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[AdamH]

I'm a noob, I know. This is kind of a noobish question, but I've looked around this site for an article and Remodel and I haven't found one.

I'm having trouble finding any practical use for Remodel. It seems I'm better off in any circumstance without buying it at all. I'm pretty sure I'm wrong, but I just can't come up with any situations where buying Remodel can be useful.

I've heard about remodeling Golds into Provinces, and also remodeling Estates into better 4-cost actions (or maybe even Silvers?). I've attempted these and have never once successfully used Remodel. Does anyone have some experience with using Remodel successfully?

One other thing, since Remodel is in the base set, examples that are limited to the base set are better for me, especially since I've only ever played with the base set. Examples outside the base set are certainly welcome, though.

[Thisisnotasmile]

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/366636/turbo-remodel-or-the-holy-grail-of-dominion

That's one use of Remodel, although it's not actually terribly fast. Remodel is just a trash-for-benefit card just like all the others, but if you've not played with anything other than the base set you won't have seen the others. Its main use is getting rid of bad cards and turning them into better ones... obviously. For example, once you've chapelled your deck down, you can remodel your Chapel into something better. I'll admit though, Remodel is one of the worst trash-for-benefit cards for early-mid game because if you want to trash a Copper/Curse, you have to take an Estate or other cheap card in exchange, and that kind of defeats the whole point of wanting to trash that card. Other trash-for-benefit cards let you choose to not gain a card to replace the one you trashed (or offer other benefits altogether).

However, where Remodel really shines is in the end game when it can turn treasure cards into victory cards. These can provide vital tie-breaker points, especially in the base game where Big-Money strategies shine and tend to cause mirror-matches.

[DG]

Believe it or not, here's one I made earlier! It's an article from the Theory site with sample game planning using a remodel.

http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/05/03/guest-article-sample-game-planning/

[HockeyHippo]

When playing with only the base set I find Remodel to be a very powerful card. As far as my strategy goes. I'll typically open Remodel/Silver. I'll attempt to get as many remodels as fast as possible. This means Remodeling my Estates to Remodels and Buying Remodels as well. I haven't had much success Remodeling Coppers. I find it takes to long and the 2$ card clutters your deck more. When I start drawing 2 or 3 Remodels in the same hand I'll start Remodeling Remodels to Gold, buy Remodels when available. Keep this cylce going till you have a couple of Golds then start Remodeling Golds into Provinces. When the Provinces start getting low, Remodel and buy anything you can into VP. Coppers -> Estates, Silvers/4$/5$ cards into Dutchys. Since you only need a Remodel and Gold to get a Province the extra clutter will hurt you less than it would had you been going for a Draw Engine or Big money.

That's just how I play it, I've had some success with it. Especially against lower tier players who don't see the Gold-> Province coming.

@DG The link your article is not working, is it fixable? I'd love to see that Game Log.

[WanderingWinder]

@HH, The link is working fine for me. Also, I've found that that remodeling strategy is basically always too slow. In fact, I'm not sure it's faster than Big Money.

[guided]

I haven't put in any extensive study of the very first suggested set in the base game, but didn't some folks basically find that the dominant strategy on that board is some Remodel-based thing?

It's already been mentioned, but Remodel's best ability is turning $6 cards into Provinces (or Platinums into Colonies). This is in contrast to Expand's obvious ability to shine at either end of the game (e.g. Estates -> $5 cards & $5 cards -> Provinces).

[HiveMindEmulator]

Yeah, I agree that the mass remodel thing is too slow. It's generally the first thing people think of when they see remodel, but the problem is that you end up spending your turns incrementing the value of your cards and being unable to actually buy any expensive cards (since you only have 3 cards with which to buy stuff). If you just had other cards instead of remodels, you'd be able to just straight-up buy the cards you are remodeling into.

The two things remodel is particularly good at are:
1. turning estates into $4 cards
2. turning $6+ cards into provinces
You can do these with a single remodel. I think the thing to look for in order for a remodel opening to work is that you can pull off a strategy with a large amount of cheap cards ($4 or less) since that's all you'll be able to buy while remodeling.
DG's coppersmith + mass caravan with some haven support works. It's a good example, because in that game there are no good $5 cards, so you want to live in the $4 or less range.
The classic village+smithy works very well in the "first game" set, which also has weak $5s. It's shocking how fast you can draw your whole deck when you are remodeling estates into smithies while buying villages.
A remodel opening should also be good for some sort of warehouse+conspirator deck.

[Fangz]

There's one more thing it's good at - turning provinces into itself. If I have a good provinces lead and I turn up a $4 or so hand, it's a good idea to pick up remodel. Then every hand I draw remodel + gold, that's a province, and if I draw remodel + province, I might not gain a province but I'll be able to deplete the province pile. That can make all the difference. Otherwise, it's a terminal, so having too many of them aren't really to your advantage.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Oh, one more thing they are good at -- avoiding the no copper clause of grand market, since you're gaining instead of buying.

[tko]

In a game where you know you'll be gunning for 5 Laboratories, and there are no +Buys, the Remodel serves multiple roles.  First, you can Remodel Estates into Silvers or otherwise useful cards.  Second, a turn where you Remodel Silver->Lab and buy a Lab could get you the winning side of a 6/4 split on the Labs.  Finally, that Remodel is like a source of +Buy converting Treasure into VP on late turns.

[rod-]

I had a good time using a turbo-remodel strategy to get 10 peddlers way early today....was peddler,remodel,worker's village, and...who cares what else.  I then screwed up and just remodeled the peddlers to provinces too soon, but still managed 6:2 province split.

[HiveMindEmulator]

In a game where you know you'll be gunning for 5 Laboratories, and there are no +Buys, the Remodel serves multiple roles.  First, you can Remodel Estates into Silvers or otherwise useful cards.  Second, a turn where you Remodel Silver->Lab and buy a Lab could get you the winning side of a 6/4 split on the Labs.  Finally, that Remodel is like a source of +Buy converting Treasure into VP on late turns.

I don't think opening remodel in any race for $5 cards is a good idea, because even though it may help you get an extra one later, it's going to make it hard to get the first. Your first remodel turn can't produce $5 (unless you remodel your silver), and if your silver draws with the remodel or with 2 estates, it won't help you get $5 either, so you may very well be unable to hit $5 before the second shuffle.

[tko]

In a game where you know you'll be gunning for 5 Laboratories, and there are no +Buys, the Remodel serves multiple roles.  First, you can Remodel Estates into Silvers or otherwise useful cards.  Second, a turn where you Remodel Silver->Lab and buy a Lab could get you the winning side of a 6/4 split on the Labs.  Finally, that Remodel is like a source of +Buy converting Treasure into VP on late turns.

I don't think opening remodel in any race for $5 cards is a good idea, because even though it may help you get an extra one later, it's going to make it hard to get the first. Your first remodel turn can't produce $5 (unless you remodel your silver), and if your silver draws with the remodel or with 2 estates, it won't help you get $5 either, so you may very well be unable to hit $5 before the second shuffle.

I agree Silver/Silver might be a stronger open to gun for Labs and then getting Remodel on a convenient $4, but often there's never a convenient $4.  Occassionaly, if you open Remodel/Silver, draw Remodel with Estates once or twice, and you've made up whatever disadvantage you previously perceived.

[DG]

If you can't use the link then you can still go to the Dominion Theory site at http://dominionstrategy.com/ and look under General Strategy - Articles - Sample Game Planning. There may be a few articles under that title but I'm sure the others are worth reading too!

[Thisisnotasmile]

(I think he means the link in the article to the game log, which currently takes you to a "403 Forbidden" page)

Edit: Here it is - http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110416-161627-84a5efa8.html

[AdamH]

Wow, awesome response, and a ton of really insightful information here... thanks to everyone.

I'll try to post my thought process here -- I realize this is basic and trivial to all of you guys, but maybe some other noob will read it and it will help them understand some concepts.

Recently, after 8 or so games of Dominion, I came to the realization that the 10 starting cards are BAD cards, and the faster you can get rid of them, the better off you'll be. I think the extreme case of this is Chapel, which gets rid of these cards super-fast and is recognized as a game-changer.

After reading what you've said, though, I've realized that this concept, which you call trash-for-benefit, is not a "digital" concept (Chapel vs. Non-Chapel), but rather more of an "analog" concept, where each trash-for-benefit card has a certain speed at which it gets rid of the starting cards in your deck. Of course I'm sure that the interactions between this card and others are far more important than this concept, and the side benefits of the card are also important.

All of these things equal, though, it seems that these trash-for-benefit cards have a way to be properly used. Playing successfully with them and watching how they work is an important part of this. I think that's why the content you all have posted is so helpful.

Now that I'm more familiar with this concept, I think that familiarizing myself with the other trash-for-benefit cards would vastly improve my game. It's clear to me that these cards are next to useless when used improperly. Also, the presence of these cards seems to be one of the more significant factors that shapes my overall strategy for each particular game.

It might also be useful to have a general idea of how fast a trash-for-benefit card works, compared to the other trash-for-benefit cards; or possibly this would be useful if we were comparing card combinations instead of just single cards. This might help to gain a good idea of effective ways to trash my starting cards other than just using Chapel.

I think I'll state my understanding for each of the other trash-for-benefit cards in the base set (as a starting point)...

(Chapel) -- Has been discussed at length on here, and has a few awesome articles written about it. I'm not going to embarass myself trying to paraphrase them.

(Remodel) -- We've talked about Remodel. I'll have to play a few games trying this out...

Feast -- This only seems to be good in the early game when there are no other good 4-cost actions available, I have $4 to spend, and I really want a 5-cost card. I'm punished for not having the $5 to spend now by having to spend an action later to get my 5-cost card, and getting to play my awesome 5-cost card one less time than otherwise. If this punishment is less than the relative benifit of having the 5-cost card I want over any of the 4-cost cards, then I buy Feast.

Mine -- This card takes my crappy treasure and turns it into good treasure. It's elegant in the way that it works, in that I immediately get to use my shiny new treasure card, but it's very slow and has no effect on Estates. The main issues I have with Mine are: how many Mines should I have? And at what point in the game does the immediate suckiness of this card (terminal action gets you +$1 and nothing else) start to outweigh its long-term benefits (trashes a bad card, gives you a good card)? I would also think that Mine and Remodel would work well together, since Remodel is best used on Estates and Mine is best used on Coppers, but since they are both terminal actions, it points to buying... Villages! Does this actually work in practice, or does it just become way too slow to work well?

Moneylender -- This card certainly looks a lot better now that I realize that Coppers are bad cards. Unfortunately, it hasn't been available in any games since I had this realization... Is the common usage for this card to trash a Copper and buy a Gold? This seems much, much faster than Mine, and it makes me wonder why I would buy Mine when Moneylender is available. Of course, I'm obviously wrong because Mine costs more than Moneylender; I wonder what I'm missing...

None -- What if no trashing cards are available? Does this mean that my best option is just to try and draw as many cards as possible every turn? Does this mean that Smithy/Big Money is the best move? (I'm sure the answer for the base game is different from the expansions) My original thoughts are that with ten crappy cards cumming up your engine, you want to turn over your deck as much as you can so you can play your good cards more, which points to a *shudder* Village-based engine. People talk a lot more about Smithy/Big Money around here, so I'm inclined to think that's the correct answer, but I'm sort of at a loss for why...

[philosophyguy]

Moneylender -- This card certainly looks a lot better now that I realize that Coppers are bad cards. Unfortunately, it hasn't been available in any games since I had this realization... Is the common usage for this card to trash a Copper and buy a Gold? This seems much, much faster than Mine, and it makes me wonder why I would buy Mine when Moneylender is available. Of course, I'm obviously wrong because Mine costs more than Moneylender; I wonder what I'm missing...

Moneylender is useless when you run out of Coppers, whereas Mine is still useful with Silvers (and is much stronger when Platinums are available). Moneylender is also only a one-time benefit, whereas a card upgraded with Mine will be more valuable every trip through the deck. But, you're right that Moneylender is a very strong $4; it's quite a common opening among better players. Being able to buy an early  Gold with Moneylender is excellent, but even if that fails the Moneylender will usually get you up to the key $5 mark.

[DG]

A major difference between the mine and the moneylender is that with a moneylender you often have to replace the trashed copper with other sources of income such as gold; with a mine you can purchase other useful cards such as laboratories and don't need to find much extra income. Either card can be superior depending upon the kingdom. A mine usually needs to be played multiple times to be a better buy than even silver, generally at least 4 plays, so it can be a weak card in many kingdoms.

[Fangz]

I think usually, I'd go for a moneylender over mine. Don't just look at the costs of cards when deciding which is better!

[HiveMindEmulator]

Feast -- This only seems to be good in the early game when there are no other good 4-cost actions available, I have $4 to spend, and I really want a 5-cost card. I'm punished for not having the $5 to spend now by having to spend an action later to get my 5-cost card, and getting to play my awesome 5-cost card one less time than otherwise. If this punishment is less than the relative benifit of having the 5-cost card I want over any of the 4-cost cards, then I buy Feast.

Actually, feast is more about the $5 cards than the $4 cards. Most $4 cards you would be considering will usually let you get to $5 when you draw them. A lot of them give +$2 or something similar. So when you draw them with $3 in coins your other 4 cards, you can buy the $5 card. The difference is when you draw them with $2 or $4 in coins. Now the feast still gets you a $5 card, whereas the other $4 option either misses the $5 or gets to $6. You want feast if the cost of missing the $5 card is greater than the benefit of getting to $6 fast. This is usually the case with the $5 attacks, but sometimes the case with other combos (e.g. vault+grand market).

Is the common usage for this card to trash a Copper and buy a Gold? This seems much, much faster than Mine, and it makes me wonder why I would buy Mine when Moneylender is available. Of course, I'm obviously wrong because Mine costs more than Moneylender; I wonder what I'm missing...

The mine gains the treasure in hand, allowing you to buy something else. So you trash a copper for a silver AND something else.

None -- What if no trashing cards are available? Does this mean that my best option is just to try and draw as many cards as possible every turn? Does this mean that Smithy/Big Money is the best move? (I'm sure the answer for the base game is different from the expansions) My original thoughts are that with ten crappy cards cumming up your engine, you want to turn over your deck as much as you can so you can play your good cards more, which points to a *shudder* Village-based engine. People talk a lot more about Smithy/Big Money around here, so I'm inclined to think that's the correct answer, but I'm sort of at a loss for why...

If there is no trashing, "village-based" stuff is really bad. You'll have a hard time drawing you village with your drawing cards enough to really do anything good. Money-heavy strategies with a few terminal actions tend to be better here.

[rinkworks]

After reading what you've said, though, I've realized that this concept, which you call trash-for-benefit...

It's not important, but just to sync with the terminology people here seem to use, Chapel wouldn't be classified as a trash-for-benefit card.  It's just a trasher.  Trash-for-benefit would be a card that gives you some benefit (above and beyond any benefit the trashing itself provides) if you trash something to get it.  In the base set, that's Moneylender, Mine, and Remodel.  Some of the expansions have more interesting trash-for-benefit cards.  With Salvager (in Seaside) and Apprentice (in Alchemy), sometimes the right play is to use them to trash a Province (!) -- something you'd never do with Chapel, which is only good for getting rid of cards you didn't want anyway.

Mine -- This card takes my crappy treasure and turns it into good treasure. It's elegant in the way that it works, in that I immediately get to use my shiny new treasure card, but it's very slow and has no effect on Estates. The main issues I have with Mine are: how many Mines should I have? And at what point in the game does the immediate suckiness of this card (terminal action gets you +$1 and nothing else) start to outweigh its long-term benefits (trashes a bad card, gives you a good card)? I would also think that Mine and Remodel would work well together, since Remodel is best used on Estates and Mine is best used on Coppers, but since they are both terminal actions, it points to buying... Villages! Does this actually work in practice, or does it just become way too slow to work well?

You're asking all the right questions.  Donald said once that one of the $5 cards in the base set could have arguably been priced at $4.  He didn't specify which, but I suspect it was Mine.  As you've pointed out, if you Mine a treasure, the net benefit to your hand that turn is just $1, which means you'd have been no worse off if that Mine was a Copper instead!  It would have provided the same monetary benefit and not consumed an action to do it.  That's counterbalanced by the fact that you reap that benefit again every time you draw the new treasure card on the next shuffle.

So yeah, Mines are best when you get them very early.  Late in the game, you'll probably get more benefit from trashing them, if you can, than letting them suck up a card slot in future hands.  For all these reasons, I suspect the usual answer to the question "How many Mines should I have?" is 1, and almost never more than 2.

None -- What if no trashing cards are available? Does this mean that my best option is just to try and draw as many cards as possible every turn? Does this mean that Smithy/Big Money is the best move? (I'm sure the answer for the base game is different from the expansions) My original thoughts are that with ten crappy cards cumming up your engine, you want to turn over your deck as much as you can so you can play your good cards more, which points to a *shudder* Village-based engine. People talk a lot more about Smithy/Big Money around here, so I'm inclined to think that's the correct answer, but I'm sort of at a loss for why...

It does really depend on what other cards are on the table.  Sometimes Smithy-Big Money is the answer, but if there are good attacks (Witch being one of the best, not just in the base set but in any set), or some interesting combos (try Festival + Library sometime, if you haven't already -- playing a bunch of Festivals provides you with money, each one allowing a subsequent Library to draw an additional card), that may be a better choice.

By the way, Village-based engines can be ridiculously powerful.  The reason a lot of articles here are down on Villages is just because new players tend to buy them too early (before they have other actions to use with them) or too much (resulting in long turns of many Villages played and no money to show for it afterwards).  So the articles emphasize the fact that Villages are weaker than they are often perceived to be.  But they're extremely powerful in the right situations.  Combined, for example, with Torturer (from the Intrigue set), they're part of a virtually unstoppable strategy.  Unfortunately there are fewer great uses for them in the base set, and you're right to shy away from the Village+Smithy engine, which doesn't play as well as it sounds like it should.  But if you can Chapel away your starting cards (buying at least a couple Silver as you do so), a Village-based engine has some great potential -- sometimes as a winning strategy, and always as a great exercise for learning how a multi-faceted engine might work.  For example, try mixing up Witches, Council Rooms, and/or Militias into a Chapeled Village deck and see what happens.

[rod-]

  With Salvager (in Seaside) and Apprentice (in Alchemy), sometimes the right play is to use them to trash a Province (!) -- something you'd never do with Chapel, which is only good for getting rid of cards you didn't want anyway.

I've masqueraded provinces before, on purpose, and have been in situations where chapeling them would have been the right play...There are circumstances(ahead 5-0, mostly)

[Fangz]

What?!?

[Razzishi]

I've trashed a Province to Lookout when the other options were both Minions and I was up 4-0 or something like that.  It was far far more important to keep every Minion I had so that I could buy more Provinces.  I'm pretty sure if I had the ability to Chapel a Province when up 5-0 without affecting the rest of my turn I'd consider doing it, but it would depend on what my opponent has been doing.  If they're building up to a mega-turn my current VP total might not be important as if they manage to buy out all the VP I'd lose regardless; I need to get the amount of VP in the supply to be less than the VP in my deck, and if I have too much VP in my deck it will get too hard to deplete the supply.  If they're Gardening, then I'm probably not giving up my points.

[rogerclee]

Remodel is part of the family of endgame accelerators. Of the endgame accelerators:

Remodel, Expand, Salvager, Apprentice, and Forge(?)

Remodel is undoubtedly the weakest overall, but it is conveniently written to turn platinums into colonies and golds into provinces. They tend to be a very valuable random buy near the end of the game, especially in a money-type deck since:

1) Money decks vs non-money decks tend to jump ahead in green in the beginning, then try to keep the lead in the endgame as they get dragged down by green. Remodel helps end the game quickly.
2) You are very likely to draw a top treasure card with your remodel, which is huge in the endgame. Sometimes all you need is to remodel a province into another province to win, also.