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[ednever]

Whenever discussion on this board goes to 'how do you deign a good non-random kingdom' one of the things that almost always comes up is, "It needs to have +actions"

I've always thought that was wrong.

Engine building with +actions can be a lot of fun, but it's only one small part of the strategy space that exists in Dominion.

chwhite (level 40+ player) and I just played this game: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201210/02/game-20121002-194558-3ac6fcf1.html

It was a super interesting kingdom (that lead to a super interesting game with lots of both strategic and tactical decision points) and it had no +actions. In fact the game would have been a lot LESS interesting if there had been +actions. Here's why:

1- The first strategy choice is whether to go Scrying Pool or not. We both went that way, but it's very unclear if that's the right answer. We talked after the match and there was a very viable solution going Bridge/Nomad Camp/Hoard/Silk Road. I may very well beat Scrying Pool. If there had been +actions then Pool would win hands down - therefore less strategic thinking

2- After going Pool: With no +action lighthouse became very important as the only spamable card. Steward was important to trash down a the beginning, but if you stuck with Steward trashing, then you could only get one buy. At some point you had to transition to Bridge and Steward became a dead card. If there had been a village, then we both would have waited for a mega bridge-turn with a huge Scrying Pool draw (with no treasure left in the deck from the Stewards). there would have been a lot of luck on who 'went off' first. As it was we knew we would never have more than 2 buys per turn - which meant we had to start greening a lot earlier. But the faster we greened the faster we slowed down - due to the pools (which made aggressive early trashing important).
Also we had to pick up Golds - since We didn't have enough buys to spam lighthouses.


It was a very interesting match - and it would have been very run-of-the-mill had it had any card that acted like a village.

Just thought I'd share.

Ed

[One Armed Man]

There were plenty of cards with +action. Games that are far less interesting have no +1 action at all (especially if there aren't interesting alt-vp strategies or trashing.

[Dsell]

There were plenty of cards with +action. Games that are far less interesting have no +1 action at all (especially if there aren't interesting alt-vp strategies or trashing.

While I agree with this in general, when I was first introduced dominion and playing ALL the time (5+ times per day IRL), we found that games without +actions (any +actions at all, I think ednever was meaning villages) were surprisingly interesting and fun. I do feel they could become a little stale now since they're pretty BM+X, but in a kingdom with just terminals and treasures, even that can be really varied. We did play with prosperity, though, so we often had some kingdom treasures in the mix.

[ednever]

There were plenty of cards with +action. Games that are far less interesting have no +1 action at all (especially if there aren't interesting alt-vp strategies or trashing.

Yes. I meant villages +2 actions.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I don't think anyone thinks villages are necessary for interesting games. It's just that in the presence of villages, it's more likely that there exists a strategy that involves multiple terminals, and villages, which gives you more decisions with what to do with your buys. I don't think you need to guarantee any particular type of card to guarantee interesting games, but I do think that villages is one of the top 3-5 types of cards whose inclusion in the kingdom correlates with interesting games.

I also disagree that adding a village to this particular kingdom automatically makes it boring. Even if it makes Scrying Pool + Village + Bridge the best combo, there are still tactical decisions similar to the ones you faced this game. When do you buy Bridge over village? What do you do with your Steward? How low can I run the piles without the risk of him ending the game on piles with Estates?

[brokoli]

Engines with conspirator or minion (or even horn of plenty) never need villages...

[D Bo]

1- The first strategy choice is whether to go Scrying Pool or not. We both went that way, but it's very unclear if that's the right answer. We talked after the match and there was a very viable solution going Bridge/Nomad Camp/Hoard/Silk Road. I may very well beat Scrying Pool. If there had been +actions then Pool would win hands down - therefore less strategic thinking

I think it's interesting that you both went Scrying Pool really - I almost certainly would've gone this first suggested strategy. I really really love Hoard though, so that's probably why. Also would've thrown in Monument as well, maybe instead of Nomad Camp, although that might not be the right call.

Glad you posted this though. I'm definitely guilty of always looking for some sort of village-type engine when games can still be fun without having that in it.

[Octo]

In fact the game would have been a lot LESS interesting if there had been +actions.

Perhaps, but I think if that were the case then it would be the fault of Scrying pool more than village - I think Scrying Pool is a remarkably tedious card and it's use was limited here by the lack of village. Sure adding a village would exacerbate the issue, but it's a subtle distinction for me that I would blame Scrying pool for being annoying and predictably spammy rather than blame the village for being an activator.

[PitzerMike]

I especially like kingdoms without actual villages but where you can still construct clever engines using throne-room, golem or similar cards.
I remember laughing to myself when I first played someone who went for pirate ships on a board with no obvious way to play multiple in one turn. Well ... I got crushed by throned pirate ships.

[ednever]

...and I remember the first time simeone went goons without any villages. I laughed until I cried when he started goleming cantrips and playing 3+goons per turn.

Lesson learned.

Ed

[blueblimp]

I'm not seeing why Scrying Pool is any good in this kingdom. The trouble with pool+durations is that you can only pick up the durations with pool once every 2 turns, so really having 4 Lighthouses is like having 2 of some non-duration action. Apart from Lighthouse (and pool itself), there's no spammable action, so I don't how the pools are doing much good.

I'd have been tempted to Monument+BM myself, because hey Monument+BM is really strong, and then mixing in a Hoard somehow. Maybe that loses to alt vp.

[ednever]

I'm not seeing why Scrying Pool is any good in this kingdom. The trouble with pool+durations is that you can only pick up the durations with pool once every 2 turns, so really having 4 Lighthouses is like having 2 of some non-duration action. Apart from Lighthouse (and pool itself), there's no spammable action, so I don't how the pools are doing much good.

I'd have been tempted to Monument+BM myself, because hey Monument+BM is really strong, and then mixing in a Hoard somehow. Maybe that loses to alt vp.

Correct. This is not an awesome pool board. But it does have four things going for it that I think took us both in that direction:

1- spam able action cards that create $$s. true lh can only be played every second turn, but it can be played everytime it's in hand. And actions that produce $$s are key for pools
2- trashing: steward lets you get rid of estates and coppers off the top. And you can kill two cards and still have enough to buy a lighthouse
3- +buy. The bridge is great for later so you can pick up a house and a pool, or in the end game, two green to catch up
4- alt vp. While pools don't like the greening that sr requires, they do like the fact there is more total vp on the board. Pools are slow to get started, and the additional vp gives a chance to catch up

Not saying it beats hoard/camp/silk road or even monument+bm, but it's definitely a contender.

I'm sure someone could run a simulation to tell us. I know I would be curious.

Ed

[pingpongsam]

In the year (?) I've been playing on isotropic I've seen the userbase grow from being easy to beat by vetoing the +action cards to being just as wise without them. Personally, I can play with +action but find it rote and highly prefer to veto out the obvious routes.

[dondon151]

I personally find +buy or gainers to be far more conducive to an "interesting" kingdom, moreso than +2 actions.

[mischiefmaker]

Not saying it beats hoard/camp/silk road or even monument+bm, but it's definitely a contender.

I'm sure someone could run a simulation to tell us. I know I would be curious.

I'm sure someone can run a better simulation than I can, but FWIW:

Monument-BM beats Scrying Pool/Lighthouse/Bridge/Gold 56-41
Monument-BM beats Hoard/Nomad Camp/Silk Road 64-33
SP/LH/B/G beats Hoard/NC/SR 65-32

Keep in mind that I am not nearly as good at tuning bots as most. Also keep in mind that I'm kind of a crappy engine builder (at least, if my games against marin have taught me anything). But here are my bots:

SP/LH/B/G:

Code: [Select]

<player name="Pool/Lighthouse/Steward/Bridge"
 author="mischiefmaker"
 description="">
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silk_Road">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Potion">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Potion"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
         <extra_operation type="divideBy" attribute="5.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Steward">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Steward"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Bridge">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Copper"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Bridge"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Scrying_Pool"/>
   <buy name="Lighthouse"/>
</player>


Hoard/NC/SR:

Code: [Select]

<player name="Hoard/Nomad Camp/Silk Road"
 author="mischiefmaker"
 description="">
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silk_Road">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Hoard">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countTurns"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="12.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Nomad_Camp">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Nomad_Camp"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Treasure"/>
         <extra_operation type="divideBy" attribute="8.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silk_Road">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="countAllCardsInDeck"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
</player>


[dondon151]

SR strategy should almost not go for Provinces at all, I think. It wants lots of green to power up SRs and therefore would like a longer game, not a race to 4 Provinces.

[mischiefmaker]

It turns out there's a significant improvement to be made to the Silk Road bot, but it isn't to ignore Provinces (when I did that, its win rate plummets). It's to prefer Silk Road to Duchy and to more liberally buy Estates, and only buy Provinces once you have a bunch of golds (5-7). When I do this, the Hoard bot smokes the Monument bot, 65-32.

Revised Hoard bot:

Code: [Select]

<player name="Hoard/Nomad Camp/Silk Road"
 author="mischiefmaker"
 description="">
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="7.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silk_Road">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Hoard">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countTurns"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="12.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Nomad_Camp">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Nomad_Camp"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Treasure"/>
         <extra_operation type="divideBy" attribute="8.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silk_Road">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

Ah, but the SP/LH/Steward/Bridge bot still beats it 55-43. So we have an RPS situation, which is pretty interesting all by itself. But also:

Monument-BM, playing from second position, beats Scrying Pool engine 50-47
Scrying Pool engine, playing from second position, beats Silk Road 49-48
Silk Road, playing from second position, beats Monument-BM 59-38

Granted two of those results are so slim they are basically a coin flip, but given that each of these strategies has a unique opening (Monument-Silver, Nomad Camp-Silver, Potion-Steward), you might even make the argument that 2P actually has a very slight advantage here, since he gets to see what his opponent opens.

[ednever]

It turns out there's a significant improvement to be made to the Silk Road bot, but it isn't to ignore Provinces (when I did that, its win rate plummets). It's to prefer Silk Road to Duchy and to more liberally buy Estates, and only buy Provinces once you have a bunch of golds (5-7). When I do this, the Hoard bot smokes the Monument bot, 65-32.

Revised Hoard bot:

Code: [Select]

<player name="Hoard/Nomad Camp/Silk Road"
 author="mischiefmaker"
 description="">
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="7.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silk_Road">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Hoard">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInPlay" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countTurns"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="12.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Nomad_Camp">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Nomad_Camp"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Treasure"/>
         <extra_operation type="divideBy" attribute="8.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silk_Road">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Hoard"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

Ah, but the SP/LH/Steward/Bridge bot still beats it 55-43. So we have an RPS situation, which is pretty interesting all by itself. But also:

Monument-BM, playing from second position, beats Scrying Pool engine 50-47
Scrying Pool engine, playing from second position, beats Silk Road 49-48
Silk Road, playing from second position, beats Monument-BM 59-38

Granted two of those results are so slim they are basically a coin flip, but given that each of these strategies has a unique opening (Monument-Silver, Nomad Camp-Silver, Potion-Steward), you might even make the argument that 2P actually has a very slight advantage here, since he gets to see what his opponent opens.

Wow. That's incredibly cool if it holds up to additional bot improvements.

Monument > pool > silk road > monument.

We talk about kingdoms that have p2 advantage but you rarely see them in practice. We talk about sets that have very different strategies that have similar win rates, but they are rare in practice (usually best strategy wins). And we talk about paper-rock-scissors kimgdoms, but again they are rarely seen.

Very cool.

Any ideas why it lands like that?

My guess:
Sr can ignore provinces and pick up a bunch of low cost green making the monument bot stall on provinces. But it's slow which gives time for the pool bit to build - and after its built it can fly past picking up a province every turn consistently.

But the pool bot can't compete if it's forced to buy the low cost green. So when it goes provinces, the monument bot splits them and wins on vp.

Any other ideas what's going on?

Ed

[Rabid]

Looks to me like Monument / Silver opening should win here.
Adjust strategy in response to your opponent.
Monument BM if they go Scrying Pool.
Monument + hoard (+ Nomads Camp) + Silk road otherwise.

[Spiral Architect]

Just throw out a lab and all is right with the world.

[eHalcyon]

Looks to me like Monument / Silver opening should win here.
Adjust strategy in response to your opponent.
Monument BM if they go Scrying Pool.
Monument + hoard (+ Nomads Camp) + Silk road otherwise.

I was wondering why people suggested Monument+BM but weren't also including Hoard.  Would SP still beat Monument+Hoard?