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[popsofctown]

So far I've managed to play 3 games with Young Nick so far involving this card.  Unfortunately my testing is limited by the sets I own.. Fool's Gold appeared in 2/3 games and Witch appeared in 2/3 games.

Young Nick used Astrolabe game 1 to assist his Witch/Fool's Gold/Chapel strategy, but lost to my deck that ignored Astrolabe (using the same key cards).  I think Astrolabe may not have been a correct purchase that game, and that even if it was, it didn't change the game so much that it makes me say, "hey this is why this card should exist".

Game 3 I did feel like "hey this is why this card should exist", but man it had a lot of support.  Fool's Gold, Workshop, Smithy, Tactician, Ghost Ship, Merchant Ship, Pearl Diver, Duchess, Haven are what I remember of the kingdom.  And spy and Astrolabe.  I purchased an Astrolabe to go with Haven and Tactician to make it incredibly likely that it was used to purchase Victory cards.  It was used for Province/Duchy.

After playing these games I want to test the card at 2$ with Gardens/Silk Road to see if they form an unstoppable rush or not.  I think it may very well stay manageable.

Witch made it a lot harder to care about Astrolabe, I feel, and I'd like to give Astrolabe a reaction from hand so that it can block curses and be used with gainers.  The primary reason it doesn't have such a reaction is because the original contest prohibitted that, yet at this point I feel like it is best to do what is best for the card.

[eHalcyon]

Witch made it a lot harder to care about Astrolabe, I feel, and I'd like to give Astrolabe a reaction from hand so that it can block curses and be used with gainers.  The primary reason it doesn't have such a reaction is because the original contest prohibitted that, yet at this point I feel like it is best to do what is best for the card.

And suddenly the set has a Reactions sub-theme.  I'd like that change though.  OTOH, it might be better than it can't block Curses.  Is it a problem that Astrolabe is bad against Witch?

You should play-test a board with a strong engine.  I think that was the biggest concern with it.

[rinkworks]

Why make a simple card more complicated just to make it stronger in more situations?  If it anti-synergizes with Cursing, it's okay to let that happen.  Preferable, in fact, to adding abilities until it becomes a good buy all the time.  If it stays on the table in certain kinds of kingdoms, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

As this is a strategy forum, we talk a lot about how weak cards like, I dunno, Navigator and Adventurer and Contraband and Herbalist and Harvest are.  But they aren't weak in terms of design, only in the frequency and/or magnitude of their utility in a winning strategy.  Navigator, for example, is a GREAT card in terms of its design and function.

[theory]

I would be shocked if Astrolabe was more commonly useful than Talisman as-is.  The reason I think people are talking about adding the Reaction is that it keeps in the general "idea" of the card but makes it far more interesting.

[Young Nick]

Having played actual games with pops using the card, here are my thoughts:

If it had a reaction, it would be cool for it to mirror the function of the card. So you could set the Curse aside and return it to your deck at the end of the game. This clearly is a pretty weak reaction, but would still be interesting.

I just don't see $4 being right for this card. It only works in specific situations (engines, primarily), and you rarely want more than 1 of it. pops and I observed that there are few cards like these, that you only want one of, the best example being Outpost.

I wonder if it would be too good as a $5 worth $2, so like any of the Silver+ cards.

Testing it with rushes will matter a lot. If it doesn't at least make a rush more viable, then the card seems to be too limited in function.

I am not play-testing expert. These are just my thoughts having seen it in three games.

[Schneau]

Other cards that you likely only want one of: Moneylender, Loan, Spice Merchant. Connection: limited Copper trashers.

[eHalcyon]

I wonder if it would be too good as a $5 worth $2, so like any of the Silver+ cards.

I would think yes, too good.  Silver is useful for getting to Province.  Copper is much less useful so you actually have to evaluate whether it would be worth it to pick up copper-Astrolabe.

[Qvist]

That basically confirms my assumption that it should be a $3 card (or even a $2 card).
And I think too that it wouldn't be as interesting as a better Silver instead of a better Copper.

[Captain_Frisk]

In the playtesting threads, it would be really helpful if you'd put the full description of the card. 

[Young Nick]

roughly:
$4 - Treasure
Worth: $1

Whenever you buy a card while this is in play, you may set it aside and return it to your deck at the end of the game.

[Polk5440]

Testing it with rushes will matter a lot. If it doesn't at least make a rush more viable, then the card seems to be too limited in function.

Did you try any games with rushes? Did either of you try to construct a Golden Deck? I am most interested in the rush-viable versus rush-broken tests.

[popsofctown]

Testing it with rushes will matter a lot. If it doesn't at least make a rush more viable, then the card seems to be too limited in function.

Did you try any games with rushes? Did either of you try to construct a Golden Deck? I am most interested in the rush-viable versus rush-broken tests.

No, we plan to test rushes next time.

[popsofctown]

Why make a simple card more complicated just to make it stronger in more situations?  If it anti-synergizes with Cursing, it's okay to let that happen.  Preferable, in fact, to adding abilities until it becomes a good buy all the time.  If it stays on the table in certain kinds of kingdoms, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

As this is a strategy forum, we talk a lot about how weak cards like, I dunno, Navigator and Adventurer and Contraband and Herbalist and Harvest are.  But they aren't weak in terms of design, only in the frequency and/or magnitude of their utility in a winning strategy.  Navigator, for example, is a GREAT card in terms of its design and function.

I didn't mean to say, "hey, I found a class of game where you don't want to buy Astrolabe, let's make it so that even in that class of game you want Astrolabe."  I meant to convey that since Cursers hose Astrolabe so badly as it is, because the curses make it hard to reliably hit a green value the turn you use Astrolabe, because of that interaction it wouldn't risk turning Astrolabe into a no-brainer if a reaction was added. 
The cursing isn't what I wanted it to deal with as much as the Remodel effects.  It kinda frustrated me that I couldn't Remodel a gold into a Province and set it aside, even though that's in the spirit of things.

But hey I was just saying I was thinking about it, not dead set on it..

I'm gonna test rushes at 2$ and see if 2$ works ok.  3$ could be more appropriate, but at this moment I suspect 2$ is best.  It passes the 2/5 test, passes the "is this card always better than nothing?" test, and certainly passes the "is this card too good for 4$ and 2 Buys" test.

[Young Nick]

Maybe this will mark the birth of $2 Copper+ cards. Currently Loan is a Copper+ for $3. Talisman is a Copper+ for $4. It would be cool if there was one price that was most common for these Copper+ cards.

[theory]

IGG is Copper+ for $5.

[eHalcyon]

IGG is Copper+ for $5.

I tend to think of IGG as Silver+, where the + is almost entirely in the on-gain.  I think of it that way because it is guaranteed $2 if you want it to be (barring the edge case of no more Copper).

[popsofctown]

Unfortunately since IGG cheats the 3 pile rule, it functions more like Silver+ than Copper+.  But in games with other cursers it is a Copper+..

Loan would be pretty innoffensive at 2$, probably.  Talisman might be too useful for 5/2s

[Schneau]

The other problem with Talisman at $2 is that it would be way too easy to drain if there are +Buys.