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Author Topic: Dark Ages: Ironmonger  (Read 6817 times)

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enquerencia

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Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« on: October 03, 2012, 10:17:56 am »
+1

I've never attempted an article before, and frankly, I believe myself to be unqualified.  However, I want to see an article on Ironmonger, so there you go.  I'm gonna try one.  Please remit your complaints/ kudos/ comments as you see fit.

Ironmonger is a strong card.  There, I said it. 

Let's start with this.  If you open with it, then what you have is basically coppers, estates (or shelters, in which case it's a little worse, but still not bad), and probably one silver.  So the first time you play it it's gonna hit one of those cards, and if it's a copper, bam! copper in the discard pile, one coin to you.  If it's an estate, bam! estate in the discard and you draw a card.  Maybe it's a silver even?! 

But where it shines is when you have multiples.  When an ironmonger finds another ironmonger, it gives another action.  This doesn't do much good if the only action you're buying is Ironmonger, but if you're building an engine, pretty much any engine, Ironmonger is going to help all the way, and it isn't going to hurt even a little.  Because it's always a cantrip it never hurts to play it.  So if you're running a basic draw engine and you're missing pieces, you can play your Ironmonger and you'll replace it with whatever, but the card it reveals, even if it's trash it's gonna help, provided your engine has enough pieces scattered throughout. 

Let's say you're running village/smithy/ironmonger.  This is probably not an optimal way to play it, but let's just say.  If all you have in hand is two ironmongers and blah blah blah, and you draw a dead smithy, but turn up a village, you get two actions, so you can play the smithy without fear, draw up the village, and maybe end up with another smithy by the time all is said and done. 

The main thing about it is to know what's in your deck.  Unlike Tribute which depends on your opponent's deck (and is therefore a lot harder to rely on,) Ironmonger relies on YOUR deck, so you have a much better idea of what's going to happen.  And honestly, the worst thing that can happen is basically it not being super-duper-amazing, but just a simple cantrip that happens to give you an action you don't need.  Boo-hoo.  And even when that happens you can still run a chain of Ironmongers putting all your trash in the discard pile and getting some kind of benefit from it no matter what!  If you play Ironmonger after Ironmonger and end up with all your estates and coppers in the discard, you probably have enough coins and cards to buy whatever engine pieces you need, you're that much closer to a reshuffle, and if you can pick up a +buy in there somewhere, your next tour through the cards is gonna be so much sweeter!



I'm a fan.

enquerencia
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 10:38:51 am by enquerencia »
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D Bo

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Re: Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2012, 10:44:15 am »
0

Like Ironworks, it's also super-fun with cards that are Victory and Action cards. One of the proposed games that comes with the Dark Ages rules includes Great Hall and Nobles, so getting the plus card and action is always a good thing. Obviously would work just as well with Island. I haven't played a lot with this card as of yet, but it's definitely a fun one.
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enquerencia

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Re: Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 10:47:41 am »
0

Oh, yeah!  Good point D Bo!  It works really well with any card that is action/victory!  Kind of like using an Ironworks to pick up a Great Hall just to turn the Ironworks into a cantrip itself while also increasing your total VP.  I should have mentioned that.  Thanks.
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DG

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Re: Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 11:20:31 am »
0

I wrote up a short review of all of the Dark Ages cards in the first Goko selection, but haven't done anything with it yet. Maybe I can post the rest up if people want to see. Here's what I thought about the ironmonger.

"I've been slowly warming to the ironmonger. Perhaps if you have little expectation of an ironmonger doing something specific for you, you can then be pleased at whatever it actually does. When you're getting the most out of the ironmonger, the choice to discard the revealed card is strong, meaning that your deck has variable quality. Drawing a card seems a better outcome usually than +1 coin, and +1 action is very situational. Put this together and you can see that the ironmonger works best in a mixed quality deck where you can reveal a green card, discard it, and draw the following card. It actually works best with nobles, but that's surely no surprise."
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enquerencia

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Re: Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 11:37:45 am »
0

Yeah, DG, that's kind of what I'm getting at.  Actually I just want to see a full article on it because I think the card deserves it.   I've found that it works very well in almost any situation to the point where I'll usually pick up several if I can, and I know there are a lot of people on this forum who can show data, analyze data, and dumb it down for guys like me, and I want to read it.  I really don't think I've said anything original or groundbreaking here. 

I'd be happy to read anything else you have to say about it.

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jsh357

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Re: Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2012, 11:49:00 am »
0

I'm glad at least some people are starting to write DA articles.  Sadly, the lack of a way to play them online is contributing to the silence.  I have felt like writing myself, but unfortunately I have only played with each card IRL once or twice, as my only Dominion partner is now too busy to play.  Maybe one day...

As for Ironmonger, I have been surprised by how effective it often is, at least in the games I played with it on Goko before the paid beta.  The discard effect is deceptively useful since it's non-blind, and often contributes more than the +Action or +Coin you get with it.  The card is also nice for scouting ahead (combos with Scout, hurr hurr).   Sadly, I don't think it's too reliable as a source of virtual money, as to base an economy on Ironmonger means buying more Actions that don't give the coin.  That said, sometimes the $1 you get from it can make a difference too.  Using it as a cheap Lab is only powerful-good with alternate VP, as DG mentioned above; otherwise you are just drawing the Victory card you revealed or making a blind draw, which can help but often is mediocre.  Ironmonger is probably at its best with dual victory cards (Ironmonger/Harem seems crazy good to me).
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mischiefmaker

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Re: Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2012, 01:11:07 pm »
+4

Ironmonger is definitely a strong card, no disagreement there. A few things I think are worth mentioning:

Ironmonger-BM
Ironmonger is surprisingly strong all by itself -- solo play suggests that straight Ironmonger-BM is similar to Smithy-BM (14-17 turns to get 4 Provinces and a couple of Duchies). So while Ironmonger generally fits into an engine, that engine has to be fast enough to beat Ironmonger on its own, which is non-trivial.

Ironmonger in an engine

Ironmonger seems to me to be at its *worst* when it finds other actions. Let's consider the separate effects:

Treasure: +1 card, +1 action, +$1, potentially discards copper. That's a bit stronger than a typical $4; Donald has said that +1 card/action/$ would be a boring but balanced $4, and this adds a copper filter or information about your top card.

Victory: +2 card, +1 action, discards victory. That's a lab+, which is better than a strong $5.

Action: +1 card, +2 actions, usually will not discard your action. That's a village.

Therefore, in a vacuum, Ironmonger loses relative value as your action density increases -- because you've paid $4 for a card that is increasingly likely to be a $3 card. Now, obviously, if there are no other villages and you need one to make your engine work, maybe that's not a concern (the same way you'll buy multiple Worker's Villages even if you don't need the +buy).

Conversely, Ironmonger tends to be ok with early greening, since the more green you have, the more powerful Ironmonger is. However, I say "ok" instead of "really likes" because you have to be careful not to fall into the same trap as Crossroads -- the more green you have, the more likely Ironmonger's blind draw is another non-helpful green card!

Ironmonger and dual type cards

Following the same analysis as above:

Victory/Action: +2 cards, +2 actions
Victory/Treasure: +2 cards, +1 action, +$1

Both of those are strictly better than lab, so the more of those you can put in your deck, the better Ironmonger becomes.

Works with/Conflicts with
In addition to the above, Ironmonger works well with cards that care about the top card of your deck. Mystic is the obvious choice but there may be others (Lookout, perhaps).

Ironmonger does not work well with cursers, since hitting a curse reduces Ironmonger to a straight cantrip (which is worse than Vagrant, a $2). It's a mixed bag with Looters; hitting Ruins is a Village plus Ruins filter, which isn't bad for a $4 but it isn't great. More important is that in most cases you're likely better off just going for the Looter (Marauder/Cultist) or ignoring it (Death Cart, unless of course there's a Death Cart enabler on board) than comboing it with Ironmonger. That being said, Ironmonger is a strong choice if you are building an engine that ignores the available Looter attacks.
 
Ironmonger and opportunity cost

I'm going to pick on this statement:

Quote
if you're building an engine, pretty much any engine, Ironmonger is going to help all the way, and it isn't going to hurt even a little.  Because it's always a cantrip it never hurts to play it.

You could say the same thing about Caravan; in fact, you *should* say the same thing about Caravan. But it's important to take opportunity cost into account as well. It never hurts to play an Ironmonger, but sometimes it hurts to *buy* an Ironmonger, if your engine could get off the ground faster if you bought a different $4.

That being said, Ironmonger tends to be a bit better than most other spammable cantrips, because early in your engine build, Ironmonger is likely to hit copper and estates, cycling your deck a bit and giving you the more powerful effects; later, as you trim your deck, set up filtering, and/or increase action density, Ironmonger gives you the +actions you need.

The basic takeaway, though, is that Ironmonger in an engine works much better with a gainer, so that you're not giving up the opportunity cost of buying a different $4.
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DrFlux

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Re: Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2012, 01:13:35 pm »
+2

Its actually better than a lab early on. When you turn over a copper, its equivalent to a lab, because you discard the copper and get +$1, so its just like drawing it. When you turn over an estate, you draw a card AND you get to discard the estate, so that's actually just as good as +3 cards, +1 action. However, as you get more of them, you hit actions more often, and then its usually just a village, because the action is nearly always something you want to keep. It isn't very good as a village, as you want to be able to depend on your villages giving you + actions. Turning over an action means that particular action isn't in your hand, if you turn over a terminal drawer with the monger, you will be sad.

It is okay in money as it will usually be a peddler or a lab, but probably isn't worth it if you are planning on using terminal draw.

That's really the question about Ironmonger: where exactly does it fit in?

My judgements so far:
- good with dual type, particularly nobles, whose flexibility can make up a bit for the fact that you don't know when it will be a village
- fairly good in money decks that don't require terminal draw (goons, etc)
- good with alt VP where your greener deck makes it more likely for it to act like +3 cards

NOTE: its a significantly better opener in estate games, as compared to shelter games.
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enquerencia

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Re: Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2012, 01:18:09 pm »
0

Ironmonger is definitely a strong card, no disagreement there. A few things I think are worth mentioning:

Ironmonger-BM
Ironmonger is surprisingly strong all by itself -- solo play suggests that straight Ironmonger-BM is similar to Smithy-BM (14-17 turns to get 4 Provinces and a couple of Duchies). So while Ironmonger generally fits into an engine, that engine has to be fast enough to beat Ironmonger on its own, which is non-trivial.

Ironmonger in an engine

Ironmonger seems to me to be at its *worst* when it finds other actions. Let's consider the separate effects:

Treasure: +1 card, +1 action, +$1, potentially discards copper. That's a bit stronger than a typical $4; Donald has said that +1 card/action/$ would be a boring but balanced $4, and this adds a copper filter or information about your top card.

Victory: +2 card, +1 action, discards victory. That's a lab+, which is better than a strong $5.

Action: +1 card, +2 actions, usually will not discard your action. That's a village.

Therefore, in a vacuum, Ironmonger loses relative value as your action density increases -- because you've paid $4 for a card that is increasingly likely to be a $3 card. Now, obviously, if there are no other villages and you need one to make your engine work, maybe that's not a concern (the same way you'll buy multiple Worker's Villages even if you don't need the +buy).

Conversely, Ironmonger tends to be ok with early greening, since the more green you have, the more powerful Ironmonger is. However, I say "ok" instead of "really likes" because you have to be careful not to fall into the same trap as Crossroads -- the more green you have, the more likely Ironmonger's blind draw is another non-helpful green card!

Ironmonger and dual type cards

Following the same analysis as above:

Victory/Action: +2 cards, +2 actions
Victory/Treasure: +2 cards, +1 action, +$1

Both of those are strictly better than lab, so the more of those you can put in your deck, the better Ironmonger becomes.

Works with/Conflicts with
In addition to the above, Ironmonger works well with cards that care about the top card of your deck. Mystic is the obvious choice but there may be others (Lookout, perhaps).

Ironmonger does not work well with cursers, since hitting a curse reduces Ironmonger to a straight cantrip (which is worse than Vagrant, a $2). It's a mixed bag with Looters; hitting Ruins is a Village plus Ruins filter, which isn't bad for a $4 but it isn't great. More important is that in most cases you're likely better off just going for the Looter (Marauder/Cultist) or ignoring it (Death Cart, unless of course there's a Death Cart enabler on board) than comboing it with Ironmonger. That being said, Ironmonger is a strong choice if you are building an engine that ignores the available Looter attacks.
 
Ironmonger and opportunity cost

I'm going to pick on this statement:

Quote
if you're building an engine, pretty much any engine, Ironmonger is going to help all the way, and it isn't going to hurt even a little.  Because it's always a cantrip it never hurts to play it.

You could say the same thing about Caravan; in fact, you *should* say the same thing about Caravan. But it's important to take opportunity cost into account as well. It never hurts to play an Ironmonger, but sometimes it hurts to *buy* an Ironmonger, if your engine could get off the ground faster if you bought a different $4.

That being said, Ironmonger tends to be a bit better than most other spammable cantrips, because early in your engine build, Ironmonger is likely to hit copper and estates, cycling your deck a bit and giving you the more powerful effects; later, as you trim your deck, set up filtering, and/or increase action density, Ironmonger gives you the +actions you need.

The basic takeaway, though, is that Ironmonger in an engine works much better with a gainer, so that you're not giving up the opportunity cost of buying a different $4.

I was thinking over my OP and how most real articles have a "works with/doesn't work with" section, and I came to some of the same conclusions, but I want to thank you for summing it all up so concisely.  And I have to admit that one of my major weaknesses as a dominion player is my failure to realize that just because a card is not a bad card to PLAY does not mean it isn't a bad card to BUY.  I have to find a way to wrap my head around that. 

But in general, I think you might have written the article I wanted to read. 

Thanks.
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enquerencia

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Re: Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2012, 01:23:16 pm »
0

I will say thought that even though it doesn't work "well" with cursers, it still has an upside in that unlike a straight cantrip, you're at least discarding the curse, or leaving it there for a lookout (which you did mention.)
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DrFlux

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Re: Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2012, 01:30:25 pm »
+2

Quote
That being said, Ironmonger tends to be a bit better than most other spammable cantrips, because early in your engine build, Ironmonger is likely to hit copper and estates, cycling your deck a bit and giving you the more powerful effects; later, as you trim your deck, set up filtering, and/or increase action density, Ironmonger gives you the +actions you need.

I like this comment, and I think that it points out that Ironmonger is good in engines as an opener. Many engines have the dilemma of whether to buy silver early that the deck won't really want later, or to risk not having enough early game buying power. This card is a good alternative. I'd be psyched to open ironmonger/ambassador, ironmonger/steward on a board with key 5's like witch or wharf.

I think a good comparison is Shanty Town... I think if you spam it in an engine, whether you are hoping for +actions or not, you are going to be disappointed. However, like Shanty town, it is excellent as an opening accelerator and source of resources, and later on may still play a roll in getting you your +actions.



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SirPeebles

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Re: Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2012, 02:05:25 pm »
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If you reveal Island or Nobles, you get +1 action and draw the victory card into your hand.  Ironmonger is almost as good as Scout!  :p
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ftl

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Re: Dark Ages: Ironmonger
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2012, 02:08:09 pm »
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But in total, it'll give you +2 actions and draw you 2 cards, so it'll be like a level 2 city.
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