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[Forge!!!]

Let's say 2 novices are playing each other, they know the basics but have almost zero concept of strategy. HOWEVER, they also have the option of buying the help of a partner who can tell them what to do. They have 3 options, and they can only choose one:

1) A level 10 isotropic player who costs 4
2) A level 20 isotropic player who costs 5
3) A level 45 isotropic player who costs 8

Which one would you suggest they buy? Essentially it boils down to, can the level 20/45 player catch up to the level 10 player? Those early turns are very, very important.

I know this would be very board-dependent, so feel free to have different answers for different contexts, such as smithy/BM vs. Scrying Pool or trashing vs. no trashing.

[O]

Probably level 20, praying that they hit 5 turns 3/4

by the time a new player hits 8$ there's probably not much the level 45 can do.

[Insomniac]

Probably the level 10 because they can take the level 10s advice and learn from it. At which point they buy the level 20 and then the level 45

[Forge!!!]

Probably the level 10 because they can take the level 10s advice and learn from it. At which point they buy the level 20 and then the level 45

But they can only buy 1 of them =P

And I am re-thinking these price points a bit, perhaps the level 20 player should be 6 or the level 45 player should be 6...

[Tables]

I would say the level 10, although it depends on how literally we take the 'zero concept of strategy' and also how much help the partner gives. I'm assuming for instance that the player will choose randomly from all moves that aren't stupid (e.g. they won't buy Copper if they have >=$3 and won't play their Smithy before their Village). I'm also assuming a 3/4 split - they should take the level 20 if they have a 5/2. Mainly, those early turns really matter, and if they aren't playing to maximise the chance of hitting $5 on the second shuffle, then it could well be midgame or beyond before they get their level 20's advice, at which point the level 10 will probably have a strong lead.

[thirtyseven]

If it's a 4/3 split, get the level 10 player.
If it's a 5/2 split, get the level 20 player.

[Beyond Awesome]

The level 20.

[Forge!!!]

Hmm, no one is saying the level 45, but there has to be some board where that's what you would want to go with. Perhaps a complex Goons engine board, or Scrying Pool, or TR/Saboteur where you can eventually trash whatever their lead is.

[GendoIkari]

Hmm, no one is saying the level 45, but there has to be some board where that's what you would want to go with. Perhaps a complex Goons engine board, or Scrying Pool, or TR/Saboteur where you can eventually trash whatever their lead is.

Yeah, I'd say just about any board where you would buy a Province with your first $8 is a board where you should consider the level 45.

[Beyond Awesome]

Hmm, no one is saying the level 45, but there has to be some board where that's what you would want to go with. Perhaps a complex Goons engine board, or Scrying Pool, or TR/Saboteur where you can eventually trash whatever their lead is.

But, let's say they are a level 0 player. Will they even recognize this kind of board as being the one to call on a level 45 player?

[Forge!!!]

Hmm, no one is saying the level 45, but there has to be some board where that's what you would want to go with. Perhaps a complex Goons engine board, or Scrying Pool, or TR/Saboteur where you can eventually trash whatever their lead is.

Yeah, I'd say just about any board where you would buy a Province with your first $8 is a board where you should consider the level 45.

Where you would buy a province? I would think the more complex boards would be the ones where you wouldn't.

Hmm, no one is saying the level 45, but there has to be some board where that's what you would want to go with. Perhaps a complex Goons engine board, or Scrying Pool, or TR/Saboteur where you can eventually trash whatever their lead is.

But, let's say they are a level 0 player. Will they even recognize this kind of board as being the one to call on a level 45 player?

I know it seems a little pedantic, but it's in your opinion which should you go with, so I guess in the scenario you are some random unnamed person who tells the novice which to go with.

[Jive Junkie]

On a Colony board with a really nice engine set-up, there's a chance that the Level 45 fella at $8 could work. That's assuming the novice will be able to get to $8 before too many turns have passed, hopefully at least buying money or action money to make it possible. For instance, if the novice has a tendency to buy nothing but Village and Smithy (thereby not even having more than $7 in the deck!), then obviously you have to go for the Level 10 or 20.

The thing that makes me hesitate to recommend the L45 is that even with some money buys, I don't know how messed up the deck would be by the first $8, even in a Colony game. If the board favors an engine that needs early trashing, starting the process after 6-10 turns of novice buys would likely prove disastrous, unless the novice were already predisposed to buying engine pieces (or at least cantrips). All those extra junk buys (esp. if they're semi-useless terminals) would function as pseudo-curses for the L45, and probably too big a hole to recover from.

I suppose I'm concluding that the L20 at $5 makes the most sense even in tricky engine set-ups. In Big Money Plus style boards, it's a no-brainer to pick the L10 or 20, as the difference between L20 and 45 is most certainly not sufficient enough to overcome a huge head start with a fairly simple kingdom.

[GendoIkari]

I would think the more complex boards would be the ones where you wouldn't.

That's my point. The more complex the board, the more likely it is that a level 45 can get a great comeback. I was kind of thinking of it like this:

Imagine a level 45 is playing against a level 10. In order to give a handicap, the level 45 agrees to not buy anything with his first $8 buy. I think the level 45 would win pretty often. This is sort of like someone choosing the level 45 playing against someone who chose the level 10. Of course, there's a difference in that up until you hit $8, you are playing like a level 0, not like a level 45.

[eHalcyon]

the difference between L20 and 45 is most certainly not sufficient enough to overcome a huge head start with a fairly simple kingdom.

Just use some zaps!



For this thought experiment, it might be helpful to assume that the novices are playing pure BM until they buy their helper.

[rod-]

But the person with no sense of strategy has no idea when a level 45 is better than a province.  I'm pretty confident that it's far fewer than 50% of the games, and therefore the 45 option should be avoided altogether.

But the person has no sense of strategy, so...that doesn't mean the option *will* be avoided altogether.  It's a bit of a paradox.

[Jive Junkie]

the difference between L20 and 45 is most certainly not sufficient enough to overcome a huge head start with a fairly simple kingdom.

Just use some zaps!



For this thought experiment, it might be helpful to assume that the novices are playing pure BM until they buy their helper.

The problem is, of course, that pure BM is often much, much better than what a true novice would end up doing. Beginners often love actions, and the concept of terminal clashing probably sounds like a new sci-fi movie title to them. I remember games buying 10+ terminals with no villages on board. Drawing hands of Moneylender, Moat, Remodel, Mine, and Baron. Sometimes the actions in the kingdom support pure action engines, but beginners will often find a way to bugger that up, too. For example:

A novice simulator

Examining the board: Take 3-5 random kingdom cards, and rank them in terms of "shininess": A>B>C>D. Higher cost shiny cards are always shinier than lower cost ones. Villages and other +Action +Card cards automatically get double shininess points (i.e. at least twice the chance of making the ranked shiny cards). Big effects like Possession and Expand get triple shininess points. Sick combos (like Village-Smithy) get special bonus shiny points. Cards with a lot of text and/or dealing with trashing get half shininess points. Obviously trashing is useful when you have curses, but otherwise all cards help you, you know!

1) When possible, buy shiny card A. If not enough coin, buy B, C, and so forth.
2) If there's no shiny card at $3, buy Silver with $3. Can't waste money, after all.
3) If you get $6, flip a coin. Heads, buy shiny card A. Tails, buy a Gold. Gold is good, and somewhat shiny.
4) If you get $2 and there are no shiny cards at $2, buy any random $2 Kingdom card. If there's no kingdom card to buy, buy an Estate. It's only one VP, but it could be the difference!
5) If you get $1 or less, flip a coin. Heads, buy Copper. Tails, look at the kingdom, scratch your head, and pass, forgetting that Copper costs $0.
6) If you have "too much" (this is defined as having some random arbitrary amount) of shiny card A, buy shiny card B instead even if you have enough coin for A. Same logic applies to B if you have "too much" of it. Gotta have balance, after all.
7) If you get $8+ and have a single Buy, buy a Province. Even newbies know that much.
8 ) If you get $8+ and have multiple Buys, flip a coin. Heads, buy a Province. Tails, spread the love between shiny cards A & B, if possible.
9) If your opponent has started buying Duchies, buy a Duchy with exactly $5. Still buy Gold or shiny card A/B/C with $6 or $7.
10) When your opponent ends the game with Provinces or piles, be surprised and tell them that you just needed "one more turn".

I remember a little too well.

[eHalcyon]

Well, you need to define how they would play then.  You say they know the basics, but knowing the basics suggests they have >0 Strategy.  I mean, are the novices bright enough to realize that they have to get a money card at some point or else they will never have more than $7?  Will they load up on Scouts?

Your "novice simulator" is very fuzzy on how to rank cards by shininess.  The described player also has >0 Strategic knowledge, since it recognizes Village+Smithy as a combo.

Do you intend the Novice players in the OP to be relatively random?  It's tougher to answer the question then, since the player who randomly buys the better cards will end up with better chances to buy the better helper!

Pure BM may be better than most novices, but it is a simple, low level baseline.

[Jive Junkie]

Well, you need to define how they would play then.  You say they know the basics, but knowing the basics suggests they have >0 Strategy.  I mean, are the novices bright enough to realize that they have to get a money card at some point or else they will never have more than $7?  Will they load up on Scouts?

Your "novice simulator" is very fuzzy on how to rank cards by shininess.  The described player also has >0 Strategic knowledge, since it recognizes Village+Smithy as a combo.

Do you intend the Novice players in the OP to be relatively random?  It's tougher to answer the question then, since the player who randomly buys the better cards will end up with better chances to buy the better helper!

Pure BM may be better than most novices, but it is a simple, low level baseline.

Heh, you took that a little more seriously than I thought anyone would. But yes, to answer your general question, I think Novices are pretty random. I know I was, and I know that most new players I sit down with are pretty random. And while pure BM may be a lot simpler to talk about and model, it is about the antithesis of what actual new players do. They want to have fun and buy cool stuff that do cool things (ooh shiny!). Common threads for newbies seems to be overbuying actions (terminal or not), and trying to get their money's worth with every buy. Also, latching on to the first combo they "discover".

Nobody is drawn to Dominion with the prospect of Big Money.

[sitnaltax]

By far the most common novice mistake I see is to always buy the most expensive card possible, even if it's a lousy $4 or they're choking on $5 terminals and really need more Silver.

[Forge!!!]

By knows the basics I mean that they know how to play the game. I agree with Jive Junkie that people who have played almost no games love action cards and buying as many of them as they can. It would more than likely be a sub-BM strategy they would play, cause like, Woodcutters are just super cool. And Secret Chambers are blue! That means they must be good. (I played a "tournament" once where one of the people bought 9 Secret Chambers. I won 10 bucks from the tournament, and I thought that Masquerade was a bad card. Those were the days.)

[HiveMindEmulator]

Anything for $8 is too late. It may seem like level 45 players are wizards, but they usually build something nice starting from the beginning of the game. If they have to start with a deck full of junk and turn 12-15 or whatever, they may have a lot of digging their way out to do. If you start with a level 20 player at $5, you can just close out the game too fast for anyone to dig their way out of that kind of mess.

[Young Nick]

Yeah, it's not the turn deficit that is even the only thing, but the deck quality, too, will be horrid.

[eHalcyon]

I honestly have no idea of the relative strengths of the levels.  I've played few games on iso, and haven't played in quite a while.  When I was playing, I whipped right through the teens with ease.  I was slowing down in the low-to-mid 20s before I stopped playing at all.  If I had kept it up, maybe I would have made it to low 30s?  No idea.

So I tend to think of level 10 as really, really poor... but then there are so many more people in single digits, or 0 or lower, eh?

The middle choice is probably the best on almost all boards.  Level 10 isn't very good, right?  You can reasonably hit $5 early, even with poor opening buys.  You're not going to hit $8 very quickly, especially with novice play.

What level would the novices be at?  0?  Worse?

[Forge!!!]

Anything for $8 is too late. It may seem like level 45 players are wizards, but they usually build something nice starting from the beginning of the game. If they have to start with a deck full of junk and turn 12-15 or whatever, they may have a lot of digging their way out to do. If you start with a level 20 player at $5, you can just close out the game too fast for anyone to dig their way out of that kind of mess.

I'm going to disagree, level 45s are totally wizards and no one can convince me otherwise. That being said, I agree that 8 is probably too ridiculous of a price point and that 6 would probably have been better.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anything for $8 is too late. It may seem like level 45 players are wizards, but they usually build something nice starting from the beginning of the game. If they have to start with a deck full of junk and turn 12-15 or whatever, they may have a lot of digging their way out to do. If you start with a level 20 player at $5, you can just close out the game too fast for anyone to dig their way out of that kind of mess.

I'm going to disagree, level 45s are totally wizards and no one can convince me otherwise. That being said, I agree that 8 is probably too ridiculous of a price point and that 6 would probably have been better.

Ah, but $8 and also level 45 sounds very shiny to a new player!