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Author Topic: What would make Scout better?  (Read 41252 times)

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werothegreat

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What would make Scout better?
« on: October 09, 2012, 10:15:20 am »
+1

The Scout joke has been done to death at this point, and we all know it's not exactly the best card out there.  So what would make it better?  It couldn't be anything to radically change the intent of the card, which is to scan the top of your deck and put Victory cards into your hand.

I think a +1 Card would make all the difference.  This would put it on par with Apothecary, which is only slightly more expensive with an opportunity cost, which is fine, because in most cases Coppers will be much more valuable to you than Estates.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2012, 10:17:00 am »
+1

Similarly - does Counting House need an improvement?  I would say not - I actually used it quite effectively in a Beggar game yesterday.  The one problem with CH is when your discard pile is empty.  Would a deck-into-discard option make this card too powerful for its cost?
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GendoIkari

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2012, 10:19:03 am »
0

The Scout joke has been done to death at this point, and we all know it's not exactly the best card out there.  So what would make it better?  It couldn't be anything to radically change the intent of the card, which is to scan the top of your deck and put Victory cards into your hand.

I think a +1 Card would make all the difference.  This would put it on par with Apothecary, which is only slightly more expensive with an opportunity cost, which is fine, because in most cases Coppers will be much more valuable to you than Estates.

Even though we know there's generally no real price difference between $3 and $4, I wonder why Scout costs $4 instead of $3, and if it would be any better at $3.

One boost that could be interesting would be to make it an Action-Victory card. If giving it 1VP is too powerful, then maybe even 0VP, now that we have a precedence.
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GendoIkari

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2012, 10:20:27 am »
+2

Similarly - does Counting House need an improvement?  I would say not - I actually used it quite effectively in a Beggar game yesterday.  The one problem with CH is when your discard pile is empty.  Would a deck-into-discard option make this card too powerful for its cost?

Deck-into-discard would make it INSANELY powerful! It would be comparable to a terminal +$7; very easy to turn it into a terminal +$8.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2012, 10:24:45 am »
0

I think scout may actually be ok with most of the above improvements. Action/Victory (0 vp) cantrip that draws victory cards from the top 4 of the deck? That could work, and maybe should even cost $5 due to how well it self-synergizes. It would also be absolutely nuts in all-intrigue games, where scout is already pretty good. But overall that might work.

If only one change is allowed, either the +1 card or the Action/Victory type could be good.
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AJD

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2012, 10:33:40 am »
0

Similarly - does Counting House need an improvement?  I would say not - I actually used it quite effectively in a Beggar game yesterday.  The one problem with CH is when your discard pile is empty.  Would a deck-into-discard option make this card too powerful for its cost?

It would, as noted. But I feel like Counting House could use a +buy, like Trade Route has. It would help those situations where you're pulling 11+ coppers out of the discard pile, and it would make it easier to buy copper as well. I find it hard to believe that +buy would overpower Counting House, but maybe?
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2012, 10:41:48 am »
+1

Similarly - does Counting House need an improvement?  I would say not - I actually used it quite effectively in a Beggar game yesterday.  The one problem with CH is when your discard pile is empty.  Would a deck-into-discard option make this card too powerful for its cost?

It would, as noted. But I feel like Counting House could use a +buy, like Trade Route has. It would help those situations where you're pulling 11+ coppers out of the discard pile, and it would make it easier to buy copper as well. I find it hard to believe that +buy would overpower Counting House, but maybe?

A +Buy seems pretty reasonable.  But it does make me think - does every +$ card need a +Buy? 
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2012, 10:45:02 am »
0

All ideas I can think of:
+1 card
Picks up curses
Make it an action/victory or explicitly able to pick up other scouts (in conjunction with the +1 card thing)
Bigger search space (eg top 5 cards)
Lower cost
Add in a reaction, on gain or on trash effect
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DG

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2012, 10:49:41 am »
+1

Scout - put ruins, curses, and victory cards into hand.
Counting house - add +1 coin.

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2012, 10:49:49 am »
+2

CH could either put Coppers into your hand, or if you did not do so, shuffle CH into your deck during cleanup.
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brokoli

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2012, 11:17:27 am »
0

Various ideas :

For Scout :
- Can pick up curses and ruins
- Cost $3
- Reveal 5 cards insted of 4 (but even...)

For counting house :
- +1 buy
- Discard your hand and draw from 0 to 4 cards in hand before you take the coppers.
- +$1
- You may gain a copper before you look through your discard pile

For transmute (yes) :
- +$1
- +1 card

But I agree that counting house don't especially need modification.
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SirPeebles

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2012, 11:20:37 am »
+1

+1 Card on Scout would make it play quite a bit more like Cartographer.  It would be especially nice if the +1 Card came after drawing off the victory cards and sorting the cards.  But then it might be too powerful.

Counting House would be much nicer with a +1 Buy.  Sure, all +$ cards would like + Buy, but many of them can be paired with other sources of +Buy in a nice engine.  Counting Houses tend to float in a sea of Coppers.  +Buy would mean more Coppers early on, and would even out the randomness.  A Counting House early in a shuffle is wasted, and this isn't currently balanced by that Counting House drawn at the end of your shuffle which gives you $16, but which isn't able to pair with a source of +Buy since.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2012, 11:26:22 am »
0

Counting House could have something like this:

Choose: +2 Cards or [discard 2 cards, +$1, +1 Buy] <-- not all on the card, just chucking a few ideas into the same pot.

The +2 cards needs to be optional otherwise it would break any combos with deck-into-discard. The benefit of +2 cards is not huge, but helps speed up the general play of Counting House perhaps. I'm not sure it needs a serious boost to each time it's played as that would likely become overpowered, so far that reason I'm less sure about things like +1 Buy as that could a really strong effect each time and would help you pick up coppers - I wonder if that would have a bit too much self-synergy.

Scout:

+1 Card sounds fair, but is rather uninspiring - it essentially makes it a worse version of Cartographer (which is really already is I suppose). What about something a bit more controversial like "gain a VP costing less than 5" ? Or increase the number drawn to 5 or even 6?

Eidt : hah, a couple of my ideas got posted while I typed. :)
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2012, 11:28:18 am »
0

I'll resist the urge to make a joke and instead suggest that perhaps Scout should give you something for drawing Victory cards? Like, "If you drew any cards into your hand this way, +$1." I think +$1 per card drawn into your hand would be too powerful. But I don't know. This is Scout we're talking about.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2012, 11:52:54 am »
0

I think the cleanest change to Scout would be to give it a flat +$1. +1 Card would make it too powerful for a $4 card, on par with Cartographer. Increasing its search range would make it take much longer to resolve. Having it put Curses into your hand would also be a nice change, making it useful in a different kind of game than it's normally used in.

Scout:

+1 Card sounds fair, but is rather uninspiring - it essentially makes it a worse version of Cartographer (which is really already is I suppose).

Worse? In any game with a sifter (Cellar, Warehouse), it's a much better version of Cartographer. Cartographer can't increase your hand size.

Quote
What about something a bit more controversial like "gain a VP costing less than 5" ? Or increase the number drawn to 5 or even 6?

Looking at the next 5 cards would slow things down, but looking at the next 6 cards is right out. If you don't reveal any Victory cards, you might be deciding which of these 6 cards goes into the hand after your next hand? No thanks.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 11:56:49 am by LastFootnote »
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2012, 12:07:48 pm »
0

I think that scout picking up ruins and shelters would be better. I think Vagrant is essentially good Scout on most boards and it costs 2 less.

If Scout Cantriped it would probably be playable on a lot of boards. If Scout picked up Ruins and Shelters it would be playable on Dark ages boards.

If Scout Cantripped and picked up ruins and shelters I feel it would probably be buyable on many boards.
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chwhite

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2012, 12:12:58 pm »
0

Make it Action-Victory (for 0 VP), let it pick up Curses, and look at the top 5 cards instead.  Maybe drop it down to $3 and stick with just the top 4.

That should make it playable a reasonable percentage of the time.  Doesn't need to be a power card.

...

I really like the idea of giving Counting House +Buy, I'm a little surprised that hasn't been mentioned before to my knowledge.  It makes sense, given that I want a +Buy on Adventurer, too, and those cards are surprisingly similar in a number of ways (expensive terminals that do nothing but give you a potentially great but often unreliable amount of Treasure).
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chwhite

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2012, 12:17:23 pm »
0

Various ideas :

For Scout :
- Can pick up curses and ruins
- Cost $3
- Reveal 5 cards insted of 4 (but even...)

For counting house :
- +1 buy
- Discard your hand and draw from 0 to 4 cards in hand before you take the coppers.
- +$1
- You may gain a copper before you look through your discard pile

For transmute (yes) :
- +$1
- +1 card

But I agree that counting house don't especially need modification.

Transmute doesn't need those things to be a useful card.  I think adding +1 Action would be a nice buff, but the 'Mute already has more utility than probably a dozen cards or so.
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chwhite

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2012, 12:26:36 pm »
0

Also, I don't particularly like the idea of Scout picking up Ruins and Shelters.  It would be useful for power balance in an all-random setup, but it just feels wrong for a card to refer to things that only work with specific other expansions.  It would be sort of like Salvager giving +$2 for Potion in the cost of the trashed card.  I guess thematically it'd make some sense for Scout to get Hovel and Necropolis, but as long as we're not going to let Baron discard an Overgrown Estate that should probably not happen.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 12:28:22 pm by chwhite »
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2012, 12:28:51 pm »
0

Various ideas :

For Scout :
- Can pick up curses and ruins
- Cost $3
- Reveal 5 cards insted of 4 (but even...)

For counting house :
- +1 buy
- Discard your hand and draw from 0 to 4 cards in hand before you take the coppers.
- +$1
- You may gain a copper before you look through your discard pile

For transmute (yes) :
- +$1
- +1 card

But I agree that counting house don't especially need modification.

Transmute doesn't need those things to be a useful card.  I think adding +1 Action would be a nice buff, but the 'Mute already has more utility than probably a dozen cards or so.

Wow!  The best thing I can say about 'mute is that its an ok pickup on t3/t4 when you miss your familiar buy.

I'd be very interested to see your list of 12 cards with lesser utility.
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brokoli

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2012, 12:30:13 pm »
0

Also, I don't particularly like the idea of Scout picking up Ruins and Shelters.  It would be useful for power balance in an all-random setup, but it just feels wrong for a card to refer to things that only work with specific other expansions.  It would be sort of like Salvager giving +$2 for Potion in the cost of the trashed card.  I guess thematically it'd make some sense for Scout to get Hovel and Necropolis, but as long as we're not going to let Baron discard an Overgrown Estate that should probably not happen.

In fact I really like the idea of salvager giving +$2 for potion.
I really don't see where is the problem with a card that refer to other expansions ...
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2012, 12:41:09 pm »
0

I'm really liking the idea of both +$1, and making Scout a victory card. Makes it a self comboing beast; Minion Jr. perhaps.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2012, 12:44:25 pm »
+1

Quote
I really don't see where is the problem with a card that refer to other expansions ...
In the long run, and assuming you have all the expansions, it's not a problem as really the expansions are artificial boundaries. However, in real terms it unnecessarily complicates expansions by mentioning other game features without explaining what they are. In terms of game design that's not very desirable.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2012, 12:53:02 pm »
+2

Transmute: When you gain this, +1 buy.

You can't make a run on the pile because it's hard to get enough potions in play. You may not always want the transmute if you've got the potion because it's a terminal (similar to duchess). Also you can get an extra benefit out of the unpopular "trash a treasure for a transmute" option.

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2012, 12:55:35 pm »
+1

Idea for Counting House:

"Look through your discard pile.  If there are 5 or fewer cards in it, discard the top 5 cards of your deck.  Reveal any number of Coppers from your discard, and put them in your hand."
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2012, 01:00:43 pm »
+7

Or have Counting House choose between all the Coppers in your draw deck or all the Coppers in your discard, but not both.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2012, 01:05:55 pm »
0

Also, I don't particularly like the idea of Scout picking up Ruins and Shelters.  It would be useful for power balance in an all-random setup, but it just feels wrong for a card to refer to things that only work with specific other expansions.

Victory cards and cards costing at most $3 less than this that aren't Copper? (poor house...)

One thing I don't like is that Fortune Teller specifies "Victory or Curse", while Rabble has the better "discard actions and treasures".

It doesn't matter much though; there are only 3 action/victory cards (and Dame Josephine) and 1 treasure/victory. This is why Scout is so inept.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2012, 01:11:39 pm »
0

Quote
I really don't see where is the problem with a card that refer to other expansions ...
In the long run, and assuming you have all the expansions, it's not a problem as really the expansions are artificial boundaries. However, in real terms it unnecessarily complicates expansions by mentioning other game features without explaining what they are. In terms of game design that's not very desirable.

Of course, but we know we won't change the official rules... we are all dominion fans who play with all expansions mixed, no ?
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2012, 01:17:30 pm »
+1

Lots of other games have patches.  Pretty fun games too.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2012, 01:25:48 pm »
0

I feel like Counting House could use a +buy, like Trade Route has. It would help those situations where you're pulling 11+ coppers out of the discard pile, and it would make it easier to buy copper as well. I find it hard to believe that +buy would overpower Counting House, but maybe?

A +Buy seems pretty reasonable.  But it does make me think - does every +$ card need a +Buy?

In particular, I think +Buy is good on cards that can give you large amounts of +$, but don't always do so—that way the +buy gives you something to use the money on, if you get the money; and if you don't get the money, the +buy is at least a potentially useful bonus that might make you willing to buy the card in a few more contexts than you would otherwise. Trade Route and Baron are good examples of what I mean.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2012, 01:27:19 pm »
+1

I feel like Counting House could use a +buy, like Trade Route has. It would help those situations where you're pulling 11+ coppers out of the discard pile, and it would make it easier to buy copper as well. I find it hard to believe that +buy would overpower Counting House, but maybe?

A +Buy seems pretty reasonable.  But it does make me think - does every +$ card need a +Buy?

In particular, I think +Buy is good on cards that can give you large amounts of +$, but don't always do so—that way the +buy gives you something to use the money on, if you get the money; and if you don't get the money, the +buy is at least a potentially useful bonus that might make you willing to buy the card in a few more contexts than you would otherwise. Trade Route and Baron are good examples of what I mean.

Contrast this with Death Cart - a +Buy would make it way too strong.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2012, 02:31:51 pm »
0

Wow!  The best thing I can say about 'mute is that its an ok pickup on t3/t4 when you miss your familiar buy.

I'd be very interested to see your list of 12 cards with lesser utility.

Transmute is great later on in Familiar games, it can combo with Vineyards, sometimes if there are other curse-givers and a neat engine to build it can be useful, or with Dukes or other Alchemy-heavy setups... there are ways to make it work.

Anyway, the cards I'd consider worse than Transmute (mind you, this is not counting Dark Ages, which I've barely played- and also keep in mind that DA might boost the Mute a bit too, with stuff like Ruins -> Duchy for instance):
Thief
Scout
Counting House
Adventurer
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Saboteur
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

...Okay, I guess that's only eleven.  You could arguably throw Mandarin or PStone in for 12, though they're probably a tiny bit better.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2012, 02:39:37 pm »
+1

You are not allowed to hate on Pirate Ship.  Saboteur and Adventurer are lower down, but still don't belong on that list.  And Counting House can be pretty damn useful.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2012, 02:40:35 pm »
0

I'm coming around on transmute being better than some other cards, although not nearly as many as on chwhite's list.

If I were going to buff transmute, I'd put a "you may" before all the gains, so that you can use transmute to trash a potion or a copper when you get unlucky and draw it without an estate.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2012, 03:01:38 pm »
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Wow!  The best thing I can say about 'mute is that its an ok pickup on t3/t4 when you miss your familiar buy.

I'd be very interested to see your list of 12 cards with lesser utility.

Transmute is great later on in Familiar games, it can combo with Vineyards, sometimes if there are other curse-givers and a neat engine to build it can be useful, or with Dukes or other Alchemy-heavy setups... there are ways to make it work.

Anyway, the cards I'd consider worse than Transmute (mind you, this is not counting Dark Ages, which I've barely played- and also keep in mind that DA might boost the Mute a bit too, with stuff like Ruins -> Duchy for instance):
Thief
Scout
Counting House
Adventurer
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Saboteur
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

...Okay, I guess that's only eleven.  You could arguably throw Mandarin or PStone in for 12, though they're probably a tiny bit better.

I'll meet you halfway: I now agree that Scout, Thief, Adventurer, Counting House, and Saboteur are all definitely worse than Transmute.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2012, 03:48:01 pm »
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Wow!  The best thing I can say about 'mute is that its an ok pickup on t3/t4 when you miss your familiar buy.

I'd be very interested to see your list of 12 cards with lesser utility.

Transmute is great later on in Familiar games, it can combo with Vineyards, sometimes if there are other curse-givers and a neat engine to build it can be useful, or with Dukes or other Alchemy-heavy setups... there are ways to make it work.

Anyway, the cards I'd consider worse than Transmute (mind you, this is not counting Dark Ages, which I've barely played- and also keep in mind that DA might boost the Mute a bit too, with stuff like Ruins -> Duchy for instance):
Thief
Scout
Counting House
Adventurer
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Saboteur
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

...Okay, I guess that's only eleven.  You could arguably throw Mandarin or PStone in for 12, though they're probably a tiny bit better.

I'll meet you halfway: I now agree that Scout, Thief, Adventurer, Counting House, and Saboteur are all definitely worse than Transmute.

adventurer and saboteur are better than transmute. I'll give him Thief, Scout, and possibly Counting House.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2012, 03:53:17 pm »
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Wow!  The best thing I can say about 'mute is that its an ok pickup on t3/t4 when you miss your familiar buy.

I'd be very interested to see your list of 12 cards with lesser utility.

Transmute is great later on in Familiar games, it can combo with Vineyards, sometimes if there are other curse-givers and a neat engine to build it can be useful, or with Dukes or other Alchemy-heavy setups... there are ways to make it work.

Anyway, the cards I'd consider worse than Transmute (mind you, this is not counting Dark Ages, which I've barely played- and also keep in mind that DA might boost the Mute a bit too, with stuff like Ruins -> Duchy for instance):
Thief
Scout
Counting House
Adventurer
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Saboteur
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

...Okay, I guess that's only eleven.  You could arguably throw Mandarin or PStone in for 12, though they're probably a tiny bit better.

I'll meet you halfway: I now agree that Scout, Thief, Adventurer, Counting House, and Saboteur are all definitely worse than Transmute.

adventurer and saboteur are better than transmute. I'll give him Thief, Scout, and possibly Counting House.

I would argue Adventurer and Saboteur are worse than Transmute, mainly because now and then edge cases present themselves where you do want Transmute, or you draw Potion without enough money for something great and you just pick up Transmute. Favorable edge cases for Saboteur come about once in a million games, and Adventurer even less frequently than that.
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werothegreat

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2012, 03:59:27 pm »
+1

Wow!  The best thing I can say about 'mute is that its an ok pickup on t3/t4 when you miss your familiar buy.

I'd be very interested to see your list of 12 cards with lesser utility.

Transmute is great later on in Familiar games, it can combo with Vineyards, sometimes if there are other curse-givers and a neat engine to build it can be useful, or with Dukes or other Alchemy-heavy setups... there are ways to make it work.

Anyway, the cards I'd consider worse than Transmute (mind you, this is not counting Dark Ages, which I've barely played- and also keep in mind that DA might boost the Mute a bit too, with stuff like Ruins -> Duchy for instance):
Thief
Scout
Counting House
Adventurer
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Saboteur
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

...Okay, I guess that's only eleven.  You could arguably throw Mandarin or PStone in for 12, though they're probably a tiny bit better.

I'll meet you halfway: I now agree that Scout, Thief, Adventurer, Counting House, and Saboteur are all definitely worse than Transmute.

adventurer and saboteur are better than transmute. I'll give him Thief, Scout, and possibly Counting House.

I would argue Adventurer and Saboteur are worse than Transmute, mainly because now and then edge cases present themselves where you do want Transmute, or you draw Potion without enough money for something great and you just pick up Transmute. Favorable edge cases for Saboteur come about once in a million games, and Adventurer even less frequently than that.

And yet the Goko bot keeps buying Adventurers and winning.  Also, Highway(or Bridge) and Graverobber(or Rogue) make Saboteur as sweet as honey.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2012, 04:06:52 pm »
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Scout isn't a useless card, just a niche card. In the rare case that there are useful half-VP cards in a kingdom, or when you are rushing a 3-pile, alt-VP ending, it can give your deck a cheap and powerful drawing boost. But in many games, its value lies not in its ability to pick up useless Victory cards, but in its ability to re-order the deck. If Scout is out on a board with Mystic or Wishing Well, it's almost definitely worthwhile to buy one or two for its indirect drawing bonus, but even if you just have trouble getting your Villages with your Smithies, Scout can help you set up that combo. Also, Scout is a pretty unique card in that it becomes more powerful during the greening stage, slightly dampening the burden that Victory cards place on your deck, so if you have a mid-sized deck and the greening process really hurts you, Scout could be a nice option.

I know this isn't what the OP is asking, but I always feel the need to challenge bad reputations.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2012, 04:41:27 pm »
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Even though we know there's generally no real price difference between $3 and $4, I wonder why Scout costs $4 instead of $3, and if it would be any better at $3.

Would Scout/Island be any good in that scenario? I'd guess not but it's the only appreciable change that leaped out at me.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2012, 04:47:18 pm »
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I'll meet you halfway: I now agree that Scout, Thief, Adventurer, Counting House, and Saboteur are all definitely worse than Transmute.

If you're playing games with 3 to 5 Alchemy cards at a time, I'll grant that Transmute could be better than Counting House. If you're playing full random games, there's just no way that's true. I win with Counting House decks far more frequently than I win buying a Potion just for Transmute.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2012, 04:55:41 pm »
0

I'll meet you halfway: I now agree that Scout, Thief, Adventurer, Counting House, and Saboteur are all definitely worse than Transmute.

If you're playing games with 3 to 5 Alchemy cards at a time, I'll grant that Transmute could be better than Counting House. If you're playing full random games, there's just no way that's true. I win with Counting House decks far more frequently than I win buying a Potion just for Transmute.

Well... I think Counting House is definitely the one I was least sure of there. I tend to miss even obvious Counting House strategies. So yeah, I could be wrong there.
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brokoli

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2012, 05:12:56 pm »
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Thief
Scout
Counting House
Adventurer
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Saboteur
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

Mmm. Maybe you are right about the interactions between transmute and Dark ages but... I completely disagree. Saboteur is far better than transmute, it's incredible how this sab is underrated, I win very often with it.
Stash and cache are comparable to silver, and I prefer taking a $5 silver than a transmute.
Explorer ? Underrated.
Pirate Ship, talisman and treasure map ? Quite often viables.
Counting house ? Sometimes very, very good.
Even adventurer is powerful sometimes, when you have two-three silvers/golds in your deck.

So, scout and thief are probably the only ones for which I can agree (and even).
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2012, 05:20:44 pm »
0

As time goes on, I feel myself finding new ways to use the least-appreciated cards. That's what's so wonderful about Dominion. Noawadays I am liable to give Scout a shot, and sometimes I even find it helping me. As I play more games, I learn to rely on specific cards less and less, and I find those special scenarios where even terrible cards can shine. And as I go through this discovery process, and new sets are released, it becomes harder and harder to separate the awful from the merely situational.

... but the one card for which this is not true is Adventurer. Simply put, I never want Adventurer. My opinion of it only falls over time. When do you have room for a ridiculously expensive terminal non-attack that requires mass-purging of Coppers? Almost never, that's when.
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Dsell

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2012, 05:22:44 pm »
0

... but the one card for which this is not true is Adventurer. Simply put, I never want Adventurer. My opinion of it only falls over time. When do you have room for a ridiculously expensive terminal non-attack that requires mass-purging of Coppers? Almost never, that's when.

Where oh where is council room? I had a 3 player game not too long ago where Chapel-Adventurer was dominant, or seemed to be. I'm no fan of Adventurer, but it has its moments.
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werothegreat

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2012, 05:22:55 pm »
+1

As time goes on, I feel myself finding new ways to use the least-appreciated cards. That's what's so wonderful about Dominion. Noawadays I am liable to give Scout a shot, and sometimes I even find it helping me. As I play more games, I learn to rely on specific cards less and less, and I find those special scenarios where even terrible cards can shine. And as I go through this discovery process, and new sets are released, it becomes harder and harder to separate the awful from the merely situational.

... but the one card for which this is not true is Adventurer. Simply put, I never want Adventurer. My opinion of it only falls over time. When do you have room for a ridiculously expensive terminal non-attack that requires mass-purging of Coppers? Almost never, that's when.

Chapel games.  Or Mint or Count games.  Mint is where it probably shines most.  I remember there was one game I was trashing Golds so that my Adventurer always found Platinums.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2012, 05:25:04 pm »
0

As time goes on, I feel myself finding new ways to use the least-appreciated cards. That's what's so wonderful about Dominion. Noawadays I am liable to give Scout a shot, and sometimes I even find it helping me. As I play more games, I learn to rely on specific cards less and less, and I find those special scenarios where even terrible cards can shine. And as I go through this discovery process, and new sets are released, it becomes harder and harder to separate the awful from the merely situational.

... but the one card for which this is not true is Adventurer. Simply put, I never want Adventurer. My opinion of it only falls over time. When do you have room for a ridiculously expensive terminal non-attack that requires mass-purging of Coppers? Almost never, that's when.

One card I've had this experience with lately is Coppersmith. I used to rarely if ever buy it, but I've had a couple of games with it and Goons, and add in some decent draw and suddenly you can get a lot more out of those Coppers you really want to buy but without slowing your deck down too much.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2012, 05:27:59 pm »
0

Well, I'm not the world's greatest player, and I have very little experience with Dark Ages. I could be wrong, but I can't remember seeing a board where I said, "Adventurer is dominant here" in... many months, perhaps. And I was playing a lot of Dominion this summer (less now).

Chapel/Adventurer exists I know, but still, you have to have like zero strong attacks, zero terminal draw, zero super-duper engine potential... Adventurer is not a good BM card, it's not a good engine card. Explorer is like that too, but Explorer is mercifully cheaper.
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2012, 05:40:13 pm »
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Isn't Vagrant pretty much the fixed Scout you're looking for? So, yeah, +1 Card.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2012, 05:42:14 pm »
0

... but the one card for which this is not true is Adventurer. Simply put, I never want Adventurer. My opinion of it only falls over time. When do you have room for a ridiculously expensive terminal non-attack that requires mass-purging of Coppers? Almost never, that's when.

Chapel.
It's simple. Open chapel/something. Trash all your starting coppers and estates. Don't take more than two silver and two golds, and take some action cards (including villages). It's very fast and Adventurer will worth $5 on average.

Quote from: Robz888
Chapel/Adventurer exists I know, but still, you have to have like zero strong attacks, zero terminal draw, zero super-duper engine potential... Adventurer is not a good BM card, it's not a good engine card. Explorer is like that too, but Explorer is mercifully cheaper.

Hey, chapel/adventurer is not a BM strategy, it's an engine where you draw always your few treasures, having all the time to buy some markets, spies, lab, etc.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2012, 05:46:24 pm »
+1

... but the one card for which this is not true is Adventurer. Simply put, I never want Adventurer. My opinion of it only falls over time. When do you have room for a ridiculously expensive terminal non-attack that requires mass-purging of Coppers? Almost never, that's when.

Chapel.
It's simple. Open chapel/something. Trash all your starting coppers and estates. Don't take more than two silver and two golds, and take some action cards (including villages). It's very fast and Adventurer will worth $5 on average.

Quote from: Robz888
Chapel/Adventurer exists I know, but still, you have to have like zero strong attacks, zero terminal draw, zero super-duper engine potential... Adventurer is not a good BM card, it's not a good engine card. Explorer is like that too, but Explorer is mercifully cheaper.

Hey, chapel/adventurer is not a BM strategy, it's an engine where you draw always your few treasures, having all the time to buy some markets, spies, lab, etc.
If a single terminal is making 5/8th of your province, I call it a Big Money strategy.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2012, 06:12:02 pm »
0

And yet the Goko bot keeps buying Adventurers and winning.

This is in pure Base, where the card pool is substantially weaker. It also doesn't win when it has Copper in it (that is, not starting with all goddamn Silver).
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 06:13:07 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2012, 07:49:14 pm »
0

I think this is a card that is very fair, and I would buy it on many more boards without it being overpowered.

Quote
Scout   
Action $4   
+1 Action
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory or Curse cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.
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Bill The Cat

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2012, 07:49:43 pm »
0

Could Adventurer be "fixed" by simply making its cost 5?
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2012, 07:53:00 pm »
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Could Adventurer be "fixed" by simply making its cost 5?
It'd probably be one of the worst 5's, but it wouldn't be the worst 5.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2012, 08:00:12 pm »
0

Could Adventurer be "fixed" by simply making its cost 5?
It'd probably be one of the worst 5's, but it wouldn't be the worst 5.

Agreed. Still a weak card, but it probably becomes doable. At $6 it's really just horrid.
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Bill The Cat

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2012, 08:05:29 pm »
+5

Could Adventurer be "fixed" by simply making its cost 5?
It'd probably be one of the worst 5's, but it wouldn't be the worst 5.

It seems like a cost of 5 would make it pretty comparable to Harvest, i.e. a terminal gold in many decks.  And yeah, Harvest is no hot sauce at 5 either.

I cannot believe that a discussion about Adventurer has drawn me out of my long-time commitment to silent lurking.  Well, hello.  I have spent 1 day 22 hours on this forum, with the sole purpose of staying ahead of my wife in our 10 RL games a week Dominion... uh, habit?  I do not think she knows about this site.  That makes me neutral evil, I think.
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werothegreat

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2012, 08:29:30 pm »
+1

Could Adventurer be "fixed" by simply making its cost 5?
It'd probably be one of the worst 5's, but it wouldn't be the worst 5.

It seems like a cost of 5 would make it pretty comparable to Harvest, i.e. a terminal gold in many decks.  And yeah, Harvest is no hot sauce at 5 either.

I cannot believe that a discussion about Adventurer has drawn me out of my long-time commitment to silent lurking.  Well, hello.  I have spent 1 day 22 hours on this forum, with the sole purpose of staying ahead of my wife in our 10 RL games a week Dominion... uh, habit?  I do not think she knows about this site.  That makes me neutral evil, I think.

Welcome aboard.  Have you seen the memes thread?
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greatexpectations

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2012, 08:35:45 pm »
0

Welcome aboard.  Have you seen the memes thread?

and of course i have to plug the Frequently Asked Questions thread.
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ednever

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2012, 08:51:06 pm »
0

Wow!  The best thing I can say about 'mute is that its an ok pickup on t3/t4 when you miss your familiar buy.

I'd be very interested to see your list of 12 cards with lesser utility.

Transmute is great later on in Familiar games, it can combo with Vineyards, sometimes if there are other curse-givers and a neat engine to build it can be useful, or with Dukes or other Alchemy-heavy setups... there are ways to make it work.

Anyway, the cards I'd consider worse than Transmute (mind you, this is not counting Dark Ages, which I've barely played- and also keep in mind that DA might boost the Mute a bit too, with stuff like Ruins -> Duchy for instance):
Thief
Scout
Counting House
Adventurer
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Saboteur
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

...Okay, I guess that's only eleven.  You could arguably throw Mandarin or PStone in for 12, though they're probably a tiny bit better.

Coming to this party super late.

Funny that just today I played a Transmute game: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201210/09/game-20121009-173854-b71c3505.html

A piledrive of Transmute, Herbalists, and Vineyards.

That said, it's near the bottom of my list of bad cards:

From worst on up:
Adventurer
Thief
Scout
Saboteur
Transmute

These others are in a different class:
Counting House
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

I've learned to like CH a lot in the right setting. Against MB it's great. With Warehouse it's a lot of fun. The ability to pull out a province out of your hat in some games is very very useful.

Pirate Ship is one of the most under-rated cards. It's bad, but no where near as bad as people think. If there isn't alt-money on the board and there's a way to play more than one per turn, it can shit someone down - even in two-player.

Talisman has so many uses I can't believe it's listed here. From picking up cheap engine components, to driving down piles and going Gardens. It's a great card on many boards.

Explorer is marginal at best, but it can be great in alt-VP games. It's effectively +$2, gain a silver. (Or +$3 gain a gold with province in hand). Much better than people give it credit for.

Cache is only good in specific conditions - usually when you don't mind copper at all - Trader, Apothecary, Gardens, heavy cursing. But in those situations it can be better than Gold.

Stash is just a silver that lets you stack money. The stacking can often get you a guaranteed province every shuffle - which can matter in the end game. Otherwise there are times when you just want a silver for $5 and this is better.

Treasure Map I don't like at all. But I don't think it's that weak. If you can trash or cycle it's a pretty powerful card. Otherwise it's just all about random luck - which is why I don't like it (rather than the fact it's weak)

Ed
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PSGarak

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #60 on: October 10, 2012, 12:41:34 am »
0

This probably isn't going to sound great at first, since people were just ragging on Adventurer, but what if Scout worked like an Adventurer for VP cards?

This is a bit heretical, because one of the big parts about scout is re-ordering the top of your deck. But, part of the reason this is a big deal is because the "main" function, thinning VP out of your deck, is so lackluster. So instead: get two dead cards out of your deck, with a decent chance of triggering a reshuffle that they will miss. Or, get those Harems into your hand. Also combos well with Baron and Trash for Benefit cards.

I think that this would still make for an overall weak $4 or ok-ish $3, but the extra dependability makes it more feasible to include in a few combos.

Also, Adventurer is underrated. If you have some decent copper trashing, it's better than Gold on average. Its biggest problem is that it's terminal.

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werothegreat

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #61 on: October 10, 2012, 12:44:19 am »
+1

This probably isn't going to sound great at first, since people were just ragging on Adventurer, but what if Scout worked like an Adventurer for VP cards?

You mean Rebuild?
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #62 on: October 10, 2012, 12:54:16 am »
0

This probably isn't going to sound great at first, since people were just ragging on Adventurer, but what if Scout worked like an Adventurer for VP cards?

You mean Rebuild?

Rebuild actually does something with the VP though.


Adventurer-for-VP would not be any better than Scout, I think.  Worse, quite possibly.  Although you guarantee getting two VP into your hand, you are just as likely to skip your good cards.  In the end, I don't think your draw pile is improved on average.
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sandstorm

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #63 on: October 10, 2012, 01:18:40 am »
0

Here is my buff for Scout

+1 Action
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck.
Choose one:
Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand or choose any one revealed action card and place it in your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.


This way it has a choice that fits with the Intrigue theme and the second option allows you to make use of its +1 action.  Its a fairly weak buff but could be situationally powerful in many engines.  It at least removes Scout from the basement tier of Dominion cards.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 01:22:20 am by sandstorm »
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Young Nick

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #64 on: October 10, 2012, 02:33:45 am »
+1

Damn that would make it so good. It would be like playing two Cartographers in a row.

Honestly, Scout sucks, but whatever. If we make Scout better, then people will tirelessly try to make Thief better. If we make Thief better, next thing you know, Witch needs a buff, too.

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WheresMyElephant

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #65 on: October 10, 2012, 09:33:07 am »
0

What about just increasing the search space to 6 cards and.  leaving everything else unchanged? It buffs the filtering ability, keeps the spirit of the card the same, and if you don't find any Victory cards then you can use the deck reordering to improve your next hand a little. And hey if it still sucks, at least it'll miss so many reshuffles that you hardly notice! Maybe some of the basic Scout combos like Great Hall would get too strong here but honestly I find it a bit hard to imagine. I mean they might be dominant but no stronger than a good Menagerie or something.

Damn that would make it so good. It would be like playing two Cartographers in a row.

Honestly, Scout sucks, but whatever. If we make Scout better, then people will tirelessly try to make Thief better. If we make Thief better, next thing you know, Witch needs a buff, too.

I could be wrong but I don't think many people are actually planning to houserule Scout. It's just a fun thought exercise.

That said, man ever since Robz' (admittedly hilarious) DA Scout combo suggestions, the Scout hate train has just gotten ridiculous. You can't open a thread around here and not find someone making fun of Scout. I'm as guilty as anyone and sure it's a weak card and it's fun to hate on, but I'll toss you an upvote just for pointing out explicitly that Scout as printed is not the worst thing in the world.

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 09:39:24 am by WheresMyElephant »
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Robz888

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #66 on: October 10, 2012, 11:03:13 am »
0

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.
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SirPeebles

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #67 on: October 10, 2012, 11:05:25 am »
0

Increase the search space enough and Scout will be almost guaranteed to miss the reshuffle, which would be a boon :)

Actually, that would be interesting.  Perhaps Scout could somehow to aimed more specifically towards gathering together victory cards and then triggering a reshuffle?

+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand and discard the other cards. Shuffle your discard pile into your deck.
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werothegreat

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2012, 11:16:57 am »
+1

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #69 on: October 10, 2012, 11:21:48 am »
+1

I don't think Develop, Fortune Teller, or Shanty Town belong in this conversation. Develop is the closest, but you can still find use for it. I like it to eek out extra VP by Tunneling, like, Potion into Duchy and Tunnel, or something. Fortune Teller is inessential, but it's still an Attack, and often an annoying one. It's a little stronger than people give it credit for.

But Shanty Town. Shanty Town is by no means a "worst card" contender. It's a cheap lab as long as you don't have any terminals, and hey, that happens. It can be nice to open Shanty Town with Potion or Talisman or Quarry. It is a village, and even weak villages can still be pretty good.

Walled Village is the one I have an irrational opposition toward, but I fully recognize I'm just wrong. It's the worst village, but still not a bad card.
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LastFootnote

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #70 on: October 10, 2012, 11:26:23 am »
0

I've actually had several games recently where Shanty Town helped me win. It basically allows you to build an engine without trashing.
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2012, 11:30:45 am »
0

Man I still say there has got to be good stuff you can do with Walled Village that you can't do with Village. Even if it's just little tweaks like tossing an extra terminal into your BM deck (which of course is generally a disastrous road to go down with Village). Has anyone played with this in the simulators?

Edit: Actually it'd probably be good in things like a Workshop-Gardens rush too. It's basically guaranteed to defuse at least one Workshop collision at which point you'll get an extra $4 card to make up for the turn you spent buying WV; and everything after that is gravy. It looks good if you decide to rush Duchies and Duchesses too. And really any other heavy green-and-Copper strategy where your deck is huge; where you say "I want to buy more terminals because proportionally my terminal density is still pretty low; but numerically I have so many terminals that at some point they're going to bunch together and cause trouble."
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 11:48:51 am by WheresMyElephant »
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Eevee

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2012, 11:49:26 am »
+1

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").
That just means you are playing shanty town very wrong.

Biggest problem with scout imo is that it's in direct competition with the stuff it synergizes with. Sure, a silk road deck would love it some scouts, but when are you going to buy them? Early game you want silver, mid-game you already want the silk roads and when the silk roads are gone you already want estates. Maybe scout should be given for free when you buy an estate or something.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2012, 12:09:17 pm »
0

What about just increasing the search space to 6 cards and.  leaving everything else unchanged? It buffs the filtering ability, keeps the spirit of the card the same, and if you don't find any Victory cards then you can use the deck reordering to improve your next hand a little. And hey if it still sucks, at least it'll miss so many reshuffles that you hardly notice! Maybe some of the basic Scout combos like Great Hall would get too strong here but honestly I find it a bit hard to imagine. I mean they might be dominant but no stronger than a good Menagerie or something.
The 6th card is a can of worms. If none of the 6 are Victory cards, you have a chance to manipulate the contents of your next hand. It also gives Scout incredible reordering power for a chain-drawing deck (on par with Cartographer). Five is enough.
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werothegreat

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2012, 12:15:06 pm »
+1

What about just increasing the search space to 6 cards and.  leaving everything else unchanged? It buffs the filtering ability, keeps the spirit of the card the same, and if you don't find any Victory cards then you can use the deck reordering to improve your next hand a little. And hey if it still sucks, at least it'll miss so many reshuffles that you hardly notice! Maybe some of the basic Scout combos like Great Hall would get too strong here but honestly I find it a bit hard to imagine. I mean they might be dominant but no stronger than a good Menagerie or something.
The 6th card is a can of worms. If none of the 6 are Victory cards, you have a chance to manipulate the contents of your next hand. It also gives Scout incredible reordering power for a chain-drawing deck (on par with Cartographer). Five is enough.

Not just your next hand.  It gives the potential to play with the hand AFTER that.  Which is insane, and why cards that seek through your deck for a variable amount of cards always discard, rather than put back on your deck.
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2012, 12:56:42 pm »
0

What about just increasing the search space to 6 cards and.  leaving everything else unchanged? It buffs the filtering ability.  ty, keeps the spirit of the card the same, and if you don't find any Victory cards then you can use the deck reordering to improve your next hand a little. And hey if it still sucks, at least it'll miss so many reshuffles that you hardly notice! Maybe some of the basic Scout combos like Great Hall would get too strong here but honestly I find it a bit hard to imagine. I mean they might be dominant but no stronger than a good Menagerie or something.
The 6th card is a can of worms. If none of the 6 are Victory cards, you have a chance to manipulate the contents of your next hand. It also gives Scout incredible reordering power for a chain-drawing deck (on par with Cartographer). Five is enough.

Not just your next hand.  It gives the potential to play with the hand AFTER that.  Which is insane, and why cards that seek through your deck for a variable amount of cards always discard, rather than put back on your deck.

Of course it's very possible you guys are right, but I'm not sure it's this absolute. These abilities still come at the cost of hurting your current hand, a drawback which no longer has any compensation whatsoever in terms of filtering or immediate card draw. And your ability to manipulate the hand after next is quite limited: you get to hand one card over from the previous hand. Nothing you couldn't do with Courtyard; you're just doing it a turn in advance, which confers no special benefit. To the contrary, you'd rather improve the current and next hand than improve the next hand and the hand after that, because earlier hands are more critical! 

The only time I can see the "turn after next" thing being really beneficial is that if you draw your SuperScout right after a reshuffle, you're almost guaranteed to put together a 2-card combo of your choice either next turn or the turn after, as long as you didn't draw either of the combo pieces along with the Scout. But hey, you can get the same from Scheme even if you DID draw one of the combo pieces early, and without having to trash your Estates first, and without the handsize-reducing effect.  So I don't see this as overpowered at all.

But I can see where it might potentially be too strong in combination with cards that like to know what's coming up next. Anyway I'd be surprised if Donald X. didn't see Scout as weak and try some of this stuff out, so I'll defer.

Edit: I would however really like to see a card that can rearrange 6 or 7 cards deep,  in order to counter attacks that look at the top of your deck. That would be fun, even if it had to cost $5 or something.  But then maybe you'd have too much AP, and in a way it's basically just like a Secret Chamber that you have to play one turn earlier (and that doesn't suck).
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 01:13:32 pm by WheresMyElephant »
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popsofctown

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2012, 01:10:31 pm »
0

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I've come to realize that Scout synergizes with Scrying Pool, but I still haven't found anything that goes with Adventurer.
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2012, 01:21:56 pm »
+1

What about Adventurer/Counterfeit? They both love trashing Copper and, later, even trashing Silver. You can even prioritize Adventurer over Gold early, supposing you're content to keep doing this Counterfeit+Copper thing for a while: it'll help you cycle and hit the combo more, so the Adventurer doesn't conflict with Gold as much as usual.

And hey if you wind up a little low on Treasure later (always the Achilles' heel of Counterfeit) it's okay: Adventurer will still scrounge up your last Gold or two. As a bonus, you have +Buy so that whenever your Adventurer gives +$5 it isn't wasted.

Full disclosure: I habitually overestimate Counterfeit. But this does look fun: they seem to cover each other's weaknesses in a pretty way.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 01:56:14 pm by WheresMyElephant »
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brokoli

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2012, 02:00:23 pm »
0

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").

Fortune teller is absolutely not a bad card. Far from the top 5 worst cards, probably close to the second half of the best $3 card. I stand by that. (And I agree with Robz on shanty town).
Personally, the only card I REALLY do not understand is navigator. Navigator sucks. Navigator is the worst.
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Titandrake

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2012, 02:24:34 pm »
+1

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").

Fortune teller is absolutely not a bad card. Far from the top 5 worst cards, probably close to the second half of the best $3 card. I stand by that. (And I agree with Robz on shanty town).
Personally, the only card I REALLY do not understand is navigator. Navigator sucks. Navigator is the worst.

Well in theory, Navigator is useful in engines to make sure you keep drawing engine pieces thanks to reordering. In practice, I tend to just buy more engine pieces.

It's an okay terminal silver for Hunting Party, helps you ensure you get $5 hands, but that's more a show of how good Hunting Party is.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #80 on: October 10, 2012, 02:31:07 pm »
+1

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").

Fortune teller is absolutely not a bad card. Far from the top 5 worst cards, probably close to the second half of the best $3 card. I stand by that. (And I agree with Robz on shanty town).
Personally, the only card I REALLY do not understand is navigator. Navigator sucks. Navigator is the worst.

Well in theory, Navigator is useful in engines to make sure you keep drawing engine pieces thanks to reordering. In practice, I tend to just buy more engine pieces.

It's an okay terminal silver for Hunting Party, helps you ensure you get $5 hands, but that's more a show of how good Hunting Party is.

Navigator can be a bad terminal silver - because it can cause a reshuffle when all of your hunting parties are in play.
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SirPeebles

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #81 on: October 10, 2012, 02:33:58 pm »
0

The only time I've ever made use of Navigator has been to enable tunnels.
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werothegreat

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2012, 02:37:36 pm »
+3

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").

Fortune teller is absolutely not a bad card. Far from the top 5 worst cards, probably close to the second half of the best $3 card. I stand by that. (And I agree with Robz on shanty town).
Personally, the only card I REALLY do not understand is navigator. Navigator sucks. Navigator is the worst.

Well in theory, Navigator is useful in engines to make sure you keep drawing engine pieces thanks to reordering. In practice, I tend to just buy more engine pieces.

It's an okay terminal silver for Hunting Party, helps you ensure you get $5 hands, but that's more a show of how good Hunting Party is.

Navigator can be a bad terminal silver - because it can cause a reshuffle when all of your hunting parties are in play.

I've also never liked Navigator.  Unless you have Curses and Ruins clogging up your deck (which they wouldn't be if you had spent $4 on Sea Hag/Marauder instead of Navigator), all you're doing is looking at your next hand.  Really, Cartographer solved the problems with both Navigator and Scout.  Scout: "Ok, that's what's next, but now I don't have a card drawn, or really any resource added..." Navigator: "Well, there are two Curses there, but also two Laboratories... if only I could just selectively discard..."  Cartographer: "Guys, I got this."
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popsofctown

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #83 on: October 10, 2012, 03:43:38 pm »
0

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").

Fortune teller is absolutely not a bad card. Far from the top 5 worst cards, probably close to the second half of the best $3 card. I stand by that. (And I agree with Robz on shanty town).
Personally, the only card I REALLY do not understand is navigator. Navigator sucks. Navigator is the worst.

Well in theory, Navigator is useful in engines to make sure you keep drawing engine pieces thanks to reordering. In practice, I tend to just buy more engine pieces.

It's an okay terminal silver for Hunting Party, helps you ensure you get $5 hands, but that's more a show of how good Hunting Party is.

Navigator can be a bad terminal silver - because it can cause a reshuffle when all of your hunting parties are in play.
I don't see why it is necessarily going to make Hunting Parties miss reshuffles more often than it triggers a reshuffle when Hunting Parties are in the discard and you want to see them sooner.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #84 on: October 10, 2012, 04:05:17 pm »
0

I don't see why it is necessarily going to make Hunting Parties miss reshuffles more often than it triggers a reshuffle when Hunting Parties are in the discard and you want to see them sooner.

Usually when you play an HP stack you have enough that you get all your unique cards (Copper, Silver, Gold, terminal Silver) and each subsequent HP will only find other HPs or nothing at all.  You end the chain with nothing in the draw pile because your last HP looks through your deck and finds nothing else unique to pick up.  If you end the chain with Navigator or anything that causes a reshuffle at that point, you just lost all your HPs.
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Young Nick

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #85 on: October 10, 2012, 05:05:03 pm »
0

Just recently I played a game that used Adventurer quite well. It's partner in crime was Spice Merchant. Trash Coppers, buy Gold and Silver, buy Adventurer. It was surprisingly fast, but unfortunately I didn't grab the log.

It's only problem is that I think Venture does the same thing but is better for it's price.

As for Navigator, I think you guys don't realize when it is good. I like to open with it and the first 2-3 times I use it I discard my hand unless I am guaranteed $6 next turn. This extra cycling is more helpful than most would assume.

Scout is still worse than both of those. Thief is, too. Secret Chamber might also be. It's harder to tell with the $5+ cards.
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KingsSkort

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #86 on: October 10, 2012, 05:31:13 pm »
0

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").

Fortune teller is absolutely not a bad card. Far from the top 5 worst cards, probably close to the second half of the best $3 card. I stand by that. (And I agree with Robz on shanty town).
Personally, the only card I REALLY do not understand is navigator. Navigator sucks. Navigator is the worst.

Well in theory, Navigator is useful in engines to make sure you keep drawing engine pieces thanks to reordering. In practice, I tend to just buy more engine pieces.

It's an okay terminal silver for Hunting Party, helps you ensure you get $5 hands, but that's more a show of how good Hunting Party is.

Navigator can be a bad terminal silver - because it can cause a reshuffle when all of your hunting parties are in play.

I've also never liked Navigator.  Unless you have Curses and Ruins clogging up your deck (which they wouldn't be if you had spent $4 on Sea Hag/Marauder instead of Navigator), all you're doing is looking at your next hand.  Really, Cartographer solved the problems with both Navigator and Scout.  Scout: "Ok, that's what's next, but now I don't have a card drawn, or really any resource added..." Navigator: "Well, there are two Curses there, but also two Laboratories... if only I could just selectively discard..."  Cartographer: "Guys, I got this."

I had a theory for a while that Navigator BM is actually good, because it helps you hit gold early on and provinces later. (I think geronimoo's simulator at least misplays it by discarding early gold hands.) I don't believe this passionately any more, but I will say that it's slightly underrated as a BM card.
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chwhite

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #87 on: October 10, 2012, 06:51:39 pm »
0

Navigator's obviously not a great card, but it's better than most people give it credit for.  Beyond the obvious Tunnel synergy, I often pick one up in low-or-no-trash engine games (especially ones where all the parts are at $5) for an early tempo boost.  It's a hard card to develop good play rules for, you just kinda need to see how much competition it has.

And of course it plays well with cards that benefit from lookahead, like Scrying Pool and Wishing Well.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 06:55:00 pm by chwhite »
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popsofctown

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #88 on: October 10, 2012, 08:08:13 pm »
+1

In no trash cursy games it can be so good.  Discard an Estate, 2 Curses and 2 coppers off the top of your deck and you just played a tactician.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #89 on: October 10, 2012, 09:07:59 pm »
+1

Navigator is a low utility card, it doesn't need to cost $4... but it's not so so bad. Terminal silvers with even marginal benefits are more useful than people give them credit for, methinks.
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popsofctown

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #90 on: October 10, 2012, 09:30:46 pm »
0

the problem is there's always at least a Harvest on the board promising to make better use of Actions
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brokoli

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #91 on: October 11, 2012, 04:40:56 am »
0

As for Navigator, I think you guys don't realize when it is good. I like to open with it and the first 2-3 times I use it I discard my hand unless I am guaranteed $6 next turn. This extra cycling is more helpful than most would assume.

In this case, I prefer chancellor ! The extra cycling is much stronger...
Because navigator is always a dilemna with no real responses. You don't know what to do with your next hand, and often navigator is the last action of your turn (reordering is not helpful).
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greatexpectations

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #92 on: October 11, 2012, 08:33:28 am »
0

Just recently I played a game that used Adventurer quite well.

same here. in that game i used mint and island to get to a point where my deck only had 5-6 silver. adventurer became a terminal $4 for me.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #93 on: October 11, 2012, 08:53:30 am »
+1

Personally, I'd say that a better long term fix to Scout and Counting House would be to add cards that work well with them.

So for Scout, an expansion full of new functional victory cards: Maybe some cards like:

Really Great Hall
$4 Action/Victory card
+1 action for each action you have played this turn, including this one.
+1 card for each victory card you have played this turn, including this one.
Worth 1 VP

Land Tax
$4 Treasure/Victory card
Reveal your hand: +$1 for each Victory card in your hand.
Worth 0 VP

For Counting House, some ways of rapidly sifting coppers into your discard, or placing it in the deck optimally:

Forward Planning
$3 action
Reveal a card from your hand, put it anywhere in your deck.

Scheming Chancellor Tactician Bloke
$7 action
Discard your deck.
During cleanup choose up to five cards you played this turn, put them on your deck.

Desperation Funding
$2 action
+1 action
Discard any number of cards, gain that many coppers.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 08:57:19 am by Asklepios »
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werothegreat

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #94 on: October 11, 2012, 08:56:39 am »
+1

Personally, I'd say that a better long term fix to Scout and Counting House would be to add cards that work well with them.

So for Scout, an expansion full of new functional victory cards: Maybe some cards like:

Really Great Hall
$4 Action/Victory card
+1 action for each action you have played this turn, including this one.
+1 card for each victory card you have played this turn, including this one.
Worth 1 VP

Land Tax
$4 Treasure/Victory card
Reveal your hand: +$1 for each Victory card in your hand.
Worth 0 VP

For Counting House, some ways of rapidly sifting coppers into your discard, or placing it in the deck optimally:

Forward Planning
$3 action
Reveal a card from your hand, put it anywhere in your deck.

Desperation Funding
$2 action
+1 action
Discard any number of cards, gain that many coppers.

The only one of these I sort of like is Land Tax.  Really Great Hall is disgustingly overpowered, Forward Planning is just stupid (sorry), but Desperation Funding could be... interesting.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #95 on: October 11, 2012, 09:34:29 am »
0

I designed a "fan expansion" with a bunch of cards with the "Bottom of the Deck" gimmick. It was mostly variants of existing cards (eg a bottom of the deck "Ghost Ship", bottom of the deck "Courtyard") with a few unique cards like a sinking treasure (called Pearl :P) and a card that gave you a benefit when you correctly guessed the bottom card of someone's deck (encouraging faster shuffling). Many of those cards would combo well with Counting House (and of course, Pearl Diver, another card that may need improvement).

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #96 on: October 11, 2012, 10:03:10 am »
0

Navigator's obviously not a great card, but it's better than most people give it credit for.  Beyond the obvious Tunnel synergy, I often pick one up in low-or-no-trash engine games (especially ones where all the parts are at $5) for an early tempo boost.  It's a hard card to develop good play rules for, you just kinda need to see how much competition it has.

And of course it plays well with cards that benefit from lookahead, like Scrying Pool and Wishing Well.

This may say more about King's Court than Navigator, but I played a pretty good game once based around the KC-Navigator combo—play KC-Navigator, and you have three chances to look at your next hand and discard it if it doesn't contain KC, Navigator, and Silver.
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PSGarak

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #97 on: October 11, 2012, 11:32:40 am »
0

What if Scout was a VP-Action hybrid, so it could draw itself? And also worth a point, so it could be a tiebreaker in close games.
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KingsSkort

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #98 on: October 11, 2012, 12:08:58 pm »
0

Navigator's obviously not a great card, but it's better than most people give it credit for.  Beyond the obvious Tunnel synergy, I often pick one up in low-or-no-trash engine games (especially ones where all the parts are at $5) for an early tempo boost.  It's a hard card to develop good play rules for, you just kinda need to see how much competition it has.

And of course it plays well with cards that benefit from lookahead, like Scrying Pool and Wishing Well.

This may say more about King's Court than Navigator, but I played a pretty good game once based around the KC-Navigator combo—play KC-Navigator, and you have three chances to look at your next hand and discard it if it doesn't contain KC, Navigator, and Silver.

Navigator is stronger when you can accurately evaluate your next hand. If you have an engine deck (or really, anything with draw), you have uncertainty. Is Lab + $5 a province? You can't tell.
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aaron0013

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #99 on: October 13, 2012, 10:21:06 am »
+1

WHARF: TERRIBLE CARD.  As we all know there are only a few cases where this card shines. The only way I have found to make it work is to use Scout to pick up loose victory cards, Shanty Town for more actions, Counterfeit to trash the coppers, and Adventurer to find the gold.

I think Wharf could be made better by giving it a Looter ability as well as gaining Spoils, Madmen, and Prizes.

Or would that make it too powerful?
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SirPeebles

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #100 on: October 13, 2012, 12:14:07 pm »
0

I agree on Wharf.  What's up with all the love?  I buy as many as I can, but they just keep colliding.  And even when I do draw all 7 Coppers, what am I supposed to do?  I guess Donald's thought is that I'll use the spare buy to pick up both a Duchy and an Estate, which is what I usually do.  But man, you'd think he'd have the foresight to give it a +$1 so I could afford a damn Province.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #101 on: October 13, 2012, 02:14:57 pm »
0

Scheming Chancellor Tactician Bloke
$7 action
Discard your deck.
During cleanup choose up to five cards you played this turn, put them on your deck.

Cards with things like "discard your deck" just become stupidly powerful with Tunnel. Not that this card isn't crazy powerful anyway.
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Grujah

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #102 on: October 13, 2012, 02:39:44 pm »
0

Or have Counting House choose between all the Coppers in your draw deck or all the Coppers in your discard, but not both.

Ooo... neat!
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RD

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #103 on: October 13, 2012, 02:46:32 pm »
0

Scheming Chancellor Tactician Bloke
$7 action
Discard your deck.
During cleanup choose up to five cards you played this turn, put them on your deck.

Cards with things like "discard your deck" just become stupidly powerful with Tunnel. Not that this card isn't crazy powerful anyway.

I assume he meant to use the Chancellor wording, which eliminates the ability to trigger Tunnel. But it doesn't much matter; I think it was just intended as an example, not a serious card suggestion?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 02:47:47 pm by RD »
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popsofctown

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2012, 04:01:48 pm »
0

I really like the suggestion of adding 1VP to Scout.  That seems like a really fun card.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2013, 12:32:34 pm »
0

I'm resurrecting this topic because I think I'd like to give Scout a buff in my casual play and I'd love to find some sort of consensus about what makes sense. I don't think it needs to be errata'd or anything but I'd like to give it more utility/uniqueness when I'm playing with friends. The ideas I like best so far are:

I really like the suggestion of adding 1VP to Scout.  That seems like a really fun card.

Self-synergistic and worth a point. Ironworks-Scout could potentially be a thing. I don't think this is too strong.

I think a +1 Card would make all the difference.  This would put it on par with Apothecary, which is only slightly more expensive with an opportunity cost, which is fine, because in most cases Coppers will be much more valuable to you than Estates.

I think making it a cantrip is solid. Feels a lot like Cartographer but I don't own Hinterlands yet so no biggie.

Finally, I think maybe this was suggested somewhere but I don't want to find the quote, how about giving it +1 Card after the re-ordering? This is quite a LOT stronger than just making it a cantrip, but it's also a pretty unique effect. It's like a slightly stronger Sage, which seems reasonable at $4. I don't think it's too strong but I bet it'd be at least upper half of $4 cards.
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LastFootnote

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2013, 12:52:47 pm »
0

Giving it +1 Card would make it a solid $5 card. I'm guessing that the 1 VP idea would also be too powerful.

Once again, I strongly suggest giving it +$1.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2013, 01:03:17 pm »
0

I'd suggest a duchess like effect, "every time you buy an estate, you may gain a scout."
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Dsell

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2013, 01:06:10 pm »
0

Giving it +1 Card would make it a solid $5 card. I'm guessing that the 1 VP idea would also be too powerful.

Once again, I strongly suggest giving it +$1.

+1 Card is too much? Huh, it still seems quite a bit worse than Cartographer except in Intrigue-heavy games or games where you want a large handsize. I could see +1 Card after everything being a $5 card. But I am not gonna change the cost in a casual game, that's too much to think about. +$1 probably works, but it feels really inelegant. :-\
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #109 on: June 12, 2013, 01:07:30 pm »
0

Giving it +1 Card would make it a solid $5 card. I'm guessing that the 1 VP idea would also be too powerful.

Once again, I strongly suggest giving it +$1.

+1 Card is too much? Huh, it still seems quite a bit worse than Cartographer except in Intrigue-heavy games or games where you want a large handsize. I could see +1 Card after everything being a $5 card. But I am not gonna change the cost in a casual game, that's too much to think about. +$1 probably works, but it feels really inelegant. :-\

Inelegant? How? It's like a Peddler that only draws Victory cards, but could draw multiple Victory cards.

"Games where you want a large handsize" are the norm, I think. With any sifter or trash-for-benefit, you want that large handsize.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 01:08:38 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #110 on: June 12, 2013, 01:18:18 pm »
0

Giving it +1 Card would make it a solid $5 card. I'm guessing that the 1 VP idea would also be too powerful.

Once again, I strongly suggest giving it +$1.

+1 Card is too much? Huh, it still seems quite a bit worse than Cartographer except in Intrigue-heavy games or games where you want a large handsize. I could see +1 Card after everything being a $5 card. But I am not gonna change the cost in a casual game, that's too much to think about. +$1 probably works, but it feels really inelegant. :-\

Inelegant? How? It's like a Peddler that only draws Victory cards, but could draw multiple Victory cards.

"Games where you want a large handsize" are the norm, I think. With any sifter or trash-for-benefit, you want that large handsize.

When you put it that way, it sounds better. I guess I was just thinking that the +$1 came from nowhere and felt like a tack-on. The other solutions help it self-synergize or give it a unique-ish ability. But I am hoping for balance here. What makes you think that making it worth 1 VP is too strong? An Estate-with-a-bonus. It's like a better great hall that sometimes isn't.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #111 on: June 12, 2013, 01:23:31 pm »
0

What makes you think that making it worth 1 VP is too strong? An Estate-with-a-bonus. It's like a better great hall that sometimes isn't.

Well, perhaps I'm off base. It's hard to say how that would play. I think it would self-synergize a little too well. It also makes Great Hall less unique, and it's already a pretty marginal card. Why play Scount/Great Hall when you can play Scout/Scout?

EDIT: Well, OK, Great Hall can draw non-Victory cards, which is pretty key. Still, they'd be awfully similar.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 01:31:11 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #112 on: June 12, 2013, 01:24:24 pm »
0

Make it terminal
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #113 on: June 12, 2013, 01:42:16 pm »
0

Giving it +1 Card would make it a solid $5 card. I'm guessing that the 1 VP idea would also be too powerful.

Once again, I strongly suggest giving it +$1.
Yep, and the +1 card / 1 VP versions change the card too much. So, +1 for +$1.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #114 on: June 12, 2013, 01:51:03 pm »
0

What makes you think that making it worth 1 VP is too strong? An Estate-with-a-bonus. It's like a better great hall that sometimes isn't.

Well, perhaps I'm off base. It's hard to say how that would play. I think it would self-synergize a little too well. It also makes Great Hall less unique, and it's already a pretty marginal card. Why play Scount/Great Hall when you can play Scout/Scout?

EDIT: Well, OK, Great Hall can draw non-Victory cards, which is pretty key. Still, they'd be awfully similar.

They are indeed similar, and that's a bit of a drawback. But I am ok with boosting Scout's power a lot. It's cool with me if a Scout-centric strategy is viable and even strong as long as it's not dominant-on-every-board strong. I think by adding 1 VP to Scout, you'd still need a lot of support (Ironworks comes to mind) to make it dominant.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #115 on: June 12, 2013, 02:01:08 pm »
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I don't think scout drawing itself makes it better, on average. I mean, if you are playing multiple scouts on the same turn, you are probably seeing mostly the same cards (or at least partially the same cards), and this weakens the efficacy of later scouts.

Scout with a VP would be much more playable, but still bad.

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #116 on: June 12, 2013, 02:06:54 pm »
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I think it would be more interesting to find some non-vanilla perk rather than tack on +$1.  What if Scout had a Highway effect, lowering the cost of Duchies while in play?  Scouts would then help one construct the green dense decks in which they thrive.  This might not be enough of a buff though.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #117 on: June 12, 2013, 02:07:16 pm »
0

I don't think scout drawing itself makes it better, on average. I mean, if you are playing multiple scouts on the same turn, you are probably seeing mostly the same cards (or at least partially the same cards), and this weakens the efficacy of later scouts.

Scout with a VP would be much more playable, but still bad.

I agree that Scout as a VP card worth 0 VP is not enough, and that 1 VP makes it more viable. What do you think of the other suggestions, or do you have any suggestions of your own to bring Scout into its own?
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #118 on: June 12, 2013, 02:15:45 pm »
0

I actually think Scout is best if left exactly as is (and not because I secretly think it's the best card in the game!). Yeah, it's incredibly, incredibly weak, but that almost makes it more rewarding when you do end up buying one every once in 50 100 200 (?) games.

(On a side note: I would be tempted to just delete Adventurer entirely, though. It's terrible at $6, and fine, but too similar to Venture, at $5.)
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #119 on: June 12, 2013, 02:17:32 pm »
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What if Scout gave some bonus per Victory card drawn?  Maybe +1$ per card drawn?  Or +1 action per card drawn?

Perhaps this isn't so great, since it leaves Scout just as weak when it whiffs, while turning into a juggernaut when it already would have proved useful.  But the point is that a buff along these lines might encourage a rather new kind of deck revolving around Scout and green flooding, rather than leaving Scout as just a tolerable support card.

Alternatively, you could add a clause "If at least one Victory was revealed, ...".  Maybe you get to trash one card, or you get +$2, or you may discard your hand and draw four new cards, or something.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #120 on: June 12, 2013, 02:19:36 pm »
0

I actually think Scout is best if left exactly as is (and not because I secretly think it's the best card in the game!). Yeah, it's incredibly, incredibly weak, but that almost makes it more rewarding when you do end up buying one every once in 50 100 200 (?) games.

(On a side note: I would be tempted to just delete Adventurer entirely, though. It's terrible at $6, and fine, but too similar to Venture, at $5.)

This is the other one I want to edit for my gaming group, but I think I simply want to give it a +Buy. I couldn't think of anything so simple or satisfying for Scout that would definitely be balanced though.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #121 on: June 12, 2013, 02:21:53 pm »
0

What if Scout gave some bonus per Victory card drawn?  Maybe +1$ per card drawn?  Or +1 action per card drawn?

Perhaps this isn't so great, since it leaves Scout just as weak when it whiffs, while turning into a juggernaut when it already would have proved useful.  But the point is that a buff along these lines might encourage a rather new kind of deck revolving around Scout and green flooding, rather than leaving Scout as just a tolerable support card.

Alternatively, you could add a clause "If at least one Victory was revealed, ...".  Maybe you get to trash one card, or you get +$2, or you may discard your hand and draw four new cards, or something.
Or give it a bonus if no victory cards were revealed. Like, if no victory cards were revealed this way, +$2
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #122 on: June 12, 2013, 02:24:12 pm »
+1

Why not just make it +1 card if you did not draw any cards in the previous step?  That way you only get to choose one of your next four cards if none of them are Victory cards.  Similar to Cartographer, but only 4 cards instead of five and you can't discard copper, curses or bad actions for your next turn.  But you do get to draw one card after reordering in the case that you missed Victory cards.

I guess this would make the case when Scout misses better than when it hits, but oh well. 
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #123 on: June 12, 2013, 02:27:41 pm »
0

Why not just make it +1 card if you did not draw any cards in the previous step?  That way you only get to choose one of your next four cards if none of them are Victory cards.  Similar to Cartographer, but only 4 cards instead of five and you can't discard copper, curses or bad actions for your next turn.  But you do get to draw one card after reordering in the case that you missed Victory cards.

I guess this would make the case when Scout misses better than when it hits, but oh well.

I actually like this a lot. It becomes pretty strong in an engine, then weaker when it starts greening. And it still has all of its old "utility" for the times when Scout does shine.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #124 on: June 12, 2013, 02:38:51 pm »
0

Why not just make it +1 card if you did not draw any cards in the previous step?  That way you only get to choose one of your next four cards if none of them are Victory cards.  Similar to Cartographer, but only 4 cards instead of five and you can't discard copper, curses or bad actions for your next turn.  But you do get to draw one card after reordering in the case that you missed Victory cards.

I guess this would make the case when Scout misses better than when it hits, but oh well.

I suppose the main objection I have to this is that it tends to be better in the absence of green, which is a complete role reversal for Scout.  I feel that a tweak of Scout ought to enhance the idea of successfully navigating through a densely green deck.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #125 on: June 12, 2013, 02:41:09 pm »
+2

I don't think scout drawing itself makes it better, on average. I mean, if you are playing multiple scouts on the same turn, you are probably seeing mostly the same cards (or at least partially the same cards), and this weakens the efficacy of later scouts.

Scout with a VP would be much more playable, but still bad.

I agree that Scout as a VP card worth 0 VP is not enough, and that 1 VP makes it more viable. What do you think of the other suggestions, or do you have any suggestions of your own to bring Scout into its own?
I wouldn't. I mean, maybe I would kill it to make room for another card, but I wouldn't try to salvage it. (I would indeed Salvager it in many cases though ;))

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #126 on: June 12, 2013, 02:41:51 pm »
0

Why not just make it +1 card if you did not draw any cards in the previous step?  That way you only get to choose one of your next four cards if none of them are Victory cards.  Similar to Cartographer, but only 4 cards instead of five and you can't discard copper, curses or bad actions for your next turn.  But you do get to draw one card after reordering in the case that you missed Victory cards.

I guess this would make the case when Scout misses better than when it hits, but oh well.

I suppose the main objection I have to this is that it tends to be better in the absence of green, which is a complete role reversal for Scout.  I feel that a tweak of Scout ought to enhance the idea of successfully navigating through a densely green deck.

I do agree with this. But in the absence of a consensus on that front, this does give it a very interesting alternate use. Still, I'd like to try to find something that actually makes it good at what it's supposed to do.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #127 on: June 12, 2013, 02:57:53 pm »
+1

I think it would be more interesting to find some non-vanilla perk rather than tack on +$1.  What if Scout had a Highway effect, lowering the cost of Duchies while in play?  Scouts would then help one construct the green dense decks in which they thrive.  This might not be enough of a buff though.

Generally, I agree that interesting effects are better than vanilla effects, but Scout already has a pretty unique effect: pulling a bunch of Victory cards into your hand and re-ordering the rest. I think tacking +$1 onto it is just the cleanest way to bring it up to a reasonable $4 card without changing how it plays.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #128 on: June 12, 2013, 08:33:49 pm »
0

Ok, so we've discussed adding +$ and +cards. Let's cover +actions and +buy, for symmetry's sake.

+Actions: Oddly enough, the overall strategic impact is kind of thematic. Compared to a regular village, it makes your Smithies more powerful by clearing out the chafe it would have drawn. Probably too similar to Wandering Minstrel, but interesting to compare: Wandering Minstrel favors an engine based around terminal actions, Village Scout provides a boost to engines that draw treasures. Or something.

+Buy: I'd say this works out ok. Buy is not usually very powerful, but it is also not very common, and being non-terminal +buy (with minor benefit) would give scout a use outside of its main identity. More importantly, most decks that end up VP-dense also want lots of +buy support. Adding +buy would make scout a decent support card for a Duchy or Gardens strategy, but probably not enough to enable it on its own.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #129 on: June 12, 2013, 09:32:08 pm »
0

I think, if we want to make scout occasionally viable while retaining its positive synergy with green cards maybe add a secret chamber for green cards effect. 'You may discard any number of victory cards' +1$ per card discarded.'

Actually that's probably a touch too strong since in draw your deck engines this would basically be a nonterminal $4. Maybe make it a choose one (reveal and draw green or discard green for $).
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 09:40:34 pm by jonts26 »
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #130 on: June 12, 2013, 10:12:57 pm »
+3

What if you just give it more reach and control?

Scout
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal up to 5 cards from the top of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

The first change is subtle -- it reveals up to X cards.  That gives you a way to control the reshuffle.  The second change is just increasing X from 4 to whatever feels appropriate.  I put 5 in the above example, but it could be more.  This could get into a lot of AP though.

The main idea is to make Scout better at what it does, which is pulling green out of future hands.  A different buff could make the effect more consistent:

Scout
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 4 non-Victory cards.  Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand.  Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

This version guarantees that the next hand will have no more than 1 Victory card in it.  There is one super power combo though -- this is "draw your deck" if you have no more than 3 non-Victory cards.  Buy Harems, trash Coppers.  Still, it would be hard to create such a deck, and it does require Harem, Scout and a trasher.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #131 on: June 13, 2013, 12:32:07 am »
0

The main idea is to make Scout better at what it does, which is pulling green out of future hands.  A different buff could make the effect more consistent:

Scout
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 4 non-Victory cards.  Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand.  Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

This version guarantees that the next hand will have no more than 1 Victory card in it.  There is one super power combo though -- this is "draw your deck" if you have no more than 3 non-Victory cards.  Buy Harems, trash Coppers.  Still, it would be hard to create such a deck, and it does require Harem, Scout and a trasher.

I buy two King's Courts, three Bridges, a New Scout, revealing every card in my deck.  I put the two King's Courts and three Bridges on top.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #132 on: June 13, 2013, 12:37:14 am »
0

The main idea is to make Scout better at what it does, which is pulling green out of future hands.  A different buff could make the effect more consistent:

Scout
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 4 non-Victory cards.  Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand.  Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

This version guarantees that the next hand will have no more than 1 Victory card in it.  There is one super power combo though -- this is "draw your deck" if you have no more than 3 non-Victory cards.  Buy Harems, trash Coppers.  Still, it would be hard to create such a deck, and it does require Harem, Scout and a trasher.

I buy two King's Courts, three Bridges, a New Scout, revealing every card in my deck.  I put the two King's Courts and three Bridges on top.

Again, requires trashing away all non-Victory cards, and you still have to play the Scout without any of the combo cards in hand.  And it only works up to 4 cards, in this case.  Pretty sure Inn would be much better to set up the KC-Bridge megaturn.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #133 on: June 13, 2013, 12:43:50 am »
0

The main idea is to make Scout better at what it does, which is pulling green out of future hands.  A different buff could make the effect more consistent:

Scout
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 4 non-Victory cards.  Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand.  Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

This version guarantees that the next hand will have no more than 1 Victory card in it.  There is one super power combo though -- this is "draw your deck" if you have no more than 3 non-Victory cards.  Buy Harems, trash Coppers.  Still, it would be hard to create such a deck, and it does require Harem, Scout and a trasher.

I buy two King's Courts, three Bridges, a New Scout, revealing every card in my deck.  I put the two King's Courts and three Bridges on top.

Again, requires trashing away all non-Victory cards, and you still have to play the Scout without any of the combo cards in hand.  And it only works up to 4 cards, in this case.  Pretty sure Inn would be much better to set up the KC-Bridge megaturn.

You don't need to trash all non-Victory cards, with three estates you still aren't

OOOHHHHHH I thought it said until you reveal 4 victory cards, put them in hand, and discard the rest :P
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #134 on: June 13, 2013, 05:56:51 am »
0


Scout
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 4 non-Victory cards.  Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand.  Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

This version guarantees that the next hand will have no more than 1 Victory card in it.  There is one super power combo though -- this is "draw your deck" if you have no more than 3 non-Victory cards.  Buy Harems, trash Coppers.  Still, it would be hard to create such a deck, and it does require Harem, Scout and a trasher.

You could make it "reveal 4 actions or treasures" to make it less kingdom dependent and a good response to Curses.
It seems better than cartographer, but that card is a lot more flexible.  I think this is the best fix I've seen (the 1VP, +$1 variants are nice cards, but self comboing isn't scout's game).
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #135 on: June 13, 2013, 01:16:43 pm »
0

Advisor.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #136 on: June 20, 2013, 08:12:28 am »
0

Like Donald suggested in his recent Secret History, Scout could work as it is as an Action-Victory card with value 1-2 VP probably. It would suddenly find other Scouts as well, which makes you want even MORE Scouts. Gasp.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #137 on: June 20, 2013, 12:55:36 pm »
0

Action Victory card worth 1 VP would be perfect IMO. 

It would be sometimes better than Great Hall, sometimes not.


Chaining loads of them would not be a game breaking strategy.  In the perfect ultimate smoothest scout deck they would be 1 VP Islands with 1 extra carry capacity, that is, each one making itself invisible and making two other green cards invisible.  That's gonna be o.k.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #138 on: June 21, 2013, 12:29:28 pm »
0

I like it, but what if you're thinking too small? The way to buff Transmute is not to give it an on-gain +1 Buy, but to eliminate Herbalist and fuse it with Potion.

Elixir. Cost: $4. Type: Treasure.
"Choose one: Put this or any Treasure from your hand on top of your deck. Or: +1 Potion, +1 Buy.
-----------------------
Setup: Use this supply in place of Potion."

No more mana screw. Now all of Alchemy is fixed, not just Transmute. You're welcome. ;)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 12:56:34 pm by Matt_Arnold »
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #139 on: June 21, 2013, 01:00:51 pm »
0

I like it, but what if you're thinking too small? The way to buff Transmute is not to give it an on-gain +1 Buy, but to eliminate Herbalist and fuse it with Potion.

Elixir. Cost: $4. Type: Treasure.
"Choose one: Put this or any Treasure from your hand on top of your deck. Or: +1 Potion, +1 Buy.
-----------------------
Setup: Use this supply in place of Potion."

No more mana screw. Now all of Alchemy is fixed, not just Transmute. You're welcome. ;)

Suddenly, Alchemist stacks are permanent (Minion aside).
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #140 on: June 21, 2013, 01:05:06 pm »
0

I like it, but what if you're thinking too small? The way to buff Transmute is not to give it an on-gain +1 Buy, but to eliminate Herbalist and fuse it with Potion.

Elixir. Cost: $4. Type: Treasure.
"Choose one: Put this or any Treasure from your hand on top of your deck. Or: +1 Potion, +1 Buy.
-----------------------
Setup: Use this supply in place of Potion."

No more mana screw. Now all of Alchemy is fixed, not just Transmute. You're welcome. ;)

Suddenly, Alchemist stacks are permanent (Minion aside).
Oh, it's worse than that, my friend. The name of this card is "Elixir".

The new point of Alchemist, if you have Elixirs, is to be a Lab that brings Elixir into the game so you can "Scheme" your Golds.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 01:16:44 pm by Matt_Arnold »
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eHalcyon

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #141 on: June 21, 2013, 01:15:57 pm »
0

I like it, but what if you're thinking too small? The way to buff Transmute is not to give it an on-gain +1 Buy, but to eliminate Herbalist and fuse it with Potion.

Elixir. Cost: $4. Type: Treasure.
"Choose one: Put this or any Treasure from your hand on top of your deck. Or: +1 Potion, +1 Buy.
-----------------------
Setup: Use this supply in place of Potion."

No more mana screw. Now all of Alchemy is fixed, not just Transmute. You're welcome. ;)

Suddenly, Alchemist stacks are permanent (Minion aside).
Oh, it's worse than that, my friend. The name of this card is "Elixir".

The new point of Alchemist, if you have Elixirs, is to be a Lab that brings Elixir into the game so you can "Scheme" your Golds.

Oops, name change. Right!
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LastFootnote

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #142 on: June 21, 2013, 02:25:12 pm »
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Why are we suddenly talking about Transmute? The way to "fix" Transmute is to play games with more than 1 or 2 Alchemy cards. Case closed.
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Robz888

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #143 on: June 21, 2013, 02:27:45 pm »
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Transmute is a terrible card, but because of its cost, there are times where you will pick one up just because you have a Potion but not enough cash for other stuff. Such times are infrequent, sure. But I don't really think Transmute needs a "fix," because there are circumstances where you buy it.
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Witherweaver

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #144 on: June 21, 2013, 03:06:05 pm »
+3

Have Scout pick up Victory cards and Transmutes.  Duh.
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LastFootnote

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #145 on: June 21, 2013, 03:16:03 pm »
0

Transmute is a terrible card, but because of its cost, there are times where you will pick one up just because you have a Potion but not enough cash for other stuff. Such times are infrequent, sure. But I don't really think Transmute needs a "fix," because there are circumstances where you buy it.

I think it's more complex than that. If Transmute is the only Potion card on the table, buying a Potion is barely ever worth it because you're probably only buying one Transmute and then you have a dead Potion. If there are, say, 4 Alchemy cards on the table, Transmute often becomes a hot ticket and I'll often sacrifice my first Potion buy on a Transmute even if I could have gotten an Apothecary, for example. I won't pass up a Familiar for it, but you get the idea. Exchanging Estates for Gold isn't just powerful in its own right, but it frees up your buys for powerful Action cards (especially Potion-cost Actions).
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Robz888

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #146 on: June 21, 2013, 03:51:00 pm »
0

Transmute is a terrible card, but because of its cost, there are times where you will pick one up just because you have a Potion but not enough cash for other stuff. Such times are infrequent, sure. But I don't really think Transmute needs a "fix," because there are circumstances where you buy it.

I think it's more complex than that. If Transmute is the only Potion card on the table, buying a Potion is barely ever worth it because you're probably only buying one Transmute and then you have a dead Potion. If there are, say, 4 Alchemy cards on the table, Transmute often becomes a hot ticket and I'll often sacrifice my first Potion buy on a Transmute even if I could have gotten an Apothecary, for example. I won't pass up a Familiar for it, but you get the idea. Exchanging Estates for Gold isn't just powerful in its own right, but it frees up your buys for powerful Action cards (especially Potion-cost Actions).

Passing up an Apothecary for a Transmute feels like it's *almost* always never a good idea.

I agree that Transmute gets better with more Alchemy cards. Scout actually gets better with more Intrigue cards, too. This actually makes more sense for Intrigue, though, which you can play by itself, than Alchemy, which you can't.
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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #147 on: June 21, 2013, 04:00:53 pm »
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how about this: give it a cellar effect for victory cards.  To the normal text, add at the end, discard any number of victory cards, then draw that many cards.  CellarScout/Tunnel anyone?
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What would make Scout better?
« Reply #148 on: June 22, 2013, 07:45:39 am »
+1

Transmute is easily fixed imo

Transmute
Action - $P
(Same effect)
---
When you gain this, +1 Buy

Its only problem is its opportunity cost really. Estate->Gold is powerful, as is Action->Duchy in the late game. This fix makes Copper->Transmute better too.

The only rules problem is fixing what happens if you gain a Transmute when it isn't your turn (with Jester etc.)
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