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Author Topic: Android: Netrunner  (Read 51192 times)

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #75 on: January 04, 2014, 07:24:18 pm »
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I feel like when I'm running on Weyland R&D or something, the difference between Priority Requisition and Hedge Fund is swingy enough.  I don't understand why for Jinteki the possibility has to vary so widely, all the way from 3 point agenda to -3 clicks.

Most of the time a single blind R&D run isn't going to do much. You generally need to combine it with other things to boost success - getting an R&D lock, for example, is extremely powerful (this is where you access R&D every turn, always seeing the Corp's next card, and thus ensuring they can't draw Agendas without spending clicks to draw extra cards). Other ways to boost the effectiveness of running R&D is to use cards to access more than one thing at once (e.g. The Makers Eye, Medium, in the base set), trash lots of things out of R&D to try and find agendas (e.g. Demolition Run, especially combined with the previous two) or other various tricks introduced in expansions.

Jinteki are always the tricks and traps faction. The main thing with Snare is less the damage it will do occasionally when you access it, but the threat of potentially accessing it forcing you to have your hand size at a decent level.

Oh, and 3 cards is less than 3 clicks. Probably closer to 2 clicks. You don't HAVE to draw back up after hitting a Snare, and you will probably have ways of drawing more or drawing what you want to fill in the gaps, e.g. Diesel, Special Orders, Djinn. So the damage isn't really that huge. Add to that you can trash the Snare at no cost, removing one of at most 3 of them from their deck...

There's that new Jinteki identity that requires you to run R&D to access a remote server, though :(.  Unless you run HQ, which will have even higher snare density, or archives, which has no potential benefit.

I wouldn't call it new, it was the 3rd identity released beyond the base game :P. It also requires you to only make a run on a central server, not to be successful, or to access cards, and I'm not sure what point you're making about the different Central servers is. Why would HQ have a higher Snare Density? Also if I access a card from H&Q and it's a Snare, and they activate it, I just lowered the Corp's hand size by one and their credit pool by 1, while I lost 3 cards. That's not much worse than just seeing a card I can't trash or steal.

Also, if you're playing against Jinteki, their whole manifesto is tricks and traps everywhere. If you don't hit ANY of their traps, you're very likely going to win. Even if you hit a few Snares and whatnot you're still in a decent position.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

popsofctown

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2014, 01:05:42 am »
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You still have to encounter a piece of ice when you make a run, right? That's at the very least a credit and a click before you can run something successfully.  Or just a click if Archives is still naked, but it's not hard to drop one ice on Archives just to be irritating.

Snare has higher density in hand than in deck because Snare is less likely to get played than Ice or Operations, so the zone becomes "biased" towards snares while the deck is just fully random.
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Grujah

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2014, 07:05:44 am »
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Is it just me, or runner wins waaay more often than Corp (like 8:2 at least, judging by many videos on Team Covenant on youtube from various tourneys)
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2014, 10:09:25 am »
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it's not actually that bad: look at the 2012 worlds for example, first runner died to junebug and the second to SE. I think the actually statistics are something like 60-40. Even that is quite annoying though.

Re: Snare
Jinteki's main thing is that since they have ice that's bad at keeping the runner out of their servers, they make it less profitable to run. It's a half-flavor half-balance thing, and keep in mind the corp does still have to pay 4 money for it to activate.
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Lekkit

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2014, 10:46:21 am »
+1

While I can see how it seems very unfair at first. It's really not.

Drawing cards for Runners are worth less clicks than credits are for Corps. Therefore the 4 credit cost to activate Snare is actually quite reasonable. Add to that that you want to run 3 of it to decrease the randomness of it. That's 6 influence outside of Jinteki. And just like every other Jinteki trap they are best outside of Jinteki. That doesn't prevent most of the Jinteki decks from playing 3 Snares, though. But against Jinteki you're prepared.

While accessing a snare from the top of the R&D seems like random luck, you'll have to take into consideration how high the chance of hitting stuff you want/don't want. Assume your oponent has 3 Snares. He also has 3 Nisei MK II, 3 Private Security Force and 3 Priority Requisition (with Core only). So out of 12 worthwile cards 3 are Snares. While it's higher chance to hit an Agenda, it's not that low chance to hit a Snare. Assuming you hit something worthwile, which is not true in many cases. Which is why R&D runs are mostly good for knowing which cards the Corp will throw at you.

Also, if you play a couple of games against Criminals, you'll notice how good the fact that Snare exists is. They can be aggressive, but the mere possibility of you running Snares will hold them back a little. It's one of those cards that are needed to make sure the first two turns aren't, Run, Run, Run, Run.

Speaking of Criminals, they are the main reason why I don't think Replicating Perfection is that good. Between Desperado and the often splashed Data Suckers, they just make a run on the cheapest central and get good benefit from it. ICEing Archives is good and all, but unless it's an ICE that hurts you, you'll be fine. Any ICE that "just" end the run is basically only a click extra to run a remote server. And protecting three centrals is MUCH harder than protecting two (which is the usual way to do it). It's the reason why Sneakdoor Beta is such a good card.

I don't want to sound judgemental here, but the best way to keep the Corp player in check is to run a lot. Make him rez ICE that's how you keep their economy down. By being aggressive you'l limit their plays. That's the strength of the runner. If you let them bank 10+ credits you'll be sitting there guessing what ICE they have and how many Agendas they can score off their SanSan that they haven't even rezzed. If you do that you'll see that it's not uncommon for the Corp to sit on less than 4 credits when you access cards. And then you really benefit from hitting that Snare.
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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #80 on: January 05, 2014, 11:06:05 am »
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The runner win rate is more like 52:48 currently, on OCTGN, I believe. It's very close to balanced but with a slight edge to the runner.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #81 on: January 05, 2014, 02:09:00 pm »
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Yeah, I know. The 60-40 figure is from the top level (1%) of play.
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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #82 on: January 05, 2014, 07:52:34 pm »
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it's not actually that bad: look at the 2012 worlds for example, first runner died to junebug and the second to SE. I think the actually statistics are something like 60-40. Even that is quite annoying though.

This game?


He takes 2$ rather than removing the tag and he was well in the money, meh. And Corp player puts down a wrong card near the end. Awesome game, otherwise.

I've never played a game of this but I've watched so many videos that I almost know all the cards already  ;D
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 08:01:07 pm by Grujah »
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popsofctown

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2014, 01:49:56 am »
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I will take your word for it I guess, because I know less.  Can we agree the job does a terrible job of explaining/introducing new players to the possibilities there, though.  My very first game was a runner with 6 AP losing to a level 2 Project Junebug, and then after that I was pretty sure the main idea was not to run on -installed- Jinteki stuff.
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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2014, 01:53:11 am »
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How would i go about playing one of you guys on octgn
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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #85 on: January 06, 2014, 02:26:02 am »
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I will take your word for it I guess, because I know less.  Can we agree the job does a terrible job of explaining/introducing new players to the possibilities there, though.  My very first game was a runner with 6 AP losing to a level 2 Project Junebug, and then after that I was pretty sure the main idea was not to run on -installed- Jinteki stuff.

I think the main thing here is that while flatlining the Runner happens every once in a while, and running a deck that often wins by doing that is viable, the second win con for the Runner isn't. To deck out the Corp. So right now, I feel like there's two ways for the Corp to win and only one for the Runner. And also the high damage stuff will pretty much always be frustrating. Whether it's running into a random Snare or getting trapped into running on Edge of World.

Regarding playing on OCTGN, I'm busy today and tomorrow, but I'm free on wednesday and thursday and would love to get a game or two in then. You can friend me on there. Username is Lekkit.
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popsofctown

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2014, 02:33:06 am »
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You gotta wait until school starts to be available, darnit :(
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popsofctown

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2014, 02:33:54 am »
+2

It's okay, I have a date tomorrow.  And you know what happens on the second date.  I take her back to my place, light some candles, and break out the Bureaucrats.
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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2014, 03:25:01 am »
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I will take your word for it I guess, because I know less.  Can we agree the job does a terrible job of explaining/introducing new players to the possibilities there, though.  My very first game was a runner with 6 AP losing to a level 2 Project Junebug, and then after that I was pretty sure the main idea was not to run on -installed- Jinteki stuff.

It's a FFG game, explaining things badly and having walls of FAQs and errata is part of the package honestly.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2014, 11:56:12 am »
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I will take your word for it I guess, because I know less.  Can we agree the job does a terrible job of explaining/introducing new players to the possibilities there, though.  My very first game was a runner with 6 AP losing to a level 2 Project Junebug, and then after that I was pretty sure the main idea was not to run on -installed- Jinteki stuff.

It's a FFG game, explaining things badly and having walls of FAQs and errata is part of the package honestly.

QFT.
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Grujah

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2014, 10:10:04 am »
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I've just realized that you actually DO NOT get 3 of each card in Core Set. You get 2 and 1 one of some, which makes you have to buy 2 or 3 sets to have everything.

Isn't that really against what LCG should be? Be once and be set?

This turns me off buying it, A LOT.
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hsiale

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2014, 11:29:31 am »
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The problem of core set is that it also is (for quite many people) a game-in-a-box buy. Which means it should be easy to use and interesting as a single core set with prebuit decks.

The current core set is good at it. Prebuilt decks are simple to assemble (take all cards for a faction, add all neutrals, go). If all cards were filled to 3-of, it would be more complicated to assemble them and adding ~80 cards more would drive the price up, making people less likely to purchase. Yes, if you want to be competitive, you will have to get more than one set. But you'd want to do this anyway most probably, as being a competitive player you're likely to want to have more than one deck built at the same time, so it's good to have more core set 3-of staples. Together with my gf we have 3 cores, 2 of every expansion, and if money was not an issue, we'd probably have a bit more to have more various decks ready.

Most likely all you'd want is a second core which you can buy used. You definitely can be competitive with this. If you play just casually, you don't need even the second one. Third is for people who want to be able to build every deck they imagine, or for people sharing their card pool with someone else.
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popsofctown

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2014, 01:07:53 pm »
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Nah.  I think they should have done a runner core set with  Shaper, HB, Jinteki, NBN filled out to 3-ofs, then a corp core set with Criminal, Anarchist, Weyland filled out to 3-ofs.  Would be easier to get a full collection.
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hsiale

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2014, 06:34:05 pm »
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Would be easier to get a full collection.
This would be terrible from a new player's point of view. 3 or 4 decks in the box instead of 7 is way less replayability.

I think the perfect solution would be getting rid of 1-ofs. For example cutting Aesop's Pawnshop, Ice Carver and Data Dealer for second copies of consoles, cutting Akitaro Watanabe for second Zaibatsu Loyality or the other way round, cutting a Tollbooth, an Ichi 1.0 and a Shadow to add second Corporate Troubleshooter, SanSan City Grid and Security Subcontract. Then two players getting 3 core sets would each have a playset.

But the current model is not that bad. You can be competitive with two core sets, and you have good use for many of the cards from second one. LCG model is quite new and I guess in a few years Fantasy Flight will learn how to use it better. Netrunner is huge improvement anyway - Game of Thrones LCG core set is mostly 1-ofs with a few 2-ofs, so to be competitive you really need 3 cores. And some expansions also didn't contain 3 copies of each card (they were later reprinted in 3-of format).
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Lekkit

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #94 on: January 08, 2014, 08:11:37 pm »
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To be competitive you need 3 of some of the 1 of cards. Desperado comes to mind.
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Grujah

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2014, 08:24:49 pm »
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If they only made a "completetion set" but of course, that lands them less money, sigh.
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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2014, 10:28:16 pm »
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To be competitive you need 3 of some of the 1 of cards. Desperado comes to mind.
Even with the console restriction? Damn that thing is busted
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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2014, 10:15:12 am »
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To be competitive you need 3 of some of the 1 of cards. Desperado comes to mind.
Even with the console restriction? Damn that thing is busted

If you're a Criminal runner, then yes. Even with the console restriction. If you're not, then 2 might be enough, but you'd still prefer 3 if you have the influence. You want that Desperado up and running as soon as possible. And yes, it's busted.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2014, 10:32:24 am »
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I've just realized that you actually DO NOT get 3 of each card in Core Set. You get 2 and 1 one of some, which makes you have to buy 2 or 3 sets to have everything.

Isn't that really against what LCG should be? Be once and be set?

This turns me off buying it, A LOT.

Yeah, it would really be nicer the other way, but 2 core sets, or 3 for two people works pretty well. With the second option, both people get a full set of the two-ofs, and there are 3 of the one-ofs for one person. (and with two people, they might want to build different kinds of decks, like katman vs andy or something)
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Re: Android: Netrunner
« Reply #99 on: January 09, 2014, 10:43:22 am »
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Also, the draft sets will work as "booster packs", so there will be additional copies out.
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