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Author Topic: Dark Ages benchmarks  (Read 6386 times)

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rinkworks

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Dark Ages benchmarks
« on: September 12, 2012, 11:36:02 am »
+2

I'm a little surprised not to see any BM+X benchmarks for Dark Ages cards yet.  Or maybe I haven't been looking in the right places.  I'm extremely curious to know, for example, how Hunting Grounds + BM is (4 cards is great; competition with Gold at that price level isn't) and Catacombs + BM is (probably almost as good as Embassy) and also less obvious but still simple things like:

* Beggar/Gardens - as compared with other Gardens-rush enablers.
* Beggar/Duchy/Duke rush - Competitive?  Better or worse than HT/Duke?
* Armory/Gardens - As compared with Workshop/Gardens and Ironworks/Gardens in particular.

Anybody know?
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Insomniac

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 11:46:26 am »
0

Armory gardens is worse than workshop gardens but probably still good because when you turn to gardens/estates you top deck them ruining your next hand.

Hunting grounds I suspect is playable in BM because if the average value of your deck is over .75 then 4 cards is going to be more valuable than a gold. If there is trashing then you can use it to turn the tides late for a duchy & province turn. Smithy is probably better in most cases though

I haven't tried beggar/gardens or beggar/duke duchy but I do suspect its pretty powerful
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brokoli

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 11:54:25 am »
0

I really think hunting grounds is a very powerful card, because, the difference between +2 and +3 cards is already huge. But maybe better in engines than in BM, because you want the duchies and estates late game.

Beggar is probably better for duke than gardens, because although you gain 3 cards, you won't draw beggar often with all these coppers (unlike Ironworks or workshop, they can gain another ironworks/workshop).
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ehunt

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 12:00:03 pm »
+1

Armory gardens is worse than workshop gardens but probably still good because when you turn to gardens/estates you top deck them ruining your next hand.

Hunting grounds I suspect is playable in BM because if the average value of your deck is over .75 then 4 cards is going to be more valuable than a gold. If there is trashing then you can use it to turn the tides late for a duchy & province turn. Smithy is probably better in most cases though

I haven't tried beggar/gardens or beggar/duke duchy but I do suspect its pretty powerful

I think the ability to topdeck incoming armories will outweigh the pain from topdecking gardens/silk roads.
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Insomniac

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 12:01:10 pm »
0

Armory gardens is worse than workshop gardens but probably still good because when you turn to gardens/estates you top deck them ruining your next hand.

Hunting grounds I suspect is playable in BM because if the average value of your deck is over .75 then 4 cards is going to be more valuable than a gold. If there is trashing then you can use it to turn the tides late for a duchy & province turn. Smithy is probably better in most cases though

I haven't tried beggar/gardens or beggar/duke duchy but I do suspect its pretty powerful

I think the ability to topdeck incoming armories will outweigh the pain from topdecking gardens/silk roads.

Early on for sure, but when your greening its super painful. with ironworks / workshop you often manage to get 2 gardens in a turn with armory once you grab one your probably not getting 2 in a turn.
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Schneau

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 12:11:43 pm »
+1

I believe this Armory vs. Workshop talk is why rinkworks was wondering if anyone has simulated this in this first place. There are pros and cons to Armory, and I could see it going either way. Which is why some simulations would be interesting.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 12:14:50 pm »
+2

a little too much "i think/i believe" in here for my tastes. i'd be interested in seeing some hard numbers from the sims or at least some average game lengths for the rushes.
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DStu

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 12:35:25 pm »
0

a little too much "i think/i believe" in here for my tastes. i'd be interested in seeing some hard numbers from the sims or at least some average game lengths for the rushes.

Geronimoo does not have DA, so what can we do?
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DStu

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 02:10:59 pm »
+3

a little too much "i think/i believe" in here for my tastes. i'd be interested in seeing some hard numbers from the sims or at least some average game lengths for the rushes.

Geronimoo does not have DA, so what can we do?
... run dominiate...

Not optimized, and no guarantee for anything:
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'WS/Gardens'
  author: 'DStu'
  requires: ["Workshop", "Gardens"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
     "Workshop" if my.countInDeck("Workshop") < 2
     "Gardens"
     "Estate" if state.countInSupply("Gardens") < 3
     "Silver"
     "Copper"
    ]
}
vs
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'Beggar'
  author: 'DStu'
  requires: ["Beggar", "Gardens"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
     "Gardens"
     "Estate" if state.countInSupply("Gardens") < 3
     "Beggar"
     "Copper"
    ]
}
10:90

edit:
The Beggar:
Code: [Select]
makeCard 'Beggar', action, {
  cost: 2
  playEffect: (state) ->
    state.gainCard(state.current, c["Copper"], 'hand')
    state.gainCard(state.current, c["Copper"], 'hand')
    state.gainCard(state.current, c["Copper"], 'hand')
   
  ai_playValue: (state, my) -> 111
}
Ignores reaction, but is not used here anyway.

Edit2: The WS should actually try to 3pile something. Add a WS beneath the Estate puts it up to 20%
Edit3: Playing a bit more Beggar vs. BigMoney it seems that the Beggar has serious problems in 3piling something. No surprise really, so it wins against some, but loses against the stronger ones...

Edit4:
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'Beggar'
  author: 'DStu'
  requires: ["Beggar", "Gardens"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
     "Gardens"
     "Duchy"
     "Beggar"
     "Estate"
     "Copper"
    ]
}
is quite strong against e.g. DoubleJack (75%).
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 02:48:10 pm by DStu »
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mischiefmaker

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 12:53:42 am »
+4

a little too much "i think/i believe" in here for my tastes. i'd be interested in seeing some hard numbers from the sims or at least some average game lengths for the rushes.

Geronimoo does not have DA, so what can we do?

I did it the old-fashioned way -- pulled out physical cards, dealt a bunch of solo games, tracked average turns to 4 provinces. I only played a handful of games with each card though so obviously sample size is an issue, and at that level of precision it's hard to make a determination other than "is probably competitive" and "sucks". Here's what I found:

Ironmonger: 6 games, averaged 15.7 turns to get 4 provinces and an average of 2.3 duchies when played with shelters. 4 games, 15.75 turns to get 4 provinces and an average of 2.25 duchies with estates, so not a whole lot of difference (which was slightly surprising, given how much better Ironmonger-BM is when it hits victory cards).

Count: 4 games, 14.25 turns to 4 provinces and 0.5 duchies. Power card for sure and it really helps if you can draw it with two shelters on your second reshuffle. Almost always used this to put a card back and get $3.

Catacombs: 3 games, 14.66 turns to 4 provinces and 1 duchy. Strong w/BM, as expected.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 11:59:39 am »
0

Catacombs + BM is (probably almost as good as Embassy) and also less obvious but still simple things like:
The tricky thing is that while Catacombs BM is probably only a little weaker than Embassy BM, Catacombs is much more useful for an Engine than Embassy is, since it nets you more cards. So Catacombs boards are going to favor engines more than Embassy boards do. Same story at an even more extreme level with Hunting Grounds. The time it takes to get up to the first one makes it weaker with BM, and +4 cards is superb for engines.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2012, 01:54:59 pm »
+1

Goko needs to hurry up and release another Dark Ages set, so I can test Rats in some solo games.  I want to know a couple things:

1) How long it takes (and how many you need to buy) before you hit a hand of 5 Rats

2) How quickly Rats/X gets to 4 Provinces, where X is another trasher (in the case of Bishop, how quickly to 24 VP tokens)


We also need to start gauging Attacks - we have Urchin(Mercenary), Marauder, Knights, Cultist, Rogue and Pillage.

From my own experience, I'd say that Cultist lives up to the hype.  If you win the Ruins war, your opponent is severely disabled, and you typically have a pretty good drawing machine going on, so even just Cultist/BM would succeed.

Marauder seems a good opener, a la Sea Hag, but less powerful than Cultist, as the benefit is a Spoils to use later.

Knights so far seem like a distraction.  I'd like to see if they can be effectively used in an engine.

Pillage is rather nasty, but as it only affects one turn, and it's a one shot, it's almost a waste of money to buy another Pillage just to hurt your opponents again - you'd be better off buying engine pieces.  Now, if you can get Graverobber or Rogue to fetch those Pillages back out of the trash, that's a different story.

I have not yet played with Rogue, but my prediction is that, being an amalgam of crappier versions of Knights and Graverobber, it's not going to be all that good.
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mischiefmaker

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2012, 02:17:44 pm »
0

2) How quickly Rats/X gets to 4 Provinces, where X is another trasher (in the case of Bishop, how quickly to 24 VP tokens)

Rats/Salvager and Rats/Death Cart/some kind of filtering both clock in around 14-15 turns (modulo some Duchies) in the solo games I've played.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2012, 02:18:15 pm »
0

How do you feel about Cultist vs. Witch/other Cursers?
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Insomniac

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2012, 02:19:45 pm »
0

How do you feel about Cultist vs. Witch/other Cursers?

Cultist + IGG is ridiculous --> Pick up 3 Cultists, then every 5 after is IGG then switch to duchies as if you were playing IGG.

I haven't got to have my test of witch vs cultist yet.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2012, 02:29:04 pm »
0

How do you feel about Cultist vs. Witch/other Cursers?

Cultist + IGG is ridiculous --> Pick up 3 Cultists, then every 5 after is IGG then switch to duchies as if you were playing IGG.

I haven't got to have my test of witch vs cultist yet.

Is the 3-pile dangerous there?  Drain Ruins, IGG and Curse.  Gotta make sure to pick up some green before the end.
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brokoli

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2012, 03:42:43 pm »
+1

How do you feel about Cultist vs. Witch/other Cursers?

I am almost convinced witch or mountebank is often better. The difference between ruin and curses is huge really, and even if cultist is faster, witch hurts more. But on the other hand, with a cantrip trasher like upgrade (or... rats) I believe cultist is better (because when you trash a cultist you get +3 cards AND your upgrade can trash the curses too).
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Insomniac

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2012, 04:06:48 pm »
0

How do you feel about Cultist vs. Witch/other Cursers?

Cultist + IGG is ridiculous --> Pick up 3 Cultists, then every 5 after is IGG then switch to duchies as if you were playing IGG.

I haven't got to have my test of witch vs cultist yet.

Is the 3-pile dangerous there?  Drain Ruins, IGG and Curse.  Gotta make sure to pick up some green before the end.

It absolutely is but thats what you want in IGG games, you just have to be sure your on top of the 3 pile. (an early cultist chain will net you a province)
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RisingJaguar

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2012, 08:57:24 pm »
0

How do you feel about Cultist vs. Witch/other Cursers?
With BM, witch does take it to cultist, the curses are damages and brokoli mentioned.  I think the best part about cultist is that ability to transition to an engine much better than a witch would.  It has that chaining ability which has the potential to be more draws and can be used as very good TFB. 

In general, the pile of 10 runs out so quickly, that building a whole stack of cultist (say 3-5) doesn't really provide as much utility as one would think.  With that said, I may be underselling its non-clashing ability a bit compared to a witch (so witch would have more variance). 
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clb

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2012, 09:04:08 pm »
0

Cultist is definitely able to get the Ruins out faster than a Witch the Curses (even an occasional double-Cultist turn improves speed, relative to a Witch). So, if you look at a Curse and a Ruin as a dead card, then Cultist is superior. In addition to being faster, it also has a sTFB (self-trash for benefit) ability. However, there are more than a few situations where Ruins and Curses are not equally dead, and then the distinction becomes more difficult. In any game where the scoring will be low, the -1 VP will be significant. Anything with Vineyards makes Looting dangerous. Someone relying on Wnadering Minstrel, though, will hate Ruins much more than curses.
I don't have a solid foundation for the assertion, but to me it feels that Witch is often better, despite what I just said.
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ftl

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2012, 09:15:54 pm »
0

The -10 points makes a big difference. In a witch vs cultist battle, the cultist player has to win the province split 5-3 to even have a chance (and even then, they can't let the witch player be ahead on duchies, or else even that won't be enough!)
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2012, 11:14:52 pm »
0

Goko needs to hurry up and release another Dark Ages set, so I can test Rats in some solo games.  I want to know a couple things:

1) How long it takes (and how many you need to buy) before you hit a hand of 5 Rats

2) How quickly Rats/X gets to 4 Provinces, where X is another trasher (in the case of Bishop, how quickly to 24 VP tokens)


We also need to start gauging Attacks - we have Urchin(Mercenary), Marauder, Knights, Cultist, Rogue and Pillage.

From my own experience, I'd say that Cultist lives up to the hype.  If you win the Ruins war, your opponent is severely disabled, and you typically have a pretty good drawing machine going on, so even just Cultist/BM would succeed.

Marauder seems a good opener, a la Sea Hag, but less powerful than Cultist, as the benefit is a Spoils to use later.

Knights so far seem like a distraction.  I'd like to see if they can be effectively used in an engine.

Pillage is rather nasty, but as it only affects one turn, and it's a one shot, it's almost a waste of money to buy another Pillage just to hurt your opponents again - you'd be better off buying engine pieces.  Now, if you can get Graverobber or Rogue to fetch those Pillages back out of the trash, that's a different story.

I have not yet played with Rogue, but my prediction is that, being an amalgam of crappier versions of Knights and Graverobber, it's not going to be all that good.

From having played the DA bug with Rats, I would say that you only ever need to buy one Rats and you are very well set. I suppose you could buy a second Rats, but those things are fast at eating up your deck.

And, regarding the Cultist discussion, I think getting Three Cultists is the best option and wait until 2 ruins are left and then get a Witch. Your opponent will get in a few more curses, but I think there deck will be more clogged. Honestly, though, I don't know. It is tough to figure out how to play a Cultist/Witch board correctly.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 11:17:03 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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Octo

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2012, 06:49:35 am »
0

@clb - the on-trash effect is a definite plus, but it's useless if you're going BM+Cultist as you have nothing to trash it. To get the most out the Cultist you need to leverage that too, which is where a more sophisticated engine comes into play. However, the ability to chain them, even after the ruins are out, is really strong. In a BM deck they effectively become laboratories when the Ruins are out and this they may lead them to shine over the witch in terms of actually purchasing the provinces. Still, there will be an optimal amount of cultists to buy as too many would be a waste of buys (just like too many labs is a waste of buys, you end up with not enough hard cash).
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DG

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2012, 07:51:45 am »
0

From what I've done on Goko, if you cannot harness the trashing then cultists are not stronger than witches. The chain drawing effect is useful and I suspect that you should buy a second (or third or fourth or fifth) cultist in preference to other cards. Ruins are not as damaging as curses so a tidily played treasure deck could possibly play through.
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dondon151

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Re: Dark Ages benchmarks
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2012, 11:02:30 am »
0

As I'm fairly sure that a Witch/Cultist matchup will 3-pile rather than end on Provinces, the Ruins that the Witch player receives can conceivably lead to marginal shenanigans like Ruined Market -> 2x Estate that bring the game closer to an ending.
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