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[Cuzz]

Others have pointed out that Galz has been on every townie lynch but was not on the one scum lynch that we have had. I decided to focus my skim read on him there. I am not going to quote sorry (I am kinda in a rush trying to get this down before leaving for the day).

In skimming through I noticed that Galz had abundant opportunities day 2 to put a vote down on ashersky. He almost hammered him mid-day 2. But didn't.

He also had multiple opportunities to join the final ashersky wagon, but didn't.

It seems that some people are getting a scum read based off this, and understandably so. But I am actually getting a town read based off my previous playing experience with Galz in Blitz1 when we were both mafia together.

In Blitz1 Galz basically said that if I received any pressure at all, he would not hesitate to bus me and press for my lynch, and he did heavily day 3 in, both before my attempt to quick hammer and after. But because he didn't press or hammer ashersky in this game I have a harder time seeing Galz as scum. I think scum-Galz would have bussed ashersky hard after ash received heavy pressure.

Quick response to this: Galz likes to use the "scum Galz doesn't play like this so I can't be scum" argument in this game, which I really don't like when it comes from the person in question. I haven't played too much with Galz but based on his reputation I think he's good enouh player to not play the same every time he's scum.

I've played in M-II, M-III, M-IV, M-V, M-VI, M-VII, M-VIII, M-IX, M-XI, M-III*, M-XIV* and M-XV*.

I've used that argument in EVERY game I've played since my first where nobody knew me and I was playing my first ever game. The only game I've been mafia in? M-II. I was lynched in M-III and M-VII. NK'd in M-IV, M-IX and M-XI. Lived to the end in M-VI, M-V and M-VIII.

People like to claim I'm Mafia. Been that way for a long, long time. They use a baseless argument that "scum Galz wouldn't play like he did in the past, thus his playing like *every other game in recent memory where he was town*, MUST mean he's scum here!" They've been wrong every time.

The only other game I've been scum in was ZM-1, where Yuma was my partner. If Yuma is town here, he knows the difference between my mafia play and my town play, and he knows this isn't me as scum.

For my part, I need to compile the cases, but my biggest scum read is Joth. Second to that is Cuzz. Yuma is my strongest town read, with Grujah second towniest. Soo... Joth -> Cuzz -> Grujah -> Yuma.

I still get hung up on the number of times Joth has been Chickened... And yet... Coming into this game he had not yet ever rolled Mafia. I could see using the mechanic to hide behind newness. Certainly his rate of chickening is suspiciously high to me one way or another. I just need to figure out if it's more likely to be a scum misdirect, or a scum frame. Not sure.

The fact that you've only been scum in one previous game is all the more reason that the "scum Galz doesn't play like this" defense is worthless. There's only a single sample of what scum Galz even is then!

I'm not gonna continue arguing about this though because I never find arguing with someone I think is possible scum about whether or not they are scum to be productive. I'll discuss it with others.

And PPE: this is a decent point joth.

[Galzria]

Then vote me and end the game.

[jotheonah]

Also, Eevee and Insom have both found Galz scummy all game and are dead now.

Galz, are you at L1?

[jotheonah]

No, you are not.

Vote: Galzria

[Galzria]

Cool. Scum can come hammer now.

Except they can't, because you're scum.

Vote: Joth

[jotheonah]

FWIW, my lack of engagement with this game is unfortunate, but it's also a towntell. When I was in a bunch of games, this is the one I ignored. It's now known that I was town in all of them. If this had been my one game as scum, would I have payed so little attention to it?

Lurked it, maybe, if I thought that was the best strategy. But actually just didn't read it carefully or post at all? Unlikely.

I know self-meta is garbage, but I thought that might be worth putting out there.

Ok, fine, I'll unvote. I'm all for taking the time to talk, and I guess quickhammers are a thing.

[jotheonah]

I'm not worried about one on me, however.

[jotheonah]

Grujah, what would you say if we said we're holding you to your bargain with Robz, and we want to lynch you today?

I consider that Robz broke that deal off and that I am not obliged to go by it.
If town's consensus says that I am wrong and that I still need to keep my part, as town has less subjective view on the issue, I will take that judgement and vote myself as promised.

Grujah, I would like to now hold you to this deal. Will you self-vote?

[Galzria]

I'll offer #1605 and #1606 as further evidence that Joth is scum:

"Ok, fine, I'll unvote. I'm all for taking the the time to talk."

If Joth had actually believed I was scum when he voted for me, then he would also believe I couldn't be quick-hammered because "quickhammering" could only happen if I was town.

Why unvote me then? Either he thinks I'm scum (as he made clear) or he knows I'm town. The only reason to unvote is to try and get townie points for being concerned about a quickhammer.

Following up to his very next post:

"I'm not worried about one on me however"

This can only be because of two reasons:

1) He thinks I'm scum, thus there aren't two scum left to quickhammer him. This is disproved by the previous post where he unvotes me - again, if he believed this to be true, there would've been no reason to unvote me.

2) He himself is scum, thus knows there is no chance that he'll be quickhammered because his lynch still requires two more townies (or bussing). The reason for unvoting me here is pointed out above - to build town cred for caring about a "possible quickhammer" on me - something he can't believe is possible because that would mean we're both town (according to him), which means he WOULD be worried about a quick hammer on himself - which he's not.

Joth is scum.

[jotheonah]

That's pretty weak stuff, Galz.

It ignores the possibility that I'm 90% sure you're scum, but as the guy who hasn't been reading closely enough, I'm not so egotistical as to bet the game on it before everyone has said their peace.

It's been so long since I've been alive at LyLo that I forgot about the threat of quickhammer - hence the question about L-1.

[jotheonah]

Cuzz and yuma, consider a Gru-Galz team. Consider your way through a reread. I don't think I'm wrong.

[Galzria]

That's pretty weak stuff, Galz.

It ignores the possibility that I'm 90% sure you're scum, but as the guy who hasn't been reading closely enough, I'm not so egotistical as to bet the game on it before everyone has said their peace.

It's been so long since I've been alive at LyLo that I forgot about the threat of quickhammer - hence the question about L-1.

That would be true of #1605 on it's own Joth. #1606 disproves that.

[jotheonah]

No, it really doesn't. I'm sure enough you're scum to not be worried about being quickhammered. I'm not sure enough you're scum to risk ending the game prematurely with incomplete knowledge.

[Galzria]

No, it really doesn't. I'm sure enough you're scum to not be worried about being quickhammered. I'm not sure enough you're scum to risk ending the game prematurely with incomplete knowledge.

Those sentences aren't compatible, and you know it.

IF you were "sure enough that I'm scum to not be worried about being quickhammered"

THEN you would be "sure enough that I'm scum to not be worried about ME being quickhammered"

Yet you claim "concern" over the second statement, but specifically NO concern over the first.

The only reason you would have no concern for the first, while ALSO unvoting me, is because you're scum trying to buy free town cred. If you were town, then statement #1 above would make statement #2 true. But you're not town, which is why it seemed to make sense to claim one, but not the other - hence your unvote.

[jotheonah]

I'm not going to engage with scum one on one.

[Jorbles]

Vote Count 5.3

jotheonah (1): Galzria
Not voting (4): jotheonah, Grujah, Cuzz, yuma

With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.

Currently Cursed: No one.

Curse Deadline: Tuesday Nov 13, Noon PST (3 pm forum time)
Lynch Deadline: Monday Nov 16, Noon pm PST (3 pm forum time)

Mod updates: You'll notice the last Curse deadline passed. That is correct, no one is currently Cursed. Additionally, though not everyone voted, I have not heard any opposition to the extension of the lynch deadline. The new lynch deadline is above.

[yuma]

I do not believe Galz to be scum. I have read through the area you brought up and I just don't see scum in it. I don't see that Galz as scum would play that way. This isn't due to his arguments about meta. This is due to my own personal experience playing with him and my own viewpoint. Unless something drastic happens today. I will not be voting for Galz.

After deciding this I have 3 potential scum pairs left:

Cuzz/Grujah
Cuzz/jot
grujah/jot

of these players I have found Cuzz and jot to be the most scummy, but that is with the note that I haven't gone back and done a full reread on grujah... doing so should help. But I also noticed that in jot's case on Galz he said that Galz-Grujah were the scum team, but barely even mentioned Grujah... Jot do you feel as strongly about Grujah as you do about Galz?

[jotheonah]

I do feel just as strongly about Grujah.

But the thing is, Galz was also fingered by Eevee and Inomniac before they died, so that makes me feel a little more justified in my reads. 

I urge you to reconsider on Galzria. He is playing very scummily. That BS argument he JUST made about my voting and unvoting him is a good example.

[Cuzz]

yuma, if you find joth and I to be most scummy, are you saying that you think the joth/me scumteam is most likely?

[yuma]

yuma, if you find joth and I to be most scummy, are you saying that you think the joth/me scumteam is most likely?

I am saying that right now I find you and jot to be the most scummy, but with the cavat that I haven't gone back and reread Grujah and can't make that determination until I do so. That is on today's todo list.

[jotheonah]

Galzria-yuma is a possibility.

Honeslty I find it highly scummy that yuma is putting personal experience with Galzria over extremely damning wagon behavior AND fishy play throughout the game.  Completely dismissing Galz at this point is not pro-town.

[Cuzz]

yuma, if you find joth and I to be most scummy, are you saying that you think the joth/me scumteam is most likely?

I am saying that right now I find you and jot to be the most scummy, but with the cavat that I haven't gone back and reread Grujah and can't make that determination until I do so. That is on today's todo list.

What do you think of Galz/joth's votes on each other last night? Joth unvoted quickly, but Galz did not. Was that not reckless to leave a quickhammer possibility open, or, since that hasn't happened, do you think it means either joth or Galz has to be scum?

[yuma]

Galzria-yuma is a possibility.

Honeslty I find it highly scummy that yuma is putting personal experience with Galzria over extremely damning wagon behavior AND fishy play throughout the game.  Completely dismissing Galz at this point is not pro-town.

man... forget reading grujah vote: jotheonah

[Cuzz]

Vote: jotheonah

[jotheonah]

If you're not members of the scum team, you should unvote immediately before Galz gets here.