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Author Topic: When do cards do things  (Read 12654 times)

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Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2013, 07:32:05 pm »
0

Embargo, Duchess, and "Setup" abilities are not precisely phrased. I will use my usual excuse that, AFAIK, they do not confuse people; no-one thinks they are supposed to take all 10 Curses due to one Embargo token or all 10 Duchesses when they buy a Duchy, no-one puts 10 counters on each VP pile for Trade Route or adds 10 Banes to the supply for Young Witch.

More precise cards would indicate that they were just giving you a reminder, and then the rulebook would have the rules for those things in their non-FAQ sections.

Embargo has a when-buy trigger, is timed like other when-buy triggers, and probably does what you think it does.

Yes, neither of us are unsure about the rules here, just trying to describe the timing properly. Thanks for the reply.
Right, the "problem" is that the triggers are on the cards. A text saying that they're only reminders would solve it by saying that the card itself isn't really telling you to do these things..! :)

How to describe the timing accurately for the purposes here though..? Maybe a state timer that says "in this game, but not once for each of This", but it's not very elegant at all. Still thinking...

Nono... on this analysis of Embargo, the when-buy event is that you gain one Curse, not a Curse per token. (And the fact that the card says "one Curse per token" is a case of the card text not literally lining up 100% with card's effect, like Nomad Camp.)

Each token is tied to a specific Embargo card because each token is placed by a specific Embargo card. On this analysis, the Embargo tokens are just to make tracking easier; gameplay would be the same without themólike Trade Route tokens. (Trade Route could just say "+$1 per Victory card pile in the supply from which a card has been gained this game".)

Ah, I see. Describing it like this would actually solve are problems with Embargo! There's still Duchess etc though, so we need a more general solution anyway.

Quote
Nah, for set-up events it's the randomizer card that's telling you what to do. By the time you have ten Young Witches, set-up has already taken place.  ;)

Heh, I guess, if you use randomizers. They're not required by the rules though. If you choose ten piles in another way, you would be seeing the set-up events with all ten cards on the table.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 07:33:24 pm by Jeebus »
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2013, 07:43:47 pm »
0

Quote
Nah, for set-up events it's the randomizer card that's telling you what to do. By the time you have ten Young Witches, set-up has already taken place.  ;)

Heh, I guess, if you use randomizers. They're not required by the rules though. If you choose ten piles in another way, you would be seeing the set-up events with all ten cards on the table.

And yet, for Knights, the randomizer is the only place the special set-up rule appears....
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Donald X.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2013, 08:48:43 pm »
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How to describe the timing accurately for the purposes here though..? Maybe a state timer that says "in this game, but not once for each of This", but it's not very elegant at all. Still thinking...
I am not sure what the problem is that you need solved.

In a hypothetical world of precise phrasings, there is a global rule, "In games using Embargo, when you buy a card, gain a Curse per Embargo token on that pile." There is another global rule, "In games using Duchess, when you buy a Duchy, you may gain a Duchess." Being precise doesn't mean it needs to say "but not once per copy of this card;" the rule is in a rulebook, not on a card (in this hypothetical world).
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Donald X.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2013, 08:50:02 pm »
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And yet, for Knights, the randomizer is the only place the special set-up rule appears....
The Dark Ages rulebook explains setup for Knights.
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2013, 11:49:50 pm »
0

And yet, for Knights, the randomizer is the only place the special set-up rule appears....
The Dark Ages rulebook explains setup for Knights.

Fair enough! I guess I meant 'the only card the rule appears on'.
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Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2013, 02:34:47 am »
0

I am not sure what the problem is that you need solved.

This is only for trying to improve this: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Triggered_events pluss my own document that I'm writing trying to get triggers and timing precise. I don't really need anything solved from you. Your input is always appreciated of course. :) But I don't think anyone here is actually unclear about how these rules work.

Donald X.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2013, 02:59:04 am »
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This is only for trying to improve this: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Triggered_events pluss my own document that I'm writing trying to get triggers and timing precise. I don't really need anything solved from you. Your input is always appreciated of course. :) But I don't think anyone here is actually unclear about how these rules work.
Hooray!
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Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2013, 03:26:03 am »
0

An even crazier thing occurred to me about this:

Quote
When you would gain this
Nomad Camp: [Gain it and] put it on top of your deck.
although the card text says "when you gain this", the actual effect is more consistent with a "would-gain" timing

Which goes to demonstrate how dangerous it is to change these triggers in an effort to make them clearer. Because what happens here is an infinite loop! Since there's nothing stopping the trigger to trigger again, we get an unending series of recursive when-would-gain events, never getting to the actual gain in any of them:

Code: [Select]
- I try to gain a Nomad Camp.
- Its when-would-gain triggers, saying "Gain this and put it on the top of your deck."
    - I try to gain the Nomad Camp.
    - Its when-would-gain triggers, saying "Gain this and put it on the top of your deck."
        - I try to gain the Nomad Camp.
        etc.

It seems that to make a when-would-gain trigger working here could get pretty convoluted. Maybe somehow pre-emptively changing the target location of the actual gain to "your deck"..?

I think maybe the way to make it work would be something like this: "When you would gain this and put it in your discard pile, gain it and put it on the top of your deck instead." Now it only triggers once, because after that it's not going to your discard pile anymore.

But the problem now is that the original gain is cancelled (like for Trader and Possession) so gaining a Nomad Camp with Ironworks would not give the bonus! Thinking about it, this problem was there all along, even without the recursive loop. In the current text in the wiki, if we pretend that the trigger only triggers once per Nomad Camp, after gaining the card to your deck, the actual gain would fail because of lose-track. So Ironworks would fail to gain a card.

So now I'm thinking that the whole idea about when-would-gain on Nomad Camp is out the window.

Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2013, 03:33:50 am »
0

Here's a fun Reaction card idea:

Ping Pong
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, the player to your left gains it instead.

 ;D

AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2013, 10:10:55 am »
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I am not sure what the problem is that you need solved.

This is only for trying to improve this: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Triggered_events pluss my own document that I'm writing trying to get triggers and timing precise. I don't really need anything solved from you. Your input is always appreciated of course. :) But I don't think anyone here is actually unclear about how these rules work.

Indeed! Donald, you can think of what we're doing as scientific exploration of the space of rules that you invented, trying to work them out in finer detail than they're actually written down, based on our existing knowledge of what the cards actually do.
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2013, 10:17:48 am »
+1

An even crazier thing occurred to me about this:

Quote
When you would gain this
Nomad Camp: [Gain it and] put it on top of your deck.
although the card text says "when you gain this", the actual effect is more consistent with a "would-gain" timing

Which goes to demonstrate how dangerous it is to change these triggers in an effort to make them clearer. Because what happens here is an infinite loop!

Well, this one is easily resolved; the trigger is actually "when you would gain this to somewhere other than your deck-top".

Quote
But the problem now is that the original gain is cancelled (like for Trader and Possession) so gaining a Nomad Camp with Ironworks would not give the bonus! Thinking about it, this problem was there all along, even without the recursive loop. In the current text in the wiki, if we pretend that the trigger only triggers once per Nomad Camp, after gaining the card to your deck, the actual gain would fail because of lose-track. So Ironworks would fail to gain a card.

So now I'm thinking that the whole idea about when-would-gain on Nomad Camp is out the window.

Hmmm. Maybe. Ironworks Silver, reveal Trader, gain the same Silver you would have gotten anyway, you still don't get the +$1.

So. The timing of Nomad Camp's effect still has to be when-would-gain, just because that really is when it activates. But the effect isn't replacing the gain with another gain (as Possession's and Trader's is); it's just redirecting the gain. So like, "when you would gain this, redirect the gain effect's target to the deck-top."

This would still fail when interacting with a notional "Swap Meet" card (gain Action card to hand), since Donald has said that if such an effect existed, you'd get to choose the target for Nomad Camp; but since such an effect doesn't exist, we don't have to worry about it.
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SirPeebles

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2013, 10:51:37 am »
+2

I'd also argue that Lighthouse doesn't have the "when another player plays an Attack card" trigger, in spite of the wording. No event actually triggers when another player plays an Attack. Instead it just has the "while this is in play" state that Attacks don't affect you. Moat also has that state, lasting for the rest of the particular Attack, but only coming into effect when you reveal Moat as part of the event triggered by the "when another player plays an Attack card" trigger.

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I don't believe that Moat gives you the state described.  Using another Alice and Bob story, suppose that Alice plays a Cultist, and Bob responds by revealing a Moat.  However, Alice has another Cultist in hand, so as part of resolving her first Cultist she plays a second one.  If Moat gave Bob the "Attacks don't affect me" state which persists until the triggering attack is fully resolved, then Moat would automatically block this second Cultist.  But I'm pretty sure that Bob has the option of revealing Moat or not.  If there is a third player, Charlie, who did not reveal a Moat, then there may be a new Ruins on top when Bob has the option to reveal his Moat.  This new Ruin may be the Ruined Market he needs in this buy-less kingdom, or it may be this new Ruin would be his 15th uniquely named card in a Fairgrounds deck.
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Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2013, 11:50:00 am »
0

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I don't believe that Moat gives you the state described.  Using another Alice and Bob story, suppose that Alice plays a Cultist, and Bob responds by revealing a Moat.  However, Alice has another Cultist in hand, so as part of resolving her first Cultist she plays a second one.  If Moat gave Bob the "Attacks don't affect me" state which persists until the triggering attack is fully resolved, then Moat would automatically block this second Cultist.  But I'm pretty sure that Bob has the option of revealing Moat or not.  If there is a third player, Charlie, who did not reveal a Moat, then there may be a new Ruins on top when Bob has the option to reveal his Moat.  This new Ruin may be the Ruined Market he needs in this buy-less kingdom, or it may be this new Ruin would be his 15th uniquely named card in a Fairgrounds deck.

Interesting point, and an actual real rules question! Too bad it's buried here because this would be useful to know for actual game play.

Actually I have Moat as "you are unaffected by the effects of the Attack", not "Attacks don't affect you". That was wrong. But even so, how does this work?

Moat says you are unaffected by the Attack.
To my mind playing the second Cultist is part of resolving the first Cultist (like you said). That means that playing the second Cultist is part of the Attack that was Moated. Since you are unaffected by that Attack, shouldn't you also automatically be unaffected by the second Cultist? If not, what exactly is Moat blocking?

Uhmm... Donald..?


EDIT: On the other hand: Thief and Ill-Gotten Gains.
Alice plays Thief. Bob reveals Moat, but Carl does not. Alice steals an Ill-Gotten-Gains from Carl. Since she gains it, the other players gain a Curse. Now, since every instruction on Thief is part of the Attack, and Alice gained a Treasure (an IGG) as part of the Attack, Bob doesn't gain a Curse.
Of course, this seems extremely counter-intuitive, so I think SirPeebles must be right.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 12:05:52 pm by Jeebus »
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SirPeebles

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2013, 12:11:04 pm »
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Hmm, in a multiplayer game, does Thief really have the greatest Cursing potential of any card?  In a four player game, if you steal 3 IGGs then you'd pass out 9 Curses with that single Thief play!
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eHalcyon

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2013, 12:36:27 pm »
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Cultist lets you play another Cultist, but I would not consider the second one to be part of the first. Likewise, Thief can gain you IGG, but the cursing is not due to Thief, it's due to IGG. I see the cursing as enabled by Thief but not as a part of the Thief attack.

This is the intuitive answer, and intuitive is usually correct in Dominion.
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PSGarak

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2013, 12:48:32 pm »
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Moat says you are unaffected by the Attack.
To my mind playing the second Cultist is part of resolving the first Cultist (like you said). That means that playing the second Cultist is part of the Attack that was Moated. Since you are unaffected by that Attack, shouldn't you also automatically be unaffected by the second Cultist? If not, what exactly is Moat blocking?
Well, it depends on what you mean by "the Attack." My interpretation is thus: "The Attack" refers only to effects of the Attack card being played, that affect the Moating player. Playing the second Cultist does not affect the Moating player (directly), so Moat does nothing. The Ruins from the second Cultist is part of the second Cultist, not the first, and therefore is not covered by the first Moat.

This really hinges on whether the bonus Cultist is considered part of the Attack portion of the first Cultist. I learn towards it not being so, because the second Cultist also has non-Attack portions (card draw), so it's simpler to consider it a non-Attack effect that only impacts the Cultistsing player.
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2013, 01:04:09 pm »
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This is the intuitive answer, and intuitive is usually correct in Dominion.

...Well, once you've gotten used to the idea that Throne Rooming an Herbalist doesn't let you top-deck two treasures, anyway.
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Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2013, 01:04:18 pm »
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Well, it depends on what you mean by "the Attack." My interpretation is thus: "The Attack" refers only to effects of the Attack card being played, that affect the Moating player. Playing the second Cultist does not affect the Moating player (directly), so Moat does nothing. The Ruins from the second Cultist is part of the second Cultist, not the first, and therefore is not covered by the first Moat.

This really hinges on whether the bonus Cultist is considered part of the Attack portion of the first Cultist. I learn towards it not being so, because the second Cultist also has non-Attack portions (card draw), so it's simpler to consider it a non-Attack effect that only impacts the Cultistsing player.

Your conclusion is probably correct, but just to clarify: There is no "Attack portion". "Attack" is just a type on the card. Whenever such a card is played, you can reveal Moat. And that has the effect that you are unaffected by that card. So the question is really: Is the effect of the second Cultist part of the effect of the first one?

SirPeebles

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2013, 01:59:39 pm »
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This is the intuitive answer, and intuitive is usually correct in Dominion.

...Well, once you've gotten used to the idea that Throne Rooming an Herbalist doesn't let you top-deck two treasures, anyway.

You only discard the Herbalist once.

Another dissimilarity between Herbalist and Scheme is that Herbalist's topdecking theoretically does not need to occur during the clean-up phase.  It is triggered whenever Herbalist is "discarded from play".  However, I can't think of any other instance with current cards in which Herbalist would be discard from play.  This may be for the best, else one could possibly rig an infinite turn.
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AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2013, 02:09:51 pm »
+1

This is the intuitive answer, and intuitive is usually correct in Dominion.

...Well, once you've gotten used to the idea that Throne Rooming an Herbalist doesn't let you top-deck two treasures, anyway.

You only discard the Herbalist once.

Yes, I know that. But I don't think that the correct rule is intuitive to beginning players.

Quote
Another dissimilarity between Herbalist and Scheme

(Scheme says "At the start of Clean-up this turn"; that also is something that only happens once. Why does Scheme's 'at the start of Clean-up, do X' get Throned to 'at the start of Clean-up, do X twice', but Herbalist's 'when you discard this from play, do X' doesn't get Throned to 'when you discard this from play, do X twice'? Don't answer that, I know the answer, it's because Scheme's effect is created when you play it even though it doesn't effect anything till later, just like +buy, and Herbalist's effect isn't created until you discard itómy point is just that this distinction and how and why it works that way is not really fairly describable as "intuitive", especially to beginning players.)
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Donald X.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2013, 02:20:45 pm »
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So. The timing of Nomad Camp's effect still has to be when-would-gain, just because that really is when it activates. But the effect isn't replacing the gain with another gain (as Possession's and Trader's is); it's just redirecting the gain. So like, "when you would gain this, redirect the gain effect's target to the deck-top."

This would still fail when interacting with a notional "Swap Meet" card (gain Action card to hand), since Donald has said that if such an effect existed, you'd get to choose the target for Nomad Camp; but since such an effect doesn't exist, we don't have to worry about it.
Nomad Camp isn't when-gain (despite being printed that way since that's how you would say it naturally); it's, "this card's gain-destination defaults to deck-top rather than discard." It can still be overridden.
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Donald X.

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2013, 02:27:43 pm »
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Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I don't believe that Moat gives you the state described.  Using another Alice and Bob story, suppose that Alice plays a Cultist, and Bob responds by revealing a Moat.  However, Alice has another Cultist in hand, so as part of resolving her first Cultist she plays a second one.  If Moat gave Bob the "Attacks don't affect me" state which persists until the triggering attack is fully resolved, then Moat would automatically block this second Cultist.  But I'm pretty sure that Bob has the option of revealing Moat or not.  If there is a third player, Charlie, who did not reveal a Moat, then there may be a new Ruins on top when Bob has the option to reveal his Moat.  This new Ruin may be the Ruined Market he needs in this buy-less kingdom, or it may be this new Ruin would be his 15th uniquely named card in a Fairgrounds deck.
I guess the confusion here (for Jeebus) is that playing a Cultist is something Cultist did? That's not something done to you though, it's like them drawing two cards. Then when they play the second Cultist, that's a new Cultist being played; you get a chance to reveal Moat (since an attack card was played) and aren't automatically defended from it (it's not the other attack card).

Moat's "you are unaffected by that attack" thing can be tricky, though in practice it isn't; it makes us decide whether you are being affected by something. You aren't being affected by Cultist letting a Cultist be played; what's affecting you is the next Cultist.
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Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2013, 03:21:22 pm »
0

Hmmm. Maybe. Ironworks Silver, reveal Trader, gain the same Silver you would have gotten anyway, you still don't get the +$1.

So. The timing of Nomad Camp's effect still has to be when-would-gain, just because that really is when it activates. But the effect isn't replacing the gain with another gain (as Possession's and Trader's is); it's just redirecting the gain. So like, "when you would gain this, redirect the gain effect's target to the deck-top."

This would still fail when interacting with a notional "Swap Meet" card (gain Action card to hand), since Donald has said that if such an effect existed, you'd get to choose the target for Nomad Camp; but since such an effect doesn't exist, we don't have to worry about it.

Firstly, if the when-would-gain event just redirects the upcoming gain, it doesn't trigger another gain, so no recursive loop, and we don't even need the "to somewhere other than your deck-top" qualifier. So that's good.

I really tried to think of any way that Nomad Camp can work the way Donald described with Swap Meet though. It's obvious what the intention is here. Swap Meet (like Mine) has a gain-to-hand effect. Nomad Camp has a gain-to-deck effect. When Swap Meet tries to gain Nomad Camp, both effects kick in at the same time, so you get to order them. But how can Nomad Camp have a gain-to-deck effect with the same timing as Swap Meet? The only way is if we define all gain-to-deck effects and gain-to-hand effects as having a when-would-gain where you set the target. So first you set the target, then you do the actual gain. This includes cards like Mine and Develop. And even though normal gain effects always mean gain-to-discard, we have to exclude these from setting a target on when-would-gain, or else every gain-to-hand and gain-to-deck would be optional! When you think about it, if ordering Swap Meet and Nomad Camp should be possible, this has to happen before you actually gain the card, so there has to be some time frame before gain when both Swap Meet and Nomad Camp try to do something.

We could define gaining like this:
The gaining destination per default is your discard pile.
"Gain a card": Move the card from Supply (or the indicated location) to its gaining destination.
"Gain a card by putting in your hand": Before gaining the card, set its gaining destination to your hand.
"Gain a card by putting in on top of your deck": Before gaining the card, set its gaining destination to the top of your deck.


And then Nomad Camp would be:
Before gaining this, set its gaining destination to the top of your deck.

This way Swap Meet and Nomad Camp would trigger at the same time.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 03:28:39 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #73 on: March 10, 2013, 05:01:06 pm »
0

Post purely about editing the wiki article. I'm trying to do that now, without making it overly complicated (which is hard for me).

I see that there are duplicates, in order to categorize things. For instance Goons is both under Buying and Cards in play.
So regarding Grand Market and Contraband. They both are subject to states, but they also both could be said to trigger on when-would-buy. So there are three ways of doing it.

1) Both events and states separately, to be as thorough as possible. Note that to be consistent, we have to also refer to the event trigger in the state:

Quote
When you would buy this
Grand Market: You can't buy this if you have Copper in play.

When you would buy a card this turn
Contraband: You can't buy [the card your opponent named].

While Copper is in play
Grand Market: [When you would buy this,] you can't buy this.

For the rest of the turn
Contraband: [When you would buy the card your opponent named,] you can't buy that card.

2) Just states, ignoring when-would-buy events:

Quote
While Copper is in play
Grand Market: You can't buy this.

For the rest of the turn
Contraband: You can't buy [the card your opponent named].

3) Just events, referring to the state timers ("Copper in play" and "this turn") but not listing states separately:

Quote
When you would buy this
Grand Market: You can't buy this if you have Copper in play.

When you would buy a card this turn
Contraband: You can't buy [the card your opponent named].

Anybody have a preference?

AJD

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Re: When do cards do things
« Reply #74 on: March 10, 2013, 05:12:05 pm »
0

Anybody have a preference?

Both separately, under separate subsections of the list.
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