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[SirPeebles]

I've seen some negative comments about zaps and adventure mode, but I kind of like the puzzle element they add.  For example, going through Base Set Act I, I quickly discovered the usually the best use of my two zaps was to replace some starting coppers with silvers -- this is way more important than starting with a VP lead.  Eventually I reached a bot that used a straightforward BM-Council Room strategy.  This is already a fairly strong strategy (particularly for a bot), but what makes it especially difficult to overcome is that this opponent begins with 4 copper, 3 silver, 1 estate, 2 duchies  to my 7 copper, 1 estate, 2 curses.  At least, until I use my two zaps.  Zapping my copper into silver failed every time.  I still couldn't compete in the BM race due to the 8 VP deficit, and I couldn't build an engine fast enough.  Eventually I realized that an engine was my only hope and chose to instead zap his silver in copper to slow his BM rush.  This allowed me to grab a Remodel, Market, and steadily build up a Smithy-Village engine with a few Cellars to pull ahead.

In summary, the choices you're presented with your allotted zaps provide an interesting bit of strategy in sculpting the starting conditions (which are usually tipped against you) to most benefit your plan.

[Ratsia]

In summary, the choices you're presented with your allotted zaps provide an interesting bit of strategy in sculpting the starting conditions (which are usually tipped against you) to most benefit your plan.

In isolated cases, yes. The problem is that for majority of cases the decisions are very straightforward. You nicely pointed out that the zaps might help newbies realize the importance of money over VP in the early game, but later on you will simply be forced to spend the zaps on downgrading the opponent's provinces to prevent them finishing before there is any chance of building a competitive deck. The issue is not their VP lead, but the fact that the game length is dramatically reduced if the province pile is shorter.

One way to improve the zaps could perhaps be to allow a headstart for engines as well, so that you would really be choosing a strategy at the beginning of the game. That is, don't just replace money and VP with cards from the same family, but allow buying also action cards with zaps. There's more to decide between "do I replace my copper with silver or village" than there is between "do I replace my copper or my estate". The former will actually depend on the kingdom, whereas for the latter the decision is trivial except for some extreme kingdoms (perhaps Duke could warrant starting with Duchy instead of Estate).

[SirPeebles]

I've change my mind already on zaps.

I made this topic just after completing a match where, by using my zaps just right and crafting finely tuned engine, I was able to just squeak past a big money strategy.  This was satisfying.  I had hopes that adventure mode would continue to be rich with carefully balanced matches where a clever pairing of zaps and strategies would be need to progress, almost like a sequence of puzzles.

But I quickly discovered that this was not the case.  The last match of Act 1, for example.   How can you overcome CSSSSSSDDP with CCCCCCEEEE and two zaps?  I'm sure there are boards where this is possible, particularly if the bot is using poor enough strategy.  But on this one, with this bot's script?  Has anyone done this?  I eventually just bought some zaps with the dominion coins I'd accumulated.  But then, how many zaps should I use to make it an interesting match?  I don't know, and I couldn't be bothered to test it, so I just bought a bunch of zaps, brought my opponent down to coppers and estates and gave myself a fistful of silvers and steamrolled over the match.  I know it's in beta, and I agree that adventure mode should not be getting priority at this time.  But hopefully some day some thought can be put into balancing these matches better.

By the way, is there anyone to unlock the promo cards without playing adventure mode?

[Donald X.]

I made this topic just after completing a match where, by using my zaps just right and crafting finely tuned engine, I was able to just squeak past a big money strategy.  This was satisfying.  I had hopes that adventure mode would continue to be rich with carefully balanced matches where a clever pairing of zaps and strategies would be need to progress, almost like a sequence of puzzles.

Right, if the number of free zaps is enough to beat the level, then it's a puzzle, how do you best use your zaps. Sometimes an easy puzzle but still. And when you beat the level, you beat the level at its defined difficulty level. It's satisfying, even for levels with no special difficulty, where it's just a regular game of Dominion.

But when the bot has six silvers to start and you have two zaps, you have to use non-free-zaps to compete. The non-free-zaps are of course free - you buy them with dominion coins that you get for playing at all. But still you lose that feeling of beating the level as given. Now you are setting the difficulty by how many zaps you spend. You can try to spend the minimum number (using a non-free zap permanently increases that level's zaps, so you can inch up), but then you will have games where it seems like shuffle luck will let you beat it with your current number of zaps, if only you endlessly play and lose.

I have written many long emails to them about this. Having the zaps stick around was an improvement, but it's still not entertaining enough to want to play through the act 2's. Act 1 is fun most of the way. Well I haven't played through them all as they stand today, and some crashing levels need to be fixed before I can, so maybe they aren't, but Dark Ages Act 1 is fun most of the way.

But I quickly discovered that this was not the case.  The last match of Act 1, for example.   How can you overcome CSSSSSSDDP with CCCCCCEEEE and two zaps?  I'm sure there are boards where this is possible, particularly if the bot is using poor enough strategy.  But on this one, with this bot's script?  Has anyone done this?

I wouldn't think so! Originally act one ended with the computer having 7 copper 3 province. Kirian beat that with no zaps. I beat all but two levels with no zaps, and only needed the free zaps on two levels - I think I used three on the last level, but it gave you five. Now it gives you two and the computer has all that Silver.

I'm not aware of the bots having special level-based scripts - I think the bot is specified (conqueror etc.) and that's that. So the early levels of act 1 give you serf, and maybe a few have the attack-loving bot, but you know, it's the regular bots.

By the way, is there anyone to unlock the promo cards without playing adventure mode?

I have been told that there will be another way to get the VP tokens, specifically involving tournaments.

[SirPeebles]

Thanks for the detailed reply, Donald.  I feel better knowing that you're fully aware of both the pitfalls and potential here.

[Kirian]

But I quickly discovered that this was not the case.  The last match of Act 1, for example.   How can you overcome CSSSSSSDDP with CCCCCCEEEE and two zaps?  I'm sure there are boards where this is possible, particularly if the bot is using poor enough strategy.  But on this one, with this bot's script?  Has anyone done this?

I wouldn't think so! Originally act one ended with the computer having 7 copper 3 province. Kirian beat that with no zaps. I beat all but two levels with no zaps, and only needed the free zaps on two levels - I think I used three on the last level, but it gave you five. Now it gives you two and the computer has all that Silver.

Yeah, there's a huge difference between 7C3P vs. 7C3Curse, and 6S(!)1C2D1P vs. 6C4E!  Frankly, under most circumstances I think I'd rather start with 4 Curses than 3 Estates.

And I think it was actually Seaside Lv20 that I beat with no Zaps, and that was only with excellent luck and two or three tries, just to see if it could be done.

[ycz6]

Frankly, under most circumstances I think I'd rather start with 4 Curses than 3 Estates.

Interesting!

[Captain_Frisk]

Frankly, under most circumstances I think I'd rather start with 4 Curses than 3 Estates.

Interesting!

I'm trying really hard to understand why this would be true.  I could see the reverse (I would rather start with 3 curses than 4 estates), but short of Mountebank, and maybe ambassador, I don't understand why you would ever want curse over estate, and I can almost never think of why I would want more dead cards over less.

[GendoIkari]

Frankly, under most circumstances I think I'd rather start with 4 Curses than 3 Estates.

Interesting!

I'm trying really hard to understand why this would be true.  I could see the reverse (I would rather start with 3 curses than 4 estates), but short of Mountebank, and maybe ambassador, I don't understand why you would ever want curse over estate, and I can almost never think of why I would want more dead cards over less.

I'm pretty sure that's a typo, based on the possible starting decks he was commenting on. He was comparing the 4 Estates deck to the 3 Curse deck.

[Donald X.]

Incidentally I strongly suspect that the starting decks will all change to be what I'm typing up for them to be.

[GendoIkari]

Incidentally I strongly suspect that the starting decks will all change to be what I'm typing up for them to be.

I would like to be able to use zaps to start with a deck consisting of 2 King's Courts and 3 Bridges (only 5 cards total).

[Insomniac]

Incidentally I strongly suspect that the starting decks will all change to be what I'm typing up for them to be.

This, this change should happen sooner rather than later, like next beta build soon.

[Kirian]

Frankly, under most circumstances I think I'd rather start with 4 Curses than 3 Estates.

Interesting!

I'm trying really hard to understand why this would be true.  I could see the reverse (I would rather start with 3 curses than 4 estates), but short of Mountebank, and maybe ambassador, I don't understand why you would ever want curse over estate, and I can almost never think of why I would want more dead cards over less.

I'm pretty sure that's a typo, based on the possible starting decks he was commenting on. He was comparing the 4 Estates deck to the 3 Curse deck.

Yes, indeed, that was a typo.  3 Curses and 7 Copper > 4 Estates and 6 Copper.