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Author Topic: Farmland + On-Trash Abilities  (Read 2473 times)

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sffc

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Farmland + On-Trash Abilities
« on: September 30, 2012, 02:24:27 am »
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I've recently played several F2F games that involved Dark Ages cards and Farmland.  The text of Farmland says:
Quote
When you buy this, trash a card from your hand.
Gain a card costing exactly 2$ more than the trashed card.

Cards including Rats, Overgrown Estate, and Cultist say:
Quote

When you trash this, +1 Card.  (+3 Cards for Cultist)

The special effect of Farmland is triggered only in the Buy Phase (except for Black Market).  Suppose you buy a Farmland, then trash a Rats from your hand.  I have a few questions:
  • Do you still add a card to your hand?
  • If so:
    • If it is an Action, do you get to play it?
    • If it is a Treasure, do you get to play it?
    • If it is a Reaction, if the reaction ability is triggered, do you get to use it?
  • In the edge case of Black Market, do you draw the cards and continue your Action Phase as usual?
In addition, if the on-trash ability is not "+Cards" (e.g. Squire), does that ability still get resolved?  One example would be to buy Farmland, trash Fortress, return Fortress to your hand, then gain (but not buy) another Farmland.  Does that combo work?  (Heh, Fortress would make for an unbalanced game if Farmland were on-gain instead of on-trash.  Good planning by Donald X.)

One other edge case.  Suppose you play a Haggler, buy a Farmland, and trash a Rats.  Do you get to choose the order in which to resolve the Rats' +Cards and the Haggler's gain cards?  For example, one weird situation I thought of is if you have a Watchtower in hand.  Suppose there was an Embargo token on Gold.  Could you gain a Trader from the supply with Haggler, then topdeck it with Watchtower, then draw it with the trashed Rats, then gain a Gold, then reveal Trader to gain a Silver instead of the Curse from Embargo?  (Pardon the ridiculousness of this situation; it's more for proof of concept than anything.)

Finally, seeing the order of the statements on Farmland, do all on-trash abilities get resolved before the card is gained from Farmland?

I think I know the answers to most of these questions, but I wanted to ask here to get an official answer.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 02:31:29 am by sffc »
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Farmland + On-Trash Abilities
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 02:48:49 am »
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  • Do you still add a card to your hand?


Yes.

  • If so:
  • If it is an Action, do you get to play it?


You're in your buy phase; you can't play actions in your buy phase.

  • If it is a Treasure, do you get to play it?


You can't play treasure in your buy phase after you buy a card.

  • If it is a Reaction, if the reaction ability is triggered, do you get to use it?


As long as the trigger happens while it's still in your hand, yes.

[/list]
  • In the edge case of Black Market, do you draw the cards and continue your Action Phase as usual?


Yes.

[/list]
In addition, if the on-trash ability is not "+Cards" (e.g. Squire), does that ability still get resolved?  One example would be to buy Farmland, trash Fortress, return Fortress to your hand, then gain (but not buy) another Farmland.  Does that combo work?  (Heh, Fortress would make for an unbalanced game if Farmland were on-gain instead of on-trash.  Good planning by Donald X.)

Yes.

One other edge case.  Suppose you play a Haggler, buy a Farmland, and trash a Rats.  Do you get to choose the order in which to resolve the Rats' +Cards and the Haggler's gain cards?

Yes, because Farmland and Haggler both have the same trigger -- "When you buy".

For example, one weird situation I thought of is if you have a Watchtower in hand.  Suppose there was an Embargo token on Gold.  Could you gain a Trader from the supply with Haggler, then topdeck it with Watchtower, then draw it with the trashed Rats, then gain a Gold, then reveal Trader to gain a Silver instead of the Curse from Embargo?  (Pardon the ridiculousness of this situation; it's more for proof of concept than anything.)

How is the Rats getting trashed here? You're buying a Gold, not a Farmland, right?

Finally, seeing the order of the statements on Farmland, do all on-trash abilities get resolved before the card is gained from Farmland?

Nope. When you buy Farmland, you resolve its on buy effect, trash a card, and gain a card. Then, if anything else triggered (rats, etc) you resolve those.

I think I know the answers to most of these questions, but I wanted to ask here to get an official answer.
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ftl

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Re: Farmland + On-Trash Abilities
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 02:50:27 am »
+1

  • Do you still add a card to your hand?
Yes, you draw a card.

Quote
  • If so:
    • If it is an Action, do you get to play it?

No. You are in your buy phase and can play no more actions.
Quote
    • If it is a Treasure, do you get to play it?
No. Even in your buy phase, you cannot play any treasures after you've already Bought a card.
Quote
    • If it is a Reaction, if the reaction ability is triggered, do you get to use it?
Yes.
Quote
  • In the edge case of Black Market, do you draw the cards and continue your Action Phase as usual?
Yes.

Quote
In addition, if the on-trash ability is not "+Cards" (e.g. Squire), does that ability still get resolved?

Yes.

Quote
  One example would be to buy Farmland, trash Fortress, return Fortress to your hand, then gain (but not buy) another Farmland.  Does that combo work? 

Yes.

Quote
One other edge case.  Suppose you play a Haggler, buy a Farmland, and trash a Rats.  Do you get to choose the order in which to resolve the Rats' +Cards and the Haggler's gain cards?  For example, one weird situation I thought of is if you have a Watchtower in hand.  Suppose there was an Embargo token on Gold.  Could you gain a Trader from the supply with Haggler, then topdeck it with Watchtower, then draw it with the trashed Rats, then gain a Gold, then reveal Trader to gain a Silver instead of the Curse from Embargo?  (Pardon the ridiculousness of this situation; it's more for proof of concept than anything.)

Sort of?

When you buy Farmland, TWO things get triggered "when you buy" it - Haggler and Farmland itself. You can resolve them in any order. So you can choose to resolve Haggler first, gaining a card, and topdeck it with watchtower. Then you use Farmland's "when-buy" ability, to trash a card; that trashes a rats, which lets you draw a card; and then you Gain a card costing 6, and could reveal the card you just gained with haggler and top-decked and drew. So you got that part of it right.

(However, Embargo does NOT activate on-gain, but only on-buy, so you wouldn't get the curse anyway, so that part of your example does not work. )


Quote
Finally, seeing the order of the statements on Farmland, do all on-trash abilities get resolved before the card is gained from Farmland?

Yes.

Quote
I think I know the answers to most of these questions, but I wanted to ask here to get an official answer.

Well, it's not official like a statement from DXV, but I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about here? I'm sure someone else from f.ds will correct me if I'm not.

The following principles guide all of this:
1) When two things are activated at the same time, the current player gets to choose what order to resolve them in.
2) When you draw a card, you don't need to keep track of the fact that you just drew it; once it's in your hand, it behaves the same way as all the cards that had been in your hand all along.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 02:53:38 am by ftl »
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ftl

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Re: Farmland + On-Trash Abilities
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 02:56:46 am »
+5


Finally, seeing the order of the statements on Farmland, do all on-trash abilities get resolved before the card is gained from Farmland?

Nope. When you buy Farmland, you resolve its on buy effect, trash a card, and gain a card. Then, if anything else triggered (rats, etc) you resolve those.


Oh hey, I have a disagreement with drab here.

When you buy farmland, you trash a card - and then immediately when you trash a card, you resolve all of it's on-trash effects. You do the when-trash effects when you trash a card, not when you finish resolving the rest of whatever caused you to trash a card! So I'm pretty sure the order is
1) Buy farmland
2) Trash something
2b) Resolve all the when-trashed effects of trashing that something
3) Gain something else
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sffc

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Re: Farmland + On-Trash Abilities
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2012, 01:22:27 am »
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Thanks for the responses.  Barring my Embargo flub, all of the answers were what I expected, except the can't-play-Treasure part.  But, looking back at the rules more closely, it does indeed say that you make your buys after you play your Treasures:

Quote
The player may play some or all of the Treasure cards from his hand to his play area and add to their value the coins provided by Action cards played this turn. The player may then gain any card in the Supply of equal or lesser value. He takes the purchased card from its Supply pile and places it face-up on his Discard pile.

:)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Farmland + On-Trash Abilities
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2012, 03:30:47 am »
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Thanks for the responses.  Barring my Embargo flub, all of the answers were what I expected, except the can't-play-Treasure part.  But, looking back at the rules more closely, it does indeed say that you make your buys after you play your Treasures:

Quote
The player may play some or all of the Treasure cards from his hand to his play area and add to their value the coins provided by Action cards played this turn. The player may then gain any card in the Supply of equal or lesser value. He takes the purchased card from its Supply pile and places it face-up on his Discard pile.

:)

The rule is important for things like Grand Market (you can't hold back Copper and then play them after your first buy).
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Jeebus

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Re: Farmland + On-Trash Abilities
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2012, 08:46:08 pm »
+1

(However, Embargo does NOT activate on-gain, but only on-buy, so you wouldn't get the curse anyway, so that part of your example does not work. )

To make the example relevant: If you had another buy and some unused coins, you could now buy an embargoed card and reveal the newly drawn Trader to get Silvers instead of any Curses.

Or, another fun one: With Haggler in play, buy Farmland, gain Market Square (from Haggler) and topdeck it with Watchtower, trash Rats (because of Farmland) and draw the Market Square, discard it (because you trashed a card) and gain a Gold and topdeck the Gold, then gain another Gold (Farmland-remodeled Rats) and topdeck that Gold too. :)
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