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Author Topic: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake  (Read 9948 times)

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sandstorm

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A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« on: October 17, 2012, 01:39:32 am »
0
Just kidding.  This mistake is HUGE!!!!

A big thumb to the first person who can figure out the major goko error with this game ... try to ignore my brutal play


http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20121016/log.505cc44351c3ef8aa76faa56.1350452031440.txt
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2012, 01:43:48 am »
0
He also has a Sea Hag on turn 2. Not that I would mind. Is this a an adventure?
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sandstorm

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2012, 01:46:03 am »
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This is not an adventure.  It was a pro game against another human.

I'm not sure I understand your sea hag comment but regardless that is not the major problem with this game.
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ftl

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2012, 02:07:38 am »
+9
Bug: Goko logs are still really hard to read compared to isotropic logs.
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ftl

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2012, 02:08:31 am »
+1
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sparky5856

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2012, 02:09:36 am »
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the duchy purchase with $8 gave it away >_<

As for the turn 2 Sea Hag, he just drew it at the clean-up phase. nothing unusual there.
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Dsell

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2012, 02:16:01 am »
+5
Quote from: ftl on October 17, 2012, 02:08:31 am
https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/an_empty_province_pile_does_not_end_the_game_when_colonies_are_in_play ?

Well it shouldn't be a problem any more because according to this they were fixing it nine days ago! And you know how Goko likes to address problems promptly and fully.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2012, 08:14:04 am »
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That Get satisfaction thread is depressing.
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Insomniac

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2012, 10:54:15 am »
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Quote from: Captain_Frisk on October 17, 2012, 08:14:04 am
That Get satisfaction thread is depressing.

FTFY
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Ozle

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2012, 10:59:08 am »
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2012, 11:01:57 am »
+1
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Insomniac

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2012, 11:11:33 am »
+1
One of my favourite bugs is when you beat someone lower ranked than you you can lose rating.
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greatexpectations

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2012, 11:20:37 am »
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Quote from: Insomniac on October 17, 2012, 11:11:33 am
One of my favourite bugs is when you beat someone lower ranked than you you can lose rating.

technically this can happen with TrueSkill too.
------------------
Q: Well there must be a bug in the system because I jumped into a 4 person race with 3 lower ranked individuals, won the race and my position in the league I was in dropped about 50 spots.

A: Surprisingly, this is not a bug and it happens when players with very small σ but widely varying μ get matched together (thanks to rugdivot for figuring this out). For example, try this link.

So, what is going on here? Between any two games of a gamer, the TrueSkill ranking system assumes that the true skill of a gamer, that is, μ, can have changed slightly either up or down; this property is what allows the ranking system to adapt to a change in the skill of a gamer. Technically, this is achieved by a small increase in the σ of each participating gamer before the game outcome is incorporated. Usually, a game outcome provides enough pieces of information to reduce this increased uncertainty. But, in a badly matched game (as the one described above) this is not the case; in this case, nothing can be learned about the winner from the game outcome (because it was already known before the game that the winner was significantly higher ranked than the other gamers he has beaten). So, conservatively speaking, the winner's skill might have slightly decreased! Note that this can only happen if the gamer is not matched correctly so that he can "prove" to the TrueSkill ranking system that his skill has not changed.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 11:27:39 am by greatexpectations »
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Kirian

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2012, 11:22:13 am »
0
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2012, 11:23:14 am »
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Quote from: greatexpectations on October 17, 2012, 11:20:37 am
Quote from: Insomniac on October 17, 2012, 11:11:33 am
One of my favourite bugs is when you beat someone lower ranked than you you can lose rating.

technically this can happen with TrueSkill too.

Is that true?  I thought that you could basically gain damn near zero skill, but as long as the possibilities are Win / Loss / Draw, that you can't lose skill for a Win. 
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greatexpectations

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2012, 11:31:35 am »
+1
Quote from: Captain_Frisk on October 17, 2012, 11:23:14 am
Is that true?  I thought that you could basically gain damn near zero skill, but as long as the possibilities are Win / Loss / Draw, that you can't lose skill for a Win.

i edited my post to include the relevant bit from the TrueSkill FAQ. it might not be true for Isotropic, it depends i guess on how exactly dougz implemented it. but the basic idea seems to be that in the case of a severe mismatch (think Marin vs first timer), the marginal skill increase from the victory could actually be offset by the uncertainty change.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2012, 11:52:36 am »
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Quote from: greatexpectations on October 17, 2012, 11:31:35 am
Quote from: Captain_Frisk on October 17, 2012, 11:23:14 am
Is that true?  I thought that you could basically gain damn near zero skill, but as long as the possibilities are Win / Loss / Draw, that you can't lose skill for a Win.

i edited my post to include the relevant bit from the TrueSkill FAQ. it might not be true for Isotropic, it depends i guess on how exactly dougz implemented it. but the basic idea seems to be that in the case of a severe mismatch (think Marin vs first timer), the marginal skill increase from the victory could actually be offset by the uncertainty change.

Ahhh.  Makes sense.  I think DougZ put the uncertainty increase change on a daily basis.  Of course, we don't really know what the ranking # on goko is... is it mean skill - uncertainty?   Is it just the mean skill #? 
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greatexpectations

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2012, 11:55:04 am »
+4
Quote from: Captain_Frisk on October 17, 2012, 11:52:36 am
Ahhh.  Makes sense.  I think DougZ put the uncertainty increase change on a daily basis.  Of course, we don't really know what the ranking # on goko is... is it mean skill - uncertainty?   Is it just the mean skill #?

well we can find that out easy enough. rabid asked for specific numbers related to how the rankings worked in the last goko Q&A, just go look at goko's response :).
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DStu

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2012, 11:58:35 am »
+1
Quote from: greatexpectations on October 17, 2012, 11:31:35 am
Quote from: Captain_Frisk on October 17, 2012, 11:23:14 am
Is that true?  I thought that you could basically gain damn near zero skill, but as long as the possibilities are Win / Loss / Draw, that you can't lose skill for a Win.

i edited my post to include the relevant bit from the TrueSkill FAQ. it might not be true for Isotropic, it depends i guess on how exactly dougz implemented it. but the basic idea seems to be that in the case of a severe mismatch (think Marin vs first timer), the marginal skill increase from the victory could actually be offset by the uncertainty change.

In the next-to-last implementation (and probably the one before that), I'm quite sure that this could also happen on Isotropic.  The next-to-last increased your \sigma once per day for every day on which you played a game. So if you play just one game, and the gain on mean skill was lower than the increase of uncertainity, you would lose rank despite winning. The one before afair  increased uncertainity with every game, so probably was original TS.
Now, it increases your uncertainity each day no matter if you play or not, so maybe this does not happen in this version, as there is no need to increase uncertainity per game when you increase it per day, and the whole change seems like it was made to come around the need to increase \sigma each game, for some reason.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2012, 08:13:22 pm »
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Quote from: Insomniac on October 17, 2012, 11:11:33 am
One of my favourite bugs is when you beat someone lower ranked than you you can lose rating.

I reported that to them a long time ago. Interesting to see all these other bugs pop up that we beta testers didn't even catch.
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sandstorm

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2012, 09:22:27 pm »
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Quote from: ftl on October 17, 2012, 02:07:38 am
Bug: Goko logs are still really hard to read compared to isotropic logs.

I gave you a double +1 for finding the secret bonus bug
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Grujah

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2012, 09:53:47 pm »
0
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lympi

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2012, 01:30:53 am »
+10
Quote from: sandstorm on October 17, 2012, 09:22:27 pm
Quote from: ftl on October 17, 2012, 02:07:38 am
Bug: Goko logs are still really hard to read compared to isotropic logs.

I gave you a double +1 for finding the secret bonus bug

Whenever I read one of these threads pointing out yet another glaring bug in Goko, I picture Jeff Bridges in the first Iron Man movie yelling at his underlings' inability to recreate the arc reactor: "TONY STARK BUILT THIS IN A CAVE!"

Only here it's "DOUGZ BUILT ISOTROPIC IN HIS SPARE TIME!"

Seriously. One guy created an online implementation of Dominion in his free time far better than an entire team with millions of dollars behind them ever will. Sad.
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LastFootnote

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2012, 11:11:36 am »
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Quote from: lympi on October 18, 2012, 01:30:53 am
Seriously. One guy created an online implementation of Dominion in his free time far better than an entire team with millions of dollars behind them ever will. Sad.

Agreed. I think the big difference is that DougZ really knew the game mechanics well when he started coding. There are tons of bad assumptions about the Dominion mechanics that are really easy to make if you're not an expert at the game, and Goko made most of them. Fixing those mechanics after you've built the entire game already is a nightmare.
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DStu

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Re: A Tiny Little Goko Rule Mistake
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2012, 11:15:54 am »
+2
Quote from: LastFootnote on October 18, 2012, 11:11:36 am
Quote from: lympi on October 18, 2012, 01:30:53 am
Seriously. One guy created an online implementation of Dominion in his free time far better than an entire team with millions of dollars behind them ever will. Sad.

Agreed. I think the big difference is that DougZ really knew the game mechanics well when he started coding. There are tons of bad assumptions about the Dominion mechanics that are really easy to make if you're not an expert at the game, and Goko made most of them. Fixing those mechanics after you've built the entire game already is a nightmare.

Also, as Isotropic is the private beta for Dominion, Isotropic itself has some really good beta testers...
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