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Author Topic: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!  (Read 42011 times)

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rinkworks

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Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« on: September 20, 2012, 02:26:36 pm »
+2

Submission Rules

* Submit no more than one card per person per challenge.  You do not need to submit for all challenges if you don't want to, but of course you can't win if you don't compete.
* Submit your cards to me via this forum's messaging system.  Submissions made after each week's deadline cannot be accepted.
* Each card you submit must have a name, a cost, a list of types, and the exact wording that should appear on the card.  Also include a brief description of any special design considerations (e.g., Stash having a unique back), but do NOT include any other information, such as strategic commentary or examples about it would play.
* Although you must submit names for each of your cards, the names will not be listed on the voting ballots, so make sure your card's appeal does not depend on your choice of name.
* I will accept revisions to your contest entries provided they are submitted to me before the deadline.  If you submit a revision to an entry you have previously submitted to me, resubmit your revised card(s) in their entirety.  That is, don't tell me "Oh, can you make that +2 Cards say +3 Cards instead?"  Just resubmit the full card.
* Only submit cards that are your own design.
* You may submit cards that have been previously posted here in this forum, including those that have been refined by the community as a whole, provided you can still claim that the central conceit of the card -- and the majority of its final version -- is yours.  This applies to cards previously posted, however -- if your submissions aren't already posted on his board, please refrain from doing so until after the results have been announced.
* A single card might conceivably qualify for multiple challenges within this series.  However, you may not submit the same card for more than one concurrent challenge.  That is, if you have submitted a card to one challenge, you may not submit it to another challenge until the results of that first challenge have been announced.
* Do not disclose your submissions publicly, either in this thread or elsewhere

--

The deadline for this week's challenges is Thursday, September 27, at 10am EDT.

--

Challenge #17 - Reaction Card

Objective: Create a card that has the "Reaction" type.  The card may have other types as well.  The card text must clearly specify the event or events that may activate the reaction card and what the reaction card does when activated.

The trigger event for the Reaction may not be an event that already exists on an official card that is NOT a Reaction.  For example, since Nomad Camp is not a Reaction card, you may not submit a Reaction card with the trigger event "When you gain this...."

Although there are no other restrictions in the rules for this challenge what the event(s) might be, some possible trigger events can introduce practical problems playing them out, so keep this in mind if you choose an event that isn't already used by one of the official Reaction cards.  For reference, here are the various trigger events used by the official Reaction cards:

* When another player plays an Attack card...
* When you gain a card...
* When you would gain a card...
* When you buy a Victory card...
* When another player gains a Province...
* When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase...
* When one of your cards is trashed...

Official Examples: Moat, Secret Chamber, Watchtower, Horse Traders, Fool's Gold, Trader, Tunnel, Beggar, and Market Square.

Official Non-Examples: Non-Reaction cards with on-buy, on-gain, on-trash, while-in-play, or other similar event-based behavior.  Examples include Lighthouse, Nomad Camp, Border Village, Mint, Cultist, and many others.  These cards are not eligible, because they do not have the Reaction type, and nor would they be eligible if they were given the Reaction type but left otherwise unchanged.

--

The Ballot
The Results
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 11:37:09 am by rinkworks »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2012, 03:23:32 pm »
0

Along with "when you gain this", you should probably also count out "when you trash this".  And there probably isn't a good way to make "when you would trash this" either.
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rinkworks

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2012, 03:53:49 pm »
0

Along with "when you gain this", you should probably also count out "when you trash this".  And there probably isn't a good way to make "when you would trash this" either.

"When you gain this" is just an example.  The full list of exclusions is anything that triggers an official card that is not a Reaction card.

On another note, it occurred to me when writing this that "Tunnel" didn't need to be a Reaction card.  Why does "When you discard this other than during Clean-up..." require a Reaction type to work, when "When you gain this" and "When you trash this" and so forth do not?

I can see if Tunnel reacted to discarding other cards.  Then it would be to discarding like Watchtower and Market Square are to gaining and trashing.  But since it only triggers on itself, is the Reaction type really necessary?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 03:56:38 pm by rinkworks »
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Robz888

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2012, 03:57:31 pm »
+4

Cersei Lannister
Action--Reaction
$5

When you play the Game of Thrones, reveal this. You win or you die.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2012, 04:05:02 pm »
0

Along with "when you gain this", you should probably also count out "when you trash this".  And there probably isn't a good way to make "when you would trash this" either.

"When you gain this" is just an example.  The full list of exclusions is anything that triggers an official card that is not a Reaction card.

On another note, it occurred to me when writing this that "Tunnel" didn't need to be a Reaction card.  Why does "When you discard this other than during Clean-up..." require a Reaction type to work, when "When you gain this" and "When you trash this" and so forth do not?

I can see if Tunnel reacted to discarding other cards.  Then it would be to discarding like Watchtower and Market Square are to gaining and trashing.  But since it only triggers on itself, is the Reaction type really necessary?

That was more of a note for contest entrants. :)

Interesting thought on Tunnel, hm...
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Fragasnap

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2012, 04:22:23 pm »
+1

On another note, it occurred to me when writing this that "Tunnel" didn't need to be a Reaction card.  Why does "When you discard this other than during Clean-up..." require a Reaction type to work, when "When you gain this" and "When you trash this" and so forth do not?
Gaining and trashing cards are public knowledge. When I play Cellar, I only have to show you that I'm discarding 4 cards, not what those cards are. As such, Tunnel needs to react to its own discard in order to become public knowledge for the purpose of its effect.
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rinkworks

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2012, 10:38:05 pm »
0

On another note, it occurred to me when writing this that "Tunnel" didn't need to be a Reaction card.  Why does "When you discard this other than during Clean-up..." require a Reaction type to work, when "When you gain this" and "When you trash this" and so forth do not?
Gaining and trashing cards are public knowledge. When I play Cellar, I only have to show you that I'm discarding 4 cards, not what those cards are. As such, Tunnel needs to react to its own discard in order to become public knowledge for the purpose of its effect.

Does it, though?  I certainly see the problem with "When you discard this, you may gain a Gold."  But what about "When you discard this, you may reveal it.  If you do, gain a Gold." ?  That's basically what Tunnel says anyway (the clean-up clause removed).  If Tunnel lost the type but kept that text, what really breaks?

I guess what I'm getting at is that cards can have event triggers with or without the Reaction type, and when the event triggers the card says what to do.  The Reaction type, save for Tunnel, doesn't seem to have a functional purpose -- it's merely there as an indicator to players that the card can do something when something else is going on (when another player plays an attack, etc).  But save for Tunnel, all the cards with event triggers that concern something happening to that actual card lack the Reaction type, while all the other Reaction cards trigger off other things happening to other cards.

I mean, I'm prepared to concede that that's probably the reason Tunnel got its Reaction type.  I'm just unconvinced of the necessity or the consistency.  I don't see anything special about "When you discard this..." except for the lack of accountability, and that can be circumvented in the text itself ("reveal it") just as accountability is enforced in numerous other ways, like in Cutpurse and Menagerie and Shanty Town and so on.
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AJD

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2012, 01:53:28 am »
+3

On another note, it occurred to me when writing this that "Tunnel" didn't need to be a Reaction card.  Why does "When you discard this other than during Clean-up..." require a Reaction type to work, when "When you gain this" and "When you trash this" and so forth do not?
Gaining and trashing cards are public knowledge. When I play Cellar, I only have to show you that I'm discarding 4 cards, not what those cards are. As such, Tunnel needs to react to its own discard in order to become public knowledge for the purpose of its effect.

Does it, though?  I certainly see the problem with "When you discard this, you may gain a Gold."  But what about "When you discard this, you may reveal it.  If you do, gain a Gold." ?  That's basically what Tunnel says anyway (the clean-up clause removed).  If Tunnel lost the type but kept that text, what really breaks?

I mean, nothing; but the same is true of any other Reaction. If Moat had the exact same text it does now except it didn't say "Reaction" on the bottom, nothing would be any different.

The common thread uniting Reaction cards is that they're all cards that you can reveal under some circumstances from somewhere they wouldn't ordinarily be revealed (hand or discard pile), and if you do something happens. This is no different for Tunnel than it is for any other Reaction.
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Qvist

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2012, 04:25:39 am »
+1

I think the Reaction type has two purposes.
1) Making the card blue as a visual reminder that you have to be more careful in another player's turn because you might be able to reveal this. This is mainly for "When another player plays an Attack card..." and "When another player gains a Province...". I think DXV stated that in a thread which I'm to lazy to search for.
2) Effects that occur, but aren't public knowledge, need to let you reveal the reaction card. So you can't play Cellar, discard your hand and just gain 2 Golds. Your opponents want the prove that you have

Davio

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2012, 06:46:22 am »
0

One of my famous "5 minute cards" has to win one some day. :)
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Schneau

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2012, 07:16:14 am »
+2

IIRC, all Reaction cards besides Tunnel are revealed from your hand in response to some event. Additionally, IIRC every card that responds to an event but is not a Reaction is visible to all players when it responds to its event (on-trash, on-gain, while this is in play, discarded from play, start of Clean-up, etc.). So, I think the basis for being a Reaction card is that it may react to an event when it is not visible to all players. Tunnel fits this category since it may be discarded without showing others. I mean, you can show others if you want (I can't remember any rules saying you can't show other players every card you discard). I've always felt weird about Tunnel being Reaction type, but now that I think it through I think it makes sense.

I would recommend this as the rule for this Challenge: The Reaction portion of the card must react to an event when the card is not visible to all players.

I think this avoids all the edge-case Challenge rules that rinkworks posted to make sure on-trash, on-gain, etc. cards wouldn't be submitted.
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Davio

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2012, 07:21:31 am »
0

I think I read somewhere in the rules that you may discard your cards in any order you like and that you may intentionally hide cards beneath the top card. So you can make a small stack of discarded cards and only show what you want to show, e.g. an Estate.

This way, you can sneak something like a dead Moat in there and your opponent who is doubting between Sea Hag and some other card may choose the other card thinking you'll have Moat in your current hand.

This is why Tunnel is a reaction, well because of Tactician, Cellar and others where you discard multiple cards at once.

From the rules:
Quote
Although the player need not show the cards remaining in his hand to his opponents, since he places the cards in the Discard pile face-up, his opponents will always be able to see the top-most card of his Discard pile.

Reaction cards react to other events, not limited to the events they cause.

Another key aspect of Reaction cards: They are either able to react on other players' turns or are revealed from your hand. Even Market Square allows a player to react when an opponent plays a Swindler for instance.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 07:30:15 am by Davio »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2012, 07:52:54 am »
+1


On another note, it occurred to me when writing this that "Tunnel" didn't need to be a Reaction card.  Why does "When you discard this other than during Clean-up..." require a Reaction type to work, when "When you gain this" and "When you trash this" and so forth do not?

I can see if Tunnel reacted to discarding other cards.  Then it would be to discarding like Watchtower and Market Square are to gaining and trashing.  But since it only triggers on itself, is the Reaction type really necessary?

I believe I asked Donald that very question on here before... I can't find the post at the moment, but his answer had to do with the fact that the cards you discard aren't all visible to all players... you might discard 3 at once, and you need a special keyword like reaction to allow you to reveal that Tunnel that you discarded. With "when you trash this", everyone sees each card that you are trashing.

*Edit* Qvist remembered it better than I did. It did indeed have to do with the coloring. He wanted it to be blue so that you could be reminded to use it when you are attacked or when you choose to discard it amongst a bunch of other cards.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 07:54:56 am by GendoIkari »
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Schneau

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2012, 07:58:44 am »
0

I think I read somewhere in the rules that you may discard your cards in any order you like and that you may intentionally hide cards beneath the top card. So you can make a small stack of discarded cards and only show what you want to show, e.g. an Estate.

This way, you can sneak something like a dead Moat in there and your opponent who is doubting between Sea Hag and some other card may choose the other card thinking you'll have Moat in your current hand.

This is why Tunnel is a reaction, well because of Tactician, Cellar and others where you discard multiple cards at once.

From the rules:
Quote
Although the player need not show the cards remaining in his hand to his opponents, since he places the cards in the Discard pile face-up, his opponents will always be able to see the top-most card of his Discard pile.

Right, but I never said you couldn't hide cards if you discard more than one at a time. I put forth that as far as I know, there is no rule against showing your opponents every card that you discard.

Reaction cards react to other events, not limited to the events they cause.

Another key aspect of Reaction cards: They are either able to react on other players' turns or are revealed from your hand. Even Market Square allows a player to react when an opponent plays a Swindler for instance.

This isn't true for all Reaction cards. Hovel can only react on your turn, since you have to buy something and you can't do that on another player's turn. The remaining Reaction cards can all trigger on other players' turns, and in fact many of them only can. But, I don't think that it is strictly necessary to be able to react on other players' turns.
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Davio

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2012, 08:01:23 am »
0

That's why I included the "...or are revealed from your hand" bit.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2012, 08:06:39 am »
0

That's why I included the "...or are revealed from your hand" bit.

But, all Reactions besides Tunnel are revealed from your hand. So, saying

Quote from: Davio
They are either able to react on other players' turns or are revealed from your hand.

isn't any more informative than saying "They are either able to react to being discarded or are revealed from your hand." Which is just a less general way of saying what I said a few posts up:

The Reaction portion of the card must react to an event when the card is not visible to all players.
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Davio

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2012, 08:32:44 am »
+1

Okay, let's move on, all this nitpicking is so unnecessary, everybody knows what a Reaction is.
I'm very curious about the submissions for this one.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2012, 08:37:35 am »
0

Okay, let's move on, all this nitpicking is so unnecessary, everybody knows what a Reaction is.
I'm very curious about the submissions for this one.

Fair enough! Though I'm sure we'll get some submissions that I wouldn't call Reaction cards. But, we'll see!
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2012, 08:45:16 am »
0

Okay, let's move on, all this nitpicking is so unnecessary, everybody knows what a Reaction is.
I'm very curious about the submissions for this one.

Fair enough! Though I'm sure we'll get some submissions that I wouldn't call Reaction cards. But, we'll see!
I think we can safely let the electorate decide on that.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2012, 08:57:11 am »
0

I assume that "when you play this" doesn't count? ;D
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2012, 09:51:52 am »
0

I assume that "when you play this" doesn't count? ;D

Smithy in disguise - Action/Reaction - $4
When you play this, you may reveal this. If you do, draw 3 cards.

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2012, 10:05:42 am »
+2

I would love to play something and not reveal it.

Could be a bluffing card.

Gamble - $1

Put a card from your hand facedown and name a card.
Play the facedown card as if it is the named card.

Your opponent may choose to reveal your card.
If it is the named card: He discards down to 3 cards.
If it is not: You discard down to 3 cards.

Other variations possible, but you get the gist.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2012, 10:17:51 am »
0

I would love to play something and not reveal it.

Could be a bluffing card.

Gamble - $1

Put a card from your hand facedown and name a card.
Play the facedown card as if it is the named card.

Your opponent may choose to reveal your card.
If it is the named card: He discards down to 3 cards.
If it is not: You discard down to 3 cards.

Other variations possible, but you get the gist.

I always hated that game.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2012, 10:31:39 am »
+1

I just wan to chime in on the whole "When is a card a Reaction" business:

Basically, a card is a reaction when it has a trigger that occurs in a hidden zone. Overgrown Estate isn't a reaction because it triggers in a public zone (the trash). Haggler isn't a reaction because it triggers in a public zone (in play). Hovel is a reaction because it triggers in a hidden zone (the hand). Tunnel is a reaction because it triggers in a hidden zone (the discard pile).

I'm pretty sure the only hidden zones in Dominion are the hand, the discard pile, and the deck. A legitimate reaction must trigger in one of these three zones. (And good luck with writing a reaction that triggers from the deck.)

Also, that Gamble doesn't even hurt you when your bluff is called -- you've already played two of your five cards; your hand size is already 3. I'll play my Estates as Platina all day.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #18: Reaction Card!
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2012, 10:35:58 am »
0

I would love to play something and not reveal it.

Could be a bluffing card.

Gamble - $1

Put a card from your hand facedown and name a card.
Play the facedown card as if it is the named card.

Your opponent may choose to reveal your card.
If it is the named card: He discards down to 3 cards.
If it is not: You discard down to 3 cards.

Other variations possible, but you get the gist.

Something almost exactly like this was posted as a fan card a while ago.
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