Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[rinkworks]

Do the revised cards need to satisfy the contest that they were originally designed for?

No.

[GendoIkari]

I don't know about you, but I'd go for the novelty "discard" option every single time.

Well of course. Just like I'd always trash a Fortress with my Chapel if I didn't have 4 other cards I want to trash.

[eHalcyon]

I don't know about you, but I'd go for the novelty "discard" option every single time.

Well of course. Just like I'd always trash a Fortress with my Chapel if I didn't have 4 other cards I want to trash.

Only if you had something else to chapel anyway, or if you can afford the extra action.

[Rush_Clasic]

Ghost town with "discard outside a clean up phase" (like tunnel) doesn't strike me as any more complicated than fortress. The secret chamber problem is the same as playing a Mercenary when you have one fortress in hand; you can't trash the fortress than trash it again. At any rate, "discard outside a clean up phase" is less ambiguous than "discard from your deck" - since cards that you reveal from your deck aren't in your deck, given that you have to "put them back".

At any rate, I hope you get it all figured out. It's an amazing concept, and this set needs another village.

Hunh. Dark Ages strikes again! If the precedent it there, I suppose I'm not that opposed.

[NoMoreFun]

King's Court+Tactician with a Ghost Town in hand would be a truly frightening combo, but maybe that's fine - it's not going to come up that often.

[rinkworks]

Here is the revised ballot for the runners-up round.  The top two finishers will be inducted into the set.  Voters are due Monday.

--

Voting Rules:

Each person may cast votes as follows:  For each Challenge, you may fill your ballot out in one of two ways:

(1) Award 3 points to one entry.  Award 1 point to any number of other entries.
(2) Award 2 points to each of two entries.  Award 1 point to any number of other entries.

Submit your votes via PM to me by Monday, October 22, 2012, 10am EDT in the following format:

Challenge 1

3 CardName
1 AnotherCardName
1 StillAnotherCardName
1 AnotherCardNameGoesHereToo

Challenge 2

2 CardName
2 AnotherCardName
1 StillAnotherCardName

Please use the above format!  One card per line, with the number of votes given before it, and no extra punctuation or anything.  This will make it easy for me to copy-and-paste your votes into the format my vote-counting script needs it to be in.

Do not submit votes for your own cards.  (If you do, my script will catch you anyway.)

By submitting vote(s) for a challenge, you will automatically earn 1 point for your entry in that challenge.  This is to incentivize contestants to submit votes.  (My script does this automatically, so don't worry that I'll forget to do this.)

As a voter, you may use whatever criteria you wish in determining what your votes will be.  Be as forgiving or particular as you like concerning conformance to standard Dominion terminology.   For all winning cards, there will be a chance to tweak the wording as a community, if necessary, before they are canonized.

--
World's Fair
$3 - Action
Trash this card.
Gain a card costing up to $6, placing it on top of your deck.
Each other player may gain a copy of the card you gained.


Heirloom
$5 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $1
Gain a Silver, placing it on top of your deck.
--
If this card is trashed in any way, reveal it and gain a Gold on top of your deck.


Watchmaker
$4 - Action
Reveal the top four cards of your deck. Put two into your hand and discard the others.


Diplomat
$4 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
Choose a card from your hand and put it on the bottom of the Diplomat deck. Reveal the top card of the Diplomat deck and return it to the supply. Each other player gains a copy of the revealed card.
--
Setup: Shuffle a Diplomat deck containing 1 Copper, 1 Estate, 1 Silver and 1 Curse. (From the supply.)


Street Performer
$3 - Action
+$2
--
At the start of Clean-up this turn, choose up to two cards you have in play. For each you would discard from play this turn, shuffle it into your deck.


Retirement Village
$3 - Action-Victory
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
--
1 VP


Broker
$4 - Action
+1 Action
+$1
Choose one:  Discard 2 cards and draw 1 card; OR draw up to 5 cards.


Emerald
$4 - Treasure
Reveal your hand. This is worth $1 per Victory card in your hand.
--
In games using this, when you buy a Victory card, you may gain an Emerald.


Caretaker
$5 - Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. The player to your left chooses to discard them or return them to the top of your deck.
+4 Cards


Recruiter
$5 - Action-Attack
Choose one: +1 Action and gain an Attack card from the supply; or all other players gain a Curse card.
--
If you have played 2 or more Attack cards this turn (counting this): +$1.


Town Fool
$4 - Action-Attack
+$2
All other players gain a Curse and choose to either trash a card from their hand or draw a card.


Ghost Town
$2 - Action-Reaction
+2 Actions
--
When you discard other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, put it in your hand.


Plaza
$3 - Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 3 cards costing $4 or less.
Put all revealed cards costing $4 or less into your hand and discard the other revealed cards.


Planchet
$2 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $1
--
When you would discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may set this aside from your hand instead.  If you do, +$2 and return it to the discard pile at the end of your turn.
--
(Rule clarifications: If you discard this during another player's turn (e.g., because of Militia), you get +$2 at the start of your next turn.)


Astrologer
$4 - Action-Attack
Trash two cards from your hand. If they are the same card, each other player gains a copy of that card. Otherwise, +$ equal to the difference in cost between the two.
--
When you gain this, each other player may trash a card from his hand.


Diviner
$3 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look at the top card of your deck. You may discard it or put it back.
--
When you would discard a card other than during your clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash that card instead.


Cobbler
$3 - Action
+3 Cards
+1 Action
Put two cards from your hand on top of your deck.


Archaeologist
$3 - Action
+$2
You may put a card from your discard pile on top of your deck.


Survivor's Village
$5 - Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
--
When you gain this, gain a Survivor's Village token.
--
At the start of any turn, you may return one Survivor's Village token before you play your first action. If you do, +1 Action.


Repair Shop
$5 - Action-Reaction
Gain a card costing up to $4.
--
When you gain a card you may discard this.  If you do, trash that card and gain a card costing up to $2 more.


Thanksgiving
$5 - Action
Trash this card.
Gain two cards costing up to a total of 7. Put the cards on your deck.


Zealot
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you have an even number of cards in play (including this), +1 Card.


Bribe
$4 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $2
--
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack; return Bribe to the supply and gain a Silver, placing it in your hand, and the attacking player may gain a Copper, placing it in his hand.


Bursar
$5 - Action
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Put one into your hand, discard the other card.
+1 Action
+$1


Flea Market
$2 - Action
+2 Actions
You may return a card from your hand to the supply. If you do, gain a card with the same cost, putting it in your hand.


Sorry Witch
$4 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
Each other player gains a Curse and draws a card.


Tithe
$4 - Action-Victory
+1 Buy
You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, +2 VP and gain a differently named Victory card costing up to the cost of the trashed card.
--
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Estates in your deck (rounded down).

[Rush_Clasic]

I forgot the word "this" between the words "discard" and "other" on Ghost Town. 

[One Armed Man]

Read from the bottom. I didn't read my old reviews of this cards, but I remember liking most of them. Now, the competition is harsher and we have holes to fill in the set.

World's Fair
$3 - Action
Trash this card.
Gain a card costing up to $6, placing it on top of your deck.
Each other player may gain a copy of the card you gained.

for the set:  I prefer the Thanksgiving card to this, but I prefer this to my entry in the non-attack interaction. fine.
overall: I don't forsee this being useful often enough. fine.

Heirloom
$5 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $1
Gain a Silver, placing it on top of your deck.
--
If this card is trashed in any way, reveal it and gain a Gold on top of your deck.

for the set: We have 2 5-cost treasures already. This needs a wording tweak to match with Dark Ages. It was cool that this came out before the "on trash" Dark Ages cards. fun.
overall: fun.

Watchmaker
$4 - Action
Reveal the top four cards of your deck. Put two into your hand and discard the others.

for the set:  Compared to the Gatherer we got, this seems at a comparable strength at the same cost. fine.
overall: This seems cool, but not so different than Smithy. fun.

Diplomat
$4 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
Choose a card from your hand and put it on the bottom of the Diplomat deck. Reveal the top card of the Diplomat deck and return it to the supply. Each other player gains a copy of the revealed card.
--
Setup: Shuffle a Diplomat deck containing 1 Copper, 1 Estate, 1 Silver and 1 Curse. (From the supply.)

for the set: Too silly and random. The balance seems fixed. fine.
overall: fine.

Street Performer
$3 - Action
+$2
--
At the start of Clean-up this turn, choose up to two cards you have in play. For each you would discard from play this turn, shuffle it into your deck.

for the set:  Too much shuffling. poor.
overall: It is a shame Scavenger came out. poor.

Retirement Village
$3 - Action-Victory
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
--
1 VP

for the set:  We need a village, but there were other ones I preferred. fine.
overall: I don't think +2 actions, +1 buy is sufficiently different than what great hall gives you. fine.

Broker
$4 - Action
+1 Action
+$1
Choose one:  Discard 2 cards and draw 1 card; OR draw up to 5 cards.

for the set:  We just added Archivist. poor.
overall: Could be interesting. fine.

Emerald
$4 - Treasure
Reveal your hand. This is worth $1 per Victory card in your hand.
--
In games using this, when you buy a Victory card, you may gain an Emerald.

for the set: you didn't make it cost $3. I am a little upset. fine.
overall: I think this is too weak. fine.

Caretaker
$5 - Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. The player to your left chooses to discard them or return them to the top of your deck.
+4 Cards

for the set:  I always liked this and found it to be fun, though it only seems slightly stronger than Envoy. fun
overall: It is partly a shame that Catacombs and Hunting Grounds came out. fine.

Recruiter
$5 - Action-Attack
Choose one: +1 Action and gain an Attack card from the supply; or all other players gain a Curse card.
--
If you have played 2 or more Attack cards this turn (counting this): +$1.

for the set:  This seems quite strong, since it can gain very strong 5 cost cards. I get that you would have to forgo getting those other cards initially. A 5 cost curser complements the 4 cost we have well. fun
overall: fun

Town Fool
$4 - Action-Attack
+$2
All other players gain a Curse and choose to either trash a card from their hand or draw a card.

for the set: I forgot this card existed. I made a card that gave 3 choices (these + gain a silver) for each opponent. As a slightly different curser, I like it. great
overall: great.

Ghost Town
$2 - Action-Reaction
+2 Actions
--
When you discard other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, put it in your hand.

for the set:  too many discard other than cleanup phase ideas are thrown around. This never excited me because it is too weak most of the time. poor
overall: poor.

Plaza
$3 - Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 3 cards costing $4 or less.
Put all revealed cards costing $4 or less into your hand and discard the other revealed cards.

for the set:  I always supported this as a low-cost deck helper, something that uses an engine of 4 cost cards to get provinces and duchies, which this card passes. great
overall: great

Planchet
$2 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $1
--
When you would discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may set this aside from your hand instead.  If you do, +$2 and return it to the discard pile at the end of your turn.
--
(Rule clarifications: If you discard this during another player's turn (e.g., because of Militia), you get +$2 at the start of your next turn.)

for the set:  too many discard other than cleanup phase ideas are thrown around. This is too similar to Crystal Ball. poor
overall: fine.

Astrologer
$4 - Action-Attack
Trash two cards from your hand. If they are the same card, each other player gains a copy of that card. Otherwise, +$ equal to the difference in cost between the two.
--
When you gain this, each other player may trash a card from his hand.

for the set: As an interactive card, it is cool, but the ability is too redundant with Amulet. poor
overall: fine.

Diviner
$3 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look at the top card of your deck. You may discard it or put it back.
--
When you would discard a card other than during your clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash that card instead.

for the set: too many discard other than cleanup phase ideas are thrown around. This one letting you trash things is quite powerful. Fine
overall: Fun

Cobbler
$3 - Action
+3 Cards
+1 Action
Put two cards from your hand on top of your deck.

for the set: This card sorts your current and next turn. fun.
overall: It fits in the set as well as it fits anywhere. fun.

Archaeologist
$3 - Action
+$2
You may put a card from your discard pile on top of your deck.

for the set: I don't like cards that rely on discard piles.
overall: It is a shame Scavenger came out. poor

Survivor's Village
$5 - Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
--
When you gain this, gain a Survivor's Village token.
--
At the start of any turn, you may return one Survivor's Village token before you play your first action. If you do, +1 Action.

for the set: We need more villages. This one is cool. great.
overall: It might be underpowered compared to Bazaar, but I think the flexibility will cause some non-traditional decks to be viable. great.

Repair Shop
$5 - Action-Reaction
Gain a card costing up to $4.
--
When you gain a card you may discard this.  If you do, trash that card and gain a card costing up to $2 more.

for the set: We have enough gainers and we already have a similar reaction. poor.
overall: fine.

Thanksgiving
$5 - Action
Trash this card.
Gain two cards costing up to a total of 7. Put the cards on your deck.

for the set: goes along with Carpenter. Getting a gold or 7 cost card is a great use for this. The name needs work. fun
overall: Getting a 5-2 split with this is strange. fun

Zealot
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you have an even number of cards in play (including this), +1 Card.

for the set: we have too many hand-size increasers. poor
overall: an interesting use of an unused mechanic. fun

Bribe
$4 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $2
--
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack; return Bribe to the supply and gain a Silver, placing it in your hand, and the attacking player may gain a Copper, placing it in his hand.

for the set: I don't like better silvers for $4. poor
overall: poor

Bursar
$5 - Action
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Put one into your hand, discard the other card.
+1 Action
+$1

for the set: redundant with our markets. fine
overall: great

Flea Market
$2 - Action
+2 Actions
You may return a card from your hand to the supply. If you do, gain a card with the same cost, putting it in your hand.

for the set: We need another village. I like same cost switching cards, considering my set has one. I like that it turns all your Estates into weak villages or better. great
overall: fun

Sorry Witch
$4 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
Each other player gains a Curse and draws a card.

for the set: too redundant with and weaker than Soothsayer. poor
overall: essentially Cursing +1card, and the Council room effect. Combined, they help the game not become a slog. fun

Tithe
$4 - Action-Victory
+1 Buy
You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, +2 VP and gain a differently named Victory card costing up to the cost of the trashed card.
--
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Estates in your deck (rounded down).

for the set: Certainly interesting and a good use for our alternate Victory cards that is only partially "make your deck gigantic". fun
overall: fun

[rinkworks]

Bribe
$4 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $2
--
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack; return Bribe to the supply and gain a Silver, placing it in your hand, and the attacking player may gain a Copper, placing it in his hand.

for the set: I don't like better silvers for $4. poor
overall: poor

While the original card fit into this category, this revision is no longer a "better Silver."  I mean, it might be generally superior to Silver (which is fine), but it's no strictly superior to Silver.  The Donald quote that cemented this rule of thumb was only talking about $4 Silvers "with no penalty."  Here, a possible opponent benefit requires you to think a little before picking this up in preference to Silver.

[popsofctown]

Bribe
$4 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $2
--
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack; return Bribe to the supply and gain a Silver, placing it in your hand, and the attacking player may gain a Copper, placing it in his hand.

for the set: I don't like better silvers for $4. poor
overall: poor

While the original card fit into this category, this revision is no longer a "better Silver."  I mean, it might be generally superior to Silver (which is fine), but it's no strictly superior to Silver.  The Donald quote that cemented this rule of thumb was only talking about $4 Silvers "with no penalty."  Here, a possible opponent benefit requires you to think a little before picking this up in preference to Silver.

What?  No.  Pick it up instead of Silver all the time, never use the reaction.  You now have a Silver that works better for TFB.  Strictly better.

[DWetzel]

Bribe
$4 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $2
--
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack; return Bribe to the supply and gain a Silver, placing it in your hand, and the attacking player may gain a Copper, placing it in his hand.

for the set: I don't like better silvers for $4. poor
overall: poor

While the original card fit into this category, this revision is no longer a "better Silver."  I mean, it might be generally superior to Silver (which is fine), but it's no strictly superior to Silver.  The Donald quote that cemented this rule of thumb was only talking about $4 Silvers "with no penalty."  Here, a possible opponent benefit requires you to think a little before picking this up in preference to Silver.

What?  No.  Pick it up instead of Silver all the time, never use the reaction.  You now have a Silver that works better for TFB.  Strictly better.

At the risk of overly defending my card, that's a pretty weird nit to pick.  It's like saying

Du$hy
$6 - Victory
Worth 3 VP

Is "strictly better than Duchy" because you can trash it for more, and therefore shouldn't exist.


To pick the counter-nit, there are some times (e.g. Feodum exists) you'd rather have Silver.

[rinkworks]

Bribe
$4 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $2
--
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack; return Bribe to the supply and gain a Silver, placing it in your hand, and the attacking player may gain a Copper, placing it in his hand.

for the set: I don't like better silvers for $4. poor
overall: poor

While the original card fit into this category, this revision is no longer a "better Silver."  I mean, it might be generally superior to Silver (which is fine), but it's no strictly superior to Silver.  The Donald quote that cemented this rule of thumb was only talking about $4 Silvers "with no penalty."  Here, a possible opponent benefit requires you to think a little before picking this up in preference to Silver.

What?  No.  Pick it up instead of Silver all the time, never use the reaction.  You now have a Silver that works better for TFB.  Strictly better.

That is...an incredible...reach.  By that logic, we can make every card better just by making it more expensive.  Like Hamlet at $2?  You'll LOVE it at $6!

Come on.  It's not strictly better.  It costs more.  When weighing one card against another, you either don't consider the price at all (in which case you might say "strictly better effect"), or you have to weigh the pros AND cons of the price.  You can't say "Well, with TFB, sometimes a higher cost is better, so it's strictly better!", ignoring the fact that, you know what, sometimes a card having a higher cost means you can't buy it this turn, or can't buy as many copies, etc.

I mean, if you're still concerned about having a $4 card that you can use as a Silver (but nothing better than a Silver, if you want to circumvent its penalty), that's a reasonable and defensible position.  But it's not because the card is strictly better (it isn't), and not because of TFB (which is only a factor in a minority of kingdoms -- as opposed to the proper $4 Silver principle, which holds for all kingdoms).

This is just not the situation Donald was talking about.  The exact quote:  "I can't make a treasure that costs $4, makes $2, and has a bonus but no penalty."

If you don't use the Reaction, Bribe is a Treasure that costs $4, makes $2, has no penalty, but has no bonus either.  Costing an extra $1 is not a bonus.

And if you do use the Reaction, it does have a penalty.  So you get both or neither, but never the configuration that Donald was calling problematic.

[One Armed Man]

Bribe is 4, has a bonus and there is no point in calling the other part a "penalty" because you don't have to use it. Consider:
Fake:
Treasure
$4
Worth $2.
When you play this, you can trash it. If you do, gain a Gold and a Curse.
You would buy this over Silver (unless some other card name-drops silver), even if the bonus also has a penalty you get if you optionally choose to use the bonus.

[DWetzel]

But the bonus (the one-shot defense) also has a penalty (the opponent can optionally do something useful). 

It's literally never "better than Silver".  It's either literally exactly Silver, or briefly "better than Silver, but with a potential drawback".

[DWetzel]

Bribe is 4, has a bonus and there is no point in calling the other part a "penalty" because you don't have to use it. Consider:
Fake:
Treasure
$4
Worth $2.
When you play this, you can trash it. If you do, gain a Gold and a Curse.
You would buy this over Silver (unless some other card name-drops silver), even if the bonus also has a penalty you get if you optionally choose to use the bonus.

And the underlined matters, doesn't it?

Is a $6 3 VP card called More Expensive Duchy "strictly better than Duchy" (and therefore shouldn't exist)?


I mean, hate on the card because you don't think the reaction is useful, or whatever, but this "Donald said something that sort of tangentially applies, therefore", without actually reading the card and thinking, is really disappointing.

[AJD]

But the bonus (the one-shot defense) also has a penalty (the opponent can optionally do something useful). 

It's literally never "better than Silver".  It's either literally exactly Silver, or briefly "better than Silver, but with a potential drawback".

No, it's always better than Silver, since you always have a choice whether to use its reaction or not. So if using the reaction would be bad for you at any given time, you don't use the reaction to you and it's indistinguishable from Silver; if using the reaction would benefit you, you use it and get a benefit you wouldn't have had if you'd bought Silver. So the card has, as Rinkworks put it, a strictly better effect than Silver; and the relevant comment from Donald is (essentially) that it's not a good idea to price a card that has a strictly better effect than silver at $4.

I think this might be an exception to that general principle, since the strictly-better-effect is both a one-shot and a Reaction that depends on the presence of Attacks. But actually I don't think it's a good idea in general to have a Reaction card (especially one that reacts to Attacks) whose top half is indistinguishable from an existing card, especially a basic card—note that there's no card that's just "+2 cards" or "+$3, discard 2" or whatever.

[Tables]

There's a reason Donald said it.

Think about it. In many games, you'd buy Silver with $4, right? Imagine you're in one of those games, and it also includes Bribe. Do you now consider Silver? What does the game need for you to still consider Silver? How likely is it that those thing(s) exist?

The answer is of course, rarely. You just mindlessly pick Bribe up, and you can treat it as a Silver. Maybe you'll use the benefit, maybe not, but ultimately, putting Bribe into your deck wasn't a strategic choice, you just wanted Silver and this was better.

Imagine for comparison, you want something that gives you extra money and extra buys, and Festival and Woodcutter are both on the board. You have $5. Will you ever consider Woodcutter? Only in rare cases, I'd say. Of course, this is less of an issue - $5 to $3 is a much bigger gap, AND the more expensive card isn't competing against something in every game!

Now that aside, I feel like I want to defend my card:

Street Performer
$3 - Action
+$2
--
At the start of Clean-up this turn, choose up to two cards you have in play. For each you would discard from play this turn, shuffle it into your deck.

for the set:  Too much shuffling. poor.
overall: It is a shame Scavenger came out. poor.

I... don't even understand the second criticism, given the card is nothing like Scavenger. Scavenger gets your new cards into play more quickly. This saves your good old cards. It's pretty much the opposite. As for the second criticism, it's one more time shuffling each time you play the card. Not all that much really, and shuffling really isn't that much of a penalty (ultimately, you need to shuffle two cards in, that's not hard). And that's if you even want to save anything (sometimes, you'll get a dud hand with it and don't want to save the SP either). That's... no worse than Scavenger or Chancellor, and they're both very fun cards to play. This is fun too, having played with it myself various times.

[DWetzel]

There's a reason Donald said it.

Think about it. In many games, you'd buy Silver with $4, right? Imagine you're in one of those games, and it also includes Bribe. Do you now consider Silver? What does the game need for you to still consider Silver? How likely is it that those thing(s) exist?

The answer is of course, rarely. You just mindlessly pick Bribe up, and you can treat it as a Silver. Maybe you'll use the benefit, maybe not, but ultimately, putting Bribe into your deck wasn't a strategic choice, you just wanted Silver and this was better.

And there's attacks on the board, of course, otherwise I wouldn't care at all which I bought (aside from also pretty unlikely upgrade shenanigans that I'd counter by saying "what if my opponent player two Highways and a Saboteur" or something). 

Yes, in that narrow scenario where attacks exist but I'd still rather have treasure for exactly $4 than whatever attack is present, then I have the option of doing something, once, which probably makes it better than being Silver -- but note I have the chance to screw it up in that maybe I should have used it on a different attack, or not used it all, rather than giving my opponent the option of an extra $1 this turn).

[One Armed Man]

Now that aside, I feel like I want to defend my card:

Street Performer
$3 - Action
+$2
--
At the start of Clean-up this turn, choose up to two cards you have in play. For each you would discard from play this turn, shuffle it into your deck.

for the set:  Too much shuffling. poor.
overall: It is a shame Scavenger came out. poor.

I... don't even understand the second criticism, given the card is nothing like Scavenger. Scavenger gets your new cards into play more quickly. This saves your good old cards. It's pretty much the opposite. As for the second criticism, it's one more time shuffling each time you play the card. Not all that much really, and shuffling really isn't that much of a penalty (ultimately, you need to shuffle two cards in, that's not hard). And that's if you even want to save anything (sometimes, you'll get a dud hand with it and don't want to save the SP either). That's... no worse than Scavenger or Chancellor, and they're both very fun cards to play. This is fun too, having played with it myself various times.

I am being harsher this time than originally. Here is what I said originally: Shuffling doesn't make me happy usually. From a balance prospective I would rather it say shuffle than bottom of the deck. This card is a terminal and shuffles at the end of the turn, so I am okay with thinking of it as ann Inn or something. Seems okay. (I said seems okay to tell myself later what to usually give 1 vote to). I like the card, I was doing a quick read through, I can give it another shot

Street Performer
for the set:  We already have a terminal silver with Carpenter, but this is quite different. fine.
overall: This does a "keep things around" type of effect. With village support, a set of these can set up something like a Chancellor-Stash deck, which is interesting. This effect seems strong for $3, since returning a Gold to your deck seems to be worth about $1 the current turn (like how Merchant Ship giving $2 next turn is about as good as $1.5 now). It is a shame Scavenger came out. Scavenger is another terminal silver that increases the likelihood that you can use a chosen card something like every other turn. I still don't like shuffling this often, which is a point against this and Scavenger. fine

[eHalcyon]

Disclaimer: none of these cards is mine.


I am not referencing earlier posts on these cards.  It is possible that my opinions will have changed in the intervening time for any number of reasons:

- the card has been modified, for better or worse
- the card has a different "feel" when not compared against all the competition from its original theme
- new additions to the overall set change the way this card would fit in
- I'm just plain inconsistent

Looking at the set list, I think we need more villages.  Although we have three Victory cards, I think it might be OK to add another.  I'm a little more reserved about adding a fourth alt treasure.  I no longer want to see +Buy (so many ties!) and I would be hesitant about more non-terminal draw, more gainers, or more cost-reducers.  This sounds pretty strict but I know I'll end up more relaxed when I actually vote.

Oh, and the price point that I think the set needs most is $3.

World's Fair
$3 - Action
Trash this card.
Gain a card costing up to $6, placing it on top of your deck.
Each other player may gain a copy of the card you gained.

I like it.  Although it is another gainer, it does so in an interesting way.  The interaction is fun.  And it is at the $3 price point!

Heirloom
$5 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $1
Gain a Silver, placing it on top of your deck.
--
If this card is trashed in any way, reveal it and gain a Gold on top of your deck.

If we were to add a fourth alt treasure, this would be interesting.  We already have Astrolabe, Crystal Ball and Amulet which are alt Copper, Silver and Gold respectively. Heirloom is interesting for being an alt Copper that PRODUCES Silver and CAN produce Gold.  I also think the card name fits in well with the existing alt treasures.

Watchmaker
$4 - Action
Reveal the top four cards of your deck. Put two into your hand and discard the others.

This is a better version of Oracle's drawing.  I think it is a little too similar to Gatherer.  But then again... not really?  Hm.

Diplomat
$4 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
Choose a card from your hand and put it on the bottom of the Diplomat deck. Reveal the top card of the Diplomat deck and return it to the supply. Each other player gains a copy of the revealed card.
--
Setup: Shuffle a Diplomat deck containing 1 Copper, 1 Estate, 1 Silver and 1 Curse. (From the supply.)

This is a very interesting attack, but I fear it may be too swingy with that Silver in the deck.

Street Performer
$3 - Action
+$2
--
At the start of Clean-up this turn, choose up to two cards you have in play. For each you would discard from play this turn, shuffle it into your deck.

I like this as a Scheme variant.  Since the text is under a line, is it meant to be something that can't be multiplied with KC/TR/Proc?

If it CAN be multiplied, it is possible to set up a "Golden Deck".  Suppose you get it to KC-KC-SP-SP-Workshop and 0 cards in draw pile.  You produce $18 per turn with 4 Buys total, and then SP allows you to shuffle all 5 cards back to draw them again.  Double province every turn.

But that is NOT easy to set up, and would be a cool thing to pull off.

Retirement Village
$3 - Action-Victory
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
--
1 VP

I think this is perfectly fine, but a little boring.

Broker
$4 - Action
+1 Action
+$1
Choose one:  Discard 2 cards and draw 1 card; OR draw up to 5 cards.

Too similar to Archivist, which is now in the set.

Emerald
$4 - Treasure
Reveal your hand. This is worth $1 per Victory card in your hand.
--
In games using this, when you buy a Victory card, you may gain an Emerald.

This would be a nice addition to the set because it is an alt treasure that works better when you have lots of VP, e.g. in alt VP games.  It fits the kind of mini-theme we have going with all the alt treasures and VP already in the set.

Caretaker
$5 - Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. The player to your left chooses to discard them or return them to the top of your deck.
+4 Cards

This is similar to Oracle and Catacombs except the chooser is an opponent instead of you, making your big draw probably a little worse than average.  I think it is interesting.

Not something to judge, but I don't like the card name.

Recruiter
$5 - Action-Attack
Choose one: +1 Action and gain an Attack card from the supply; or all other players gain a Curse card.
--
If you have played 2 or more Attack cards this turn (counting this): +$1.

It actually feels a little too weak to me.  Although it is non-terminal, it does not draw.  The first copy does not provide any benefit, and you probably don't want to load up on a bunch of these because the potential benefit is still only +$1.  Not much at all.  It can be useful for gaining attacks, but at $5 this is really only good with Goons.  With the other attacks, why not just buy them to begin with?

I think this might be more compelling if it were +2 Actions instead.  That way, there is actually a decent reason for wanting multiples of these.

Town Fool
$4 - Action-Attack
+$2
All other players gain a Curse and choose to either trash a card from their hand or draw a card.

Cheap curser with benefit that provides a HUGE benefit to opponents.  Seems fine.

Ghost Town
$2 - Action-Reaction
+2 Actions
--
When you discard other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, put it in your hand.

Missing a bit of wording in the reaction there.

I think this is fine.  It gets bonus points for being a Village; I think we need one more in the set.

Plaza
$3 - Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 3 cards costing $4 or less.
Put all revealed cards costing $4 or less into your hand and discard the other revealed cards.

IIRC this was one of my favourites in the terminal draw contest.  I still like it.

Planchet
$2 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $1
--
When you would discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may set this aside from your hand instead.  If you do, +$2 and return it to the discard pile at the end of your turn.
--
(Rule clarifications: If you discard this during another player's turn (e.g., because of Militia), you get +$2 at the start of your next turn.)

Of course I like it, but we already have Crystal Ball.

Astrologer
$4 - Action-Attack
Trash two cards from your hand. If they are the same card, each other player gains a copy of that card. Otherwise, +$ equal to the difference in cost between the two.
--
When you gain this, each other player may trash a card from his hand.

This card has a weird niche.  I think the best comparison are Remake and Salvager.  Remake and Astrologer both trash two cards.  Remake can turn Estates into Silver.  Astrologer, however, can trash Estate+Copper for $2 -- this alone is not worth as much as a Silver ($3 value) but it would be added to whatever other money you have that turn, which is nice.  This ability to generate money also puts it in league with Salvager.  It is a faster trasher than Salvager, but it is also worse at making money.  Salvager can trash a Province for $8.  Astrologer can't do it unless you also have a Copper or Curse to trash, and in that case you end up $1 shorter than you would have with Salvager.  And of course, you don't have +Buy on Astrologer.

I think it would work.  I have no idea how it would play though.  I imagine it would be more for early game trashing-with-small-benefit and end up usually useless late game.  So more Remake than Salvager after all.

Diviner
$3 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look at the top card of your deck. You may discard it or put it back.
--
When you would discard a card other than during your clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash that card instead.

Makes an obvious combo with Crystal Ball.  Would also combo with Ghost Town if it won, and a few other cards.  Otherwise it is just minor filtering.  But it can also combo with itself to do some non-terminal trashing.

I like it.  $3 price point is a plus too.

Cobbler
$3 - Action
+3 Cards
+1 Action
Put two cards from your hand on top of your deck.

I don't think the set needs more non-terminal draw.  Also, putting 2 back feels like it would be slow to play.

Archaeologist
$3 - Action
+$2
You may put a card from your discard pile on top of your deck.

Too similar to Scavenger, I think!

Survivor's Village
$5 - Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
--
When you gain this, gain a Survivor's Village token.
--
At the start of any turn, you may return one Survivor's Village token before you play your first action. If you do, +1 Action.

Seems just fine to me.  The set needs another Village.

Repair Shop
$5 - Action-Reaction
Gain a card costing up to $4.
--
When you gain a card you may discard this.  If you do, trash that card and gain a card costing up to $2 more.

I think the set has enough gainers.

Thanksgiving
$5 - Action
Trash this card.
Gain two cards costing up to a total of 7. Put the cards on your deck.

I'm not a big fan of this, but I'm not sure why.  I just don't think I'd ever buy such an expensive one-shot.

Zealot
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you have an even number of cards in play (including this), +1 Card.

I did quite like this in the non-terminal draw contest (or whatever contest it was in).  But the set has other needs.

Bribe
$4 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $2
--
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack; return Bribe to the supply and gain a Silver, placing it in your hand, and the attacking player may gain a Copper, placing it in his hand.

There is already some discussion on whether this still falls into that bad area of $4 Silver+.  I think it does, but the new Copper clause does push it more into the grey.

Bursar
$5 - Action
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Put one into your hand, discard the other card.
+1 Action
+$1

Just a little too boring for my taste.

Flea Market
$2 - Action
+2 Actions
You may return a card from your hand to the supply. If you do, gain a card with the same cost, putting it in your hand.

Seems fine to me.  Set needs a village, and the same-price-switch concept is always interesting.  I think this should work fine.  There is a bit of worry about cards that have on-gain clauses, but after a quick look through I don't think there is anything broken.  Rather, they just seem like fun combos.

Sorry Witch
$4 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
Each other player gains a Curse and draws a card.

Similar to Town Fool.  Cards instead of money is usually worse in a junked deck, but the benefit to opponents is weaker as well.  This should be fine.

Tithe
$4 - Action-Victory
+1 Buy
You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, +2 VP and gain a differently named Victory card costing up to the cost of the trashed card.
--
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Estates in your deck (rounded down).

I think it is OK, but it is not among my favourite submissions here.

[rinkworks]

At last, the results of the Second Chance challenge are in, and we have two more cards to round out the community set.  They are...(drum roll)....


#1 - Recruiter by yuma with 12 points (Recruiter)
$5 - Action-Attack
Choose one: +1 Action and gain an Attack card from the supply; or all other players gain a Curse card.
--
If you have played 2 or more Attack cards this turn (counting this): +$1.

#2 - Thanksgiving by Tdog with 8 points (Thanksgiving)
$5 - Action
Trash this card.
Gain two cards costing up to a total of 7. Put the cards on your deck.



The set gets another Attack card and another one shot.  Recruiter is a card that can accrue copies of itself, or of other attack cards, and ramp up a violent game quickly.  On its own, it's a Cursing attack that, unlike most cursing attacks, can probably be passed over on many boards.  But if another Attack card is present (including a stronger curser), this card becomes more powerful, with a greater number of potentially lucrative interactions possible.

With Thanksgiving, you can slingshot your way up to an early $6 or $7 card at the expense of a $5 buy that might have been something else instead.  It can also rescue you from a 5/2 start on a board where 4/3 is clearly dominant.  Since the cards go on top of your deck, it doesn't suffer the drawback of most gainers, which is that by the time you get the gainer, play the gainer, gain a card, and see that gained card in your hand, at least two shuffles have gone by.

The rest of the ballot:


#3 (tie) - Ghost Town by Rush Clasic with 7 points (Ghost Town)
$2 - Action-Reaction
+2 Actions
--
When you discard other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, put it in your hand.

#3 (tie) - Emerald by Robz888 with 7 points (Emerald)
$4 - Treasure
Reveal your hand. This is worth $1 per Victory card in your hand.
--
In games using this, when you buy a Victory card, you may gain an Emerald.

#3 (tie) - Astrologer by A Drowned Kernel with 7 points (Astrologer)
$4 - Action-Attack
Trash two cards from your hand. If they are the same card, each other player gains a copy of that card. Otherwise, +$ equal to the difference in cost between the two.
--
When you gain this, each other player may trash a card from his hand.

#6 - Flea Market by tyr10n with 6 points (Flea Market)
$2 - Action
+2 Actions
You may return a card from your hand to the supply. If you do, gain a card with the same cost, putting it in your hand.

#7 - Diviner by PurplePotato with 5 points (Diviner)
$3 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look at the top card of your deck. You may discard it or put it back.
--
When you would discard a card other than during your clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash that card instead.

#8 - Survivor's Village by ChocophileBenj with 4 points (Survivor's Village)
$5 - Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
--
When you gain this, gain a Survivor's Village token.
--
At the start of any turn, you may return one Survivor's Village token before you play your first action. If you do, +1 Action.

#9 (tie) - Zealot by Sakako with 3 points (Zealot)
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you have an even number of cards in play (including this), +1 Card.

#9 (tie) - Heirloom by andwilk with 3 points (Heirloom)
$5 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $1
Gain a Silver, placing it on top of your deck.
--
If this card is trashed in any way, reveal it and gain a Gold on top of your deck.

#9 (tie) - Cobbler by Tables with 3 points (Cobbler)
$3 - Action
+3 Cards
+1 Action
Put two cards from your hand on top of your deck.

#9 (tie) - Bursar by Qvist with 3 points (Bursar)
$5 - Action
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Put one into your hand, discard the other card.
+1 Action
+$1

#9 (tie) - Archaeologist by Green Opal with 3 points (Archaeologist)
$3 - Action
+$2
You may put a card from your discard pile on top of your deck.

#14 (tie) - World's Fair by Mecherath with 2 points (World's Fair)
$3 - Action
Trash this card.
Gain a card costing up to $6, placing it on top of your deck.
Each other player may gain a copy of the card you gained.

#14 (tie) - Town Fool by andwilk with 2 points (Town Fool)
$4 - Action-Attack
+$2
All other players gain a Curse and choose to either trash a card from their hand or draw a card.

#14 (tie) - Retirement Village by Michaelf7777777 with 2 points (Retirement Village)
$3 - Action-Victory
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
--
1 VP

#14 (tie) - Plaza by Celestial Chameleon with 2 points (Plaza)
$3 - Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 3 cards costing $4 or less.
Put all revealed cards costing $4 or less into your hand and discard the other revealed cards.

#18 (tie) - Watchmaker by A Drowned Kernel with 1 point (Watchmaker)
$4 - Action
Reveal the top four cards of your deck. Put two into your hand and discard the others.

#18 (tie) - Tithe by Fragasnap with 1 point (Tithe)
$4 - Action-Victory
+1 Buy
You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, +2 VP and gain a differently named Victory card costing up to the cost of the trashed card.
--
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Estates in your deck (rounded down).

#18 (tie) - Street Performer by Tables with 1 point (Street Performer)
$3 - Action
+$2
--
At the start of Clean-up this turn, choose up to two cards you have in play. For each you would discard from play this turn, shuffle it into your deck.

#18 (tie) - Sorry Witch by Titandrake with 1 point (Sorry Witch)
$4 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
Each other player gains a Curse and draws a card.

#18 (tie) - Repair Shop by Mecherath with 1 point (Repair Shop)
$5 - Action-Reaction
Gain a card costing up to $4.
--
When you gain a card you may discard this.  If you do, trash that card and gain a card costing up to $2 more.

#18 (tie) - Planchet by Qvist with 1 point (Planchet)
$2 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $1
--
When you would discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may set this aside from your hand instead.  If you do, +$2 and return it to the discard pile at the end of your turn.
--
(Rule clarifications: If you discard this during another player's turn (e.g., because of Militia), you get +$2 at the start of your next turn.)

#18 (tie) - Diplomat by gman314 with 1 point (Diplomat)
$4 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
Choose a card from your hand and put it on the bottom of the Diplomat deck. Reveal the top card of the Diplomat deck and return it to the supply. Each other player gains a copy of the revealed card.
--
Setup: Shuffle a Diplomat deck containing 1 Copper, 1 Estate, 1 Silver and 1 Curse. (From the supply.)

#18 (tie) - Bribe by DWetzel with 1 point (Bribe)
$4 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $2
--
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack; return Bribe to the supply and gain a Silver, placing it in your hand, and the attacking player may gain a Copper, placing it in his hand.

#26 (tie) - Caretaker by jonts26 with 0 points (Caretaker)
$5 - Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. The player to your left chooses to discard them or return them to the top of your deck.
+4 Cards

#26 (tie) - Broker by nopawnsintended with 0 points (Broker)
$4 - Action
+1 Action
+$1
Choose one:  Discard 2 cards and draw 1 card; OR draw up to 5 cards.

[Robz888]

Alas, I really wanted to win, but congrats to Yuma. I voted for his card, I really liked it!

[Tables]

So, no cards into the set for me. That's a shame (for me, at least). I have to admit, I didn't like Recruiter, it seems like it's going to be inheritly very swingy depending on what attacks are in the kingdom. I did like Emerald and gave that 3 points, I still think it has potential to be very fun.

I do like Thanksgiving though, it seems a bit weak but an overall fun card (I don't think it needs to be a one-shot), so good to see that get in as well (it was top two right?)

[Tdog]

Yeah! Second best of the second bests ! But, thanks to rinkworks to all of his efforts, not bad for a card I spent about 3 minutes on.
Edit: wait, do top two get in? It says so in the first post but isn't made clear in the results.

[yuma]

#1 - Recruiter by yuma with 12 points (Recruiter)
$5 - Action-Attack
Choose one: +1 Action and gain an Attack card from the supply; or all other players gain a Curse card.
--
If you have played 2 or more Attack cards this turn (counting this): +$1.


The set gets another Attack card, this one a card that can accrue copies of itself, or of other attack cards, and ramp up a violent game quickly.  On its own, it's a Cursing attack that, unlike most cursing attacks, can probably be passed over on many boards.  But if another Attack card is present (including a stronger curser), this card becomes more powerful, with a greater number of potentially lucrative interactions possible.

Happy to see my card as the winning card. There were a lot of good cards in this mix--obviously!

I am going to try and playtest this with the wife in the next little bit and see what happens with it. I love Attack cards, especially how they completely change the dynamic of the game, and wanted to try to create a card that encouraged obtaining attack cards. I do think there will be some interesting decisions pertaining to how many Recruiters you get before moving onto other attack cards? Do you get this first or do you get a Mountebank or a Witch first?