Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]  All

Author Topic: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?  (Read 15144 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jimmmmm

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1762
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jimmmmm
  • Respect: +2019
    • View Profile
Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2011, 02:32:07 am »
0

What you should do is find someone in real life, and challenge them to a game where you choose the kingdom, and they can only buy Chancellor, treasure and victory cards, but can choose the order of both decks every time either is shuffled, and see if you can beat them.
Logged

rogerclee

  • Steward
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2011, 04:09:00 pm »
0

I just want to say I thought this was a really inventive and clever puzzle, well done.
Logged

gamesou

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 291
  • Respect: +337
    • View Profile
Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2011, 03:59:48 pm »
0

I just want to say I thought this was a really inventive and clever puzzle, well done.

Thanks for the feedback !
Now I wonder how these strategies work in real games ... certainly this would lead to strange situations.
Logged
Designer of Chronos Conquest

Razzishi

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 216
  • Shuffle iT Username: Eye Urn
  • Respect: +121
    • View Profile
Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2011, 05:17:32 pm »
0

In a real game, your opponent buys Militia and the plan doesn't work at all.  But if you see this board and for some reason the opponent doesn't buy Militia, you're all set.
Logged
Stop reading my signature.

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1758
    • View Profile
Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2011, 05:49:13 pm »
0

If this (entire) board was out, and your opponent was not going for the same thing, I don't really think him buying a Militia is going to slow you down that much.  The absolute worst possible luck has the combo set up in 11 turns, which is already fast.  Normal luck sets it up much faster, and getting hit by Militia a few times will only slow it a little.  You would still set up the pin long before your opponent could finish the game.

Once it is set up, it is impervious to Militia.  You only have 4 cards in the combo, and one of them is Village, which also happens to be the first card you play in the combo.  Discard one, then when your turn starts, you just play the Village and draw it back.

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2011, 07:49:02 pm »
0

The chancellor certainly is lucky. I've found a few kingdoms where you can beat the chancellor purely on vp (even on worst draws) but the chancellor would make it make it 11 cards in the kingdom. I'll keep looking :) .
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4384
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2011, 08:13:27 pm »
0

DG, could you post those? I'm pretty shocked by that if it's really true without any (or even much) interference and on worst draws.

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2011, 08:32:12 pm »
0

I'll do it tomorrow. I think I've got it within a 10 card kingdom restriction using goons (as this delays the chancellor one turn) but it'll take a while to write it out in a verifiable form.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2011, 09:09:42 am »
+1

Here we go then.

#1 - buy ironworks
#2 - buy chapel
#3 - buy ironworks
#4 - buy cellar

At this point we have have the worst draws, all copper and estates, but we're not dependent upon 5/2 or 4/3 splits. On turn 5 there's a different continuation if you immediately draw the cellar. You get to cycle the cards and use the ironworks more often but only trash 3 cards on turn 5. The worst draws puzzle is pretty bad to prove since I should really exhaust all possible draws and exhaust everyone's patience.

#5 - ironworks, chapel, copper, copper, copper: ironworks gains great hall draws copper, chapel trashes 4 copper
#6 - 3 estate, 2 copper - do nothing
#7 - cellar, ironworks, chapel, copper, copper : ironworks gains great hall draws copper, chapel trashes 3 copper

On turn 7 the cellar will always find the chapel if it is not originally in hand, so having it hand becomes the worse draw since we don't play extra ironworks. After turn 8 we have a deck where we can play out all the non-terminal actions and leave the remaining cards as a five card hand. The original 5 cards drawn are then not relevant. I'm ignoring the play of the self-replacing cards for brevity.

#8 - ironworks gains great hall draws estate, chapel trashes 3 estates and cellar; ironworks left on deck.
deck consists of 2 ironworks, 3 great halls, chapel.

#9 - play out cards to leave ironworks, ironworks, chapel, great hall, great hall in hand; ironworks gains worker's village; play great hall draw worker's village; ironworks gains ironworks; play worker's village draw ironworks;ironworks gains remodel; play great hall draw remodel; remodel chapel to worker's village.
deck consists of 3 ironworks, 3 great halls, 2 worker's village, remodel

#10 - play out cards to leave ironworks, ironworks, ironworks, remodel, great hall (or village); play ironworks gain worker's village; play ironworks gain worker's village; play great hall and draw worker's village; play that to draw the worker's village; remodel ironworks to goons; play worker's village draw goons; play goons; buy 4 peddlers (4vp tokens)
deck consists of 2 ironworks, 3 great halls, 4 worker's villages, remodel, goons, 4 peddlers

#11 - play out cards (using both ironworks for great halls) to leave great hall, remodel, goons, worker's village, great hall; remodel worker's village to goons; draw goons with great hall; play both goons; buy 5 peddlers and worker's village (12vp tokens),
deck consists of 2 ironworks, 5 great halls, 4 worker's villages, remodel, 2 goons, 9 peddlers.

#12 - play out cards (using both ironworks for great halls) to leave remodel, goons, goons, great hall, peddler; remodel the peddler to a province and play both goons; buy peddler and 6 estates (14 vp tokens)

Deck contains province, 7 great halls, 6 estates, 4 worker's villages, 2 ironworks, remodel, 2 goons, 9 peddlers.
Trash contains 7 copper, 3 estates, chapel, cellar, ironworks, worker's village, peddler.

vp = 30 in chips plus 19 in cards = 49

After 11 turns the lucky chancellor has bought chancellor, silver, gold, province, province, province, province, province, province, gold, province for 45 vp.

Kingdom consists of chapel, cellar, great hall, chancellor, remodel, ironworks, worker's village, goons, peddler, any last card

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a small problem somewhere in the solution since it is quite complicated, lots of cards, and the worst draws stipulation is very punitive. There is however a lot of leeway in the final few turns of the solution and you can certainly gain more points by working a bit harder with a chosen 10th kingdom card. From turn 8 there are also a lot of possible solutions opening up since you can buy an early peddler and remodel it into almost any card of your choosing (king's court, expand, etc). Ignoring the remodel and using islands and vineyards could be tempting too since you can gain a truly massive number of action cards.
Logged

mconst

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1
  • Respect: +26
    • View Profile
Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2011, 07:14:57 pm »
+26

It is indeed possible to beat the Lucky Chancellor even if he goes first.  Here's a proof.

This works even against a smart Lucky Chancellor who doesn't follow the strict "Big Money" algorithm -- instead, we'll say he buys a Chancellor on his first turn and then can buy whatever basic cards he wants.  (This change makes the Lucky Chancellor significantly stronger.  He can now buy Copper to recover after we trash his deck, and he can buy out Duchies, Estates, and Curses to end the game before we're finished trashing his deck.)

The ten kingdom cards are Chancellor, Chapel, Ironworks, Great Hall, Worker's Village, Pawn, Peddler, Militia, King's Court, and Masquerade.

Open Chapel/Ironworks.  This is always possible, regardless of which split we get.  Our goal is now to Chapel away eight of our ten starting cards, and acquire a Worker's Village and a Pawn.

For now, whenever we draw the Ironworks, we'll use it to gain a Great Hall.  This means the Ironworks is a self-replacing card for now (i.e. it gives +1 Card and +1 Action), and of course the Great Halls are always self-replacing.  We stop using the Ironworks for Great Halls after turn 9, so we don't have to worry about running out of them.  Similarly, the Worker's Village (once we pick that up) is self-replacing, and we'll use the Pawn for a card and an action to make it self-replacing too.

We aren't using the self-replacing cards for anything useful yet, so it doesn't matter when we draw them.  Whenever we get one, we play it, and then it's as if the self-replacing card wasn't even there.  In other words, our deck behaves exactly like a deck of just a Chapel and ten starting cards.  This makes it easy to analyze!

We must draw the Chapel some time between turns 3 and 5.  There are two possibilities:

CASE 1: CHAPEL ON TURN 5.
      Since we don't draw the Chapel on turns 3 or 4, those turns (once we've played any self-replacing cards) will consist entirely of starting cards.  We'll therefore have either the $3/$4 split or the $2/$5 split; either way, we can buy a Worker's Village and a Pawn.

On turn 5, we finally draw the Chapel with four starting cards.  Trash them all.  Sadly, our Chapel missed the shuffle, so we don't draw it on turn 6, but it must show up again on turn 7 or 8.  When that happens, trash another four starting cards.

CASE 2: CHAPEL BEFORE TURN 5.
      Since we draw the Chapel on turn 3 or 4, one of those turns (after we've played any self-replacing cards) must be the Chapel and four starting cards, and the other must be just five starting cards.  On the Chapel turn, trash all four cards; on the other turn, we must have at least $2, so buy a Pawn.

The Chapel does get shuffled in this time, so we'll draw it again on turn 5 or 6, and we can trash another four cards.

Now that we've trashed eight starting cards, we're going to start using the Ironworks to gain things other than Great Halls, so the Ironworks is no longer a self-replacing card.  Even so, our deck only has four non-self-replacing cards (Chapel, Ironworks, and two starting cards), so we're guaranteed to draw our whole deck each turn.  Therefore, on the next turn, we play all the self-replacing cards and Ironworks a Worker's Village.

Either way, by turn 8, we've managed to trash eight starting cards and gain a Worker's Village and a Pawn.  Our plan is now to use King's Court/Masquerade to trash the Lucky Chancellor's deck while we buy up all the Worker's Villages, Peddlers, and Great Halls to end the game.  However, we have to be careful not to empty any piles before the last turn, because otherwise the Lucky Chancellor could end the game before we're finished trashing his deck.

As above, we're now using the Ironworks for things other than Great Halls, so it's no longer a self-replacing card.  Similarly, we'll sometimes use the Pawn for things other than a card and an action.  As long as we only have four non-self-replacing cards each turn, though, we can always draw our entire deck -- to make this easy to track, I'll put each turn's non-self-replacing cards in bold.

Turn 9: Our deck is Ironworks, Chapel, two starting cards, Worker's Village, Pawn, and some number of Great Halls.

Play all the self-replacing cards except the very last one, so our hand consists of Ironworks, Chapel, two starting cards, and a self-replacing card.  Our deck and discard are empty.  Ironworks a Pawn, which becomes the only card in our discard, then play the remaining self-replacing card to draw it.  We've now played all our self-replacing cards, so we have +2 Actions and +1 Buy from the Worker's Village; play the Pawn for a buy and anything, and Chapel the last two starting cards.  We have at least four action cards in play (Worker's Village, Ironworks, and two Pawns), so Peddlers are free.  Buy three of them.

Turn 10: Our deck is Ironworks, Chapel, two Pawns, Worker's Village, three Peddlers, and some number of Great Halls.

As before, play all the self-replacing cards except the last one, then Ironworks a Militia and play the last self-replacing card to draw it.  We now have +$3 from the Peddlers, as well as +2 Actions and +1 Buy from the Worker's Village.  Play one Pawn for an action and a coin, and the other for a buy and a coin.  Play the Militia.  That's a total of $7; buy a King's Court and two more Peddlers.

If we hadn't played the Militia, the Lucky Chancellor would now buy the last Province.  (Remember, he went first!)  With only three cards in hand, though, he can't do it -- if he has seven Provinces already, then he only has one Gold, so his hand is worth at most $7.  If he has more Gold and fewer Provinces, he can buy another Province this turn, but it isn't the last one.  Either way, he can't end the game this turn.

Also, he's played 11 turns so far, so he has at most 21 cards in his deck.  This will become relevant soon.

Turn 11: Our deck is Ironworks, Chapel, Militia, King's Court, Worker's Village, two Pawns, five Peddlers, and some number of Great Halls.

As before, play all the self-replacing cards except the last one, then Ironworks a Masquerade and play the last self-replacing card to draw it.  We have +2 Actions from the Worker's Village, so Chapel the Militia (!) and King's Court the Masquerade.  We draw nothing and have nothing to pass; trash the three cards we receive from the Lucky Chancellor, so he's left with at most 18 cards in his deck.  Buy two more Peddlers.

The Lucky Chancellor now has only two cards in hand.  He'll never have more than that for the rest of the game, so no matter how much Gold he has he'll never buy another Province.  (Fortunately, we're not playing with Platinum!)  He can try to end the game on piles, but we haven't bought any basic cards or emptied any piles ourselves, so the quickest he can do it is turn 27 (by opening Chancellor/Estate and buying out Duchies, Estates, and Curses).  We'll clean out his entire deck before then.

Turn 12: Our deck is Ironworks, Chapel, King's Court, Masquerade, Worker's Village, two Pawns, seven Peddlers, and some number of Great Halls.

Now we're set.  For the next nine turns, we're going to play all our self-replacing cards but one, Ironworks a Worker's Village, play the last self-replacing card to draw it, and play it; then we play the Chapel, trashing nothing, and King's Court the Masquerade to trash three of the Lucky Chancellor's cards.  He's buying at most one card per turn, so by turn 20 we will have trashed his entire deck.  We have plenty of buys from the Worker's Villages and plenty of coins from the Peddlers, so it's no problem to buy all but one of the Peddlers and Great Halls by turn 19; on turn 20, after we've Ironworksed the last Worker's Village and trashed the last of the Lucky Chancellor's cards, we buy the last Peddler and Great Hall to end the game.
Logged

pst

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
  • Respect: +906
    • View Profile
Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2011, 06:30:44 am »
0

Best first post ever!
Logged

gamesou

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 291
  • Respect: +337
    • View Profile
Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2011, 10:59:41 am »
+1

Very nice solution mconst ! I thought a bit about the problem and couldn't solve it, your solution has some nice subtleties ... and you explain it very well, it's a pleasure to read.

I learnt something useful from this puzzle: the Chapel/Ironworks opening is very strong if there is some way to set a combo using cheap cards. If both are available that's something to check.

Best first post ever!

Does my OP qualifies for the second best first post ever ?   ;)

--
Guillaume

Self-promotion: my first boardgame, Witty Chronos, has just been published ! :)
Logged
Designer of Chronos Conquest

pst

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
  • Respect: +906
    • View Profile
Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2011, 05:10:19 pm »
0

Best first post ever!

Does my OP qualifies for the second best first post ever ?   ;)

Oops, didn't realize that was also a first post, as it was already here when I started reading here. (Yes, And I'm very new here, so obviously I shouldn't make any "ever" statements.) I should have added [no actual comparison intended] in small print.  :)) Just kudos to everyone with a solution to this very nice problem.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  All
 

Page created in 0.087 seconds with 21 queries.