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[Morgrim7]

Lied how? Spring is typically March 20- June 21, right?

Omg you are right. That has gotta be the stupidest thing I have ever said...

[werothegreat]

Lied how? Spring is typically March 20- June 21, right?

Omg you are right. That has gotta be the stupidest thing I have ever said...

Lied in the spirit of things.  When people think "Spring," they don't think "June."  June is summer.  If you say you're releasing in "Spring", the expectation is March-May.

[theory]

Here's something I don't understand.  Weather-wise, I think of the "peak" of summer as the midpoint between June 21 and Sept 21, which makes sense.  But then why is the longest day of the year the first day of summer?  Shouldn't the longest day of the year be the middle day of summer?

[theory]

Turns out Yahoo! Answers has the best answer!

Astronomically speaking you would be justified in calling the summer solstice the middle of summer. In fact, the Celtics have a festival held near the summer solstice called the Midsummer's Day festival, so they know that astronomically it is the middle of summer. But meteorological summer is based on average temperature and not the position of the sun. The Earth has a large heat capacity, which means it takes a long time to warm up and a long time to cool off. The result is the the weather doesn't get really hot until well after the peak solar heating has already come and gone. And the same for winter. The coldest weather doesn't come until quite some time after the date of minimum heating has been passed.

[Tables]

I was going to give that explanation, roughly, but that said it better than I could.

[SirPeebles]

theory, roughly speaking, you should of the longest day of the year as being the day when average temperatures are increasing most rapidly.  That isn't the same thing as the hottest day.  Again speaking in averages, you should expect the hottest day to take place some time AFTER the longest day.

[Kirian]

We already had this discussion elsewhere, but I can't remember where.

Astronomers define the seasons with the solstices and equinoxes as the start of the seasons.  Meteorologists use the first of the month in question, e.g. 01 June for summer.  Celts and neopagans, and many Asians use the solstices and equinoxes as the midpoint of the seasons.

[WanderingWinder]

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7539.msg215341#msg215341

[Schneau]

Turns out Yahoo! Answers has the best answer!

Astronomically speaking you would be justified in calling the summer solstice the middle of summer. In fact, the Celtics have a festival held near the summer solstice called the Midsummer's Day festival, so they know that astronomically it is the middle of summer. But meteorological summer is based on average temperature and not the position of the sun. The Earth has a large heat capacity, which means it takes a long time to warm up and a long time to cool off. The result is the the weather doesn't get really hot until well after the peak solar heating has already come and gone. And the same for winter. The coldest weather doesn't come until quite some time after the date of minimum heating has been passed.

I have always thought of it something like this. Now that I think about it, I wonder if it is sort of like acceleration vs velocity vs position in physics. The amount the sun warms the Earth is like acceleration, and it goes through a periodic cycle. The difference of day-to-day temperatures is like speed. And the temperature on a given day is like position. So, the warming (acceleration) peaks on the summer solstice, which is before the peak of the day-to-day temps (speed), which is before the peak of actual temperature (position). This would lead to something that looks like these graphs:



I might be slightly off in this metaphor, but I'm guessing it works something like that.

[SirPeebles]

That's essentially correct, Schneau.  The hottest day is when temperature is largest.  The longest day is (statistically) when the derivative of temperature is largest.

This same effect shows up in all sorts of system dynamics with negative feedback loops causing oscillation about an equilibrium.

To use a finance/ economics example, the day is which stock prices increase the most is not when you want to sell.  Even though the stock price doesnt increase as much in the following days, it is still going up.  You want to sell just when the price is about stop increasing and begin to decrease (modulo transaction costs).

[Schneau]

That's essentially correct, Schneau.  The hottest day is when temperature is largest.  The longest day is (statistically) when the derivative of temperature is largest.

This same effect shows up in all sorts of system dynamics with negative feedback loops causing oscillation about an equilibrium.

To use a finance/ economics example, the day is which stock prices increase the most is not when you want to sell.  Even though the stock price doesnt increase as much in the following days, it is still going up.  You want to sell just when the price is about stop increasing and begin to decrease (modulo transaction costs).

You said it much better than me. Thanks!

[werothegreat]

Even so, we still get weather typical of the season before the solstice or equinox - have any of you (in the northern hemisphere) ever gone outside in early June and thought "wow, typical spring weather!"?  Yes, putting "midsummer" in the actual middle of summer doesn't make meteorological sense, but putting it smack dab at the beginning doesn't make sense either.  If I were in charge of season labelling, then Dec 1 through Feb 28/29 would be winter, Mar 1 through May 30 would be spring, June 1 through Aug 31 would be summer, and Sep 1 through Nov 30 would be autumn.  So, by MY definition of "spring," Jay was lying. 

[NoMoreFun]

That's essentially correct, Schneau.  The hottest day is when temperature is largest.  The longest day is (statistically) when the derivative of temperature is largest.

Do you mean integral? The largest derivative of temperature would correspond to the most rapid increase.

At any rate the length of a day is with reference to the time the sun is in the sky. Temperature is beholden to a number of other factors.

[NoMoreFun]

Here's something I don't understand.  Weather-wise, I think of the "peak" of summer as the midpoint between June 21 and Sept 21, which makes sense.  But then why is the longest day of the year the first day of summer?  Shouldn't the longest day of the year be the middle day of summer?

It's the 21st day of summer.

Edit: Well at least the way I was taught growing up, seasons (officially) begin on the first day of their respective months. Of course being Australian, Spring begins on September 1 for me.

[werothegreat]

Here's something I don't understand.  Weather-wise, I think of the "peak" of summer as the midpoint between June 21 and Sept 21, which makes sense.  But then why is the longest day of the year the first day of summer?  Shouldn't the longest day of the year be the middle day of summer?

It's the 21st day of summer.

Edit: Well at least the way I was taught growing up, seasons (officially) begin on the first day of their respective months. Of course being Australian, Spring begins on September 1 for me.

See, that makes sense.  In the US, we start seasons on the solstice/equinox.

[enfynet]

In Ohio, and other midwest/great lakes states, Summer is July-August, Winter is Nov-April, and spring/fall fill the gaps, respectively.

[Kirian]

Even so, we still get weather typical of the season before the solstice or equinox - have any of you (in the northern hemisphere) ever gone outside in early June and thought "wow, typical spring weather!"?  Yes, putting "midsummer" in the actual middle of summer doesn't make meteorological sense, but putting it smack dab at the beginning doesn't make sense either.  If I were in charge of season labelling, then Dec 1 through Feb 28/29 would be winter, Mar 1 through May 30 would be spring, June 1 through Aug 31 would be summer, and Sep 1 through Nov 30 would be autumn.  So, by MY definition of "spring," Jay was lying. 

That definition is the one used by meteorologists and, as NoMoreFun notes, Aussies.

That's essentially correct, Schneau.  The hottest day is when temperature is largest.  The longest day is (statistically) when the derivative of temperature is largest.

Except that it isn't.  The longest day (21 Jun) comes well after the day when the derivative of temperature is highest (around 01 May).  Temperature only lags insolation by a month or so, not three months.

In Ohio, and other midwest/great lakes states, Summer is July-August, Winter is Nov-April, and spring/fall fill the gaps, respectively.

01 Oct to 30 Nov: Almost Winter
01 Dec to 30 Mar: Winter
01 Apr to 15 May: Still Winter
16 May to 30 Sept: Construction

[eHalcyon]

Even so, we still get weather typical of the season before the solstice or equinox - have any of you (in the northern hemisphere) ever gone outside in early June and thought "wow, typical spring weather!"?

Depends on your definition of "typical".  Fun fact -- it snowed today!

[werothegreat]

If only this thread were actually able to talk about Guilds cards, and not be a pages-long discussion on what "spring" actually means.

[Kirian]

If only this thread were actually able to talk about Guilds cards, and not be a pages-long discussion on what "spring" actually means.

...then this wouldn't be f.DS, would it?

We are quite literally discussing edge cases for Spring.  It's like a tiny microcosm of the forum.

[jsh357]

Dominion: Seasons. 

[SirPeebles]

If only this thread were actually able to talk about Guilds cards, and not be a pages-long discussion on what "spring" actually means.

...then this wouldn't be f.DS, would it?

We are quite literally discussing edge cases for Spring.  It's like a tiny microcosm of the forum.

Turns out that it literally depends on the kingdom.

[clb]

Previously, Donald had mentioned that he wasn't likely to do previews because he wasn't given a firm release date. Since RGG thinks "June", can I hope that Donald might be able to do previews? If it does release at Origins, that is a firm release date, right? Previews? Please?

[michaeljb]

Given the last couple expansions, I don't think we should expect previews until at least late May...

[clb]

Given the last couple expansions, I don't think we should expect previews until at least late May...

I am just hoping to get them at all! May is fine. The way I had read DXV's previous comments, it sounded pretty pessimistic about seeing any previews.