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Author Topic: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?  (Read 4735 times)

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jamespotter

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Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« on: October 17, 2012, 05:02:44 pm »
0

I have played many games with Ill-Gotten Gains, and every time, I feel it comes down to who gets the lucky 6-4 split on it. I understand that it depends on the set-up, but are there any strategies that tend to have a good chance of defeating it?
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werothegreat

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2012, 05:07:47 pm »
+2

I have played many games with Ill-Gotten Gains, and every time, I feel it comes down to who gets the lucky 6-4 split on it. I understand that it depends on the set-up, but are there any strategies that tend to have a good chance of defeating it?

Buy Gold, and hope there's a trasher.  Coppersmith would help.
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jonts26

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2012, 05:09:40 pm »
+1

Well for starters, like any sort of 'rush as many of these cards as possible' deals, sometimes figuring out what else to buy is going to be very valuable. Sometimes it's obvious, but sometimes there might be other things to supplement the rush which require a bit of creativity.

And secondly, even in a boring IGG/duchy rush mirror, figuring out when to transition from IGG's to duchies is very important. Often, you want to start grabbing duchies before the IGG pile is empty. Maybe when there's only one or two left. The reasoning being, well, at that stage of the game, handing out an extra curse and winning the IGG split is probably not as good as winning the duchy split 5-3.
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DStu

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2012, 05:12:04 pm »
0

I have played many games with Ill-Gotten Gains, and every time, I feel it comes down to who gets the lucky 6-4 split on it. I understand that it depends on the set-up, but are there any strategies that tend to have a good chance of defeating it?

Strong trashing (Steward, Remake, Chapel) in combination with strong other $5s tend to defeat the IGG-rush. You handle the Curses quite well, while your opponent spend $5-buys on worse Silvers. Until the IGGs are low, you are on the best way to an engine, while the IGGplayer has nothing more than a BigMoney deck without Golds.
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jamespotter

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2012, 05:27:03 pm »
0

Thanks for the advice! I guess what I was looking for was a less random way of winning those IGG games. I'll have to try the Gold+trashing and $5+trashing against it.
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TWoos

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2012, 06:00:08 pm »
0

Might Embargo help?
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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2012, 06:06:43 pm »
+4

Embargo definitely kills the rush. Best counter to IGG is using veto mode though.
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2012, 06:07:16 pm »
0

Have you read the IGG article on the main site?

Some cards have the potential to make the IGG/Duchy rush very awkward by ensuring the Curses and IGGs don't run out at the same time. Then your opponent is forced to either buy Curses or buy IGGs without the benefit of Cursing you, to a degree that might become impractical. This ist includes Cursers, Ambassador, Moat, Trader, Watchtower (if you buy Curses and trash them yourself) and probably others.

Like all cards with on-gain benefits, IGG is also a pretty decent TfB candidate.
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TWoos

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2012, 06:17:04 pm »
0

I did read the article.

Ambassador & Masquerade work to dump curses on your opponent.  That's great.  Trader works to turn that incoming curse into Silver.  Also great.

Trader needs to be in hand, and Ambassador/Masquerade work after the fact.  Other trashing just dumps Curses, other Cursers try to empty the Curses first.

Oh, and City is good if none of the above can help.


But Embargo kills the whole concept, for a $2 card.  You can always pick it up in the opening, and shut down IGG fast.  (Not that I would automatically take that approach unless I've played against someone enough to know that if IGG shows up, it will be rushed, and I'm sick of dealing with it.)
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Qvist

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2012, 03:26:34 am »
0

Buy Mountebank, Witch or any other Curser. Because the rush isn't that strong with any other curser on the board.
Buy Masquerade or Ambassador and give him the curses back.
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dondon151

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2012, 04:18:32 am »
0

IGG rushes can be beaten with strong engines that have good trashing. Pretty obvious, but some people forget that not every board with IGG is necessarily an IGG rush in any sense of the term.
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loppo

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2012, 05:43:22 am »
+2

I remember a game, where pirate ships totally killed the ill-gotten gains rush. The ill-gotten gains player has to make 18 buys to 3-pile so that gives the piate ships at least 20 turns in the game.

Since the pirate ships are guaranteed to hit money, they grow really fast, and you can easily go on to provinces and win by quite a margin, even if you eat all 10 curses.

Something like this. Buy Pirate ships whenever possible, until they are worth 6 coins. then buy Provinces when possible, or continue upgrading. When Pirate ships are at 8, buy out the remaining Provinces.

Would be interesting to see some Simulation to prove
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Davio

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2012, 12:10:47 pm »
0

Someone tried to rush IGGs against my Hunting Party stack with a Remake, good times, I tell you.
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DStu

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2012, 12:17:22 pm »
0

Someone tried to rush IGGs against my Hunting Party stack with a Remake, good times, I tell you.

I once tried to rush IGGs against Cities with Steward, bad times, I tell you.
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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2012, 02:27:28 pm »
+1

I remember a game, where pirate ships totally killed the ill-gotten gains rush. The ill-gotten gains player has to make 18 buys to 3-pile so that gives the piate ships at least 20 turns in the game.

Since the pirate ships are guaranteed to hit money, they grow really fast, and you can easily go on to provinces and win by quite a margin, even if you eat all 10 curses.

Something like this. Buy Pirate ships whenever possible, until they are worth 6 coins. then buy Provinces when possible, or continue upgrading. When Pirate ships are at 8, buy out the remaining Provinces.

Would be interesting to see some Simulation to prove
Non-optimized IGG
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'IGG'
  author: 'Dstu'
  requires: ["Ill-Gotten Gains"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province"
    "Ill-Gotten Gains"
    "Duchy"
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Gold"
    "Silver"
  ]
 
  gainCopperPriority: (state, my) -> [yes]
}
vs. non-optimized Pirate Ship
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'Pirate Ship'
  author: 'Dstu'
  requires: ['Pirate Ship']
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province"
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Pirate Ship"
    "Silver"
  ]
}
ties.  Pirate Ship default rules is attack unless it will bring you to $8 and has 5 tokens on mat.
IGG always takes Copper because it is better than never taking it, and being clever is difficult.  Seems like more space to optimize there, while the PS of course has more potential from other kingsomd cards.
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Robz888

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2012, 02:31:04 pm »
+5

IGG rushes are a lot more sophisticated than people give them credit for. They also make some small, stupid cards matter more often, like Coppersmith, Counting House, Remodel, Navigator, for instance.
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loppo

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2012, 02:35:31 am »
0

Non-optimized IGG
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'IGG'
  author: 'Dstu'
  requires: ["Ill-Gotten Gains"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province"
    "Ill-Gotten Gains"
    "Duchy"
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Gold"
    "Silver"
  ]
 
  gainCopperPriority: (state, my) -> [yes]
}
vs. non-optimized Pirate Ship
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'Pirate Ship'
  author: 'Dstu'
  requires: ['Pirate Ship']
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province"
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Pirate Ship"
    "Silver"
  ]
}
ties.  Pirate Ship default rules is attack unless it will bring you to $8 and has 5 tokens on mat.
IGG always takes Copper because it is better than never taking it, and being clever is difficult.  Seems like more space to optimize there, while the PS of course has more potential from other kingsomd cards.

Thanks, for the run through the Simulator. Good to know that pirate ships can  indeed be  on par with an ill-gotten gains rush. With the upside of possibly taking advantage from other kingdomcards.
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Asklepios

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2012, 07:09:44 am »
0

IGG rushes are a lot more sophisticated than people give them credit for. They also make some small, stupid cards matter more often, like Coppersmith, Counting House, Remodel, Navigator, for instance.

I agree.

The right path to $5 matters too. Salvager and Horse Traders are smart ways to get that first $5, for example, for their benefit in getting the first IGG, and for their later game benefits - Salvager to turn the IGG into more IGGs or VP, and Horse Traders to turn a lightly curse laden hand into a Duchy buying hand.
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CopperrCopper

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2012, 12:48:58 pm »
0

Given you are both rushing IGG, i think the best support is anything with a +buy which will help in winning the 3rd pile (estates or duchies probably). A simple woodcutter works well here.
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popsofctown

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2012, 03:45:46 pm »
+2

IGG rushes are a lot more sophisticated than people give them credit for. They also make some small, stupid cards matter more often, like Coppersmith, Counting House, Remodel, Navigator, for instance.
I agree

I always get mad when people complain about IGG more than DoubleJack :(
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brokoli

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2012, 05:17:03 pm »
0

IGG rushes are a lot more sophisticated than people give them credit for. They also make some small, stupid cards matter more often, like Coppersmith, Counting House, Remodel, Navigator, for instance.
I agree

I always get mad when people complain about IGG more than DoubleJack :(

Or minion.
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hamcannon

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2012, 08:09:21 pm »
0

Give them curses from non-IGG sources and just go for provinces. If there's no other cursing on the board, well, often all you can really do is try to 5-3 the duchies while they 6-4 the IGGs and win that way.

If you give them three curses, thats a 7-3 split, and they have to spend three turns buying bad silvers at $5 to three-pile the game. Four curses is even better, and at 5 you've pretty much got the game.
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zahlman

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2012, 09:22:30 pm »
0

Some cards have the potential to make the IGG/Duchy rush very awkward by ensuring the Curses and IGGs don't run out at the same time. Then your opponent is forced to either buy Curses or buy IGGs without the benefit of Cursing you, to a degree that might become impractical. This ist includes Cursers, Ambassador, Moat, Trader, Watchtower (if you buy Curses and trash them yourself) and probably others.

Moat won't block the incoming Curse, because opponent didn't play an Attack card (he bought a Treasure). Watchtower, OTOH, will block them and you don't have to buy them yourself; it's a Reaction, after all.
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timchen

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2012, 04:31:14 pm »
0

Someone tried to rush IGGs against my Hunting Party stack with a Remake, good times, I tell you.

This... I think, depends on how fast you can get a few HPs early. Early draw makes a huge difference. If you can't even get 1 HP in your turn 3-4 (which is unfortunately not that unlikely with remake+silver), I think the outlook is pretty grim.
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h1402686

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2016, 12:49:36 am »
+3

Unless I'm losing my mind, this (simplified) does it:
  • Buy a Smithy
  • Play standard big money until your opponent has bought 4 IGGs
  • Then green hard: make a bunch of Duchies disappear before the IGGs run out, but go for Provinces and Estates too
I've pasted a Smithy bot below that beats the stock IGG bot 74-22 and a Council Room bot that wins 79-18. So a blind rush with no building isn't best here, although I'm not claiming IGG should actually be ignored either.

Smithy
Code: [Select]
<player name="Smithy for IGG"
 author="h1402686"
 description="Smithy bot optimized to beat IGG">
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="7.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Smithy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="countAllCardsInDeck"/>
         <extra_operation type="divideBy" attribute="22.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

Council Room
Code: [Select]
<player name="Council Room for IGG"
 author="h1402686"
 description="Council Room bot optimized to beat IGG">
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="7.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="7.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Council_Room">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Council_Room"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="countAllCardsInDeck"/>
         <extra_operation type="divideBy" attribute="16.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 12:51:20 am by h1402686 »
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Qvist

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2016, 03:21:41 am »
+2

h1402686 is winning the necro game.

Btw, IGG rushes aren't considered that strong anymore, not like after Hinterlands just came out. Any decent engine with trashing should beat the IGG rush handily nowadays.
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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2016, 08:46:19 am »
+1

lol remember when Ill Gotten Gains was a great card and when people thought removing 1 Curse from the pile somehow completely broke an otherwise viable strategy
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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2016, 02:52:15 pm »
0

lol remember when Ill Gotten Gains was a great card and when people thought removing 1 Curse from the pile somehow completely broke an otherwise viable strategy


Yeah, we were never fooled like those sad, pathetic noobs.
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Davio

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2016, 04:16:36 am »
+1

h1402686 is winning the necro game.

Btw, IGG rushes aren't considered that strong anymore, not like after Hinterlands just came out. Any decent engine with trashing should beat the IGG rush handily nowadays.
The upside of IGG is that it isn't attack, so you can circumvent things like Lighthouse and Moat (or other benefits one would get from reacting to an attack), but not Watchtower, Trader, etc.
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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2016, 05:09:17 pm »
0

I have played many games with Ill-Gotten Gains, and every time, I feel it comes down to who gets the lucky 6-4 split on it. I understand that it depends on the set-up, but are there any strategies that tend to have a good chance of defeating it?

IGG is usually a trap. If there is no trashing, it still might be too slow to win. In the rare case that Cursing your opponent with IGG is actually good, well, you're stuck with winning the split. But usually there's a better way.
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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2016, 05:12:00 pm »
0

Or minion.

Actually, straight Smithy BM beats Minion BM. It's close, but Smithy has the edge percentage-wise.
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faust

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2016, 06:59:37 am »
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Or minion.

Actually, straight Smithy BM beats Minion BM. It's close, but Smithy has the edge percentage-wise.

Well, Minion is less trivial to play optimally - you have to consider not triggering bad reshuffles and weigh attacking your opponent vs getting money; potentially even track your opponent's deck to know when he's got a good hand. With all that, I think a perfectly executed Minion-BM can beat Smithy.
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Wins: M30, M36, M41, M53, M55, M63, M66, M71, M74, M75, M77, RMM11, RMM12, RMM14, RMM16, RMM18, RMM23, NMV, M31, M42, M56, M65, RMM20, RMM24, RMM28, M61, RMM22
Losses: NM4, M33, M35, M37, M38, M45, M46, M60, M68, M69, M82, RMM13, RMM21, RMM26, M43, M51, M58, M72, M83, RMM15, RMM33

MVPs: M41, M53, M63, M65, M66, RMM20, RMM24, RMM28
Win percentage: 56.3 (27/48)
Modded games: M40, M50, M59, M69, M79, RMM19, RMM25, RMM30

Most people are complete idiots.

Chris is me

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Re: Request: Countering Ill-Gotten Gains?
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2016, 07:35:53 am »
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Or minion.

Actually, straight Smithy BM beats Minion BM. It's close, but Smithy has the edge percentage-wise.

Well, Minion is less trivial to play optimally - you have to consider not triggering bad reshuffles and weigh attacking your opponent vs getting money; potentially even track your opponent's deck to know when he's got a good hand. With all that, I think a perfectly executed Minion-BM can beat Smithy.

There's also the whole thing where playing a non-terminal draw BM strategy without any support is just unrealistic. Throw even a shitty Trasher in there or a mildly beneficial cantrip or something and Minion strategies get better. And does Minion BM buy a bunch of Silvers and Golds?
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