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Author Topic: Watchtower and the lose track rule  (Read 5445 times)

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Tables

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Watchtower and the lose track rule
« on: October 17, 2012, 09:38:01 pm »
0

I think I already know the answer to this, but I thought it was worth checking. If I use Watchtower to trash a card, can I use Watchtower's reaction to move the trashed card on top of my deck? This matters for e.g. Market Square.

I think the answer is no, Watchtower loses track of the gained/trashed card, so it can't move it after it's been trashed.
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TWoos

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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2012, 10:51:43 pm »
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Watchtower gives you a choice; when you gain a card, you may reveal Watchtower; then either trash the card or put it on top of your deck.

So, if you use Watchtower to trash a card...  you're no longer gaining it, and you cannot use Watchtower to do anything further to it.  It's not a matter of losing track.  You had a choice.  You can't choose one way, then choose again the other.

The second part here, can you still discard Market Square to get that gold, assuming you choose to trash?  If you never gain the card in question, can you really call it 'yours'...  I'd say no.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 10:53:23 pm by TWoos »
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AJD

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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2012, 11:00:18 pm »
+1

Watchtower gives you a choice; when you gain a card, you may reveal Watchtower; then either trash the card or put it on top of your deck.

So, if you use Watchtower to trash a card...  you're no longer gaining it, and you cannot use Watchtower to do anything further to it.  It's not a matter of losing track.  You had a choice.  You can't choose one way, then choose again the other.

No, strictly speaking Tables is right. When you gain a card, if you have two Watchtowers in your hand, they both get triggered and so you can reveal them both (but you have to choose an order to do it in). By the general rule of Reactions, this implies that you could reveal the same Watchtower twice to the same gain (since your opponent can't prove you're not revealing two different ones). If you can reveal a Watchtower twice, you can make different choices each time you reveal it—once to trash and once to top-deck. However, only the one you choose first will have an effect, since the Watchtower will have lost track of the gained card after the first reveal.

Silly exception: if, due to Nomad Camp or Develop or whatever, the gained card was going to your deck anyway, you could reveal Watchtower to redundantly top-deck it and then reveal the same Watchtower to trash it. I guess.

Quote
The second part here, can you still discard Market Square to get that gold, assuming you choose to trash?  If you never gain the card in question, can you really call it 'yours'...  I'd say no.

Who says you never gain the card in question? Watchtower says "when you gain"—if you never gained the card in question, you couldn't reveal Watchtower at all. When you use Watchtower to trash, you gain, and then you trash.
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TWoos

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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2012, 11:51:19 pm »
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After reading Watchtower again, I realized it says 'when you gain', and not 'if you would gain' or some variation of.

So, I think I was wrong.
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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2012, 04:11:40 am »
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I got a bit lost in your explanation there Tables, mostly because Watchtower can't do anything with trashed cards. But! Since you mention Market Square: do you mean reveal Watchtower to trash a card, then reveal Market Square to gain a gold? As far as I understand it MS says "when one of your cards is trashed", but I'm not sure that the trashed card ever gets to be yours to begin with.

Suggestions?
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AJD

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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2012, 08:43:35 am »
+3

Since you mention Market Square: do you mean reveal Watchtower to trash a card, then reveal Market Square to gain a gold? As far as I understand it MS says "when one of your cards is trashed", but I'm not sure that the trashed card ever gets to be yours to begin with.

When you use Watchtower to trash a card. You first must gain the card. And then you trash it. So the card that's being trashed is your card. Because you gained it before trashing it.
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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2012, 09:33:14 am »
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Consider my forehead smacked.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2012, 12:13:06 pm »
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This discussion does make me curious about a theoretical rule though.... if there were a Watchtower-type card that said "when you would gain a card, you may reveal this. If you do, trash that card instead" would you be able to reveal that card, and then reveal Market Square to gain a gold? I'd guess most likely not, since Market Square indeed only cares about when one of "your" cards is trashed. But you could definitely argue that it is "your" card... especially if you had just bought it.
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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2012, 12:15:43 pm »
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As far as I know, there's no way to trash a card that is not yours. Am I wrong?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 12:27:43 pm by Jimmmmm »
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AJD

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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2012, 12:25:08 pm »
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This discussion does make me curious about a theoretical rule though.... if there were a Watchtower-type card that said "when you would gain a card, you may reveal this. If you do, trash that card instead" would you be able to reveal that card, and then reveal Market Square to gain a gold? I'd guess most likely not, since Market Square indeed only cares about when one of "your" cards is trashed. But you could definitely argue that it is "your" card... especially if you had just bought it.

I think you're right.
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AJD

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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2012, 12:26:52 pm »
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As far as I know, there's no way to trash card that is not yours. Am I wrong?

Agreed. Though the way Market Square is worded makes me wonder if there's going to be a trash-from-supply card or the like coming up in Guilds.
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Brando Commando

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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2012, 12:31:54 pm »
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As far as I know, there's no way to trash card that is not yours. Am I wrong?

Agreed. Though the way Market Square is worded makes me wonder if there's going to be a trash-from-supply card or the like coming up in Guilds.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but "trashing a card that is not yours" happens frequently if we're taking that statement literally (Swindler, Saboteur, the Knights and Dames, maybe some more I'm not thinking of).

Do you mean "trash a card that's in the supply that's not yours" or "trash a card that is about to become yours but isn't really yours yet"? I'm not trying to split hairs, I just don't think it's clear from what you're saying.

Edit: I think this is why Market Square is worded so that you can either be initiating the trashing yourself or be reacting to a trash that was forced upon you. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're getting at re: Market Square's wording.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 12:33:48 pm by Brando Commando »
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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2012, 12:36:59 pm »
+2

As far as I know, there's no way to trash card that is not yours. Am I wrong?

Agreed. Though the way Market Square is worded makes me wonder if there's going to be a trash-from-supply card or the like coming up in Guilds.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but "trashing a card that is not yours" happens frequently if we're taking that statement literally (Swindler, Saboteur, the Knights and Dames, maybe some more I'm not thinking of).

Do you mean "trash a card that's in the supply that's not yours" or "trash a card that is about to become yours but isn't really yours yet"? I'm not trying to split hairs, I just don't think it's clear from what you're saying.

No, when an opponent plays a trashing attack, you trash your own card. Swindler: "Each other player trashes the top card of his deck", Saboteur: "He trashes that card", Knights: "Each other player... trashes one of them". So regardless of whether you want to, or who plays the card which initiates it, the only cards you can trash are your own.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2012, 12:51:31 pm »
+1

As far as I know, there's no way to trash card that is not yours. Am I wrong?

Agreed. Though the way Market Square is worded makes me wonder if there's going to be a trash-from-supply card or the like coming up in Guilds.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but "trashing a card that is not yours" happens frequently if we're taking that statement literally (Swindler, Saboteur, the Knights and Dames, maybe some more I'm not thinking of).

Do you mean "trash a card that's in the supply that's not yours" or "trash a card that is about to become yours but isn't really yours yet"? I'm not trying to split hairs, I just don't think it's clear from what you're saying.

No, when an opponent plays a trashing attack, you trash your own card. Swindler: "Each other player trashes the top card of his deck", Saboteur: "He trashes that card", Knights: "Each other player... trashes one of them". So regardless of whether you want to, or who plays the card which initiates it, the only cards you can trash are your own.

True. So with the current set of cards, Market Square would behave identically if it said "When you trash a card" instead of "when one of your cards is trashed." It's possible that Donald chose this wording because some day you'll be able to trash a card that isn't yours, but I think it's more likely that he chose that wording just to make it clear that if someone Saboteurs or Knights or Swindles you, that you really can use Market Square. Even though you could have with the other wording as well, there would have been lots of people asking if you can, or assuming you can't, because they don't read literally enough.
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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2012, 01:01:26 pm »
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To the great annoyance to those of us with a little OCD, Catacombs, Cultist, Feodum, Fortress, Squire and Overgrown Estate read "When you trash this", while Hunting Grounds, Rats and Sir Vander read "When this is trashed". It'd be nice if Guilds gave a reason for this seemingly unnecessary difference in wording.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 04:35:46 pm by Jimmmmm »
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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2012, 02:07:35 pm »
+3

To the great annoyance to those of us with a little OCD, Catacombs, Cultist, Feodum, Fortress, Squire and Overgrown Estate read "When you trash this", while Hunting Grounds, Rats and Sir Vander read "When this is trashed". It'd be nice if Guilds gave a reason for this seemingly unnecessary difference in wording.
?

http://dominion.diehrstraits.com/?set=Dark%20Ages
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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2012, 02:44:14 pm »
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.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 10:03:11 am by () | (_) ^/ »
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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2012, 04:35:22 pm »
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What do you know, the article on the front page of Dominion Strategy is wrong. Guess I should read the actual cards then...
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Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2016, 05:41:54 pm »
+2

As far as I know, there's no way to trash card that is not yours. Am I wrong?

Agreed. Though the way Market Square is worded makes me wonder if there's going to be a trash-from-supply card or the like coming up in Guilds.

Not in Guilds, but in Empires!  :)
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