Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]  All

Author Topic: Ensuring the same hand every turn  (Read 10885 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ConMan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1400
  • Respect: +1705
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2012, 09:06:09 pm »
0

I desperately want to say KC/KC/Moat/Golem/Tactician as the cards played with extra copies of some of these in the deck, and that probably protects against *some* of the weaknesses already raised, but I think no matter what combination you have you'll always be susceptible to "Opponent plays theoretical maximum of chained-Possessions, then uses those turns to buy junk to gum up your deck such that when you finally have your turn again you can't guarantee that you'll have any of the required cards in hand".
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2012, 01:52:52 am »
0

If you're ignoring Masq anyway, Powerman's original reply is a sufficient answer. It even stops Tribute and Possession. A Noble Brigand buy will stop it, though, since you'll gain a Copper.

Easy.  KC-KC-Moat-Moat-Watchtower.
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
  • Respect: +766
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2012, 09:25:06 am »
0

I desperately want to say KC/KC/Moat/Golem/Tactician as the cards played with extra copies of some of these in the deck, and that probably protects against *some* of the weaknesses already raised, but I think no matter what combination you have you'll always be susceptible to "Opponent plays theoretical maximum of chained-Possessions, then uses those turns to buy junk to gum up your deck such that when you finally have your turn again you can't guarantee that you'll have any of the required cards in hand".

Possession/masq is actually more vicious than that. With enough setup, I can possess multiple times and can stick multiple cards into your deck, say something like count x2 and estate x5. On the last possession turn, I neglect to play a final tactician and I use your two Kc's to play golem/count/count, I top deck something random and then put 5 estates on top. The possession hand is discarded and your real hand is drawn.  You have 5 green and no durations out.
Logged

ConMan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1400
  • Respect: +1705
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2012, 06:56:20 pm »
+2

And now I know the solution - KC-KC-Possession-Possession-Possession. You use the 9 Possession turns to mess up every possible action your opponent could use to stuff you up in their 1 non-Possessed turn.
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
  • Respect: +766
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2012, 01:44:27 pm »
0

And now I know the solution - KC-KC-Possession-Possession-Possession. You use the 9 Possession turns to mess up every possible action your opponent could use to stuff you up in their 1 non-Possessed turn.

Nope. Let's say you have the deck specified. Without masq, amb, or any of the problematic cards on the board. He gets one turn. He plays militia. You have to discard down to Kc/Poss.

The problem with these sorts of puzzles is that when you say anything goes for the other player, you have to work with any kingdom. One set of cards (e.g. Kc/Moat/Watchtower) will work against one line of mucking (e.g. all attacks and gaining monkeying), but it will fail against another. So your deck is vulnerable to all manner of deck attacks (e.g. miltia -> swindler will eventually pile delete and then you burn cards).

Pretty much everything is hosed by the following sequence. Kc/Masq/Opst destroys anything without duration cards out. Kc/Masq/Opst can lose to duration card setups. Possession/masq destroys anything with a duration card setup, but loses massively to Kc/Masq/Opst. Finding something that simultaneously defeats Kc/Masq/Opst, Possn/Masq, AND all duration setups (like caravan/tactician) just can't be done with present cards.
Logged

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2833
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3879
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2012, 03:20:35 pm »
+4

Allow me to be obnoxious for a moment.

In these types of puzzles, we assume that any kingdom cards are available for us to use as our hand/deck. I will now abuse this assumption by requiring two copies (for disallowing Black Market) of ten different non-Young-Witch kingdom cards. For any kingdom where this deck/hand is possible, it is not possible for any other cards to be present that could muck with this deck.

Thus, I am safe with something as simple as playing five KCed Wharves each turn to draw my entire deck before my turn starts. Puzzle solved. QED.

I apologize.
Logged
Visit my blog for links to a whole bunch of Dominion content I've made.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2012, 04:59:02 pm »
0

Allow me to be obnoxious for a moment.

In these types of puzzles, we assume that any kingdom cards are available for us to use as our hand/deck. I will now abuse this assumption by requiring two copies (for disallowing Black Market) of ten different non-Young-Witch kingdom cards. For any kingdom where this deck/hand is possible, it is not possible for any other cards to be present that could muck with this deck.

Thus, I am safe with something as simple as playing five KCed Wharves each turn to draw my entire deck before my turn starts. Puzzle solved. QED.

I apologize.

I don't quite get what you're saying... what do you mean by require 2 of each kingdom card? Also, your plan could be stopped by a single Possession.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2833
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3879
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2012, 05:25:28 pm »
0

Allow me to be obnoxious for a moment.

In these types of puzzles, we assume that any kingdom cards are available for us to use as our hand/deck. I will now abuse this assumption by requiring two copies (for disallowing Black Market) of ten different non-Young-Witch kingdom cards. For any kingdom where this deck/hand is possible, it is not possible for any other cards to be present that could muck with this deck.

Thus, I am safe with something as simple as playing five KCed Wharves each turn to draw my entire deck before my turn starts. Puzzle solved. QED.

I apologize.

I don't quite get what you're saying... what do you mean by require 2 of each kingdom card? Also, your plan could be stopped by a single Possession.

Example:

between turns, there are 5 KCs and 5 Wharves in duration-land, so I draw 30 cards at the beginning of every turn. That means as long as my deck is 35 cards or less (not including the 5 KCs and 5 Wharves), I will draw my deck before my turn begins, so my hand will be the same every turn, and I can KC four other terminals like the original problem states.

DECK:
5 KCs and 5 Wharves in duration-land
5 KCs and 5 Wharves in the deck
2 Adventurers
2 Barons
2 Chapels 2 Contrabands
2 Develops 2 Dukes
2 Expands
2 Forges
3 Ghost Ships (let's just say these are the three terminals the OP wanted KC-ed)
2 Harems
...and a partridge in a pear tree (just kidding)

So my kingdom is completely specified. I have A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, KC, and Wharf. I have two of each, so you can't say "BUT ADAM, WHAT IF [CARD X] WUZ IN THE BLACK MARKET AND YOU TRASHED YOUR BLACK MARKET AND YOUR OPPONENT GOT A POSSESSION FROM THE BLACK MARKET AND POSSESSES YOU?!?!?!??!? LOLOL" because BM can't be in the kingdom; all 10 of those cards had to be kingdom cards or else I wouldn't have been able to get two of them.

None of the specified cards can mess with my deck to stop this from happening. All I have to do each turn is play 5 KCs, king 5 Wharves, three Ghost Ships, and whatever else I want (I guess except Baron or Develop or Expand or Forge in this case).

...I told you it was obnoxious.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 05:42:09 pm by AdamH »
Logged
Visit my blog for links to a whole bunch of Dominion content I've made.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2012, 05:38:27 pm »
0

Allow me to be obnoxious for a moment.

In these types of puzzles, we assume that any kingdom cards are available for us to use as our hand/deck. I will now abuse this assumption by requiring two copies (for disallowing Black Market) of ten different non-Young-Witch kingdom cards. For any kingdom where this deck/hand is possible, it is not possible for any other cards to be present that could muck with this deck.

Thus, I am safe with something as simple as playing five KCed Wharves each turn to draw my entire deck before my turn starts. Puzzle solved. QED.

I apologize.

I don't quite get what you're saying... what do you mean by require 2 of each kingdom card? Also, your plan could be stopped by a single Possession.

Example:

between turns, there are 5 KCs and 5 Wharves in duration-land, so I draw 30 cards at the beginning of every turn. That means as long as my deck is 35 cards or less (not including the 5 KCs and 5 Wharves), I will draw my deck before my turn begins, so my hand will be the same every turn, and I can KC four other terminals like the original problem states.

DECK:
5 KCs and 5 Wharves in duration-land
5 KCs and 5 Wharves in the deck
2 Adventurers
2 Barons
2 Chapels
2 Develops
2 Expands
2 Forges
3 Ghost Ships (let's just say these are the three terminals the OP wanted KC-ed)
2 Harems
...and a partridge in a pear tree (just kidding)

So my kingdom is completely specified. I have A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, KC, and Wharf. I have two of each, so you can't say "BUT ADAM, WHAT IF [CARD X] WUZ IN THE BLACK MARKET AND YOU TRASHED YOUR BLACK MARKET AND YOUR OPPONENT GOT A POSSESSION FROM THE BLACK MARKET AND POSSESSES YOU?!?!?!??!? LOLOL" because BM can't be in the kingdom; all 10 of those cards had to be kingdom cards or else I wouldn't have been able to get two of them.

None of the specified cards can mess with my deck to stop this from happening. All I have to do each turn is play 5 KCs, king 5 Wharves, three Ghost Ships, and whatever else I want (I guess except Baron or Develop or Expand or Forge in this case).

...I told you it was obnoxious.

Ah, got it!

Though for the record, you might still have Young Witch in that Kingdom. You'd need to specify 10 cards that cost more than $3 for it to work, because Young Witch could give you Curses which would stop your thing from working.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2833
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3879
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2012, 05:42:21 pm »
0

Mischief Managed.
Logged
Visit my blog for links to a whole bunch of Dominion content I've made.

jotheonah

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 989
  • Respect: +949
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2012, 10:50:43 pm »
0

I'm glad you prefaced that like you did. I appreciate the out-of-the-box thinking.
Logged
"I know old meta, and joth is useless day 1 but awesome town day 3 and on." --Teproc

He/him

Sakako

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 72
  • Respect: +15
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2012, 01:09:03 pm »
0

I actually did this once. Granted, Masquerade wasn't in play (I don't own Intrigue), and my opponent never bought a Goons... but my hand ended up being KC-Goons-Bishop-Gold-Province.

I'd play the KC'd Goons, then play Bishop, trashing the Province for 5 VP chips, then play the Gold and buy a new one. 5-card deck.

:P
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2012, 02:12:23 pm »
0

I actually did this once. Granted, Masquerade wasn't in play (I don't own Intrigue), and my opponent never bought a Goons... but my hand ended up being KC-Goons-Bishop-Gold-Province.

I'd play the KC'd Goons, then play Bishop, trashing the Province for 5 VP chips, then play the Gold and buy a new one. 5-card deck.

:P

I think you're missing something.  After KC-Goons, you have no actions to play the Bishop.
Logged

Sakako

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 72
  • Respect: +15
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2012, 05:26:37 pm »
0

I actually did this once. Granted, Masquerade wasn't in play (I don't own Intrigue), and my opponent never bought a Goons... but my hand ended up being KC-Goons-Bishop-Gold-Province.

I'd play the KC'd Goons, then play Bishop, trashing the Province for 5 VP chips, then play the Gold and buy a new one. 5-card deck.

:P

I think you're missing something.  After KC-Goons, you have no actions to play the Bishop.

Maybe it wasn't Goons. ^^; I can't remember. :P
Logged

Rabid

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 840
  • Shuffle iT Username: Rabid
  • Respect: +643
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2012, 05:36:57 pm »
0

KC, KC, Goons, Bishop, Prov maybe?
Logged
Twitch
1 Day Cup #1:Ednever

Sakako

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 72
  • Respect: +15
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2012, 11:30:57 pm »
0

Yeah, that's probably it.
Logged

DWetzel

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 246
  • The Human Edge Case
  • Respect: +272
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2012, 12:53:20 am »
0

This may have already been said, I'm lazy.

Does KC - KC -Moat - Scheme - Bishop work?

The three terminals KCed are KC, Moat, and Bishop, played in that order, with Scheme also in there of course; if I'm passing something with Masq it's the Scheme, and I'll trash whatever I get if anything with the Bishop anyway, buy a Scheme with my $3 from a KCed Bishop, and rinse/repeat since I still have 5 cards because you can't curse me.  I assume Possession is pretty much unstoppable, but even if they buy a card to mess it up I have to have KC-KC-Moat or my Scheme in hand to draw the remaining card and trash it with Bishop...
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 12:55:57 am by DWetzel »
Logged

DWetzel

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 246
  • The Human Edge Case
  • Respect: +272
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2012, 01:00:13 am »
0

Cheaply but relevantly, it's important to point out that KC is itself a terminal, so KC-KC + two other terminals should qualify, and you've got a free fifth card.  :)
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2012, 03:49:38 am »
0

This may have already been said, I'm lazy.

Does KC - KC -Moat - Scheme - Bishop work?

The three terminals KCed are KC, Moat, and Bishop, played in that order, with Scheme also in there of course; if I'm passing something with Masq it's the Scheme, and I'll trash whatever I get if anything with the Bishop anyway, buy a Scheme with my $3 from a KCed Bishop, and rinse/repeat since I still have 5 cards because you can't curse me.  I assume Possession is pretty much unstoppable, but even if they buy a card to mess it up I have to have KC-KC-Moat or my Scheme in hand to draw the remaining card and trash it with Bishop...


This can be messed up if opponents purchase a bunch of IGG or NB.  They are essentially on-gain/buy attacks, but they aren't blockable by Moat.  You can draw them and trash the gained Curses and Coppers with Bishop, but that's not enough if they buy enough of those cards.  Oh, buying Embassy works too.

The solution is to include Watchtower.
Logged

DWetzel

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 246
  • The Human Edge Case
  • Respect: +272
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2012, 11:21:08 am »
0

*mumble* good point
Logged

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
  • Respect: +766
    • View Profile
Re: Ensuring the same hand every turn
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2012, 02:45:59 pm »
0

This may have already been said, I'm lazy.

Does KC - KC -Moat - Scheme - Bishop work?

The three terminals KCed are KC, Moat, and Bishop, played in that order, with Scheme also in there of course; if I'm passing something with Masq it's the Scheme, and I'll trash whatever I get if anything with the Bishop anyway, buy a Scheme with my $3 from a KCed Bishop, and rinse/repeat since I still have 5 cards because you can't curse me.  I assume Possession is pretty much unstoppable, but even if they buy a card to mess it up I have to have KC-KC-Moat or my Scheme in hand to draw the remaining card and trash it with Bishop...


No. The scheme only protects you from a single play of masq. A simple shot is I play Kc -> Kc -> Outpost -> Masq; you pass three cards (which I trash). In the Opst turn (one Kc is attached to the Opst) I play Kc -> Masq and you lose 2 more cards from your hand.

In addition, Possession/Masq can also completely ruin your day. I play masq (pass you a masq) -> possession. Then during the possession turn I Kc the Masq and I get the Kc, Moat, and Bish from you hand (say leaving you with 4 copper instead).
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  All
 

Page created in 0.045 seconds with 20 queries.