the same turn
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ConMan

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2012, 06:29:17 pm »
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Works well with:
  • Isotropic - since you know what's in the BM, you can build a deck that will make use of any likely purchases

Doesn't work well with:
  • Real life games - especially if you play anything vaguely resembling the suggested set-up rule, you've got the double joy of having to deal with the ridiculous amounts of variance it introduces and having to sort through half your Dominion collection to find the cards and put them back
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popsofctown

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2012, 07:34:08 pm »
+1

Works well with:
  • Isotropic - since you know what's in the BM, you can build a deck that will make use of any likely purchases

Doesn't work well with:
  • Real life games - especially if you play anything vaguely resembling the suggested set-up rule, you've got the double joy of having to deal with the ridiculous amounts of variance it introduces and having to sort through half your Dominion collection to find the cards and put them back
Black market IRL is much less variant than Isotropic black market.  When you buy a curser from the Iso black market, it removes a large proportion of the cursers from the black market, and your opponent has much less chance to get a curser.  IRL, you've removed a smaller proportion of the cursers from the black market, so you can still get a different curser.
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ConMan

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2012, 10:53:32 pm »
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Black market IRL is much less variant than Isotropic black market.  When you buy a curser from the Iso black market, it removes a large proportion of the cursers from the black market, and your opponent has much less chance to get a curser.  IRL, you've removed a smaller proportion of the cursers from the black market, so you can still get a different curser.
If you're mixing all sets together and looking at categories of cards rather than individual ones, then I'll grant you that. But, if you're talking individual cards, then you know that with enough plays of Black Market on isotropic you'll see every card in the market fairly quickly, and can potentially buy them all. With RL and at least one complete set making up the market, if you pass up a card now you won't see it again this game.

And I would argue that, depending on how you define variability, there's still more in terms of categories of cards in a RL game - one the Iso market is determined, you've got very constrained probabilities of hitting certain combinations (e.g. if there's one curser, one village, one cantrip, etc then you know that each BM play can only show you either 0 or 1 of each category) whereas a RL market could offer you three cursers at once, or curser-village-trasher, or many other combinations, and I agree that those probabilities don't shift much when you remove one of a category - i.e. once you remove "the" trasher from the Iso market you've guaranteed the number of trashers that will show up on future plays (zero), whereas removing one from a RL market makes it marginally less likely that you'll hit 1, 2 or 3 of them but doesn't prevent it from happening completely.
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DrFlux

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2012, 12:46:03 pm »
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I think the difference in variance between RL and Iso for black market don't really matter that much: If you get a curser turn 3 and your opponent doesn't, it doesn't really matter that much whether your opponent gets a curser turn 6 or not. Mostly they are screwed either way. Same thing with a lot of cards: getting them early is very important. I think Black Market has massive variance regardless of the platform.
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popsofctown

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2012, 01:43:33 pm »
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I think the difference in variance between RL and Iso for black market don't really matter that much: If you get a curser turn 3 and your opponent doesn't, it doesn't really matter that much whether your opponent gets a curser turn 6 or not. Mostly they are screwed either way. Same thing with a lot of cards: getting them early is very important. I think Black Market has massive variance regardless of the platform.
It doesn't matter that much, but it matters a little.  If the player who misses the curser is compensated by a less impressive, but still nice pull, like an exclusive Village or exclusive trasher or exclusive handsize attack, then getting a curser on turn 6 can be the thing that keeps that player in the game.  Or a catch-up curser on Turn 6 and a Goons/Remake/Fishing Village of exclusivity on turn 9 can turn things around.

Most of the time, though, yeah, it doesn't matter, because one guy gets witch, the other guy gets Market, things are pretty bleak.

What matters to me is the thought exercise, getting people to realize how sampling without replacement works.
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jotheonah

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2012, 12:47:22 am »
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Two things: 1) I am lost on this iso vs IRL discussion ... was this covered in another thread?
2) Re: the article. You might want to mention Potion cards. Namely, never plan on getting a Potion-cost card from the BM deck (unless you're drawing your deck) because the chances of lining up your Potion, your BM, and sufficient money are pretty slim.
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dondon151

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2012, 12:53:09 am »
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Does Iso only put P-cost cards in the BM deck if there are already P=cost cards in the kingdom?
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jotheonah

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Re: Request: Black Market
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2012, 12:56:49 am »
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Yes.
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