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[AdamH]

Pronunciations:

Maybe it's a good idea for us to have a resource for how to pronounce each of the card names. I played some games recently where people pronounced things strangely -- some I was OK with, but the one that gets me every time is Golem.

People always say it like the Lord of the Rings character Gollum, like "GAH-lum" where I've only known the correct way to say the word to be "GOAL-um" or maybe "GO-lum". It hits the same chord with me as when people call a clownfish a "Nemo fish."

Anyways, I know most of them are trivial, like Feast. But several are rather unique words that I certainly didn't know before Dominion. I'll list a few here, and maybe if it's a good idea we could compile a list of all cards and their pronunciations (or at least all the weird ones).

Golem -- "GOAL-um" or "GO-lum" . NOT LotR Character Gollum, "GAH-lum"

Mountebank -- is it "MOUNT-uh-bank" or "MONT-uh-bank" or "MONT-uh-bonk"?

Feodum -- Was it "FEE-uh-dum" or "FAY-uh-dum" or "FAY-oh-dum"? [after scouring F.DS for the answer, I think the second option was mentioned to be correct?]

Hovel -- "HUH-vill" or "HAH-vill" or maybe "ho-VELL"? [Google gives me either of the first two as being correct]

Wharf -- "Worf" or "Hworf"?

I always enjoy saying Duchy like "Dukey", and when Dukes are in the game I say them exactly the same way for maximum confusion, and more opportunities to tell someone they're "taking a dukey." Go ahead, judge me on my maturity, I deserve it.

Plurals:

I realize Isotropic is a wonderful resource for this, but it won't be around forever, and even though I haven't looked very hard for it, I haven't seen any plural card names on the Goko version. Also, if there are weird pronunciation issues with the regular names, maybe there are for the plurals as well: Oases - comes to mind, "oh-AY-sees"

Feoda - soo... how do we pronounce this? "FAY-uh-duh"? That doesn't seem right...
Feodums - "FAY-uh-dums"

Fool's Golds

Singular card names that are plural: Nobles, Gardens, Smugglers, Rats, Spoils, Survivors, Ruins, Ironworks or Goons - umm, what do we do here? (Nobleses, Gardenses, Smugglerses, Ratses, Spoilses, Survivorses, Ruinses, Ironworkses, Goonses) and/or (Nobles, Gardens, Smugglers, Rats, Spoils, Survivors, Ruins, Ironworks, Goons)?

[Kirian]

According to Wiki, so take with a grain of salt, the Hebrew pronunciation is GOH-lem, rhymes with "Roll 'Em."  They invented the concept, so I'd go with that.

Hovel:  I've always heard the first, the second is probably common in Northeastern US dialects, and possibly Brit English.

Wharf is only pronounced "Hwarf" if you want to sound obnoxious or like Stewie Griffin.

[AJD]

Pronunciations:
some I was OK with, but the one that gets me every time is Golem.

People always say it like the Lord of the Rings character Gollum, like "GAH-lum" where I've only known the correct way to say the word to be "GOAL-um" or maybe "GO-lum".

Thank you; this drives me up the wall. I suspect this is people not realizing that "golem" and "Gollum" are two different words (and probably unrelated—but I have no specific evidence for whether or not Tolkien was influenced by "golem" in making up the name "Gollum").

Feodum -- Was it "FEE-uh-dum" or "FAY-uh-dum" or "FAY-oh-dum"? [after scouring F.DS for the answer, I think the second option was mentioned to be correct?]

Since this one isn't an English word, it's hard to say...

[AdamH]

Wharf is only pronounced "Hwarf" if you want to sound obnoxious or like Stewie Griffin.

Stewie Griffin is what I was going for. That was the "joking" paragraph, as was denoted by the toungey-face and the proximity to dukey-talk.

Coalition against people saying Gollum while I'm playing Dominion!

[AJD]

Hovel:  I've always heard the first, the second is probably common in Northeastern US dialects, and possibly Brit English.

<a href="http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~dinkin/">As a sociolinguist</a>, I'm interested in why you have this impression. Why those dialects in particular? (OED gives both pronunciations equal status, as do the American Heritage Dictionary and Merriam-Webster.)

Wharf is only pronounced "Hwarf" if you want to sound obnoxious or like Stewie Griffin.

...Or, you know, if you're one of the millions of other English speakers who distinguish between witch and weather on the one hand and which and whether on the other.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Wharf is only pronounced "Hwarf" if you want to sound obnoxious or like Stewie Griffin.

...Or, you know, if you're one of the millions of other English speakers who distinguish between witch and weather on the one hand and which and whether on the other.

Usually context should be sufficient to tell witch of these you intend to say, regardless of weather or not you pronounce the "h".

[eHalcyon]

...Or, you know, if you're one of the millions of other English speakers who distinguish between witch and weather on the one hand and which and whether on the other.

What's wrong with having a few homophones?

[werothegreat]

I say DOOK-ee.  Always have, always will.  I mean, a DOOK-ee is run by a DOOK, so why would I call it a DUTCH-ee?  I don't call it a KONG-dom. 

[Kirian]

Hovel:  I've always heard the first, the second is probably common in Northeastern US dialects, and possibly Brit English.

<a href="http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~dinkin/">As a sociolinguist</a>, I'm interested in why you have this impression. Why those dialects in particular? (OED gives both pronunciations equal status, as do the American Heritage Dictionary and Merriam-Webster.)

That longer "ah" tends to creep into words in Boston, NY, and Maine accents in places that use the schwa or a shorter "a."  Less true for British English, I suspect, but the various British dialects have much more in common with the New England area than the rest of the US.

Wharf is only pronounced "Hwarf" if you want to sound obnoxious or like Stewie Griffin.

...Or, you know, if you're one of the millions of other English speakers who distinguish between witch and weather on the one hand and which and whether on the other.

I have never heard anyone do this.  According to Wiki (again with a grain of salt, but they cite Labov), this is basically confined to Scotland, Ireland, and parts of the Southeast US (which retain some other characteristics of the Scottish dialect.)  Everyone else doing it is doing so to sound pretentious.

[Archetype]

what about Laboratory?

I pronounce it La-BOR-ah-TOR-ee because it's fun to say

[shMerker]

Coalition against people saying Gollum while I'm playing Dominion!

I say it whenever I decide to break PPR to because I still only have two provinces.

[Razzishi]

Since feodum is not an English word you should follow the rules for Latin, which says the stress on feodum falls on the first syllable (Wikitionary says the 'o' is not long, so the stress does not fall there).  The pronunciation of 'e' is a "long A" as in IPA /e/, but not diphthonged into /ei/ as is common in many dialects (users of such dialects generally don't even realize there is a separate vowel sound for the first half is their long A, and use the diphthonged version in foreign words when just the first half should be used). 

Mountebank comes from Italian monta-in-banco "mount a bench", which is what mountebanks did to hawk their wares apparently.  The Italians would say "mont" but in English it would be "mount".  The 'a' should be the same as you use in "bank", which depends on dialect.

[dondon151]

*Pronunciations

[DsnowMan]

I want to pretend Mountebank is french, so we say "MONT-uh-banc", which is really close to "MONT-uh-bonk"

[AJD]

...Or, you know, if you're one of the millions of other English speakers who distinguish between witch and weather on the one hand and which and whether on the other.

What's wrong with having a few homophones?

Nothing, of course. But if two words aren't homophones, shouldn't someone want to know which is witch?

[AJD]

I mean, a DOOK-ee is run by a DOOK, so why would I call it a DUTCH-ee?

Actual answer: because in Old French, k turned into ch when followed by a.

[mameluke]

Wow, more Dominion-playing linguists? Count me in.

As far as [hw] goes, I've heard it among some speakers in the southwest--perhaps due to influence from Spanish which has [hw] in words like juez, but it could also just be a phenomenon from older speakers of English.

[RiemannZetaJones]

I have never heard anyone do this.  According to Wiki (again with a grain of salt, but they cite Labov), this is basically confined to Scotland, Ireland, and parts of the Southeast US (which retain some other characteristics of the Scottish dialect.)  Everyone else doing it is doing so to sound pretentious.

That's at least 10 million people.

[AJD]

Hovel:  I've always heard the first, the second is probably common in Northeastern US dialects, and possibly Brit English.

<a href="http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~dinkin/">As a sociolinguist</a>, I'm interested in why you have this impression. Why those dialects in particular? (OED gives both pronunciations equal status, as do the American Heritage Dictionary and Merriam-Webster.)

That longer "ah" tends to creep into words in Boston, NY, and Maine accents in places that use the schwa or a shorter "a."  Less true for British English, I suspect, but the various British dialects have much more in common with the New England area than the rest of the US.

Hmm, interesting. So yeah, what's going on here is a fact that Labov's occasionally observed—namely, stereotypes get attached to particular vowel sounds, not to the specific distribution of them or the set of words that contain them. So the ah-type vowel is in fact associated with the Boston and standard British accents in words like aunt, half, ask, and so on—this has nothing to do with hovel, since the words that exceptionally have ah in Boston have the "trap" vowel in other dialects, not the "strut" vowel. But the stereotype doesn't get attached to "Bostonians use the ah vowel instead of the 'trap' vowel"—the stereotype is just "Bostonians use the ah vowel a lot," so when you're considering an alternation between ah and a completely different vowel, you still associate ah with Boston. This is legitimately really fascinating.

Actually this is slightly more complicated, since in the Boston accent and standard British English, ah isn't the same as the short-o-as-in-stop vowel; and the pronunciation at issue involves the "stop" vowel, not ah. So even Boston-accented people who do use the pronunciation of hovel at issue don't use the ah vowel in it. Which isn't relevant for explaining the reasoning above.

Wharf is only pronounced "Hwarf" if you want to sound obnoxious or like Stewie Griffin.

...Or, you know, if you're one of the millions of other English speakers who distinguish between witch and weather on the one hand and which and whether on the other.

I have never heard anyone do this.  According to Wiki (again with a grain of salt, but they cite Labov), this is basically confined to Scotland, Ireland, and parts of the Southeast US (which retain some other characteristics of the Scottish dialect.)

...That's millions.

Anyhow, that's a bit of an exaggeration—the which-witch distinction isn't confined to the South in the US, though it's certainly most frequent there (and even that's not saying much). It still turns up sporadically in other parts of the country; I have two close friends, both under the age of 35, who make the which-witch distinction natively, and they're from New Jersey (though with one parent from the South) and Michigan.

Everyone else doing it is doing so to sound pretentious.

Nobody tries to sound pretentious. Lots of people try for something else and land on pretentious, though.

[Qvist]

One thing I always ask myself. What is the plural of Fool's Gold? Fool's Golds sounds strange...
And how do people call multiple cards of a card which has a plural in name like Nobles, Gardens, Smugglers, Rats, Spoils, Survivors or Goons? Does it stay the same or is it best to say "Nobles cards" or "Gardens cards"?
Not that it matters often, but what is the plural of Necropolis?

BTW: Plural of Feodum is Feoda.

[kn1tt3r]

What is the plural of Fool's Gold? Fool's Gplds sounds strange...

It really does...

[Qvist]

Oh sorry. Corrected

[Davio]

One thing I always ask myself. What is the plural of Fool's Gold? Fool's Golds sounds strange...
And how do people call multiple cards of a card which has a plural in name like Nobles, Gardens, Smugglers, Rats, Spoils, Survivors or Goons? Does it stay the same or is it best to say "Nobles cards" or "Gardens cards"?
Not that it matters often, but what is the plural of Necropolis?

BTW: Plural of Feodum is Feoda.

Those ones are easy.

It's obviously Nobility, Park, Ring, Plague, War Treasury, Lost and Mafia.

[Asklepios]

Just to clarify, how do you pronounce Mountebank? I never saw the word before Dominion, and our play group has been saying "mount'i'bank".

I'm expectign we're wrong. We played the Mage: the Ascension rpg for about five years before a new player pointed out we were saying Arete wrong. (we were saying areet, rather than airt-ay, which was kind of embarassing)

[PitzerMike]

I say DOOK-ee.  Always have, always will.  I mean, a DOOK-ee is run by a DOOK, so why would I call it a DUTCH-ee?  I don't call it a KONG-dom.

Well, duchy is fine if you can imagine a duchy being run by a douche.

[cayvie]

We played the Mage: the Ascension rpg for about five years

my condolences

[Axxle]

what about Laboratory?

I pronounce it La-BOR-ah-TOR-ee because it's fun to say

I just checked youtube forever and couldn't find a "Dee-dee get out of my La-BOR-ah-TOR-ee!" clip.  Made me very sad.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Everyone else doing it is doing so to sound pretentious.

Nobody tries to sound pretentious. Lots of people try for something else and land on pretentious, though.

I most strenuously disagree.

[AdamH]

Kirian, AJD, Razzishi - I develop software for a living. I got terrible grades in my English classes. I arguably know more about Spanish grammar than English. I mean, I can't even spell "Pronounciations" [sic]. I read what you wrote, but I'll be honest, I didn't really understand a lot of it. If perhaps there is something that I haven't gotten from your words that you intended me to get, maybe you could re-explain it to me in little words (one or two syllables is preferable, you see what Pronounciations [sic] did to me...) so that simple people like myself who never have to interact with human beings can learn from you as well.

I updated my initial post with what looks like the consensus for each word that's been talked about. If anyone disagrees, please speak up. I also added what appear to still be open questions. The single-card-plural-name thing could probably be answered by Isotropic pretty easily, but I won't be able to check until late tonight at the earliest.

To be clear once again, I intended the "Hwarf" comment to be a joke. If this is actually a serious contention (I can't tell, TBH; too many big words :-P) then again, please correct me.

...but to my credit, that big P word has five syllables, and I nailed four of them. That's an 80%, which would usually be the highest grade in any engineering course, and given the curve, would easily be an A+. I am satisfied with my work.

[Donald X.]

"In all directions lie fiefs, freeholds, and feodums." Feodum has been anglicized. The plural is now feodums. I'm the only one who's been using the word, and that's what I use, and well usage is all that counts in the end.

Compare dominion. That comes from Latin too, but we don't say "two dominium." And it's two condominiums, not two condominia. That's just the way it goes.

Style guides will tell you to just slap -s or -es onto proper nouns to get the plural. It really is Ruinses. Filthy rotten ruinses. We hates them! In practice Magic players routinely talk about having Cities of Brass and Birds of Paradise and so forth, adopting the plural that the thing would have if only it weren't proper. I think that's the wave of the future, but if you are timid you can dodge it for the moment by saying two copies of Smugglers and so on.

[aaron0013]

In reply to the above post I'm pretty sure that we have settled on GOAL-UM, MOUNT-UH-BANK, and FAY-UH-DUM.

@Qvist: Personally, I just say that I'm playing another nobles, or I have two nobles. Players can always understand what I'm saying, and I think it is a lot less confusing than other methods.

[AJD]

Just to clarify, how do you pronounce Mountebank? I never saw the word before Dominion, and our play group has been saying "mount'i'bank".

The first syllable is like Mount, as in Mount Everest. The last syllable is like Bank, as in Bank of America. The middle syllable is a schwa.

We played the Mage: the Ascension rpg for about five years before a new player pointed out we were saying Arete wrong. (we were saying areet, rather than airt-ay, which was kind of embarassing)

According to the dictionaries I checked just now, "arete" (in English) is pronounced either like "irate" but with a schwa instead of the I (American Heritage Dictionary and Merriam-Webster), or like "barrette" without the B (OED).

[AJD]

To be clear once again, I intended the "Hwarf" comment to be a joke. If this is actually a serious contention (I can't tell, TBH; too many big words :-P) then again, please correct me.

The point is just the following: The question "Is wharf pronounced like Worf or like 'hworf'?" doesn't have a correct answer that applies to all English-speaking people. If you speak one of the dialects of English in which "w" and "wh" have systematically different pronunciations, wharf has "wh", not "w"; and describing it as being pronounced like Worf is just wrong. If you speak one of the dialects of English in which "w" and "wh" are systematically pronounced the same, then yes of course wharf is pronounced like Worf.

[AdamH]

So my goal is to include all acceptable pronunciations (see, I did it right that time without even copy/pasting!)

If Worf and Hworf are both acceptable then they are both acceptable

If GAH-lum is a different word (which is IS! >:O) then I don't want to include it

If MONT-uh-bonk is a form of "Engrish" then I don't want to include it, but if it's someone with a French accent saying the word and it's acceptable, then cool. My inclination is towards the first, but I'm not sure.

As far as the plurals, I suppose it makes sense to smack an "-es" on the end, though I don't know that I'd ever actually say the word "Smugglerses," due in part to the fact that I'd have to buy two of them for it to even come up. But I'm pretty sure I'd have noticed that word on Iso...

It raises a question to me, though: is "Smugglers" still acceptable when talking about more than one Smugglers? A similar question for all of those other words.

[AJD]

So my goal is to include all acceptable pronunciations (see, I did it right that time without even copy/pasting!)

If Worf and Hworf are both acceptable then they are both acceptable

This way madness lies, though. You really don't want to have to account for and specify all of the systematic dialect differences that can affect the pronunciation of a given word. Is wharf pronounced like whawf? Well, yes if you speak a dialect of English in which "r" is systematically deleted before a consonant and therefore tort and taut are pronounced the same; no otherwise (and both are possible if you speak a dialect in which such deletion is optional). Is it pronounced like wore plus an F? Well, yes if you speak a dialect where words like hoarse and horse are pronounced the same (and which and witch are also pronounced the same); no otherwise. The possibilities really multiply.

But on the other hand, if you just describe the pronunciation of wharf in simple terms—
WH as in which
AR as in war
F as in almost any word that has an F in it
—there's no ambiguity, and no more than one correct pronunciation at this level of abstraction... which is the correct description.

[mameluke]

I had the plural problem with "Ironworks" the other day IRL. I usually settle for the null plural ("... with a Talisman in play, I gain two Ironworks") but after a few drink it somehow came out as "Ironsworks", possibly on analogy with passersby or some such.

[werothegreat]

Okay, I am all for saying Ruinses and Ratses.  But there is no way I'm saying "Goonses" or "Nobleses."  I'm buying two Nobles and that's final.

[KingsSkort]

"In all directions lie fiefs, freeholds, and feodums." Feodum has been anglicized. The plural is now feodums. I'm the only one who's been using the word, and that's what I use, and well usage is all that counts in the end.

Compare dominion. That comes from Latin too, but we don't say "two dominium." And it's two condominiums, not two condominia. That's just the way it goes.

Style guides will tell you to just slap -s or -es onto proper nouns to get the plural. It really is Ruinses. Filthy rotten ruinses. We hates them! In practice Magic players routinely talk about having Cities of Brass and Birds of Paradise and so forth, adopting the plural that the thing would have if only it weren't proper. I think that's the wave of the future, but if you are timid you can dodge it for the moment by saying two copies of Smugglers and so on.

Style guides will also tell you to avoid saying things that sound weird or unnatural. Ruinses or Smugglerses (!!) are just awful. "He was dealing out two Ruins a turn!" or "I got a bunch of Smugglers cause I love swinginess and terminal collision." are way better.

I can't tell if you're really suggesting that the correct plural of City of Brass is City of Brasses, but you shouldn't be.

[Kirian]

Compare dominion. That comes from Latin too, but we don't say "two dominium." And it's two condominiums, not two condominia. That's just the way it goes.

Except that Dominion itself has, as you suggest, been Anglicized (or more properly Francophonized [note: probably not a real word]).  The -on ending definitely isn't Latin.

Style guides will tell you to just slap -s or -es onto proper nouns to get the plural. It really is Ruinses. Filthy rotten ruinses.

Except that the names of the cards aren't necessarily proper nouns, are they?  The plural of "ruins" in the sense being used on the cards certainly is "ruins."

In practice Magic players routinely talk about having Cities of Brass and Birds of Paradise and so forth, adopting the plural that the thing would have if only it weren't proper.

I think most people would adopt that; the pluralization obviously goes on the noun, proper or not.

[werothegreat]

Compare dominion. That comes from Latin too, but we don't say "two dominium." And it's two condominiums, not two condominia. That's just the way it goes.

Except that Dominion itself has, as you suggest, been Anglicized (or more properly Francophonized [note: probably not a real word]).  The -on ending definitely isn't Latin.

Frenchified.

[Kuildeous]

Compare dominion. That comes from Latin too, but we don't say "two dominium." And it's two condominiums, not two condominia. That's just the way it goes.

Except that Dominion itself has, as you suggest, been Anglicized (or more properly Francophonized [note: probably not a real word]).  The -on ending definitely isn't Latin.

Frenchified.

Mmm, French-fried.

[AdamH]

But on the other hand, if you just describe the pronunciation of wharf in simple terms—
WH as in which
AR as in war
F as in almost any word that has an F in it
—there's no ambiguity, and no more than one correct pronunciation at this level of abstraction... which is the correct description.

I'll play the part of the guy that doesn't know anything about language. I suppose I'd be pretty good at doing that, since I'm a great actor.

I thought that dictionaries had special symbols for all of those things you described. Half of them were the same as the letters themselves, and the other half were goofy-lookin' things like an upside-down 'e' (which I know is called a schwa and represents the "uh" sound, but that's the only one I actually know). Would I be mistaken if I were to say that it's feasible to create some list of acceptable pronunciations (HA!) that could vary with different dialects? Gosh, I don't even know what I dialect is! I don't want this thing to get really complicated, because if it does, I'll just have to write a computer program about it, and nobody here wants that...

It appears I was hasty in assuming the debate over the weird plural names was over because Donald had chimed in. Call me star-struck I guess. (ZOMG THE CREATOR OF DOMINION REPLIED TO MY POST!!! *faints*)

[AJD]

But on the other hand, if you just describe the pronunciation of wharf in simple terms—
WH as in which
AR as in war
F as in almost any word that has an F in it
—there's no ambiguity, and no more than one correct pronunciation at this level of abstraction... which is the correct description.

I'll play the part of the guy that doesn't know anything about language. I suppose I'd be pretty good at doing that, since I'm a great actor.

I thought that dictionaries had special symbols for all of those things you described. Half of them were the same as the letters themselves, and the other half were goofy-lookin' things like an upside-down 'e' (which I know is called a schwa and represents the "uh" sound, but that's the only one I actually know). Would I be mistaken if I were to say that it's feasible to create some list of acceptable pronunciations (HA!) that could vary with different dialects?

I mean, not at all mistaken... but the real answer is, you know, except for "Feodum" all the Dominion card names are English words, and you can look up the pronunciation of them in a dictionary, where they'll be transcribed—hopefully—in a way that should be mappable to the correct pronunciation in any more-or-less standard dialect.

[Asklepios]

According to the dictionaries I checked just now, "arete" (in English) is pronounced either like "irate" but with a schwa instead of the I (American Heritage Dictionary and Merriam-Webster), or like "barrette" without the B (OED).

So even after being corrected by a pronunciation pedant all those years ago I'm STILL pronouncing it wrong?

Hah!

[XnFM]

I can't tell if you're really suggesting that the correct plural of City of Brass is City of Brasses, but you shouldn't be.

Now I'm neither an English major, nor a linguist, but I'm pretty sure it is, technically, correct.

If you were to refer to an array of ingots of different copper/zinc alloys, wouldn't you refer to them collectively as "brasses"? I would suggest that the technically correct plural of "City of Brass" is "City of Brasses," however because it sounds unnatural sentence constructions requiring it should be avoided.

"Look at all those copies of City of Brass."
"Look at all the City of Brasses."

Both of the above are correct, however the former is more natural and flows better and thus is the preferred construction.

[eHalcyon]

I can't tell if you're really suggesting that the correct plural of City of Brass is City of Brasses, but you shouldn't be.

Now I'm neither an English major, nor a linguist, but I'm pretty sure it is, technically, correct.

If you were to refer to an array of ingots of different copper/zinc alloys, wouldn't you refer to them collectively as "brasses"? I would suggest that the technically correct plural of "City of Brass" is "City of Brasses," however because it sounds unnatural sentence constructions requiring it should be avoided.

"Look at all those copies of City of Brass."
"Look at all the City of Brasses."

Both of the above are correct, however the former is more natural and flows better and thus is the preferred construction.

"City of Brasses" and "Cities of Brass" have rather different meanings.

But if it's a reference to the MTG card, I think the easy way would be "City of Brass cards".

[XnFM]

I can't tell if you're really suggesting that the correct plural of City of Brass is City of Brasses, but you shouldn't be.

Now I'm neither an English major, nor a linguist, but I'm pretty sure it is, technically, correct.

If you were to refer to an array of ingots of different copper/zinc alloys, wouldn't you refer to them collectively as "brasses"? I would suggest that the technically correct plural of "City of Brass" is "City of Brasses," however because it sounds unnatural sentence constructions requiring it should be avoided.

"Look at all those copies of City of Brass."
"Look at all the City of Brasses."

Both of the above are correct, however the former is more natural and flows better and thus is the preferred construction.

"City of Brasses" and "Cities of Brass" have rather different meanings.

But if it's a reference to the MTG card, I think the easy way would be "City of Brass cards".

I think you mean "city of brasses" and "cities of brass," have rather different meanings. "City of Brass" is a proper name, and my understanding is that the actual meaning of the English when you pluralize it is irrelevant.

[eHalcyon]

I can't tell if you're really suggesting that the correct plural of City of Brass is City of Brasses, but you shouldn't be.

Now I'm neither an English major, nor a linguist, but I'm pretty sure it is, technically, correct.

If you were to refer to an array of ingots of different copper/zinc alloys, wouldn't you refer to them collectively as "brasses"? I would suggest that the technically correct plural of "City of Brass" is "City of Brasses," however because it sounds unnatural sentence constructions requiring it should be avoided.

"Look at all those copies of City of Brass."
"Look at all the City of Brasses."

Both of the above are correct, however the former is more natural and flows better and thus is the preferred construction.

"City of Brasses" and "Cities of Brass" have rather different meanings.

But if it's a reference to the MTG card, I think the easy way would be "City of Brass cards".

I think you mean "city of brasses" and "cities of brass," have rather different meanings. "City of Brass" is a proper name, and my understanding is that the actual meaning of the English when you pluralize it is irrelevant.

touche.

[theory]

I say DOOK-ee.  Always have, always will.  I mean, a DOOK-ee is run by a DOOK, so why would I call it a DUTCH-ee?  I don't call it a KONG-dom. 

Or, you're just mispronouncing Duke.  Quack quack.

[Voltgloss]

My table calls Duchies "douches."  Especially when having to buy one with $7 during the endgame.

No, they don't call Duchesses "douchesses," but I suspect it's only a matter of time.

And for context:  my table consists of me, my wife, and my mother.  Not sure if that makes things more or less well explained.

[Axxle]

I call duchies "Damn, didn't have enough for a province".

[Drab Emordnilap]

So how do you guys feel about the Toronto Maple Leafs?

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

"The autumn leafs, begin to fall..."

[AJD]

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1204.msg146659#msg146659

[GendoIkari]

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1204.msg146659#msg146659

Ok, I saw that yesterday, didn't get it, and just moved on... but I just now got it... awesome.

[SirPeebles]

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1204.msg146659#msg146659

Ok, I saw that yesterday, didn't get it, and just moved on... but I just now got it... awesome.

I didn't even know that there was something I didn't get until now.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1204.msg146659#msg146659

Ok, I saw that yesterday, didn't get it, and just moved on... but I just now got it... awesome.

And I didn't get it for about 3 minutes after reading this, and thinking about the thread title, etc.  Then the light dawned.  Very clever.

In my defense, I've never won a Princess, so I just ignored the artwork on the card.

[aaron0013]

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1204.msg146659#msg146659

Ok, I saw that yesterday, didn't get it, and just moved on... but I just now got it... awesome.

And I didn't get it for about 3 minutes after reading this, and thinking about the thread title, etc.  Then the light dawned.  Very clever.

In my defense, I've never won a Princess, so I just ignored the artwork on the card.

And I still don't get it

[eHalcyon]

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1204.msg146659#msg146659

Ok, I saw that yesterday, didn't get it, and just moved on... but I just now got it... awesome.

And I didn't get it for about 3 minutes after reading this, and thinking about the thread title, etc.  Then the light dawned.  Very clever.

In my defense, I've never won a Princess, so I just ignored the artwork on the card.

And I still don't get it

Dwharfs.

[aaron0013]

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1204.msg146659#msg146659

Ok, I saw that yesterday, didn't get it, and just moved on... but I just now got it... awesome.

And I didn't get it for about 3 minutes after reading this, and thinking about the thread title, etc.  Then the light dawned.  Very clever.

In my defense, I've never won a Princess, so I just ignored the artwork on the card.

And I still don't get it

Dwharfs.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha! ROLF....almost.

[qmech]

Here's one English perspective on some of the words that are proving controversial.

Mountebank: MOUNT-e-bank
Duke: Dewk (dew as in the moisture on grass in the morning)
Hovel: ho-vul (ho as in hot, not as in hoe)
Wharf: Worf

I tend to leave the plurals as they are: "not 4 Goons again!"

[aaron0013]

Yeah, I definitely don't say "Goonses".

BTW I agree with all of those pronunciations except Hovel.  I say HU-VEL.

[ashersky]

Yeah, I definitely don't say "Goonses".

BTW I agree with all of those pronunciations except Hovel.  I say HU-VEL.

Whether one says it or not isn't really important.  Pluralizing proper nouns is annoying, but ends up that way.

What if aliens some how copied the city of Brussels?  You'd have two Brusselses, not two Brussels. (In English.)

Or put it another way.  One Megan Fox.  Cloned?  Two Megan Foxs (not Foxes).

[ycz6]

What if aliens some how copied the city of Brussels?  You'd have two Brusselses, not two Brussels. (In English.)

Or put it another way.  One Megan Fox.  Cloned?  Two Megan Foxs (not Foxes).

These seem to contradict each other.

[ashersky]

What if aliens some how copied the city of Brussels?  You'd have two Brusselses, not two Brussels. (In English.)

Or put it another way.  One Megan Fox.  Cloned?  Two Megan Foxs (not Foxes).

These seem to contradict each other.

My point is the proper noun doesn't change to suit what we think is proper.

[PSGarak]

The correct form is Megan Foxen.

[Jimmmmm]

On the whole pluralisation thing... Death Cart says hi.

[werothegreat]

The correct form is Megan Foxen.

Megan Vixen?

[werothegreat]

On the whole pluralisation thing... Death Cart says hi.

Death Carts.

[Polk5440]

So here's one reason to think of all the cards as nouns, not proper nouns: THEME.

You are a monarch, like your parents before you, a ruler, of a small pleasant kingdom of rivers and evergreens. Unlike your parents... You want a Dominion!... To do this you will hire minions, construct buildings, spruce up your castle, and fill your treasury.

"I have multiple City cards in my deck" is not thematic. "I have multiple Cities in my Dominion!" is more thematic and more fun. "I have multiple Citys!" is just silly (or is it Cityes?). Getting into the theme, the capitalization is for emphasis and importance (in the spirit of historical excessive capitalization of common nouns) of the things you own in your (imaginary) dominion, not to denote a name of a playing card on your kitchen table.

[In the MTG case, Cities of Brass does not mean multiple City of Brass cards or multiple cities that are named City of Brass, but you own lands which have cities made of brass on them. And they're important. With capitalization for emphasis and normal pluralization, it's all about the THEME!]

In my Dominion I build Cities and Wharves and Embassies, hire Goons and Nobles and Smithies and Thieves, and clear out infestations of Rats and rebuild Ruins. And every person, place, and animal is important to becoming the dominant monarch.

The fact that Donald views Ratses and Ruinses as the correct plurals just means he's not getting into what little theme there is when he plays (or he's secretly role playing as Gollum and Dominion is really set in Middle Earth).

[Jimmmmm]

The fact that Donald views Ratses and Ruinses as the correct plurals

He doesn't - read Death Cart.

[Polk5440]

The fact that Donald views Ratses and Ruinses as the correct plurals

He doesn't - read Death Cart.

It really is Ruinses. Filthy rotten ruinses. We hates them!

Am I missing something?

[Jimmmmm]

The fact that Donald views Ratses and Ruinses as the correct plurals

He doesn't - read Death Cart.

It really is Ruinses. Filthy rotten ruinses. We hates them!

Am I missing something?

Well he SAYS that, but when it comes to actually printing official cards:

[Polk5440]

Huh, I didn't notice that!

[Donald X.]

The fact that Donald views Ratses and Ruinses as the correct plurals just means he's not getting into what little theme there is when he plays (or he's secretly role playing as Gollum and Dominion is really set in Middle Earth).

You're spouting nonsense.

The fact that I view Ruinses as "correct" means I know what style guides tell you to do when pluralizing proper nouns. If you find this suspicious, consider the expression, "keeping up with the Joneses."

Outside of edited material, whatever people do is "correct" - no-one is the arbiter of correct English.

[Polk5440]

The fact that Donald views Ratses and Ruinses as the correct plurals just means he's not getting into what little theme there is when he plays (or he's secretly role playing as Gollum and Dominion is really set in Middle Earth).

You're spouting nonsense.

Wasn't "filthy, rotten ruinses. We hates them" a reference to Gollum's speeches in the LOTR? ("Filthy little hobbitses....Sneaky little hobbitses....We hates them!") I was jokingly referring to your reference of that.... I did not mean to be offensive or spouting nonsense.

The fact that I view Ruinses as "correct" means I know what style guides tell you to do when pluralizing proper nouns. If you find this suspicious, consider the expression, "keeping up with the Joneses."

I agree. I do not find this suspicious. I was just thinking that "theme" might be a reason why the printed words on the cards might NOT be read as proper nouns but as common nouns by some players even if you mean them to be read as proper nouns.

[Donald X.]

Wasn't "filthy, rotten ruinses. We hates them" a reference to Gollum's speeches in the LOTR? ("Filthy little hobbitses....Sneaky little hobbitses....We hates them!") I was jokingly referring to your reference of that.... I did not mean to be offensive or spouting nonsense.

Yes, how could it not be?

I agree. I do not find this suspicious. I was just thinking that "theme" might be a reason why the printed words on the cards might NOT be read as proper nouns but as common nouns by some players even if you mean them to be read as proper nouns.

It's nice that you are just innocently being hilarious. Everyone thinks of City as city, not as a proper noun. No-one says "my deck has four Citys." How much they care about theme has nothing to do with it; "City" is not something they think of as proper.

[cluckyb]

The fact that Donald views Ratses and Ruinses as the correct plurals just means he's not getting into what little theme there is when he plays (or he's secretly role playing as Gollum and Dominion is really set in Middle Earth).

You're spouting nonsense.

The fact that I view Ruinses as "correct" means I know what style guides tell you to do when pluralizing proper nouns. If you find this suspicious, consider the expression, "keeping up with the Joneses."

Outside of edited material, whatever people do is "correct" - no-one is the arbiter of correct English.

So does that mean its proper to say "Ruins isa type of basic cards in Dark Ages. They are weak and undesirable Action cards costing 0 that are typically added to a player's deck as a penalty or attack" (as opposed to are)? I'm not sure what proper nouns have to do with it. If you have one virus and then it breeds you get viruses. "Jones" is singular, ("Jones isn't feeling well so you need to work late"), so if Jones has a family, you have a bunch of Joneses. If Ruinses is proper, then Ruins must be singular as well.

[Donald X.]

So does that mean its proper to say "Ruins isa type of basic cards in Dark Ages. They are weak and undesirable Action cards costing 0 that are typically added to a player's deck as a penalty or attack" (as opposed to are)? I'm not sure what proper nouns have to do with it. If you have one virus and then it breeds you get viruses. "Jones" is singular, ("Jones isn't feeling well so you need to work late"), so if Jones has a family, you have a bunch of Joneses. If Ruinses is proper, then Ruins must be singular as well.

If you want to know what a style guide says to do, check a style guide! It doesn't seem worthwhile for me to try to make it clear to you what style guides say, when after all they are not all identical.

I have already indicated that I am not a language prescriptivist. Try to communicate clearly, that's what matters.

[ashersky]

The fact that Donald views Ratses and Ruinses as the correct plurals just means he's not getting into what little theme there is when he plays (or he's secretly role playing as Gollum and Dominion is really set in Middle Earth).

You're spouting nonsense.

The fact that I view Ruinses as "correct" means I know what style guides tell you to do when pluralizing proper nouns. If you find this suspicious, consider the expression, "keeping up with the Joneses."

Outside of edited material, whatever people do is "correct" - no-one is the arbiter of correct English.

So does that mean its proper to say "Ruins isa type of basic cards in Dark Ages. They are weak and undesirable Action cards costing 0 that are typically added to a player's deck as a penalty or attack" (as opposed to are)? I'm not sure what proper nouns have to do with it. If you have one virus and then it breeds you get viruses. "Jones" is singular, ("Jones isn't feeling well so you need to work late"), so if Jones has a family, you have a bunch of Joneses. If Ruinses is proper, then Ruins must be singular as well.

Yes, "Ruins is a type of card..." is a correct way to say it.  Just like "Victory is a type of card" or "Action is a type of card" would be correct.  HOWEVER, "Ruins are a type of card..." could also work, given you could be talking about different types of Ruins cards collectively.  At least, that's how I read it.

[Donald X.]

If Ruinses is proper, then Ruins must be singular as well.

Somehow I feel the need to explain this stuff even after saying how pointless that would be. That is what the internet does to a man.

In the sentence "Ruined Village is a Ruins," "Ruins" is singular. You can tell from the "a!" Note despite being a former computer programmer that I put the exclamation point inside the quotes. If you then wanted to say what Ruined Village and Abandoned Mine collectively are, that would be "Ruinses." As usual despite being pretty sure of this I used the internet to verify it before using the word in the preview. If you aren't reading this from a print-out then this power is available to you as well.

If you see the movie Holes, did you see two movies? When you say "I saw Holes," that's shorthand for "I saw the movie named Holes." It's one movie; Holes in this context is singular. The fact that the movie's name is also a plural English word doesn't change that. If the director made another movie very similar to Holes, and then a third, then you might say, "man, I wish he would stop making so many Holeses."

The entire point to me saying Ruinses in the first place, in the preview and wherever afterwards, was because, it's funny. It's funny that the plural is Ruinses, because no-one would actually say Ruinses, and they would sound like Gollum (a character created by a linguist) if they did. Death Cart doesn't say Ruinses, because it would look weird; we don't have someone forcing us to adhere to a particular style guide, although Jay decided to go light on contractions (I disagree there) and to say "he" for indeterminate gender (I prefer "they" like a normal person).

It has not been so common to pluralize proper nouns in the past, but it comes up a lot with card games with named cards. You have this name, it's some ordinary real thing, but it's a name, it's proper, and the style guides say your Magic deck has four City of Brasses and four Llanowar Elveses, not four Cities of Brass and four Llanowar Elves. Normal people say Cities and Elves and that may well be the wave of the future. If you see a newspaper article telling you how many times Madonna won a Grammy though, they will call them Grammys, not Grammies; once it's proper they just add -s or -es.

[eHalcyon]

Yes, "Ruins is a type of card..." is a correct way to say it.  Just like "Victory is a type of card" or "Action is a type of card" would be correct.  HOWEVER, "Ruins are a type of card..." could also work, given you could be talking about different types of Ruins cards collectively.  At least, that's how I read it.

"Ruins are a type of card" would be incorrect.  The "a" means that "Ruins" is singular in this case, so you need to use "is".

[aaron0013]

For formal writing, I prefer going light on contractions and saying "he" for "they". In my 6 odd years of grammar study, that is the way I have always been taught.
But then comes the question "is Dominion card language intended to be formal?" I think it has an element of that, but not completely strict on such areas as Ruinses. I like the way it ended up, Donald.

[ashersky]

Yes, "Ruins is a type of card..." is a correct way to say it.  Just like "Victory is a type of card" or "Action is a type of card" would be correct.  HOWEVER, "Ruins are a type of card..." could also work, given you could be talking about different types of Ruins cards collectively.  At least, that's how I read it.

"Ruins are a type of card" would be incorrect.  The "a" means that "Ruins" is singular in this case, so you need to use "is".

So "Mustangs are a type of Ford" is incorrect?  I disagree.  The "a" refers to "type" (the object).

[aaron0013]

Yes, "Ruins is a type of card..." is a correct way to say it.  Just like "Victory is a type of card" or "Action is a type of card" would be correct.  HOWEVER, "Ruins are a type of card..." could also work, given you could be talking about different types of Ruins cards collectively.  At least, that's how I read it.

"Ruins are a type of card" would be incorrect.  The "a" means that "Ruins" is singular in this case, so you need to use "is".

So "Mustangs are a type of Ford" is incorrect?  I disagree.  The "a" refers to "type" (the object).

Just say, "The Mustang is a type of Ford." Sometimes it is just better to change the sentence around. 

[PSGarak]

If you have one virus and then it breeds you get viruses.

Virus is a funny example, because it's a Latin word that we don't know the proper Latin plural for. It's a rare word that has some odd declension forms, so we're not sure if it's second or fourth declension, or just flat-out irregular. Theories for the proper plural include viri, virii, virui, virus, and virus (with a different-sounding u). Some people have advocated using various of these as the "proper" English plural as well, but since they're all historically suspect I recommend the English plural.

[Axxle]

One Fish.
Two Fish.
Red fish, blue fish
English is a crazy language.

[Drab Emordnilap]

One Fish.
Two Fish.
Red fish, blue fish
English is a crazy language.

Fishes is a thing.

Also, the plural of moose is meese, and box is boxen.

[cluckyb]

If Ruinses is proper, then Ruins must be singular as well.

Somehow I feel the need to explain this stuff even after saying how pointless that would be. That is what the internet does to a man.

In the sentence "Ruined Village is a Ruins," "Ruins" is singular. You can tell from the "a!" Note despite being a former computer programmer that I put the exclamation point inside the quotes. If you then wanted to say what Ruined Village and Abandoned Mine collectively are, that would be "Ruinses." As usual despite being pretty sure of this I used the internet to verify it before using the word in the preview. If you aren't reading this from a print-out then this power is available to you as well.

If you see the movie Holes, did you see two movies? When you say "I saw Holes," that's shorthand for "I saw the movie named Holes." It's one movie; Holes in this context is singular. The fact that the movie's name is also a plural English word doesn't change that. If the director made another movie very similar to Holes, and then a third, then you might say, "man, I wish he would stop making so many Holeses."

The entire point to me saying Ruinses in the first place, in the preview and wherever afterwards, was because, it's funny. It's funny that the plural is Ruinses, because no-one would actually say Ruinses, and they would sound like Gollum (a character created by a linguist) if they did. Death Cart doesn't say Ruinses, because it would look weird; we don't have someone forcing us to adhere to a particular style guide, although Jay decided to go light on contractions (I disagree there) and to say "he" for indeterminate gender (I prefer "they" like a normal person).

It has not been so common to pluralize proper nouns in the past, but it comes up a lot with card games with named cards. You have this name, it's some ordinary real thing, but it's a name, it's proper, and the style guides say your Magic deck has four City of Brasses and four Llanowar Elveses, not four Cities of Brass and four Llanowar Elves. Normal people say Cities and Elves and that may well be the wave of the future. If you see a newspaper article telling you how many times Madonna won a Grammy though, they will call them Grammys, not Grammies; once it's proper they just add -s or -es.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to state that "Ruins" shouldn't be singular. Just pointing out that the -es is added because its singular. All being proper does is help standardize the pluralization so we know its "Ruinses" and not something weird like "Ruini".

One last moment of pedantry and then I'll stop annoying you. Using the Grammy example, it would be correct to say that the game has 12 Dutchys, right?

If you have one virus and then it breeds you get viruses.

Virus is a funny example, because it's a Latin word that we don't know the proper Latin plural for. It's a rare word that has some odd declension forms, so we're not sure if it's second or fourth declension, or just flat-out irregular. Theories for the proper plural include viri, virii, virui, virus, and virus (with a different-sounding u). Some people have advocated using various of these as the "proper" English plural as well, but since they're all historically suspect I recommend the English plural.

Its not just virus though. John considered the pluses and minuses of putting lenses in his glasses. Yeah there are examples of -s words not getting the -es (fungi) but the -es is probably the most common.

[Donald X.]

One last moment of pedantry and then I'll stop annoying you. Using the Grammy example, it would be correct to say that the game has 12 Dutchys, right?

No, the game doesn't have any cards at all called Dutchy.

[cluckyb]

One last moment of pedantry and then I'll stop annoying you. Using the Grammy example, it would be correct to say that the game has 12 Dutchys, right?

No, the game doesn't have any cards at all called Dutchy.

... not sure how I never realized there wasn't a t. Still see them referred to as Duchies more often than Duchys and wasn't sure if that's because people use the 'wrong' name, because cards themselves aren't proper, or because your Grammys example was silly and not actually relevant. 

[Donald X.]

... not sure how I never realized there wasn't a t. Still see them referred to as Duchies more often than Duchys and wasn't sure if that's because people use the 'wrong' name, because cards themselves aren't proper, or because your Grammys example was silly and not actually relevant. 

It's fine if you want to say that Grammys as an example wasn't relevant to you personally. It seemed to me like it might help someone out there come to terms with the rules for pluralizing proper nouns, but man it's the internet, maybe I am just screaming at the void here.

[werothegreat]

I would argue that some proper nouns are more Proper than others.  For example, "Grammy" as a word is pretty much set in stone - you can't say "Grammies," because Grammy is short for Grammy Award.  Grammy is an adjective acting as a noun.  Synecdoche!  Whereas with City of Brass, "City" is, on its own, an improper noun with a known plural.  So Cities of Brass would be correct, until such a time as "City of Brass" just gets turned into one word, like, City'obrass or something.  Then you could say City'obrasses.

Also, the Internet wanted to correct "synecdoche" to "Indochinese."

[cluckyb]

... not sure how I never realized there wasn't a t. Still see them referred to as Duchies more often than Duchys and wasn't sure if that's because people use the 'wrong' name, because cards themselves aren't proper, or because your Grammys example was silly and not actually relevant. 

It's fine if you want to say that Grammys as an example wasn't relevant to you personally. It seemed to me like it might help someone out there come to terms with the rules for pluralizing proper nouns, but man it's the internet, maybe I am just screaming at the void here.

I understand the rules for pluralizing proper nouns. The question I'm sure on is what kind of noun the card names are. The impression I get is that all the card names are technically singular proper nouns. In that case (by your Grammys example) Duchys, Laboratorys, and Embassys are all correct (in the same sense that "Ratses" is correct) unless there is another aspect I'm missing. (please don't give another snarky response. or do, I don't actually really care. I'm just done trying to get this point across)

[eHalcyon]

Yes, "Ruins is a type of card..." is a correct way to say it.  Just like "Victory is a type of card" or "Action is a type of card" would be correct.  HOWEVER, "Ruins are a type of card..." could also work, given you could be talking about different types of Ruins cards collectively.  At least, that's how I read it.

"Ruins are a type of card" would be incorrect.  The "a" means that "Ruins" is singular in this case, so you need to use "is".

So "Mustangs are a type of Ford" is incorrect?  I disagree.  The "a" refers to "type" (the object).

Sure, but the "a" refers to "Mustangs" as well.  So your sentence is incorrect, yup.

Consider:

They are a friend of mine.

By your argument, this sentence is correct.

[Donald X.]

They are a friend of mine.

By your argument, this sentence is correct.

The Chicago Manual of Style briefly allowed singular they, but relented, though it's been in use for hundreds of years.

Anyway for a normal English speaker, that sentence is fine. It's not "they *is* a friend of mine." "They" can mean a single person of unknown gender.

[eHalcyon]

They are a friend of mine.

By your argument, this sentence is correct.

The Chicago Manual of Style briefly allowed singular they, but relented, though it's been in use for hundreds of years.

Anyway for a normal English speaker, that sentence is fine. It's not "they *is* a friend of mine." "They" can mean a single person of unknown gender.

Yes I know, but I mean "They" to be plural for this example.



I am feeling less sure now than before, trying to think of other examples.  I mean, a sentence like "bears are a type of mammal" sounds entirely correct, but I am arguing that it isn't.

I think I am indeed mixing something up.  Ehhhh.

[heron]

What you're mixing up, eHalcyon, is that in "They are a friend of mine" there is more than one friend. However, in "Bears are a type of mammal" only one type (of mammal) is mentioned.
Therefore, if we consider they to be plural, it would be proper to say "They are friends of mine."
However, "Bears are types of mammals" is incorrect, because bears only represent a single type of mammal.

[ashersky]

What you're mixing up, eHalcyon, is that in "They are a friend of mine" there is more than one friend. However, in "Bears are a type of mammal" only one type (of mammal) is mentioned.
Therefore, if we consider they to be plural, it would be proper to say "They are friends of mine."
However, "Bears are types of mammals" is incorrect, because bears only represent a single type of mammal.

This is my point with Mustangs.  I think the thread got lost here, because it rounded back to me being correct, which I like.

I think my argument is you could say "Bears IS a type of animal" because "bears" is being used as a collective singular instead of plural in that instance.  I would agree it doesn't sound great, and we would say that normally, it is grammatically correct in someone's dissertation on ursine studies somewhere.

[werothegreat]

They are a friend of mine.

By your argument, this sentence is correct.

The Chicago Manual of Style briefly allowed singular they, but relented, though it's been in use for hundreds of years.

Anyway for a normal English speaker, that sentence is fine. It's not "they *is* a friend of mine." "They" can mean a single person of unknown gender.

Yes I know, but I mean "They" to be plural for this example.



I am feeling less sure now than before, trying to think of other examples.  I mean, a sentence like "bears are a type of mammal" sounds entirely correct, but I am arguing that it isn't.

I think I am indeed mixing something up.  Ehhhh.

And this is why the French have the pronoun "on."