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[philosophyguy]

How do you determine how early to buy a King's Court in a set in which KC is helpful? If you get the shuffle luck to afford $7 in your second/third trip through the deck, but you only have 2-3 actions at this point, how you do decide if it's worth the risk of drawing the KC dead versus the huge bonus from drawing the KC with your action(s)?

[rod-]

you buy the king's court, and then add actions to your deck.  One shuffle with a dead KC and one shuffle with a live one is better than 2 shuffles without enough money to buy it.

[play2draw]

First you should consider if you even need a King's Court. While KC is often a no-brainer, sometimes there's a kingdom with King's Court and cards that don't benefit much when played three times. Here's a good example where both of us go through the motions and pick up King's Court without thinking. I win because I pick up the woefully underrated Adventurer and get rid of the KC nice and early.

If there are $2, $3, or $4 cards in your deck or in the supply that benefit well with a King's Court, I'd grab a KC as soon as I can. That way, if you draw your KC alone early on you can still grab a good card. If the only cards worth multiplying are $5 or $6, I *might* grab a different card on turn 3 instead depending on the setup or what my opponent is doing... but even then I'd still err on grabbing the King's Court.

[Epoch]

Yeah, I think that the enormous power of KC on the right board can sometimes blind people to when it's not very good at all.  Remember that it's a very expensive Action that needs to be drawn with other Actions, and that there are plenty of Actions which aren't spectacular, KC'd.  A KC'd Village is more Actions that you need unless you're playing Diadem and a net +1 Card -- more than likely worse than Village-Smithy.  A KC'd Militia is only $1 better than Militia/Gold, and obviously you can't draw Gold dead.  A KC'd Warehouse is, of course, terrible.  Trashing cards often don't want to be KC'd.

This is not to suggest that sometimes KC isn't the most valuable card on the board -- of course it is! -- but you shouldn't assume that it will be a power card without some serious consideration of what you want to KC, and what the result will be.

To answer the actual question:  I err on the side of buying KC late.  It's unlikely to run out -- if someone really needs more than 5 KCs to win the game, something is deeply wrong with their deck, so you shouldn't really see the pile ever get depleted unless the game is all-but-formally over.  Drawing it dead is more of a waste than drawing any other action dead, since you could've had a Gold or other high-value card in its place.  And if you're aiming for a KC in your deck, your deck ought to fairly quickly be able to produce $7 turns, so you shouldn't miss more than a shuffle or (if your first $7 comes very early) two.

[WanderingWinder]

Yeah, I think that the enormous power of KC on the right board can sometimes blind people to when it's not very good at all.  Remember that it's a very expensive Action that needs to be drawn with other Actions, and that there are plenty of Actions which aren't spectacular, KC'd.  A KC'd Village is more Actions that you need unless you're playing Diadem and a net +1 Card -- more than likely worse than Village-Smithy.  A KC'd Militia is only $1 better than Militia/Gold, and obviously you can't draw Gold dead.  A KC'd Warehouse is, of course, terrible.  Trashing cards often don't want to be KC'd.

A KC'd Warehouse really isn't bad at all, it's just not so absolutely spectacular.

This is not to suggest that sometimes KC isn't the most valuable card on the board -- of course it is! -- but you shouldn't assume that it will be a power card without some serious consideration of what you want to KC, and what the result will be.

But it isn't! Really, quite often platinum, Goons, Grand Market, Possession, even like Hoard or Gold or Golem or Vineyards or Duke can all be better, as well as province and Colony.

[Epoch]

A KC'd Warehouse really isn't bad at all, it's just not so absolutely spectacular.

Ooops, I wasn't thinking through how KC-Warehouse worked.  I was thinking that each iteration of the Warehouse diminished your hand-size, like playing 3 Warehouses in a row would.  Obviously, KC-Warehouse is better than that.

Still, a "really good" 3 card hand isn't great in my book.  Though of course if you draw KC-Warehouse-somethingx3, you can always play the Warehouse first and hope to come up with a better target for KC, so...  fair enough.

This is not to suggest that sometimes KC isn't the most valuable card on the board -- of course it is! -- but you shouldn't assume that it will be a power card without some serious consideration of what you want to KC, and what the result will be.

But it isn't! Really, quite often platinum, Goons, Grand Market, Possession, even like Hoard or Gold or Golem or Vineyards or Duke can all be better, as well as province and Colony.

I think that you're misinterpreting me.  I mean, "Of course there exist boards in which KC is the power card on the board," not, "Of course KC is always the power card on the board."

[Superdad]

Yes, but getting back to the point of the thread, I think if you get a lucky 7 early (say open silver/$2 action and get a turn 3 hand with $7), I think you still buy the KC here, don't you?

If you spend the $7 on gold, that's good and all, but it doesn't help your kings court (although it'll help you buy one later, which is why it's "good and all"). If you spend it on a $5 action, you are kinda wasting $2.

I would err towards picking up the KC too early. I would note that it's probably too early, and I consider this "unlucky" but I would still grab it now. I'd hate to pick up a Lab instead (for example) and then spend 4-5 turns getting to $6 but not higher.

If there was a strong action $6 then I'd grab that, but I'd be hesitant to spend $7 on a $5 action that I know I'll get later, but I don't know if I'll get the $7 again too soon. Sure, drawing the KC dead on turn 5 will suck if it happens, but you just use that turn to get a solid $4 or $3 action, so it's not *that* wasted. At least you still have a KC in your deck.

Am I wrong in this?

[rod-]

I think that your decision needs a lot of context, in the case of a 2nd shuffle 7$ draw...

If you opened silver/$2 action, does your $2 action benefit from being KC'd (beyond the obvious +$6)?
Are there other actions you are planning to buy to make your deck?  How many of them will you get before your next shuffle?  Do they benefit from KC?

If you open something like pawn/minion, and manage $7 (through never seeing your estates...how lucky), go right for it!
If you opened silver/militia, then you're in a grey area and should probably get something better for KCing, unless there are a lot of good 3s.  If you're going to get a curse-giver soon (young witch loves being KC'd, in my experience, but doesn't contribute towards a 2nd shuffle 7$), i'd go for it anyway. ..The blowout of handing out 3 curses in 1 early shuffle outweighs the chance of missing 1 draw. 

[WanderingWinder]

Basically, I think it comes down to whether or not you want KCs on that board or not. If you do, you probably want as many of them as quick as you can get them. If not, well then you obviously don't want it. There are probably some slight exceptions here, but I doubt that there are very many.

[Epoch]

Yes, but getting back to the point of the thread, I think if you get a lucky 7 early (say open silver/$2 action and get a turn 3 hand with $7), I think you still buy the KC here, don't you?

I probably don't.  I mean, what's the $2 action?  There's a limited number of cards that can get you $7 on turn 3/4, and most of them are either unspectacular with KC or need supporting cards with it.  Smithy, for example, is great as long as you have an Action after playing KC/Smithy, but pretty bad otherwise.  Swindler and Bridge are exceptions, Pawn may be as well (though Pawn is a very rare $7 hand).

And remember that your other turn (say, turn 4) is likely to be pretty bad, with lots of Estates and Coppers and nothing else in the mix.  You're pretty likely to end up with $2 or $3 on the turn you don't buy KC, so it may only have one action to pair with on the next shuffle.

If there's something like a Lab on the table, I think I'd rather buy it with the $7 and trust that it will itself bootstrap me into getting KC, rather than get the KC first and end up with a $4 hand when I draw KC dead.

If the table is such that my eventual deck doesn't want a single Gold in it, and my optimal KC targets are cards that don't increase buying power (like, I'm hoping to set up KC/Saboteur), I might go for an early KC.

[WanderingWinder]

I'm struggling to understand why you'd open silver/2-cost on a board that has actions good enough to warrant considering buying KC

[Thisisnotasmile]

I think they are using "$2 action" to refer to what we would usually call a terminal silver, rather than an action card which costs $2.

[Fangz]

Yes, but getting back to the point of the thread, I think if you get a lucky 7 early (say open silver/$2 action and get a turn 3 hand with $7), I think you still buy the KC here, don't you?

I probably don't.  I mean, what's the $2 action?  There's a limited number of cards that can get you $7 on turn 3/4, and most of them are either unspectacular with KC or need supporting cards with it.  Smithy, for example, is great as long as you have an Action after playing KC/Smithy, but pretty bad otherwise.  Swindler and Bridge are exceptions, Pawn may be as well (though Pawn is a very rare $7 hand).

A 'dead' KC smithy isn't to be sniffed at. With your initial deck, that's a guaranteed gold. The only reason to not go KC in my opinion is if you are going for a big money focused deck.

[Superdad]

Yes of course this discussion only exists if you actually want a KC in your deck. If there's nothing good to KC, you obviously take gold with your $7. But I would posit that if you have a terminal silver action, you'd still take the KC here - provided you are going to get more KC later in the game, and there are other actions to take later to compliment the KC.

My interpretation of the question was that he was looking if it was better to get KC with low action count, or if he should get more actions first. I would always take the KC here, provided I was going for a KC deck, even if I had a decent chance of it being blank on the next shuffle. It's a lot easier to pick up lower-cost actions on subsequent turns than it is to pick up a quick KC. And while a blank KC stinks, it's not THAT bad, and if you get the chance to get an early KC'd action (like say turn 4 or 5), that has the potential to instantly win the game for you (pretty much).

For example, for the Swindler/Silver opening on a kingdom with Lab/KC. Buying a lab with $7 will help you draw your actions more, and could help you get a KC again. But I'd personally rather get the quick KC. If I miss the KC/Swindler on the next shuffle, no biggie, I can grab another swindler at the very least (I could get EEECC, but still...). However, if I hit a turn 4, 5 or 6 KC'd swindler, it puts my opponent in a really bad place. 

Picking up a Lab in that spot, I could definitely hit a bunch of $6's in the next turns, which isn't terrible, but I think I'd rather the KC here. Also, I think KC and any terminal silver is pretty solid, because all you need is a copper in the same hand and you get a 2nd KC.

Now I think that's a more interesting question. Suppose you do pick up the KC on turn 3 with $7 and a terminal silver action in your deck. If you hit $7 again, do you pick up a 2nd KC with only one other action in your deck or do you get another action, say the lab. I would pick up the lab on this $7, but I could be wrong there too?

 

[DStu]

I think that has been said before, but anyway, I would notdepend the choice of buying the KC on the probability that I draw it blank, but on the probability that I get to the important cards (including more KCs) in the next turn with it.

If (extreme case) I started Mining Village/Swindler and get $7 on turn 3 by trashing the MV, and the important cards are at $5, I would not take the KC yet. The first target in this case is to get $5 reliably to get the good cards, when you have them you automatically get to $7 to grap the Courts anyway. If you take the KC you will have a hard time to get to $5, if there's nothing you want to buy with $3/$4, what do you do with your turns? Take the Gold and with it get the more important cards.

If on the other hand I anyway only need cards for $3/$4, there is no point in taking the Gold, just take the KC and use the next crappy hands to get whatever you need down there.

[Fangz]

But if you have mining village, then you almost certainly have something you want to buy for $4. And if you have a swindler, a KC swindler can quite possibly win you the game at this point.

[DG]

I'd agree that the mining village and swindler isn't a helpful example. A coppersmith giving you 8$ to buy a king's court on turn 3 may be a better example, since you'd then be better buying some supporting cards (to manage your hands and deck) before getting the king's court.

I think the whole question of "how soon?" is dependent upon what you'd buy instead. If it's a treasure (gold) then you need to consider how extra treasures will sit in a deck where you want to combine action cards together. If the alternative is an action card you probably need to assess which will give better draws through to the next shuffle of the deck and make your best guess. As pointed out previously, some card combinations (like king's court on mountebank) are likely to be game winners if drawn early and are worth some risk.

Another consideration might be getting an extra buy. If your deck is strong and improving you might need to take a festival(say) then buy a king's court plus something else later. Buying the king's court first might leave you buying just a festival later, even if you have more coins to spend.

Getting the sequence of action card purchases correct can be difficult even when you know which action cards you eventually want in your deck. This is probably why nobody has given a straightforward answer to to original question.

[guided]

Getting the sequence of action card purchases correct can be difficult even when you know which action cards you eventually want in your deck.

Very true, even with things like basic draw engines where the drawing card is more expensive than the Village variant. Like, how many Torturers do you take with $5 before you give up and start balancing them out by overpaying for Walled Villages?

[Anon79]

Here's a good example where both of us go through the motions and pick up King's Court without thinking. I win because I pick up the woefully underrated Adventurer and get rid of the KC nice and early.

Actually, I think you won because your opponent firstly didn't have a game plan (with 5's he went Upgrade, then Contraband, Stash, Vault, no clear idea what he wanted), and secondly his play is sub-optimal (Turn 10 starting with Copper/Silver/Militia/Warehouse/Upgrade, surely he should play Upgrade first before Warehouse - he ended up not playing Upgrade, so it effectively misses a shuffle). Whereas you have an end-game plan.

Speaking of plans, Upgrading KC's into Provinces (as opposed to buying Provinces) is also a feasible strategy plan on this board, so I would still be picking up KC's over Golds on $7 if I already have some Remakes & Upgrades in my deck...