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[Omer]

I've seen reviews for a lot of deck building games (Thunderstone, Ascension, Arctic Foragers, Eminent Domain, Rune Age and more) and while I'll admit Dominion is the blandest theme-wise, none of the others seem to feel very thematic. Sure, the theme on some of them seem quite stronger than Dominion, but again, seeing gameplay of them doesn't make them feel thematic to me. Only exception is Mage Knight, but of course deck building is but a fraction of the game. I wonder why it's so difficult to make pure deck building games feel thematic? The first publisher to release such a game would surely have my money.

[popsofctown]

Puzzle Strike is terrible at theme, and you didn't mention that one!  I don't know why it's so hard

[Grujah]

What about Quarriors?

[Davio]

What about Quarriors?

That's just a horrible game, theme or not.

Theme in deckbuilding fails because in the end, you're still playing cards. And the cards you play have an effect on the other cards and at this point all hope for theme is lost. This means that the actual intricacies of the cards are much more important than their flavor and while you may start out with some logical choices (+2 Actions, +1 Card = Village-y) you'll end up with weird ones: Wandering Minstrel.

[Omer]

What? there are card games that are thematic (non deck building but you're still playing cards in them too) like Lord of the Rings LCG and hell, even Magic the Gathering.

[ipofanes]

A Few Acres Of Snow, about the British-French conflict in North America, is the best example of a thematic game. Granted, it needs a board and money chips and meeples, but then Dominion "needs" Island mats and Embargo counters :-).

The great thing about A Few Acres Of Snow is that the deckbuilding thing *is* thematic in the sense that cards gained don't affect gameplay until redrawn, which mimics the long time decisions taken in London or Paris took to affect the colonies.

[Davio]

What? there are card games that are thematic (non deck building but you're still playing cards in them too) like Lord of the Rings LCG and hell, even Magic the Gathering.

I guess it depends on your own immersion.

When I play LOTR LCG it feels more thematic than Dominion for sure, but in the end I'm still playing cards.
When I draw Gandalf I'm happy that I've drawn a very good card, but I don't feel like Gandalf himself has come to my aid!

[ipofanes]

Granted, a LARP environment lends itself better to imagining the real thing. But if you are trying to say the very mechanic of card games is more abstract than, say, dice-rolling fests, I would have to disagree. There are card games with sport themes which catch the sport element quite well. Here's an example from The Netherlands: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/37284/de-ronde-van-frankrijk

[Davio]

Okay, maybe not card games in of itself.

But what I means is that with Dominion specifically the cards constantly reference other cards and abstract things you can do with the cards: +1X, +2Y, get a card of this type, etc....

This already makes Dominion quite abstract and I don't know if there's an easy way to fix this.
You could add flavor text, but, well, yeah, that's just that.

I wonder how many MTG players feel like actual wizards.

[ipofanes]

I think that the concept that a M:tG creature card has "hit points" and can "take damage" introduces a lot of battle atmosphere. And if I am left with no meaningful card in my hand and two lifes left, I feel like a wizard who has exhausted all the useful spells he has read on.

On the other hand, the concept of money is very thematic in Dominion and I think most players think of "money" and "value" when they play a game of Dominion. So while a game like M:tG has a simple, but thematic mechanic for battles (attacking, assigning blockers, amassing hit points), Dominion has a straightforward money mechanism. I grant that I don't feel like employing a Smithy when I draw three cards, but I feel a bit like spending money when I do. If only my real money would come back after the next reshuffle.

[Captain_Frisk]

The closest I can think of actually tying deckbuilding theme are:

A management game - where the cards in your deck represent people that you can boss around.  You only have a limited amount of time per day (representing your actions).  Extra layers of managers would allow further bossing (+actions), while productive workers would produce resources.

A sports game - where the deck represents plays / actions available.  The deck represents the training that you've done for your team (what plays they know etc.)   As they get tired - exhaustion is added to the deck, but subbing in new players might be a way to combat it.  You might have limited control of rebuilding your deck during timeouts / halftimes.

[DStu]

A Few Acres Of Snow,

/summon theory

[Captain_Frisk]

A Few Acres Of Snow,

/summon theory

I need to get this to the table, even if it is allegedly broken.  Don't read the strategy folks!

[jotheonah]

This seems like a really good opportunity to link a blog post that may or may not have been written by a regular poster in these forums.

http://theanalyticalcouchpotato.org/wp/return-to-ravnica-and-the-marriage-of-mechanics-and-flavor/

[Donald X.]

This seems like a really good opportunity to link a blog post that may or may not have been written by a regular poster in these forums.

http://theanalyticalcouchpotato.org/wp/return-to-ravnica-and-the-marriage-of-mechanics-and-flavor/

For a few of my games flavor comes first. I started with flavor and then worked out the rest of it. For most of my games flavor comes second - mechanics, flavor, data. The mechanic is the good idea that the rest of the game is hung on; I pick flavor to fit the mechanics, then pick data to fit the flavor. For Dominion, flavor comes third - data, mechanics, flavor.

[Davio]

This seems like a really good opportunity to link a blog post that may or may not have been written by a regular poster in these forums.

http://theanalyticalcouchpotato.org/wp/return-to-ravnica-and-the-marriage-of-mechanics-and-flavor/

For a few of my games flavor comes first. I started with flavor and then worked out the rest of it. For most of my games flavor comes second - mechanics, flavor, data. The mechanic is the good idea that the rest of the game is hung on; I pick flavor to fit the mechanics, then pick data to fit the flavor. For Dominion, flavor comes third - data, mechanics, flavor.

Lucky for us, because it turned out to be such a great game.

I would rather have a good game with less flavor than a game with lots of flavor and "shoehorned" cards and mechanics.

[ftl]

There's room in the world for all kinds of games! No need to choose which you prefer. I love some flavor-heavy games and some mechanics-heavy games.

[Archetype]

There's room in the world for all kinds of games! No need to choose which you prefer. I love some flavor-heavy games and some mechanics-heavy games.

I agree. With a hardcore gaming group, mechanics heavy games are preferred, but with casual gaming group flavor heavy games are the best.

[Lekkit]

I play games for fun. And I expect almost everyone else does that too. For me fun in gaming is first the social part and second the game. So when I play games that the other players like. Although if the game is too bad, I'll probably sit it out. I tend to like games with good mechanics, and fortunately for me so does my friends. I don't really care if a game has theme or not. I would like Domimion even if Village was called 1 and only had +1 card +2 actions on it. There are games I like for flavor reasons though.

[Davio]

There's room in the world for all kinds of games! No need to choose which you prefer. I love some flavor-heavy games and some mechanics-heavy games.

What? There are other games than Dominion? 

Nah, also in regards to the other topic about game collections, mine is a bit light on the storytelling RPG-types like the ones they feature on the Watch It Played series on YouTube. I would love to have a game like that in my collection, but no budget at the moment.

[Omer]

That new Marvel Legendary game looks pretty thematic...

[Grujah]

There's room in the world for all kinds of games! No need to choose which you prefer. I love some flavor-heavy games and some mechanics-heavy games.

I agree. With a hardcore gaming group, mechanics heavy games are preferred, but with casual gaming group flavor heavy games are the best.

This, though one doesn't exclude the other.

[ipofanes]

There's room in the world for all kinds of games! No need to choose which you prefer. I love some flavor-heavy games and some mechanics-heavy games.

I agree. With a hardcore gaming group, mechanics heavy games are preferred, but with casual gaming group flavor heavy games are the best.

This, though one doesn't exclude the other.

Disagreement here. Popular games like Scrabble, Chess, Poker, Mah-Jongg and Dominoes aren't flavour heavy. I, for one, am not imagining a flock of sparrows when I'm shuffling Mah-Jongg tiles. And even your typical Spiel des Jahres winner (for me this is a litmus test for "suitable for casual gamers") isn't necessarily thematic. Does the main player in Dixit really impersonate an oriental storyteller? What's the theme of Quirkle? And this one card game, where you try to collect green cards which do nothing for you during the game, I don't remember the name at the moment, do people really experience the acquisitions of territories when they pick up a green card?

[Davio]

There's room in the world for all kinds of games! No need to choose which you prefer. I love some flavor-heavy games and some mechanics-heavy games.

I agree. With a hardcore gaming group, mechanics heavy games are preferred, but with casual gaming group flavor heavy games are the best.

This, though one doesn't exclude the other.

Disagreement here. Popular games like Scrabble, Chess, Poker, Mah-Jongg and Dominoes aren't flavour heavy. I, for one, am not imagining a flock of sparrows when I'm shuffling Mah-Jongg tiles. And even your typical Spiel des Jahres winner (for me this is a litmus test for "suitable for casual gamers") isn't necessarily thematic. Does the main player in Dixit really impersonate an oriental storyteller? What's the theme of Quirkle? And this one card game, where you try to collect green cards which do nothing for you during the game, I don't remember the name at the moment, do people really experience the acquisitions of territories when they pick up a green card?

It's even weirder with VP Tokens, what is that?

[ipofanes]

There's room in the world for all kinds of games! No need to choose which you prefer. I love some flavor-heavy games and some mechanics-heavy games.

I agree. With a hardcore gaming group, mechanics heavy games are preferred, but with casual gaming group flavor heavy games are the best.

This, though one doesn't exclude the other.

Disagreement here. Popular games like Scrabble, Chess, Poker, Mah-Jongg and Dominoes aren't flavour heavy. I, for one, am not imagining a flock of sparrows when I'm shuffling Mah-Jongg tiles. And even your typical Spiel des Jahres winner (for me this is a litmus test for "suitable for casual gamers") isn't necessarily thematic. Does the main player in Dixit really impersonate an oriental storyteller? What's the theme of Quirkle? And this one card game, where you try to collect green cards which do nothing for you during the game, I don't remember the name at the moment, do people really experience the acquisitions of territories when they pick up a green card?

It's even weirder with VP Tokens, what is that?

Anyone who acknowledges the concept of financial derivative products in the housing market should be able to wrap his head around that.

[Davio]

I dare not try to wrap my head around derivatives.

In fact, I find it easier to understand quantum physics than these weird financial constructs, they're like magic!

I mean, the system is inherently broken because the total amount of debt is bigger than the total amount of available money, right? And printing money decreases the value of current money (inflation) so even if debts are paid off with new money, the shortage of buying power will cause more debt.

Now I'm no economic expert, far from it, but still a curious party, I'll go ahead and make a topic for it.

[DStu]

In fact, I find it easier to understand quantum physics than these weird financial constructs, they're like magic!

I think what solve all this is to understand that money itself is already magic.

[theory]

moved post to here

[Grujah]

There's room in the world for all kinds of games! No need to choose which you prefer. I love some flavor-heavy games and some mechanics-heavy games.

I agree. With a hardcore gaming group, mechanics heavy games are preferred, but with casual gaming group flavor heavy games are the best.

This, though one doesn't exclude the other.

Disagreement here. Popular games like Scrabble, Chess, Poker, Mah-Jongg and Dominoes aren't flavour heavy. I, for one, am not imagining a flock of sparrows when I'm shuffling Mah-Jongg tiles. And even your typical Spiel des Jahres winner (for me this is a litmus test for "suitable for casual gamers") isn't necessarily thematic. Does the main player in Dixit really impersonate an oriental storyteller? What's the theme of Quirkle? And this one card game, where you try to collect green cards which do nothing for you during the game, I don't remember the name at the moment, do people really experience the acquisitions of territories when they pick up a green card?

What I mean was that you can have machanics heavy games that are also very and quite flavorful as well. Not that necesarily all mechanics heavy games are flavorful.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Does the main player in Dixit really impersonate an oriental storyteller?

Um, yes? How are you guys playing Dixit? "My card has something blue on it"?

A dog, perhaps?

[ftl]

Usually the person giving the clue gives a clue; the word or phrase used doesn't feel like a story at all.

I actually had no idea that the main player was supposed to be an "Oriental Storyteller" until reading this thread, and I've played the game a few times with people.

[jotheonah]

I really want to play DixIt!

[Insomniac]

I really want to play DixIt!

Without knowing the rules it seems to be playable by forum but it isn't as successful as other games.

[Davio]

I really want to play DixIt!

Without knowing the rules it seems to be playable by forum but it isn't as successful as other games.

I wouldn't play it by forum.

My family loves it and we played with 7 people one time on holiday, good times.
It has a nice way to trigger shared memories from way back when.

[Kuildeous]

I really want to play DixIt!

Without knowing the rules it seems to be playable by forum but it isn't as successful as other games.

I wouldn't play it by forum.

My family loves it and we played with 7 people one time on holiday, good times.
It has a nice way to trigger shared memories from way back when.

I could see Dixit being pretty fun in an electronic format. I suppose it *could* be done in a forum if the moderator inserts the images or URLs of each picture and then manages the PMs using those pictures. That seems like a lot of work for the moderator though.

I think it could make for a fun online game, though. You go into a lobby, and when the game starts, you are presented with your cards. The storyteller is given a text box to enter the information and then selects his card. All others are then submitted with votes being done very simply.

It could be fun online. Not sure if it'd be worth a forum game. Makes it a little harder to play surreptitiously at work.

[Davio]

I really want to play DixIt!

Without knowing the rules it seems to be playable by forum but it isn't as successful as other games.

I wouldn't play it by forum.

My family loves it and we played with 7 people one time on holiday, good times.
It has a nice way to trigger shared memories from way back when.

I could see Dixit being pretty fun in an electronic format. I suppose it *could* be done in a forum if the moderator inserts the images or URLs of each picture and then manages the PMs using those pictures. That seems like a lot of work for the moderator though.

I think it could make for a fun online game, though. You go into a lobby, and when the game starts, you are presented with your cards. The storyteller is given a text box to enter the information and then selects his card. All others are then submitted with votes being done very simply.

It could be fun online. Not sure if it'd be worth a forum game. Makes it a little harder to play surreptitiously at work.

Well, there are dozens of online Pictionary clones and this is the same, just reversed.
So you don't even need to program a drawing API, just use some images. They don't even have to be images from the original game as long as they're surrealistic and trigger the imagination.

The thing is, you don't really get your "Why didn't you choose my card!?" or "How come you all guessed my card?" frustration across that well online. It would be too stale.

Pictionary is still fun, because people like drawing.

[ConMan]

I could see Dixit being pretty fun in an electronic format. I suppose it *could* be done in a forum if the moderator inserts the images or URLs of each picture and then manages the PMs using those pictures. That seems like a lot of work for the moderator though.

I think it could make for a fun online game, though. You go into a lobby, and when the game starts, you are presented with your cards. The storyteller is given a text box to enter the information and then selects his card. All others are then submitted with votes being done very simply.

It could be fun online. Not sure if it'd be worth a forum game. Makes it a little harder to play surreptitiously at work.

It's got quite a nice iOS implementation. It works pretty much as you describe, except that you record the clues through the microphone so you can allow for things that aren't easily typed.

[ipofanes]

There's room in the world for all kinds of games! No need to choose which you prefer. I love some flavor-heavy games and some mechanics-heavy games.

I agree. With a hardcore gaming group, mechanics heavy games are preferred, but with casual gaming group flavor heavy games are the best.

This, though one doesn't exclude the other.

Disagreement here. Popular games like Scrabble, Chess, Poker, Mah-Jongg and Dominoes aren't flavour heavy. I, for one, am not imagining a flock of sparrows when I'm shuffling Mah-Jongg tiles. And even your typical Spiel des Jahres winner (for me this is a litmus test for "suitable for casual gamers") isn't necessarily thematic. Does the main player in Dixit really impersonate an oriental storyteller? What's the theme of Quirkle? And this one card game, where you try to collect green cards which do nothing for you during the game, I don't remember the name at the moment, do people really experience the acquisitions of territories when they pick up a green card?

What I mean was that you can have machanics heavy games that are also very and quite flavorful as well. Not that necesarily all mechanics heavy games are flavorful.

Yes, I was more responding to Archetype and your "This," rather than the second part of your statement.

[jotheonah]

I really want to play DixIt!

Without knowing the rules it seems to be playable by forum but it isn't as successful as other games.

I wouldn't play it by forum.

My family loves it and we played with 7 people one time on holiday, good times.
It has a nice way to trigger shared memories from way back when.

My mother's birthday is the day before Thanksgiving. She usually doesn't get into eurogames, but DiXit seems right up her alley - her gaming style is very left-brained and creative and she loves charades and Balderdash and Pictionary. I think I'm going to surprise her by buying it right before the whole family gets together and springing a family game night on her birthday. Pretty psyched.

[Drab Emordnilap]

I really want to play DixIt!

If you live in Houston, you can come play it this weekend!

[Omer]

Umm open your own thread people? This last page had nothing to do with theme in deck building games. Off-topic is as bad as spam imo.

[theory]

Good thing you don't run this forum, then.  It is natural for discussion to branch and touch on subjects different than originally intended.

[Omer]

Good thing you don't run this forum, then.  It is natural for discussion to branch and touch on subjects different than originally intended.

It is, except in every other forum I've been to a moderator splits these discussions into seperate threads.

Wait wait wait, is there no rule against off-topic posts in this forum? Because if there is, then "branching discussion" or whatever way you want to put it is the same thing as off-topic. And if there isn't such rule, then congratulations, this is one of the only forums in the world with no such rule.

PS. I will be looking into posting off-topics posts in other threads, and if a moderator warns me I'll be replying with "It is natural for discussion to branch and touch on subjects different than originally intended." Brilliant, thank you.

[theory]

Have fun at those other forums, then.  You haven't been contributing positively and your attitude is unacceptable.

[Ozle]

Im sorry Theory, you cannot post that you have banned him in this thread because that is not he original topic of the thread.

[Davio]

Well, if I knew we were allowed to branch out, I wouldn't have opened 122 topics!

[Donald X.]

Im sorry Theory, you cannot post that you have banned him in this thread because that is not he original topic of the thread.

Quoting off-topic post for ban.

On topic, making a more thematic deckbuilding game seems totally possible.

[Ozle]

Dominion 2?

I have a space war themed deck building that i am trying to get my friend to prgram as an app/ web program but he never has time!

[Davio]

Dominion 2?

I have a space war themed deck building that i am trying to get my friend to prgram as an app/ web program but he never has time!

Please no, my budget is too limited for Dominion 2.
I mean, I don't even have all the current expansions yet; missing Alchemy, Cornucopia and Hinterlands.
And then I need to find/make a big suitcase to fit everything.

[() | (_) ^/]

.

[flies]

long dead thread here, but I was looking around for what people here think of other deckbuilders and this thread showed up.

I have to say that I was surprised to find that people don't think Thunderstone is very thematic.  Heroes kill monsters aided by equipment.  Go to town or go to the dungeon.  I guess the monster carcasses having effects is a little weird, but, idno, maybe it's like honor or something.  (I've only played a few times, fwiw.)

Agree, disagree?

[DG]

Thunderstone has one of the worst fits of mechanics to theme I've ever seen in a game. It is awful. People complain about spending treasure in Dominion but keeping it in your deck. In Thunderstone you spend rations to buy a feast and keep the rations and keep the feast. That's entirely illogical. Don't get me started on the elves who specialize in firing arrows into the furthest reaches of dark underground caves. The game is entirely more suited to catching butterflies than fighting dangerous monsters in a dungeon since there is never any risk of your adventurers getting killed.

The only thing it has going for it is a shallow copying of themes found throughout fantasy literature, with nothing new added. As soon as you realize how the Dominion theme suits a gateway game it becomes obvious how the fantasy theme restricts Thunderstone to a niche market of nerds and geeks (who will speak Klingon when they grow older).

[Davio]

Well, Treasures in Dominion were originally called "... Mine" as represent a source of income, but it was too wordy and in the end Dominion chose simplicity over theme. I'm glad it did.