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Author Topic: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"  (Read 12779 times)

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NoMoreFun

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Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« on: September 22, 2012, 03:50:34 am »
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I imagined that the final product of these contests would be an expansion that, as much as possible, resembles a real dominion expansions. As you'd know if you read the secret histories, these expansions have size constraints.

Let's pretend that the final result of this contest is a 300 card "big box" expansion. If these next 4 challenges have a single winner, and none of them are victory cards, then we have 20*11+3*13=259 cards in a theoretical box for this set. This leaves 41 cards

I always found the constraints Donald X had to work with interesting, and if you look at the secret histories, they actually played a large part in what cards were and weren't included in the game.

It probably won't be possible to force a round number of cards in the final expansion, even if we go up to a 500 card box (which, IMO, we should).

Possible ideas for how to fill out the remaining cards:
*Another card for gaining prizes as one of the challenges, combined with new prize cards as a supplementary challenge
*A supply pile with deliberately fewer cards (similar to how rats has more)
*A "supply pile" consisting of a single card, where buying the card produces some kind of effect instead of gaining
*Replacements for any number of starting coppers (similar to shelters)
*A new "base" card that's included in games with cards from this expansion in the supply
*New cards for the top of neglected supply piles in the base game (eg a copper that rewards you if you buy it, a worse curse that gets passed around from player to player)
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Archetype

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 11:40:49 am »
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I'd be against substituting Coppers. I'd make Pawnshop and Aqua Vitae so much weaker.
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Kirian

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 04:24:35 pm »
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I'd be against substituting Coppers. I'd make Pawnshop and Aqua Vitae so much weaker.

This would be easily dealt with by changing the text of Aqua Vitae and Pawn Shop, since they're part of the expansion--much as the trashing theme makes OGE and Hovel more useful.
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One Armed Man

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2012, 08:33:19 pm »
+1

A one-of card in an explored concept:

Subterfuge
$5 [no-type]
When you would gain this, you may gain a Curse. If you gain a Curse, +$6, +1Buy. This card remains in the supply.

How about a pile of VP cards that was ordered from lowest cost to highest cost:
$3 1VP Empty Domain
$4 2VP Pitiful Domain
$5 3VP Lesser Domain
$6 4VP Domain
$7 5VP Successful Domain
$8 6VP Thriving Domain
$9 7VP Great Domain
$10 8VP Grand Domain
(3-player and above)
$11 9VP Magnificent Domain
$12 10VP Sovereign Domain
$13 11VP Imperial Domain
$14 12VP Legendary Domain

An Action that is weird:
Community
$4 - Action
If you have an odd number of Communities in play: +3 Actions
If you have an even number of Communities in play: +$3

(obviously the even number ability can be adjusted).
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ConMan

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2012, 09:22:08 pm »
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I like the pile of increasing value VP cards, and I think it would work best with a Colony-style rule addition that emptying the pile ends the game.
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Sakako

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2012, 09:54:38 pm »
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An Action that is weird:
Community
$4 - Action
If you have an odd number of Communities in play: +3 Actions
If you have an even number of Communities in play: +$3

(obviously the even number ability can be adjusted).

So kind of like my Zealot for the non-terminal draw competition, but slightly nerfed... 3 actions is a bit much though don't you think? Stock up on these and drawing cards like Hunting Grounds, and this card gets ridiculously broken.

Also the pile of increasing VP value cards should maybe start at $1 for 1 VP. Otherwise nobody would ever buy it.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2012, 10:29:59 pm »
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An Action that is weird:
Community
$4 - Action
If you have an odd number of Communities in play: +3 Actions
If you have an even number of Communities in play: +$3

(obviously the even number ability can be adjusted).

So kind of like my Zealot for the non-terminal draw competition, but slightly nerfed... 3 actions is a bit much though don't you think? Stock up on these and drawing cards like Hunting Grounds, and this card gets ridiculously broken.

I kind of doubt +3 actions would make it broken, actually.  Since Community does not provide +1 card, it makes it slightly more difficult to have the village and the drawer in the same hand.  Also, playing a second one of these doesn't give you an extra action.  Community x2 leaves you with +2 actions, +$3.  Village x2 leaves you with +3 actions, +2 Cards.  Sometimes you'll prefer the money, absolutely, but the extra cards are important for engines and other combos.
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One Armed Man

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 10:43:09 pm »
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Also the pile of increasing VP value cards should maybe start at $1 for 1 VP. Otherwise nobody would ever buy it.

At $1 for 1VP, the card is just superior to  Estate, and the pile would always be better than the regular counterparts unless (one or more of the following):
1) The cards get more expensive more quickly than they gain VP
2) There are less cards in the stack
3) There are 2 or more of each "level" of VP.
4) The cards have some other negative ability
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Sakako

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2012, 05:38:57 am »
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But at $3 for 1 VP, and $5 for 3 VP, and $8 for 6 VP, that's like an Estate, a Duchy, and a Province, except you have to pay more for the first Estate. Nobody's going to buy into that.
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One Armed Man

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2012, 09:42:51 am »
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Sure, the pile has a barrier to entry, but it might also create tactical play on which pile to buy a card from. Also, the 3 for 1 is definitely weak, but you might want to use it in trash for benefit. If you end up with one Domain in your hand and have an Upgrade variant, you can just move up the ladder. For a bishop chain, a golden deck using this pile gets more dangerous over time. Menagerie and Harvest like the different names. Hunting Party doesn't. Forge might be able to make use of the strange costs. Hoard players can reach into the pile and still ramp up their money. Crossroads helps. To really conquer the pile, +Buy and a fat deck might be necessary. Also, the idea might not work, I haven't tried it.

Another idea. I can't find the old "New Prizes" thread, but here is one:
Legendary Sword
0* - Action - Attack - Prize
+$2
You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, each other player reveals card from the top of their deck until they reveal a card costing exactly $2 in coins more than your trashed card, trashing it and discarding the others.
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Archetype

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2012, 12:17:04 pm »
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Legendary Sword
0* - Action - Attack - Prize
+$2
You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, each other player reveals card from the top of their deck until they reveal a card costing exactly $2 in coins more than your trashed card, trashing it and discarding the others.

Even as a prize, I think that is too powerful. Trash a gold from my hand to eliminate one of your Provinces? Yes please. Not only does this cause a 6VP swing, but also hinders the opponent's Tournaments by not allowing them to activate it. Allowing you to take all the prizes.

I think it's a pretty cool idea, but, especially with the +2$ bonus (there is reason Saboteur doesn't give the user any benefits), it's just too powerful. As soon as someone gets it, they control the game.
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ConMan

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2012, 07:33:27 pm »
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In an attempt to make the idea vaguely work ...

Trash a card from your hand. Every other player reveals the top 3 cards from their deck, and trashes one card with the same cost as the one your trashed, discarding the remaining cards.

I can see why DXV got rid of most of the trashing attacks, since balancing something like this is tricky. This attempts to turn it into either trashing your junk and letting everyone else do the same, Bishop-style, or trash your good card in an attempt to catch theirs. I wonder whether it needs another bonus, like a +Cards (I'm thinking possibly +2 Cards after trashing).
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One Armed Man

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2012, 11:13:26 pm »
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Trash a card from your hand. Every other player reveals the top 3 cards from their deck, and trashes one card with the same cost as the one your trashed, discarding the remaining cards.
That can whiff really easily.

My trashing prize has hole in its play. If you have Legendary Sword and your opponent has 1 province, you cannot safely trash a gold to snag the Province. That is, unless you already know they don't have the province in their hand. You know it isn't in their hand when you play Tournament. So, if you have a hand of Tournament, Gold, Province and two other things, you can take that lead on prizes. Still, you are wasting $3 of buying power and trashing your gold to attack that province. Someone will have to come up with a workaround.
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zahlman

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2012, 11:41:37 pm »
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As long as we're talking about "filling out the box", how about doing all the other stuff that an official set would entail? I'm thinking in particular of

- Rules clarifications of any new mechanics (do we need anything?)

- Putting together recommended example Kingdoms

Anything else?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2012, 12:27:13 am »
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My trashing prize has hole in its play. If you have Legendary Sword and your opponent has 1 province, you cannot safely trash a gold to snag the Province. That is, unless you already know they don't have the province in their hand. You know it isn't in their hand when you play Tournament. So, if you have a hand of Tournament, Gold, Province and two other things, you can take that lead on prizes. Still, you are wasting $3 of buying power and trashing your gold to attack that province. Someone will have to come up with a workaround.

That's a very tiny hole though.  And I think trashing the Gold is usually worth it, unless you're really, really far behind in treasure.

But actually, I think a bigger abuse is trashing your Silver (or other $3 cards) to trash power $5s or sacrificing $4 cards to take out their Gold.
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Sakako

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2012, 01:31:35 am »
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In terms of numbers, 41 can be made quite easily in a number of different ways:

5 + 36 (but we probably don't want a set of 5 unless it's prizes, and anyway, there are too many victory cards in set to make 36 easily)
10 + 15 + 16 (this is the one I'd opt for, allowing for 1 base card, 1 pile-and-a-half, and 1 more card)
11 + 30 (now the 11 could come from a randomizer card for a single-card pile (a la Knights), and the 30 could be 20 + 10, 15 + 15, or 3 * 10 or whatever. This could also be useful.)

Since I've just finished university, I'd be happy to host a contest or two for extra designs.
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One Armed Man

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2012, 11:06:30 am »
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11 is a regular action or treasure. 13 is a Victory card. I don't know where you got your numbers from Sakako
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One Armed Man

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2012, 11:15:40 am »
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Legendary Sword 2
0* - Action - Attack - Prize
+$2
You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, each other player reveals cards from the top of their deck until they reveal a card costing exactly $1 in coins more than your trashed card, trashing it and discarding the others.

This version is less exploitable. You have to trash a $7 to hit a province. Your silver only takes out a Tournament (it is better to trash your own terminal, since you can't usually play early game terminals after a terminal prize. An estate takes out a silver. A Curse or Copper trash usually just discards the opponents' decks.

My idea for filling the box involves making 5 more prizes and a prize giving card: Museum maybe. In any game with a Prize-giver, you play with 3 + the number of players random revealed prizes. 2-player games have a random 5 prizes and 4 player games have a random 7 prizes to create more incentive to play prize-gainers (Tournament is less powerful in 4player because there are more hands that can reveal Provinces and less prizes per person).

I found the other thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2338.msg36419#msg36419
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 11:20:13 am by One Armed Man »
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AJD

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2012, 11:23:08 am »
+1

Even as a prize, I think that is too powerful. Trash a gold from my hand to eliminate one of your Provinces? Yes please.

How different is that functionality from Remodel?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 11:39:35 am by AJD »
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Archetype

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2012, 12:33:52 pm »
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Even as a prize, I think that is too powerful. Trash a gold from my hand to eliminate one of your Provinces? Yes please.

How different is that functionality from Remodel?
In a 2 player game, the effect is the nearly the same (except of course a couple edge cases). But in a multilayer game, this is way too strong.
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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2012, 12:36:59 pm »
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Legendary Sword 2
0* - Action - Attack - Prize
+$2
You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, each other player reveals cards from the top of their deck until they reveal a card costing exactly $1 in coins more than your trashed card, trashing it and discarding the others.

I like this one a lot. Like you said, you need to trash a $7 card to eliminate a Province. Seems balanced, but still incredibly strong in multiplayer. That should be fine since it is a Prize.

Are you sure it needs the +2$?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2012, 12:47:57 pm »
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Even as a prize, I think that is too powerful. Trash a gold from my hand to eliminate one of your Provinces? Yes please.

How different is that functionality from Remodel?
In a 2 player game, the effect is the nearly the same (except of course a couple edge cases). But in a multilayer game, this is way too strong.

Is it really? If you trash one Province from everyone else, isn't it like gaining one yourself? But it does suck for one player if they lose a Province and the other two don't.

I still think that trashing $5 and $6 cards is more abuseable than trashing Provinces. That case is not comparable to Remodel.
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One Armed Man

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2012, 01:34:00 pm »
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Other silly prizes:

Exaltation
0* - Action - Prize
+2 Cards
Set aside any number of cards from your hand, returning them to your deck at the end of the game.

Royal Guardian
0* - Action - Reaction - Prize
+1 Card +3 Actions +1 VP
---------------------
When another player plays an Attack card, you can reveal this card from your hand. If you do, you are unaffected by that attack.

Untold Riches
0* - Action - Prize
Gain an Action or Treasure card [from the Supply].
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Archetype

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2012, 01:42:56 pm »
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Even as a prize, I think that is too powerful. Trash a gold from my hand to eliminate one of your Provinces? Yes please.

How different is that functionality from Remodel?
In a 2 player game, the effect is the nearly the same (except of course a couple edge cases). But in a multilayer game, this is way too strong.

Is it really? If you trash one Province from everyone else, isn't it like gaining one yourself? But it does suck for one player if they lose a Province and the other two don't.

It would be swingy, for the above reason. But Tournament is swingy as it is, so I probably shouldn't judge.
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zahlman

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Re: Contest Idea: Filling out "the box"
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2012, 06:30:57 pm »
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Is it really? If you trash one Province from everyone else, isn't it like gaining one yourself? But it does suck for one player if they lose a Province and the other two don't.

I still think that trashing $5 and $6 cards is more abuseable than trashing Provinces. That case is not comparable to Remodel.

Why would it be less comparable - because of the fact that the attacker is choosing a $3 or $4, and the defender is not choosing which $5 or $6?
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