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[werothegreat]

How can you ensure that you King's Court the same three terminals every turn, no matter what happens to your deck, or what your opponent does to you?

[Powerman]

Have only KC-KC-Moat-Moat-Moat?  But I guess that fails with Masq...

[werothegreat]

Have only KC-KC-Moat-Moat-Moat?  But I guess that fails with Masq...

That doesn't ensure you get it every turn.

[Davio]

I'm pretty sure it involves Haven and Scheme, but I'm too lazy to work out the details. 

[werothegreat]

I'm pretty sure it involves Haven and Scheme, but I'm too lazy to work out the details. 

No to the first, yes to the second.

[Kirian]

Have only KC-KC-Moat-Moat-Moat?  But I guess that fails with Masq...

That doesn't ensure you get it every turn.

If those are the only five cards in your deck, it does.  But then it's susceptible to Masq, as mentioned.

Clarification:  Do they need to be the same three physical cards, or just the same three terminal actions?

[Powerman]

OK, I think this works.  Whole deck is KC-KC-Moat-Workshop-Bishop.

Strategy is:

1) Gain 3 cards with Workshop
2) Draw them with Moat
3) Trash those 3 cards with Bishop
4) Rinse and repeat.

And if masq is played, pass the Bishop over, and gain it with Workshop.  But again, this still fails to a dead KC-masq...

[Davio]

Well, I thought Haven would be essential as it allows you to pick up cards at the start of your turn. 

Maybe Native Village?

[eHalcyon]

Pretty sure Davio is right.  You'd need __Haven__ to ensure that you don't get screwed over by Minion or other Discard attacks.  Even with Moat or Lighthouse, they could still play 5 Masquerades.  It doesn't have to be a full pin -- they just need to swap out your whole hand.  So you need Haven.

[Rabid]

How do you defend against possession though?

[jomini]

Can't be done.

Kc/Kc/Outpost/Masq will destroy any hand you have. It burns six cards a turn and ignores moat (and all other reactions).

You could in theory, beat that with havens and grave robbers to pull trashed cards out of the trash. I might try something like haven/grvr/outpost/kc to play all my cards in the normal hand, hide them with havens during the Opst turn, and grave rob back any cards you trash.


This, however, falls to Masq (Amb)/Possession. You do whatever you like. I masq over a masq (even if you have NOTHING in hand/deck/discard, you still get it) or Amb an Amb during my turn, then I play possession.  The possession turn starts like normal and then I masq/amb key cards (like Kc) back to myself. Then I do it again. In theory, I can play 60 possession turns (Opst & Kc) after I hand you a masq and give one of your cards to me each time with masq (I'd need something like Gov to draw cards into my personal hand and maybe even gain golds/silvers to leave you with a deck full of money). Of course, with a wild enough setup I could send you over 8 Amb with 8 Tr, draw your whole deck, and pass over up to 960 cards before you play your next turn =)

[werothegreat]

Dammit, forgot about Masquerade.  Well, ignoring Masquerade and Possession, the answer is:

Hand of King's Court, King's Court, Scheme, Scheme, Moat.
Play King's Court, King's Court, Scheme, Scheme, drawing six cards.
Play King's Court, Scheme, Scheme.
You now have three "King's Courts" left to triple your three terminals.
Play Moat.
Your four King's Court-ed Schemes allow you to put 12 Actions back on your deck.
Put them back in this order: Terminal, Terminal, Terminal, Scheme, Scheme, King's Court, Moat, Scheme, Scheme, King's Court, King's Court.

[jonts26]

What happens when fortune teller discards all the stuff on top of your deck? Unless those are the only cards in your deck.

[eHalcyon]

What happens when fortune teller discards all the stuff on top of your deck? Unless those are the only cards in your deck.

That's why he has the Moat!

[jonts26]

You know, I meant tribute. It's late though.

[eHalcyon]

You know, I meant tribute. It's late though.

Good call.

[werothegreat]

You know, I meant tribute. It's late though.

*sigh*

That's the last one, right?  There are only three non-Attack cards that can mess with your deck/hand, right?

[-Stef-]

You know, I meant tribute. It's late though.

*sigh*

That's the last one, right?  There are only three non-Attack cards that can mess with your deck/hand, right?

You now have Masquerade, Possession & Tribute?

How about Governor, Embassy?
And to some extend Councilroom. It doesn't hurt you, but your hand won't be the same either.

[Lekkit]

Noble Brigand messes with the top of the deck too.

[Fabian]

Ensuring the same hand every turn, except for when these 7 cards are involved just doesn't have the same ring to it.

[jomini]

The other non-attack cards that mess with your deck:
Gov
Igg
Embassy (on buy only)
Cr

Can triggle shuffles only:
Duchess

None of those should matter for your puzzle.

[Kirian]

Tribute, Council Room, Noble Brigand, and Duchess don't matter if you have only 5 cards in your deck and they're all in your hand.  The worst Governor and Embassy can do is give you a Silver in your discard; similarly, IGG can only give you Curses in your discard.  If you're holding:

KC-KC-Moat-Moat-Bishop

Then you can trash three cards given to you.  So this fails if people are giving you more than three cards per round, which is unlikely even in a 4P game.  And some Haven shenanigans may be able to mitigate this somewhat.

Everything you can do fails to Masquerade and Possession.  Which is why they should have been attacks, dammit!

[greatexpectations]

Then you can trash three cards given to you.  So this fails if people are giving you more than three cards per round, which is unlikely even in a 4P game. 

i think you can swap out one of those moats for a watchtower then. just trash any extra cards they attempt to give you.

[werothegreat]

Tribute, Council Room, Noble Brigand, and Duchess don't matter if you have only 5 cards in your deck and they're all in your hand.  The worst Governor and Embassy can do is give you a Silver in your discard; similarly, IGG can only give you Curses in your discard.  If you're holding:

KC-KC-Moat-Moat-Bishop

Then you can trash three cards given to you.  So this fails if people are giving you more than three cards per round, which is unlikely even in a 4P game.  And some Haven shenanigans may be able to mitigate this somewhat.

Everything you can do fails to Masquerade and Possession.  Which is why they should have been attacks, dammit!

Savvy Donald X, making the whole point of this thread impossible.

[GendoIkari]

If you're ignoring Masq anyway, Powerman's original reply is a sufficient answer. It even stops Tribute and Possession. A Noble Brigand buy will stop it, though, since you'll gain a Copper.

[ConMan]

I desperately want to say KC/KC/Moat/Golem/Tactician as the cards played with extra copies of some of these in the deck, and that probably protects against *some* of the weaknesses already raised, but I think no matter what combination you have you'll always be susceptible to "Opponent plays theoretical maximum of chained-Possessions, then uses those turns to buy junk to gum up your deck such that when you finally have your turn again you can't guarantee that you'll have any of the required cards in hand".

[eHalcyon]

If you're ignoring Masq anyway, Powerman's original reply is a sufficient answer. It even stops Tribute and Possession. A Noble Brigand buy will stop it, though, since you'll gain a Copper.

Easy.  KC-KC-Moat-Moat-Watchtower.

[jomini]

I desperately want to say KC/KC/Moat/Golem/Tactician as the cards played with extra copies of some of these in the deck, and that probably protects against *some* of the weaknesses already raised, but I think no matter what combination you have you'll always be susceptible to "Opponent plays theoretical maximum of chained-Possessions, then uses those turns to buy junk to gum up your deck such that when you finally have your turn again you can't guarantee that you'll have any of the required cards in hand".

Possession/masq is actually more vicious than that. With enough setup, I can possess multiple times and can stick multiple cards into your deck, say something like count x2 and estate x5. On the last possession turn, I neglect to play a final tactician and I use your two Kc's to play golem/count/count, I top deck something random and then put 5 estates on top. The possession hand is discarded and your real hand is drawn.  You have 5 green and no durations out.

[ConMan]

And now I know the solution - KC-KC-Possession-Possession-Possession. You use the 9 Possession turns to mess up every possible action your opponent could use to stuff you up in their 1 non-Possessed turn.

[jomini]

And now I know the solution - KC-KC-Possession-Possession-Possession. You use the 9 Possession turns to mess up every possible action your opponent could use to stuff you up in their 1 non-Possessed turn.

Nope. Let's say you have the deck specified. Without masq, amb, or any of the problematic cards on the board. He gets one turn. He plays militia. You have to discard down to Kc/Poss.

The problem with these sorts of puzzles is that when you say anything goes for the other player, you have to work with any kingdom. One set of cards (e.g. Kc/Moat/Watchtower) will work against one line of mucking (e.g. all attacks and gaining monkeying), but it will fail against another. So your deck is vulnerable to all manner of deck attacks (e.g. miltia -> swindler will eventually pile delete and then you burn cards).

Pretty much everything is hosed by the following sequence. Kc/Masq/Opst destroys anything without duration cards out. Kc/Masq/Opst can lose to duration card setups. Possession/masq destroys anything with a duration card setup, but loses massively to Kc/Masq/Opst. Finding something that simultaneously defeats Kc/Masq/Opst, Possn/Masq, AND all duration setups (like caravan/tactician) just can't be done with present cards.

[AdamH]

Allow me to be obnoxious for a moment.

In these types of puzzles, we assume that any kingdom cards are available for us to use as our hand/deck. I will now abuse this assumption by requiring two copies (for disallowing Black Market) of ten different non-Young-Witch kingdom cards. For any kingdom where this deck/hand is possible, it is not possible for any other cards to be present that could muck with this deck.

Thus, I am safe with something as simple as playing five KCed Wharves each turn to draw my entire deck before my turn starts. Puzzle solved. QED.

I apologize.

[GendoIkari]

Allow me to be obnoxious for a moment.

In these types of puzzles, we assume that any kingdom cards are available for us to use as our hand/deck. I will now abuse this assumption by requiring two copies (for disallowing Black Market) of ten different non-Young-Witch kingdom cards. For any kingdom where this deck/hand is possible, it is not possible for any other cards to be present that could muck with this deck.

Thus, I am safe with something as simple as playing five KCed Wharves each turn to draw my entire deck before my turn starts. Puzzle solved. QED.

I apologize.

I don't quite get what you're saying... what do you mean by require 2 of each kingdom card? Also, your plan could be stopped by a single Possession.

[AdamH]

Allow me to be obnoxious for a moment.

In these types of puzzles, we assume that any kingdom cards are available for us to use as our hand/deck. I will now abuse this assumption by requiring two copies (for disallowing Black Market) of ten different non-Young-Witch kingdom cards. For any kingdom where this deck/hand is possible, it is not possible for any other cards to be present that could muck with this deck.

Thus, I am safe with something as simple as playing five KCed Wharves each turn to draw my entire deck before my turn starts. Puzzle solved. QED.

I apologize.

I don't quite get what you're saying... what do you mean by require 2 of each kingdom card? Also, your plan could be stopped by a single Possession.

Example:

between turns, there are 5 KCs and 5 Wharves in duration-land, so I draw 30 cards at the beginning of every turn. That means as long as my deck is 35 cards or less (not including the 5 KCs and 5 Wharves), I will draw my deck before my turn begins, so my hand will be the same every turn, and I can KC four other terminals like the original problem states.

DECK:
5 KCs and 5 Wharves in duration-land
5 KCs and 5 Wharves in the deck
2 Adventurers
2 Barons
2 Chapels 2 Contrabands
2 Develops 2 Dukes
2 Expands
2 Forges
3 Ghost Ships (let's just say these are the three terminals the OP wanted KC-ed)
2 Harems
...and a partridge in a pear tree (just kidding)

So my kingdom is completely specified. I have A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, KC, and Wharf. I have two of each, so you can't say "BUT ADAM, WHAT IF [CARD X] WUZ IN THE BLACK MARKET AND YOU TRASHED YOUR BLACK MARKET AND YOUR OPPONENT GOT A POSSESSION FROM THE BLACK MARKET AND POSSESSES YOU?!?!?!??!? LOLOL" because BM can't be in the kingdom; all 10 of those cards had to be kingdom cards or else I wouldn't have been able to get two of them.

None of the specified cards can mess with my deck to stop this from happening. All I have to do each turn is play 5 KCs, king 5 Wharves, three Ghost Ships, and whatever else I want (I guess except Baron or Develop or Expand or Forge in this case).

...I told you it was obnoxious.

[GendoIkari]

Allow me to be obnoxious for a moment.

In these types of puzzles, we assume that any kingdom cards are available for us to use as our hand/deck. I will now abuse this assumption by requiring two copies (for disallowing Black Market) of ten different non-Young-Witch kingdom cards. For any kingdom where this deck/hand is possible, it is not possible for any other cards to be present that could muck with this deck.

Thus, I am safe with something as simple as playing five KCed Wharves each turn to draw my entire deck before my turn starts. Puzzle solved. QED.

I apologize.

I don't quite get what you're saying... what do you mean by require 2 of each kingdom card? Also, your plan could be stopped by a single Possession.

Example:

between turns, there are 5 KCs and 5 Wharves in duration-land, so I draw 30 cards at the beginning of every turn. That means as long as my deck is 35 cards or less (not including the 5 KCs and 5 Wharves), I will draw my deck before my turn begins, so my hand will be the same every turn, and I can KC four other terminals like the original problem states.

DECK:
5 KCs and 5 Wharves in duration-land
5 KCs and 5 Wharves in the deck
2 Adventurers
2 Barons
2 Chapels
2 Develops
2 Expands
2 Forges
3 Ghost Ships (let's just say these are the three terminals the OP wanted KC-ed)
2 Harems
...and a partridge in a pear tree (just kidding)

So my kingdom is completely specified. I have A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, KC, and Wharf. I have two of each, so you can't say "BUT ADAM, WHAT IF [CARD X] WUZ IN THE BLACK MARKET AND YOU TRASHED YOUR BLACK MARKET AND YOUR OPPONENT GOT A POSSESSION FROM THE BLACK MARKET AND POSSESSES YOU?!?!?!??!? LOLOL" because BM can't be in the kingdom; all 10 of those cards had to be kingdom cards or else I wouldn't have been able to get two of them.

None of the specified cards can mess with my deck to stop this from happening. All I have to do each turn is play 5 KCs, king 5 Wharves, three Ghost Ships, and whatever else I want (I guess except Baron or Develop or Expand or Forge in this case).

...I told you it was obnoxious.

Ah, got it!

Though for the record, you might still have Young Witch in that Kingdom. You'd need to specify 10 cards that cost more than $3 for it to work, because Young Witch could give you Curses which would stop your thing from working.

[AdamH]

Mischief Managed.

[jotheonah]

I'm glad you prefaced that like you did. I appreciate the out-of-the-box thinking.

[Sakako]

I actually did this once. Granted, Masquerade wasn't in play (I don't own Intrigue), and my opponent never bought a Goons... but my hand ended up being KC-Goons-Bishop-Gold-Province.

I'd play the KC'd Goons, then play Bishop, trashing the Province for 5 VP chips, then play the Gold and buy a new one. 5-card deck.

[eHalcyon]

I actually did this once. Granted, Masquerade wasn't in play (I don't own Intrigue), and my opponent never bought a Goons... but my hand ended up being KC-Goons-Bishop-Gold-Province.

I'd play the KC'd Goons, then play Bishop, trashing the Province for 5 VP chips, then play the Gold and buy a new one. 5-card deck.

I think you're missing something.  After KC-Goons, you have no actions to play the Bishop.

[Sakako]

I actually did this once. Granted, Masquerade wasn't in play (I don't own Intrigue), and my opponent never bought a Goons... but my hand ended up being KC-Goons-Bishop-Gold-Province.

I'd play the KC'd Goons, then play Bishop, trashing the Province for 5 VP chips, then play the Gold and buy a new one. 5-card deck.

I think you're missing something.  After KC-Goons, you have no actions to play the Bishop.

Maybe it wasn't Goons. ^^; I can't remember.

[Rabid]

KC, KC, Goons, Bishop, Prov maybe?

[Sakako]

Yeah, that's probably it.

[DWetzel]

This may have already been said, I'm lazy.

Does KC - KC -Moat - Scheme - Bishop work?

The three terminals KCed are KC, Moat, and Bishop, played in that order, with Scheme also in there of course; if I'm passing something with Masq it's the Scheme, and I'll trash whatever I get if anything with the Bishop anyway, buy a Scheme with my $3 from a KCed Bishop, and rinse/repeat since I still have 5 cards because you can't curse me.  I assume Possession is pretty much unstoppable, but even if they buy a card to mess it up I have to have KC-KC-Moat or my Scheme in hand to draw the remaining card and trash it with Bishop...

[DWetzel]

Cheaply but relevantly, it's important to point out that KC is itself a terminal, so KC-KC + two other terminals should qualify, and you've got a free fifth card. 

[eHalcyon]

This may have already been said, I'm lazy.

Does KC - KC -Moat - Scheme - Bishop work?

The three terminals KCed are KC, Moat, and Bishop, played in that order, with Scheme also in there of course; if I'm passing something with Masq it's the Scheme, and I'll trash whatever I get if anything with the Bishop anyway, buy a Scheme with my $3 from a KCed Bishop, and rinse/repeat since I still have 5 cards because you can't curse me.  I assume Possession is pretty much unstoppable, but even if they buy a card to mess it up I have to have KC-KC-Moat or my Scheme in hand to draw the remaining card and trash it with Bishop...

This can be messed up if opponents purchase a bunch of IGG or NB.  They are essentially on-gain/buy attacks, but they aren't blockable by Moat.  You can draw them and trash the gained Curses and Coppers with Bishop, but that's not enough if they buy enough of those cards.  Oh, buying Embassy works too.

The solution is to include Watchtower.

[DWetzel]

*mumble* good point

[jomini]

This may have already been said, I'm lazy.

Does KC - KC -Moat - Scheme - Bishop work?

The three terminals KCed are KC, Moat, and Bishop, played in that order, with Scheme also in there of course; if I'm passing something with Masq it's the Scheme, and I'll trash whatever I get if anything with the Bishop anyway, buy a Scheme with my $3 from a KCed Bishop, and rinse/repeat since I still have 5 cards because you can't curse me.  I assume Possession is pretty much unstoppable, but even if they buy a card to mess it up I have to have KC-KC-Moat or my Scheme in hand to draw the remaining card and trash it with Bishop...

No. The scheme only protects you from a single play of masq. A simple shot is I play Kc -> Kc -> Outpost -> Masq; you pass three cards (which I trash). In the Opst turn (one Kc is attached to the Opst) I play Kc -> Masq and you lose 2 more cards from your hand.

In addition, Possession/Masq can also completely ruin your day. I play masq (pass you a masq) -> possession. Then during the possession turn I Kc the Masq and I get the Kc, Moat, and Bish from you hand (say leaving you with 4 copper instead).