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Author Topic: What would make Scout better?  (Read 41253 times)

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SirPeebles

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #100 on: October 13, 2012, 12:14:07 pm »
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I agree on Wharf.  What's up with all the love?  I buy as many as I can, but they just keep colliding.  And even when I do draw all 7 Coppers, what am I supposed to do?  I guess Donald's thought is that I'll use the spare buy to pick up both a Duchy and an Estate, which is what I usually do.  But man, you'd think he'd have the foresight to give it a +$1 so I could afford a damn Province.
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Cuzz

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #101 on: October 13, 2012, 02:14:57 pm »
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Scheming Chancellor Tactician Bloke
$7 action
Discard your deck.
During cleanup choose up to five cards you played this turn, put them on your deck.

Cards with things like "discard your deck" just become stupidly powerful with Tunnel. Not that this card isn't crazy powerful anyway.
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Grujah

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #102 on: October 13, 2012, 02:39:44 pm »
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Or have Counting House choose between all the Coppers in your draw deck or all the Coppers in your discard, but not both.

Ooo... neat!
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RD

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #103 on: October 13, 2012, 02:46:32 pm »
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Scheming Chancellor Tactician Bloke
$7 action
Discard your deck.
During cleanup choose up to five cards you played this turn, put them on your deck.

Cards with things like "discard your deck" just become stupidly powerful with Tunnel. Not that this card isn't crazy powerful anyway.

I assume he meant to use the Chancellor wording, which eliminates the ability to trigger Tunnel. But it doesn't much matter; I think it was just intended as an example, not a serious card suggestion?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 02:47:47 pm by RD »
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popsofctown

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2012, 04:01:48 pm »
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I really like the suggestion of adding 1VP to Scout.  That seems like a really fun card.
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Dsell

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2013, 12:32:34 pm »
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I'm resurrecting this topic because I think I'd like to give Scout a buff in my casual play and I'd love to find some sort of consensus about what makes sense. I don't think it needs to be errata'd or anything but I'd like to give it more utility/uniqueness when I'm playing with friends. The ideas I like best so far are:

I really like the suggestion of adding 1VP to Scout.  That seems like a really fun card.

Self-synergistic and worth a point. Ironworks-Scout could potentially be a thing. I don't think this is too strong.

I think a +1 Card would make all the difference.  This would put it on par with Apothecary, which is only slightly more expensive with an opportunity cost, which is fine, because in most cases Coppers will be much more valuable to you than Estates.

I think making it a cantrip is solid. Feels a lot like Cartographer but I don't own Hinterlands yet so no biggie.

Finally, I think maybe this was suggested somewhere but I don't want to find the quote, how about giving it +1 Card after the re-ordering? This is quite a LOT stronger than just making it a cantrip, but it's also a pretty unique effect. It's like a slightly stronger Sage, which seems reasonable at $4. I don't think it's too strong but I bet it'd be at least upper half of $4 cards.
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LastFootnote

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2013, 12:52:47 pm »
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Giving it +1 Card would make it a solid $5 card. I'm guessing that the 1 VP idea would also be too powerful.

Once again, I strongly suggest giving it +$1.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2013, 01:03:17 pm »
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I'd suggest a duchess like effect, "every time you buy an estate, you may gain a scout."
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Dsell

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2013, 01:06:10 pm »
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Giving it +1 Card would make it a solid $5 card. I'm guessing that the 1 VP idea would also be too powerful.

Once again, I strongly suggest giving it +$1.

+1 Card is too much? Huh, it still seems quite a bit worse than Cartographer except in Intrigue-heavy games or games where you want a large handsize. I could see +1 Card after everything being a $5 card. But I am not gonna change the cost in a casual game, that's too much to think about. +$1 probably works, but it feels really inelegant. :-\
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LastFootnote

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #109 on: June 12, 2013, 01:07:30 pm »
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Giving it +1 Card would make it a solid $5 card. I'm guessing that the 1 VP idea would also be too powerful.

Once again, I strongly suggest giving it +$1.

+1 Card is too much? Huh, it still seems quite a bit worse than Cartographer except in Intrigue-heavy games or games where you want a large handsize. I could see +1 Card after everything being a $5 card. But I am not gonna change the cost in a casual game, that's too much to think about. +$1 probably works, but it feels really inelegant. :-\

Inelegant? How? It's like a Peddler that only draws Victory cards, but could draw multiple Victory cards.

"Games where you want a large handsize" are the norm, I think. With any sifter or trash-for-benefit, you want that large handsize.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 01:08:38 pm by LastFootnote »
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Dsell

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #110 on: June 12, 2013, 01:18:18 pm »
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Giving it +1 Card would make it a solid $5 card. I'm guessing that the 1 VP idea would also be too powerful.

Once again, I strongly suggest giving it +$1.

+1 Card is too much? Huh, it still seems quite a bit worse than Cartographer except in Intrigue-heavy games or games where you want a large handsize. I could see +1 Card after everything being a $5 card. But I am not gonna change the cost in a casual game, that's too much to think about. +$1 probably works, but it feels really inelegant. :-\

Inelegant? How? It's like a Peddler that only draws Victory cards, but could draw multiple Victory cards.

"Games where you want a large handsize" are the norm, I think. With any sifter or trash-for-benefit, you want that large handsize.

When you put it that way, it sounds better. I guess I was just thinking that the +$1 came from nowhere and felt like a tack-on. The other solutions help it self-synergize or give it a unique-ish ability. But I am hoping for balance here. What makes you think that making it worth 1 VP is too strong? An Estate-with-a-bonus. It's like a better great hall that sometimes isn't.
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LastFootnote

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #111 on: June 12, 2013, 01:23:31 pm »
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What makes you think that making it worth 1 VP is too strong? An Estate-with-a-bonus. It's like a better great hall that sometimes isn't.

Well, perhaps I'm off base. It's hard to say how that would play. I think it would self-synergize a little too well. It also makes Great Hall less unique, and it's already a pretty marginal card. Why play Scount/Great Hall when you can play Scout/Scout?

EDIT: Well, OK, Great Hall can draw non-Victory cards, which is pretty key. Still, they'd be awfully similar.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 01:31:11 pm by LastFootnote »
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mail-mi

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #112 on: June 12, 2013, 01:24:24 pm »
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Make it terminal
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brokoli

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #113 on: June 12, 2013, 01:42:16 pm »
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Giving it +1 Card would make it a solid $5 card. I'm guessing that the 1 VP idea would also be too powerful.

Once again, I strongly suggest giving it +$1.
Yep, and the +1 card / 1 VP versions change the card too much. So, +1 for +$1.
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Dsell

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #114 on: June 12, 2013, 01:51:03 pm »
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What makes you think that making it worth 1 VP is too strong? An Estate-with-a-bonus. It's like a better great hall that sometimes isn't.

Well, perhaps I'm off base. It's hard to say how that would play. I think it would self-synergize a little too well. It also makes Great Hall less unique, and it's already a pretty marginal card. Why play Scount/Great Hall when you can play Scout/Scout?

EDIT: Well, OK, Great Hall can draw non-Victory cards, which is pretty key. Still, they'd be awfully similar.

They are indeed similar, and that's a bit of a drawback. But I am ok with boosting Scout's power a lot. It's cool with me if a Scout-centric strategy is viable and even strong as long as it's not dominant-on-every-board strong. I think by adding 1 VP to Scout, you'd still need a lot of support (Ironworks comes to mind) to make it dominant.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #115 on: June 12, 2013, 02:01:08 pm »
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I don't think scout drawing itself makes it better, on average. I mean, if you are playing multiple scouts on the same turn, you are probably seeing mostly the same cards (or at least partially the same cards), and this weakens the efficacy of later scouts.

Scout with a VP would be much more playable, but still bad.

SirPeebles

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #116 on: June 12, 2013, 02:06:54 pm »
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I think it would be more interesting to find some non-vanilla perk rather than tack on +$1.  What if Scout had a Highway effect, lowering the cost of Duchies while in play?  Scouts would then help one construct the green dense decks in which they thrive.  This might not be enough of a buff though.
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Dsell

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #117 on: June 12, 2013, 02:07:16 pm »
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I don't think scout drawing itself makes it better, on average. I mean, if you are playing multiple scouts on the same turn, you are probably seeing mostly the same cards (or at least partially the same cards), and this weakens the efficacy of later scouts.

Scout with a VP would be much more playable, but still bad.

I agree that Scout as a VP card worth 0 VP is not enough, and that 1 VP makes it more viable. What do you think of the other suggestions, or do you have any suggestions of your own to bring Scout into its own?
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #118 on: June 12, 2013, 02:15:45 pm »
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I actually think Scout is best if left exactly as is (and not because I secretly think it's the best card in the game!). Yeah, it's incredibly, incredibly weak, but that almost makes it more rewarding when you do end up buying one every once in 50 100 200 (?) games.

(On a side note: I would be tempted to just delete Adventurer entirely, though. It's terrible at $6, and fine, but too similar to Venture, at $5.)
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SirPeebles

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #119 on: June 12, 2013, 02:17:32 pm »
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What if Scout gave some bonus per Victory card drawn?  Maybe +1$ per card drawn?  Or +1 action per card drawn?

Perhaps this isn't so great, since it leaves Scout just as weak when it whiffs, while turning into a juggernaut when it already would have proved useful.  But the point is that a buff along these lines might encourage a rather new kind of deck revolving around Scout and green flooding, rather than leaving Scout as just a tolerable support card.

Alternatively, you could add a clause "If at least one Victory was revealed, ...".  Maybe you get to trash one card, or you get +$2, or you may discard your hand and draw four new cards, or something.
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Dsell

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #120 on: June 12, 2013, 02:19:36 pm »
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I actually think Scout is best if left exactly as is (and not because I secretly think it's the best card in the game!). Yeah, it's incredibly, incredibly weak, but that almost makes it more rewarding when you do end up buying one every once in 50 100 200 (?) games.

(On a side note: I would be tempted to just delete Adventurer entirely, though. It's terrible at $6, and fine, but too similar to Venture, at $5.)

This is the other one I want to edit for my gaming group, but I think I simply want to give it a +Buy. I couldn't think of anything so simple or satisfying for Scout that would definitely be balanced though.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #121 on: June 12, 2013, 02:21:53 pm »
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What if Scout gave some bonus per Victory card drawn?  Maybe +1$ per card drawn?  Or +1 action per card drawn?

Perhaps this isn't so great, since it leaves Scout just as weak when it whiffs, while turning into a juggernaut when it already would have proved useful.  But the point is that a buff along these lines might encourage a rather new kind of deck revolving around Scout and green flooding, rather than leaving Scout as just a tolerable support card.

Alternatively, you could add a clause "If at least one Victory was revealed, ...".  Maybe you get to trash one card, or you get +$2, or you may discard your hand and draw four new cards, or something.
Or give it a bonus if no victory cards were revealed. Like, if no victory cards were revealed this way, +$2
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #122 on: June 12, 2013, 02:24:12 pm »
+1

Why not just make it +1 card if you did not draw any cards in the previous step?  That way you only get to choose one of your next four cards if none of them are Victory cards.  Similar to Cartographer, but only 4 cards instead of five and you can't discard copper, curses or bad actions for your next turn.  But you do get to draw one card after reordering in the case that you missed Victory cards.

I guess this would make the case when Scout misses better than when it hits, but oh well. 
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #123 on: June 12, 2013, 02:27:41 pm »
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Why not just make it +1 card if you did not draw any cards in the previous step?  That way you only get to choose one of your next four cards if none of them are Victory cards.  Similar to Cartographer, but only 4 cards instead of five and you can't discard copper, curses or bad actions for your next turn.  But you do get to draw one card after reordering in the case that you missed Victory cards.

I guess this would make the case when Scout misses better than when it hits, but oh well.

I actually like this a lot. It becomes pretty strong in an engine, then weaker when it starts greening. And it still has all of its old "utility" for the times when Scout does shine.
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SirPeebles

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #124 on: June 12, 2013, 02:38:51 pm »
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Why not just make it +1 card if you did not draw any cards in the previous step?  That way you only get to choose one of your next four cards if none of them are Victory cards.  Similar to Cartographer, but only 4 cards instead of five and you can't discard copper, curses or bad actions for your next turn.  But you do get to draw one card after reordering in the case that you missed Victory cards.

I guess this would make the case when Scout misses better than when it hits, but oh well.

I suppose the main objection I have to this is that it tends to be better in the absence of green, which is a complete role reversal for Scout.  I feel that a tweak of Scout ought to enhance the idea of successfully navigating through a densely green deck.
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