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Author Topic: What would make Scout better?  (Read 41403 times)

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WheresMyElephant

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2012, 12:56:42 pm »
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What about just increasing the search space to 6 cards and.  leaving everything else unchanged? It buffs the filtering ability.  ty, keeps the spirit of the card the same, and if you don't find any Victory cards then you can use the deck reordering to improve your next hand a little. And hey if it still sucks, at least it'll miss so many reshuffles that you hardly notice! Maybe some of the basic Scout combos like Great Hall would get too strong here but honestly I find it a bit hard to imagine. I mean they might be dominant but no stronger than a good Menagerie or something.
The 6th card is a can of worms. If none of the 6 are Victory cards, you have a chance to manipulate the contents of your next hand. It also gives Scout incredible reordering power for a chain-drawing deck (on par with Cartographer). Five is enough.

Not just your next hand.  It gives the potential to play with the hand AFTER that.  Which is insane, and why cards that seek through your deck for a variable amount of cards always discard, rather than put back on your deck.

Of course it's very possible you guys are right, but I'm not sure it's this absolute. These abilities still come at the cost of hurting your current hand, a drawback which no longer has any compensation whatsoever in terms of filtering or immediate card draw. And your ability to manipulate the hand after next is quite limited: you get to hand one card over from the previous hand. Nothing you couldn't do with Courtyard; you're just doing it a turn in advance, which confers no special benefit. To the contrary, you'd rather improve the current and next hand than improve the next hand and the hand after that, because earlier hands are more critical! 

The only time I can see the "turn after next" thing being really beneficial is that if you draw your SuperScout right after a reshuffle, you're almost guaranteed to put together a 2-card combo of your choice either next turn or the turn after, as long as you didn't draw either of the combo pieces along with the Scout. But hey, you can get the same from Scheme even if you DID draw one of the combo pieces early, and without having to trash your Estates first, and without the handsize-reducing effect.  So I don't see this as overpowered at all.

But I can see where it might potentially be too strong in combination with cards that like to know what's coming up next. Anyway I'd be surprised if Donald X. didn't see Scout as weak and try some of this stuff out, so I'll defer.

Edit: I would however really like to see a card that can rearrange 6 or 7 cards deep,  in order to counter attacks that look at the top of your deck. That would be fun, even if it had to cost $5 or something.  But then maybe you'd have too much AP, and in a way it's basically just like a Secret Chamber that you have to play one turn earlier (and that doesn't suck).
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 01:13:32 pm by WheresMyElephant »
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popsofctown

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2012, 01:10:31 pm »
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(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I've come to realize that Scout synergizes with Scrying Pool, but I still haven't found anything that goes with Adventurer.
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2012, 01:21:56 pm »
+1

What about Adventurer/Counterfeit? They both love trashing Copper and, later, even trashing Silver. You can even prioritize Adventurer over Gold early, supposing you're content to keep doing this Counterfeit+Copper thing for a while: it'll help you cycle and hit the combo more, so the Adventurer doesn't conflict with Gold as much as usual.

And hey if you wind up a little low on Treasure later (always the Achilles' heel of Counterfeit) it's okay: Adventurer will still scrounge up your last Gold or two. As a bonus, you have +Buy so that whenever your Adventurer gives +$5 it isn't wasted.

Full disclosure: I habitually overestimate Counterfeit. But this does look fun: they seem to cover each other's weaknesses in a pretty way.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 01:56:14 pm by WheresMyElephant »
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brokoli

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2012, 02:00:23 pm »
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(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").

Fortune teller is absolutely not a bad card. Far from the top 5 worst cards, probably close to the second half of the best $3 card. I stand by that. (And I agree with Robz on shanty town).
Personally, the only card I REALLY do not understand is navigator. Navigator sucks. Navigator is the worst.
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Titandrake

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2012, 02:24:34 pm »
+1

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").

Fortune teller is absolutely not a bad card. Far from the top 5 worst cards, probably close to the second half of the best $3 card. I stand by that. (And I agree with Robz on shanty town).
Personally, the only card I REALLY do not understand is navigator. Navigator sucks. Navigator is the worst.

Well in theory, Navigator is useful in engines to make sure you keep drawing engine pieces thanks to reordering. In practice, I tend to just buy more engine pieces.

It's an okay terminal silver for Hunting Party, helps you ensure you get $5 hands, but that's more a show of how good Hunting Party is.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #80 on: October 10, 2012, 02:31:07 pm »
+1

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").

Fortune teller is absolutely not a bad card. Far from the top 5 worst cards, probably close to the second half of the best $3 card. I stand by that. (And I agree with Robz on shanty town).
Personally, the only card I REALLY do not understand is navigator. Navigator sucks. Navigator is the worst.

Well in theory, Navigator is useful in engines to make sure you keep drawing engine pieces thanks to reordering. In practice, I tend to just buy more engine pieces.

It's an okay terminal silver for Hunting Party, helps you ensure you get $5 hands, but that's more a show of how good Hunting Party is.

Navigator can be a bad terminal silver - because it can cause a reshuffle when all of your hunting parties are in play.
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SirPeebles

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #81 on: October 10, 2012, 02:33:58 pm »
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The only time I've ever made use of Navigator has been to enable tunnels.
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werothegreat

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2012, 02:37:36 pm »
+3

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").

Fortune teller is absolutely not a bad card. Far from the top 5 worst cards, probably close to the second half of the best $3 card. I stand by that. (And I agree with Robz on shanty town).
Personally, the only card I REALLY do not understand is navigator. Navigator sucks. Navigator is the worst.

Well in theory, Navigator is useful in engines to make sure you keep drawing engine pieces thanks to reordering. In practice, I tend to just buy more engine pieces.

It's an okay terminal silver for Hunting Party, helps you ensure you get $5 hands, but that's more a show of how good Hunting Party is.

Navigator can be a bad terminal silver - because it can cause a reshuffle when all of your hunting parties are in play.

I've also never liked Navigator.  Unless you have Curses and Ruins clogging up your deck (which they wouldn't be if you had spent $4 on Sea Hag/Marauder instead of Navigator), all you're doing is looking at your next hand.  Really, Cartographer solved the problems with both Navigator and Scout.  Scout: "Ok, that's what's next, but now I don't have a card drawn, or really any resource added..." Navigator: "Well, there are two Curses there, but also two Laboratories... if only I could just selectively discard..."  Cartographer: "Guys, I got this."
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popsofctown

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #83 on: October 10, 2012, 03:43:38 pm »
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(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").

Fortune teller is absolutely not a bad card. Far from the top 5 worst cards, probably close to the second half of the best $3 card. I stand by that. (And I agree with Robz on shanty town).
Personally, the only card I REALLY do not understand is navigator. Navigator sucks. Navigator is the worst.

Well in theory, Navigator is useful in engines to make sure you keep drawing engine pieces thanks to reordering. In practice, I tend to just buy more engine pieces.

It's an okay terminal silver for Hunting Party, helps you ensure you get $5 hands, but that's more a show of how good Hunting Party is.

Navigator can be a bad terminal silver - because it can cause a reshuffle when all of your hunting parties are in play.
I don't see why it is necessarily going to make Hunting Parties miss reshuffles more often than it triggers a reshuffle when Hunting Parties are in the discard and you want to see them sooner.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #84 on: October 10, 2012, 04:05:17 pm »
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I don't see why it is necessarily going to make Hunting Parties miss reshuffles more often than it triggers a reshuffle when Hunting Parties are in the discard and you want to see them sooner.

Usually when you play an HP stack you have enough that you get all your unique cards (Copper, Silver, Gold, terminal Silver) and each subsequent HP will only find other HPs or nothing at all.  You end the chain with nothing in the draw pile because your last HP looks through your deck and finds nothing else unique to pick up.  If you end the chain with Navigator or anything that causes a reshuffle at that point, you just lost all your HPs.
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Young Nick

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #85 on: October 10, 2012, 05:05:03 pm »
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Just recently I played a game that used Adventurer quite well. It's partner in crime was Spice Merchant. Trash Coppers, buy Gold and Silver, buy Adventurer. It was surprisingly fast, but unfortunately I didn't grab the log.

It's only problem is that I think Venture does the same thing but is better for it's price.

As for Navigator, I think you guys don't realize when it is good. I like to open with it and the first 2-3 times I use it I discard my hand unless I am guaranteed $6 next turn. This extra cycling is more helpful than most would assume.

Scout is still worse than both of those. Thief is, too. Secret Chamber might also be. It's harder to tell with the $5+ cards.
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KingsSkort

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #86 on: October 10, 2012, 05:31:13 pm »
0

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").

Fortune teller is absolutely not a bad card. Far from the top 5 worst cards, probably close to the second half of the best $3 card. I stand by that. (And I agree with Robz on shanty town).
Personally, the only card I REALLY do not understand is navigator. Navigator sucks. Navigator is the worst.

Well in theory, Navigator is useful in engines to make sure you keep drawing engine pieces thanks to reordering. In practice, I tend to just buy more engine pieces.

It's an okay terminal silver for Hunting Party, helps you ensure you get $5 hands, but that's more a show of how good Hunting Party is.

Navigator can be a bad terminal silver - because it can cause a reshuffle when all of your hunting parties are in play.

I've also never liked Navigator.  Unless you have Curses and Ruins clogging up your deck (which they wouldn't be if you had spent $4 on Sea Hag/Marauder instead of Navigator), all you're doing is looking at your next hand.  Really, Cartographer solved the problems with both Navigator and Scout.  Scout: "Ok, that's what's next, but now I don't have a card drawn, or really any resource added..." Navigator: "Well, there are two Curses there, but also two Laboratories... if only I could just selectively discard..."  Cartographer: "Guys, I got this."

I had a theory for a while that Navigator BM is actually good, because it helps you hit gold early on and provinces later. (I think geronimoo's simulator at least misplays it by discarding early gold hands.) I don't believe this passionately any more, but I will say that it's slightly underrated as a BM card.
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chwhite

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #87 on: October 10, 2012, 06:51:39 pm »
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Navigator's obviously not a great card, but it's better than most people give it credit for.  Beyond the obvious Tunnel synergy, I often pick one up in low-or-no-trash engine games (especially ones where all the parts are at $5) for an early tempo boost.  It's a hard card to develop good play rules for, you just kinda need to see how much competition it has.

And of course it plays well with cards that benefit from lookahead, like Scrying Pool and Wishing Well.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 06:55:00 pm by chwhite »
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popsofctown

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #88 on: October 10, 2012, 08:08:13 pm »
+1

In no trash cursy games it can be so good.  Discard an Estate, 2 Curses and 2 coppers off the top of your deck and you just played a tactician.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #89 on: October 10, 2012, 09:07:59 pm »
+1

Navigator is a low utility card, it doesn't need to cost $4... but it's not so so bad. Terminal silvers with even marginal benefits are more useful than people give them credit for, methinks.
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popsofctown

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #90 on: October 10, 2012, 09:30:46 pm »
0

the problem is there's always at least a Harvest on the board promising to make better use of Actions
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brokoli

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #91 on: October 11, 2012, 04:40:56 am »
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As for Navigator, I think you guys don't realize when it is good. I like to open with it and the first 2-3 times I use it I discard my hand unless I am guaranteed $6 next turn. This extra cycling is more helpful than most would assume.

In this case, I prefer chancellor ! The extra cycling is much stronger...
Because navigator is always a dilemna with no real responses. You don't know what to do with your next hand, and often navigator is the last action of your turn (reordering is not helpful).
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greatexpectations

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #92 on: October 11, 2012, 08:33:28 am »
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Just recently I played a game that used Adventurer quite well.

same here. in that game i used mint and island to get to a point where my deck only had 5-6 silver. adventurer became a terminal $4 for me.
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Asklepios

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #93 on: October 11, 2012, 08:53:30 am »
+1

Personally, I'd say that a better long term fix to Scout and Counting House would be to add cards that work well with them.

So for Scout, an expansion full of new functional victory cards: Maybe some cards like:

Really Great Hall
$4 Action/Victory card
+1 action for each action you have played this turn, including this one.
+1 card for each victory card you have played this turn, including this one.
Worth 1 VP

Land Tax
$4 Treasure/Victory card
Reveal your hand: +$1 for each Victory card in your hand.
Worth 0 VP

For Counting House, some ways of rapidly sifting coppers into your discard, or placing it in the deck optimally:

Forward Planning
$3 action
Reveal a card from your hand, put it anywhere in your deck.

Scheming Chancellor Tactician Bloke
$7 action
Discard your deck.
During cleanup choose up to five cards you played this turn, put them on your deck.

Desperation Funding
$2 action
+1 action
Discard any number of cards, gain that many coppers.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 08:57:19 am by Asklepios »
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werothegreat

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #94 on: October 11, 2012, 08:56:39 am »
+1

Personally, I'd say that a better long term fix to Scout and Counting House would be to add cards that work well with them.

So for Scout, an expansion full of new functional victory cards: Maybe some cards like:

Really Great Hall
$4 Action/Victory card
+1 action for each action you have played this turn, including this one.
+1 card for each victory card you have played this turn, including this one.
Worth 1 VP

Land Tax
$4 Treasure/Victory card
Reveal your hand: +$1 for each Victory card in your hand.
Worth 0 VP

For Counting House, some ways of rapidly sifting coppers into your discard, or placing it in the deck optimally:

Forward Planning
$3 action
Reveal a card from your hand, put it anywhere in your deck.

Desperation Funding
$2 action
+1 action
Discard any number of cards, gain that many coppers.

The only one of these I sort of like is Land Tax.  Really Great Hall is disgustingly overpowered, Forward Planning is just stupid (sorry), but Desperation Funding could be... interesting.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #95 on: October 11, 2012, 09:34:29 am »
0

I designed a "fan expansion" with a bunch of cards with the "Bottom of the Deck" gimmick. It was mostly variants of existing cards (eg a bottom of the deck "Ghost Ship", bottom of the deck "Courtyard") with a few unique cards like a sinking treasure (called Pearl :P) and a card that gave you a benefit when you correctly guessed the bottom card of someone's deck (encouraging faster shuffling). Many of those cards would combo well with Counting House (and of course, Pearl Diver, another card that may need improvement).

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #96 on: October 11, 2012, 10:03:10 am »
0

Navigator's obviously not a great card, but it's better than most people give it credit for.  Beyond the obvious Tunnel synergy, I often pick one up in low-or-no-trash engine games (especially ones where all the parts are at $5) for an early tempo boost.  It's a hard card to develop good play rules for, you just kinda need to see how much competition it has.

And of course it plays well with cards that benefit from lookahead, like Scrying Pool and Wishing Well.

This may say more about King's Court than Navigator, but I played a pretty good game once based around the KC-Navigator combo—play KC-Navigator, and you have three chances to look at your next hand and discard it if it doesn't contain KC, Navigator, and Silver.
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PSGarak

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #97 on: October 11, 2012, 11:32:40 am »
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What if Scout was a VP-Action hybrid, so it could draw itself? And also worth a point, so it could be a tiebreaker in close games.
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KingsSkort

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #98 on: October 11, 2012, 12:08:58 pm »
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Navigator's obviously not a great card, but it's better than most people give it credit for.  Beyond the obvious Tunnel synergy, I often pick one up in low-or-no-trash engine games (especially ones where all the parts are at $5) for an early tempo boost.  It's a hard card to develop good play rules for, you just kinda need to see how much competition it has.

And of course it plays well with cards that benefit from lookahead, like Scrying Pool and Wishing Well.

This may say more about King's Court than Navigator, but I played a pretty good game once based around the KC-Navigator combo—play KC-Navigator, and you have three chances to look at your next hand and discard it if it doesn't contain KC, Navigator, and Silver.

Navigator is stronger when you can accurately evaluate your next hand. If you have an engine deck (or really, anything with draw), you have uncertainty. Is Lab + $5 a province? You can't tell.
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aaron0013

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #99 on: October 13, 2012, 10:21:06 am »
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WHARF: TERRIBLE CARD.  As we all know there are only a few cases where this card shines. The only way I have found to make it work is to use Scout to pick up loose victory cards, Shanty Town for more actions, Counterfeit to trash the coppers, and Adventurer to find the gold.

I think Wharf could be made better by giving it a Looter ability as well as gaining Spoils, Madmen, and Prizes.

Or would that make it too powerful?
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