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[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Robz, come tell us what we already know.

[Insomniac]

To paraphase somebody's signature, Robz should have the decency to resign rather than go on being that scummy.   

Sorry, I'm just giddy with relief.

Jo is correct though, Robz, Jo, and myself will play a game until it is clear there is no way to lose every game I've been scum when I'm found out I continue trying to convince people I'm town no matter how damning the evidence. BMV although long is a perfect example of this (day 2 i was obvtown, day 3 i was obvscum), RMM1 is an alright shorter example if you skip to the day I got lynched (not sure what day that was off the top of my head though)

[Insomniac]

Yuma, Galzria, and theorel are however people I have seen self-hammer, though I can't recall off the top of my head if Galz has done it as scum, the other 2 definetly have. I have self voted as scum but only in situations where it was beneficial to my team (RMM1 where eHal gave me a really long twilight  ) and in BMV when I self voted it was because I knew I was unlynchable.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

To paraphase somebody's signature, Robz should have the decency to resign rather than go on being that scummy.   

I didn't mean resign as in give up (then).  I would never expect someone to give up.

What I meant was, the vote is irreversible, so Robz should show up now and tell us (resign) rather that continue being "in play" since we know he's scum.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

'Cause Voltaire is apparently unavailable.

[Insomniac]

Robz took off too though I think he just is online all the time because of a phone or not closing the DS tab or something.

[Voltaire]

THREAD LOCKED

Sure, hammer while the mod is at lunch. 

FINAL DAY 3 VOTE COUNT

Robz888 (3) - Insomniac, jotheonah, SwitchedFromStarcraft

Not voting - Eevee, Robz888

[Voltaire]

THREAD UNLOCKED

"Hey Robz888," said SwitchedFromStarcraft.

"Why do you have that gun pointed at me?" asked Robz888.

"Because you're the one who helped Captain_Frisk kill Captain Voltaire," replied SwitchedFromStarcraft. "Right?" he asked, turning to Insomniac. Insomniac nodded.

SwitchedFromStarcraft pulled the trigger.

Robz888, the mutineer, has been lynched.

TOWN WINS

Scum QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/fViVeAP2iFr
Spectator QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/Z9hvg6r59bnQ

Night Actions (not that there will be any surprise)

NIGHT ONE ACTIONS
Ashersky investigates jotheonah (Not Mutineer)
Insomniac investigates SwitchedFromStarcraft (Passenger)
Archetype investigates shraeye (Not Alien)
Robz888 kills Archetype
 
NIGHT TWO ACTIONS
Ashersky investigates Eevee (Not Mutineer)
Insomniac investigates Eevee (Passenger)
Robz888 kills ashersky

Thanks for playing, all! I learned a lot from this game, both in mafia theory, game design, and moderator policy. I hope you all had fun too.

[Insomniac]

So I still really don't get why Robz didn't switch lynch, but I will say that the reason asher died last night and not me is because Robz has a long standing agreement to never NK me as scum.

[Captain_Frisk]

Neither RobZ nor I saw bussing me as definite game over for town.  Probably because we're bad at life.

[jotheonah]

it's a rough set up for scum with so many cops running around. Super bad luck that random hit you, Frisk. I'm really not sure whether I will continue to advocate for random lynch in the future, but if I do I'll point to this game and it'll be super obnoxious.

Good game, guys.

[Eevee]

had fun, thanks voltaire! sad i missed getting on the robz-wagon. it feels town was propably a little overpowered in this setup?

[ashersky]

Thanks Volt!  It was fun, and you did a great job.

I was absolutely convinced of Shraeye's scumminess.  Sorry, man.

So I gotta know--how did Robz manipulate the random lynch to fall on Frisk?  Did he just time it right?  Force whatever number came up to match something in his name? 

And I agree, why didn't he save his partner at the end of D1?  Would have had a better shot at winning with 2 alive on D2...

[Captain_Frisk]

Also - random lynch didn't get me... the only person who voted randomly was my scum buddy.

[Galzria]

I think the following should be reflected on and discussed before ZM3 launches (Insomniac, this is looking at you in particular as mod )

Hey Galz,

Wanted to ask you about what you posted in the QT:

Awww, Frisky. If it's any comfort, I think under normal deadline rules, Joth would've been the one to receive a hammer vote, not you.

What are the "normal deadline rules" you refer to? I ask this out of a desire to figure out what the correct precedent for ZM games should be. I have made a ruling in this game that will stay in effect, but if it's not the ideal one, I want to figure out what is correct for future games. You're one of the "elder minds," so I figured I'd consult. 

Thanks,
V

Well, by "normal deadline rules" I simply meant exactly that:

In a normal game, we rarely (only ever once) no-lynch D1. Thus I think in this situation, if a lynch were to occur under "normal circumstances" (Someone must get to Half+1) Joth was the most likely to receive that vote. Basically, Frisk got lynched by the system.

However, I'm not sure that's a bad thing in ZM games... insofar as I think that a lynch should always occur. Thus if a Majority isn't reached, I think a Plurality is the next best thing. The question ultimately is how to deal with ties then. One of the strongest weapons Scum have is that it is HARD to lynch them. With two players (generally) unwilling to vote, it takes 5 of 7 at game start, 4 of 5 day 2, and 3 of 3 day 3 (assuming straight town day and night kills). It's SUPPOSED to favor scum this way, because as the game progresses, town learns solid facts that reveal who the scum are (or might be).

Straight up taking away this power of consensus lynch puts a lot of power in the hands of town. They no longer need to have so many of their fellow teammates agree. It vastly changes the nature of the game.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the best solution is. It may be to simply weaken town by only giving them a single PR. Or it may be to determine a better system than "first to plurality gets lynched". It's an interesting question though. I DO think that for ZM games we need a system that absolutely lynches every day. We just need to make sure it stays balanced for scum.

The ZM games seem popular, so I'm sure another will start up again quickly after the conclusion of this one, but I think this is a question that we should pose to the community as a whole before the launch of that game. My initial thought is to leave things the way they are, but weaken the town by only giving them 1 PR. I'm not sure if that'll balance out enough though, or even over balance by putting to much power back into the hands of Scum (although I don't think that it would).

[Voltaire]

had fun, thanks voltaire! sad i missed getting on the robz-wagon. it feels town was propably a little overpowered in this setup?

In my opinion, only if they hit scum D1. Otherwise, I think this setup mostly works. That said, the game should be balanced if that happens, so the setup definitely needs tweaked. However, scum did make some strategic errors (not killing Insomniac after his D1 softclaims, etc.)

Your achievement has been immortalized in the thread title. Enjoy!

[Eevee]

Also - random lynch didn't get me... the only person who voted randomly was my scum buddy.

This.


I too got to apologize for shraeye and others for ruining our flawless victory.

[Voltgloss]

As I said in the speccy threa, the reason I think the Day 1 lynch worked so well for Town was because of the plurality lynch rule.

We all thought going into this game that quick days favor scum.  And they do.  But on the flip side, plurality lynch favors town because they don't have to marshal themselves so strongly in order to overcome scum objections and lynch scum.  In a plurality lynch world, scum who spread their votes around run into trouble.

[shraeye]

So I still really don't get why Robz didn't switch lynch, but I will say that the reason asher died last night and not me is because Robz has a long standing agreement to never NK me as scum.

Here's why.  He switches for the "hammer" and both cops will investigate him.  He shows scum so we lynch him.  then realize that he jumped off of Frisk last minute and frisk dies the next day.

Robz's only chance was to kill Insom in the night.  May have worked pretty good too, as suspicion would have inevitably fell on me haaaard.  So only 2 conf-town and one more basically guaranteed mislynch.  Then Robz's chances weren't so bad.

[ashersky]

Also - random lynch didn't get me... the only person who voted randomly was my scum buddy.

So that wasn't planned?  That's why I felt your buddy had to be on the other wagon...unless you two had somehow planned the faux-random lynch, I just didn't see your buddy starting and staying on your wagon the whole day.

[Insomniac]

Galz, I think plurality lynch is fine, look at ZM1 you won it handidly, rarely if ever is the plurality a rule normally players are aware of the deadline. The problem in this game was that there were way too many cops. I don't think plurality favours town that much more than scum but I am intending to give the town much less power in ZM3 than here. I balanced ZM1 the same way I balanced M3 as if it were a normal mafia game, I did give the town higher than usual chance of getting 2 roles, but I made the cop less likely to show up because cops tend to be op.

As for your not playing until we lynch lurkers I have to disagree. I think we should be more open to lynching lurkers but there is information to be gained from lynching someone who is active, while we know for a fact town is likely to lurk as much as scum.

[shraeye]

I'm probably going to be bitter about that adrenaline-lynch y'all put on me for a bit.  It was 4 townies.  I can see wanting to lynch me based on shown scumminess, that's a natural reaction.  But give me a moment to explain myself, I wasn't given that.  I'm also wondering if Insom even read my defense before hammering.  Basically I thought I had proven that only an insane shraeye would have not killed insom.  Endgamed is always worse than catching suspicion, right?

[Insomniac]

I'm probably going to be bitter about that adrenaline-lynch y'all put on me for a bit.  It was 4 townies.  I can see wanting to lynch me based on shown scumminess, that's a natural reaction.  But give me a moment to explain myself, I wasn't given that.  I'm also wondering if Insom even read my defense before hammering.  Basically I thought I had proven that only an insane shraeye would have not killed insom.  Endgamed is always worse than catching suspicion, right?

I didn't I force pushed my vote through. I didn't think you were scum but I didnt think people were gonna go to Eevee who was my number 1 suspect, and I was excited to have an early town victory.

[shraeye]

I'm probably going to be bitter about that adrenaline-lynch y'all put on me for a bit.  It was 4 townies.  I can see wanting to lynch me based on shown scumminess, that's a natural reaction.  But give me a moment to explain myself, I wasn't given that.  I'm also wondering if Insom even read my defense before hammering.  Basically I thought I had proven that only an insane shraeye would have not killed insom.  Endgamed is always worse than catching suspicion, right?

I didn't I force pushed my vote through. I didn't think you were scum but I didnt think people were gonna go to Eevee who was my number 1 suspect, and I was excited to have an early town victory.

I figured.  That's the exact attitude that really frustrated me; I'm sure I'll get over it soon.  I know that it was exciting to get town win, and I really wanted to share in that.  But a flawless victory would have been sooooo sweet.  Hammering someone you don't suspect is always a poopy play.

[Insomniac]

Also Galz I think the lurker thing is more of an issue in large games, and I can't talk about one game its an issue in but I will say its soo damn large. Blitz mafia games I don't think you really CAN lurk in and hey we repeatedly called out people for lurking for...3 hours... Anyways I don't think you should let your lurker problem stop you from playing ZM