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Author Topic: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?  (Read 15143 times)

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gamesou

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Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« on: August 11, 2011, 04:20:43 pm »
+7

Hello everybody,

Here is a puzzle that I hope challenging and fun (I also hope my solution is correct ...)

You play a 2-player Dominion game against an opponent that chooses to go for a Chancellor Big Money strategy. He opens Chancellor/Silver and then buys Province if he can, otherwise Gold, otherwise Silver, otherwise nothing. He always uses the Chancellor ability.

If he is very very very very lucky (or an illusionist), this strategy is powerful. However it's not unbeatable !!!!

The puzzle is to find a Kingdom set (including Chancellor) and a strategy that always wins. No matter how lucky is your opponent, and how unlucky you are, you win.

Ah, something important: you start.

Enjoy !

--
Guillaume
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 05:43:18 am by gamesou »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2011, 04:28:16 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure that with perfect luck for him and against you, it's impossible. I mean, he's going to open chancellor/silver, buy a gold on turn 3, and then buy a province every turn from then on. The best you can do is delay him one single turn by somehow reducing his handsize. You can also pump him full of all 10 curses, but a) you need to be quite lucky to do that this fast, and b) it doesn't really matter, as he's miles ahead of you. I mean, at worst he'll have every province at the end of turn 11. Beating that is just not happening, at least with worst-case luck.

gamesou

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2011, 04:34:52 pm »
0

I agree that it LOOKS impossible. Indeed he will buy the last province on turn 11 (or 12 if you reduced his hand once). So you have to stop him before.
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play2draw

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2011, 04:35:16 pm »
0

Well, Chancellor/BM, with the best of luck, will end as such:

1: Chancellor
2: Silver
3: Gold
4: Province (Ch/S/G/C/C)
5: Province
...
11: Province

Curses will do nothing except lower the VP count (as with perfect luck, they will never be drawn in hand), and handsize-reduction will only delay one or two turns, taking extra time to buy either gold or silver depending on when you use, say, militia.

Can you get Goons/King'sCourt/Masquerade set up before turn 11? ;D

Now that I think about it, if you can get your deck down to just WorkersVillage/WorkersVillage/Monument/Militia/Masquerade/Curse, the most he'll ever be able to buy are Dutchies (assuming he never gives you the Chancellor). Just keep playing the Monuments and buy a curse every turn until you have enough VP to overtake 8 provinces.

Probably you can open Ironworks/Chapel, Chapel all coins/cash, and use the Ironworks to get the necessary cards, and "Island" away the Chapel at the end... but can this be done quickly enough?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 05:31:31 pm by play2draw »
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HockeyHippo

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2011, 05:22:49 pm »
+1

EDIT:

Just re-read the OP
Quote
No matter how lucky is your opponent, and how unlucky you are, you win.

Well that rules out my solution because I used perfect shuffling. Sigh

I believe you can get it set up, with perfect shuffling. Check my solution though please.

Turn 1: C/C/C/C/E -> Buy Quarry       
Turn 2: C/C/C/E/E -> Buy Chapel   Deck: (7xCopper, 3 Estates, 1Q, 1Ch)
Reshuffle
Turn 3: C/C/C/C/Q -> Buy KC
Turn 4: E/E/E/C/Ch -> Chapel 3xEstate, 1xCopper     Deck:(2xC) Discard:(KC/Chapel/Q/4xCopper)
Turn5: C/C/(reshuffle)C/Ch/KC -> Chapel 3x Copper      Deck: (C/C/C/Q) Discard:(KC/Chapel)
Turn 6: C/C/C/Q/(reshuffle)Ch -> Buy Goons  Deck: (KC) Discard: (C/C/C/Q/Ch/Goons)
Turn 7: KC(reshuffle)/Goons/Q/Copper/Copper: KC-Goons +3 from Q +2C = 9$ Buy KC + Masq Deck: (Chapel/Copper) Discard: (KC/Goons/Q/2xC/KC/Masq)
Turn 8: Chapel/Copper/KC/KC/Masq: KC->KC->Masqx3(picking up deck)->Goonsx3 Give Chapel/Copper/Copper Trash incoming cards and Buy Monument
Deck:() Discard: (KC/KC/Goons/Monument/Masq/C/Q)
Turn 9: KC/KC/Goons/Monument/Masq Picking up and passing C/Q Trash incoming cards
Turn 10: Implement KC/KC/Goons/Monument/Masq strategy and trash opponent's deck. Once they have nothing left buy remaining provinces to win the game.

I think that works, but I definitely need to check it over. 1 pair of eyes is not enough!




« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 05:25:46 pm by HockeyHippo »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2011, 05:31:31 pm »
0

Well of course you can beat it with perfect shuffling. You can get all the colonies by the end of your 5th turn with perfect shuffling.

guided

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2011, 05:33:46 pm »
+1

"No matter how bad your luck is" is a nasty constraint. You could bury your 2 opening cards at turn 5, which effectively means you don't start your game until your opponent has a guaranteed province every turn. And then every time you buy a key card (at least until you get an engine running) it could miss a shuffle.

I'm not aware of any pin (like KC/Masquerade) with 100% chance of success (given no interference from attacks) by turn 11. If you've found one I'm interested to see it.

There are probably various KC-based approaches that are likely to succeed, but none I can think of off the top of my head that are guaranteed to succeed.
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A_S00

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2011, 05:35:24 pm »
0

Does his "perfect shuffle luck" mean he always draws Chancellor along with his biggest treasures, regardless of circumstance, or does it mean he draws whatever would be worst for you given whatever strategy you're pursuing?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2011, 05:37:04 pm »
0

Does his "perfect shuffle luck" mean he always draws Chancellor along with his biggest treasures, regardless of circumstance, or does it mean he draws whatever would be worst for you given whatever strategy you're pursuing?
I'm assuming perfect means perfect, which means whatever is worst for you/gives him the best chance of winning.

guided

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2011, 05:39:21 pm »
0

"no matter how lucky" is pretty clear (unless that isn't actually what he meant?): No matter what you do, your opponent will always have the best possible hand when it becomes their (un-Possessed) turn.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2011, 05:59:56 pm »
0

I think the solution would have to be pretty simple, because anything that buys a reasonable amount of cards, it is going to be exceedingly difficult to determine what the "worst possible luck" is. 

It appears it is too slow, but I was curious what the maximum number of turns is that it could take to reduce your deck to Chapel, Treasure Map, Treasure Map.  If it can be done quickly enough, you would then have Chapel + 4 Golds.  This deck could then buy Two King's Courts, a Goons and a Masquerade in 4 turns, and probably activate the combo pretty shortly there after.  Unfortunately, it would then take a couple more turns before the pin even really succeeds since you will be passing the Chancellor Golds.

Now... possibly a more likely solution could be.  How many turns does it take to get down to a deck of: Village, Village, Militia, Monument, Masquerade.  This would knock your opponent down to 2 cards every turn which prevents them from buying Provinces, and will destroy one of their cards each turn.  It can be done without the Monument as long as the Chancellor player is not allowed to buy anything other than Silver, Gold and Province.

As I stated above, it is extremely complicated to determine worst case shuffle order for a Chapel strategy trying to get those cards and trash everything.

gamesou

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2011, 06:07:35 pm »
0

"no matter how lucky" is pretty clear (unless that isn't actually what he meant?): No matter what you do, your opponent will always have the best possible hand when it becomes their (un-Possessed) turn.

Yes, that's what I mean. Except for a few exceptions (minion, possession, ... ), the best for the oppenent is to draw Chancellor+4 highest treasures.

The probability of success of your strategy should be 100%.

Actually it's already not easy to find a strategy that has a reasonable probability of success against the Lucky Chancellor. You can try using the cards, it's fun since you don't have to handle the opponent's shuffles. If you succeed in defeating the Lucky Chancellor, I guess you will have essentially found the strategy (I would be surprised if there was another solution), and then there are a few tricks to ensure the 100%.
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DG

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 06:50:50 pm »
0

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some way to get a big vineyards score using a selection from chapel, ironworks, great halls, islands, hamlets, havens, scrying pools, university, throne, vineyards etc that became bulletproof to bad draws. There would be no need to attack the chancellor, just amass a lot of non terminal actions and a few vineyards.
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play2draw

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2011, 08:56:25 pm »
+1

Now... possibly a more likely solution could be.  How many turns does it take to get down to a deck of: Village, Village, Militia, Monument, Masquerade.  This would knock your opponent down to 2 cards every turn which prevents them from buying Provinces, and will destroy one of their cards each turn.  It can be done without the Monument as long as the Chancellor player is not allowed to buy anything other than Silver, Gold and Province.

Well, I was able to get my method up by about turns 9 through 11 (where you use an Ironworks to draw all the necessary cards, trash the Ironworks with Chapel, and Island the Chapel away) It seems possible that the worst possible luck might be too slow, but it's fairly reliably set-up (ignoring the whole "island the chapel" is unnecessary, since I could have just passed the chapel and trashed whatever the opponent sent me).

If you have the chance to open 5/2, you can probably mess around with mint/secret chamber, get a remake, and acquire the villages and masquerade by trashing the estates.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 09:06:22 pm by play2draw »
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Deadlock39

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2011, 10:29:15 pm »
0

I didn't think about using Ironworks and that eliminates the biggest issue I found which was figuring out how to get the cards you need with the worst luck possible.  (and even figure out what "worst luck" is.)

Can we get clarification on whether the Chancellor player can buy Duchies and or other cards to 3 pile the game, or if he will only buy Gold, Silver and Province?  I guess you did say Big Money, so I assume that excludes any kingdom cards, but if he can drain Duchy, Estate, and Gold, using the pin and only trashing one card a turn won't be good enough because he can 3 pile the game with all his VP intact.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 12:42:44 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Tahtweasel

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2011, 10:46:09 pm »
0

Do you get to choose whether you start 5-2 or 4-3?
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Tahtweasel

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2011, 10:55:51 pm »
0

A possible set people haven't tried yet: Chapel, Goons, Wharf, Village, Bridge, Iron Works, Nobles, Watchtower, King's Court, Chancellor. You need 52 points, which will mostly come from copper, purchased and trashed through watchtower. You have to reliably draw your whole deck, otherwise bad things can happen.
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gamesou

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2011, 12:41:33 am »
0

Do you get to choose whether you start 5-2 or 4-3?
No. Your strategy should work 100% of the time.

Can we get clarification on whether the Chancellor player can buy Duchies and or other cards to 3 pile the game, or if he will only buy Gold, Silver and Province? 
For simplicity, I asked the question when the Lucky Chancellor applies the most basic Big Money strategy (see my OP). However I guess it can be adapted to work 100% of the time against any Big Money strategy (i.e. any strategy that buys only Victory and Treasure cards, besides the initial Chancellor), though I didn't doublecheck.

Well, I was able to get my method up by about turns 9 through 11 (where you use an Ironworks to draw all the necessary cards, trash the Ironworks with Chapel, and Island the Chapel away) It seems possible that the worst possible luck might be too slow, but it's fairly reliably set-up (ignoring the whole "island the chapel" is unnecessary, since I could have just passed the chapel and trashed whatever the opponent sent me).
This goes in the correct direction ! However it is too slow to achieve a 100% success (check the case when Estates and Coppers are on the top at every reshuffle).
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Deadlock39

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2011, 12:45:40 am »
+4

Okay, I think I beat the Lucky Chancellor, but others will need to check the "worst luck possible" on my end of the scenario.

This is going to be a little long, just to be thorough.


Turn 1 and 2:
You open: Ironworks, Chapel (available for either start)
Lucky Chancellor opens Silver, Chancellor

I am pretty sure, the worst possible luck delays the Chapel and Ironworks both to hand 5 so the conflict and miss the shuffle.

Turns 3 and 4:
You do nothing
Lucky Chancellor buys a Gold, and then a Province(1)

Turn 5:
You draw Ironworks, Chapel, and 3 starting cards (Coppers and Estates are the same because we will never use the Coppers to buy)
You Ironworks for a Great Hall, Gaining an Action and Drawing a card.
You Chapel 4 starting cards.
Your draw pile Contains 6 starting Cards.
Your discard Contains Ironworks, Chapel, and Great Hall
The Lucky Chancellor Buys a Province(2)

Turn 6:
You Draw 5 starting cards and do nothing
Your draw pile contains 1 starting card.
Your discard contains Ironworks, Chapel, Great Hall, and 5 starting cards
The Lucky Chancellor Buys a Province(3)

Turn 7:
You draw 1 starting card, Reshuffle and then draw 4 more.
You do nothing.
Your draw pile contains Ironworks, Chapel, Great Hall, and 1 starting card.
Your discard contains 5 starting cards
The Lucky Chancellor Buys a Province(4)

Turn 8:
You draw Ironworks, Chapel, Great Hall, and 1 starting card.  You Reshuffle and draw another starting card.
You play Great Hall and draw a starting card.
You play Ironworks and gain a Great Hall, Drawing another starting card
You Chapel 4 starting Cards
Your draw contains 2 starting cards.
Your discard contains Ironworks, Chapel, and 2 Great Halls.
The Lucky Chancellor buys a Province(5)

Turn 9:
You draw 2 starting cards.  You reshuffle and draw 2 Great halls and an Ironworks.
You play a Great Hall, Drawing your Chapel.
You Ironworks and gain a Throne Room.
You Chapel 2 starting cards and a Great Hall.
Your draw pile is empty.
Your discard contains Ironworks, Chapel, Throne Room, and Great Hall
The Lucky Chancellor Buys a Province(6)

Turn 10:
You reshuffle and Draw Ironworks, Chapel, Throne Rome, and Great Hall.
You Throne Room Ironworks, and gain a Village and a Militia.
You Chapel a Great Hall.
Your draw pile is empty
Your discard contains Ironworks, Chapel, Throne Room, Village, and Militia
The Lucky Chancellor buys a Province(7)

Turn 11:
You reshuffle and draw Ironworks, Chapel, Throne Room, Village, and Militia.
You Throne Room Ironworks.
You gain an Island and Draw it.
You gain a Masquerade.
You play Village and Draw Masquerade.
You play Island and set aside your Chapel.
You play Militia and the Lucky Chancellor Discards 2 Coppers.
You play Masquerade.
You receive a Copper from the Lucky Chancellor and trash it. (Yeah, that lucky bastard drew 3 this turn and protected his Silver).
Your draw pile is empty.
Your discard contains Ironworks, Throne Room, Village, Militia, and Masquerade.
The (un)Lucky Chancellor only has his Chancellor and Gold left this hand, so he buys a Silver.

Turn 12:
You reshuffle and draw Ironworks, Throne Room, Village, Militia, and Masquerade.
You play Village.
You play Militia and the (un)Lucky Chancellor discards 2 Coppers.
You play Throne Room and...
You play Masquerade and pass your Ironworks to the Lucky Chancellor.
You receive a Copper from the (un)Lucky Chancellor and trash it.
You play Masquerade again.
You get your Ironworks back from the (un)Lucky Chancellor and trash it.
Your draw pile is empty.
Your discard contains Throne Room, Village, Militia, and Masquerade.
The (un)Lucky Chancellor again only has his Chancellor and his Gold left and buys a Silver.

Turn 13-??
You reshuffle and draw Throne Room, Village, Militia, and Masquerade.
Every turn you play Village, Militia, Throne Room->Masquerade, trashing 2 of the (un)Lucky Chancellor's cards, and leaving him with only one card in his hand.
The (un)Lucky Chancellor can buy only one card a turn, but he is losing two, so eventually you will trash his entire deck.
The best he can do is have is Gold remaining in hand one hand, and his Chancellor in hand the next.  He can buy Silvers and Estates, and Copper, but soon he will have no cards and nothing he can do.  He might be able to run out the Estates and Copper, but he can do no harm, and cannot end the game.

Once you have destroyed the (un)Lucky Chancellor's entire Deck, you can do the following:
Throne Room->Militia, buy a Silver.
Throne Room->Militia, play Silver, Buy a Gold (or a Silver).
Play Village if you drew it (you have 6 cards), Throne Room->Militia, play Silver and Gold, buy the final Province and WIN!

The Kingdom contains:
Chancellor
Chapel
Ironworks
Great Hall
Throne Room
Village
Militia
Island
Masquerade
and one free spot...

The Free spot could be used for a Monument which could be grabbed once the Chancellors deck is gone, and you can continue the pin while generating infinite VP.

michaeljb

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2011, 01:35:32 am »
0

Looks good, just tested it on Isotropic and with that shuffling, I got to your turn 13 on turn 9.

Of course, in this case when you go and buy that Province it won't be the last one, since you'll be able to stop him before he gets to 7, though I suppose you could decide to just wait until the right time.

edit: link
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 01:37:57 am by michaeljb »
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A_S00

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2011, 02:12:45 am »
0

This goes in the correct direction ! However it is too slow to achieve a 100% success (check the case when Estates and Coppers are on the top at every reshuffle).
I'm not done testing it yet, but I'm pretty sure that play2draw's solution only needs Great Hall added to it and it works, even with the worst possible shuffle luck.

*edit* Yep.  I'm pretty sure the following is the worst possible shuffle luck (note the delay of both opening buys until turn 5, followed by every shuffle putting as many terminals into the hand as possible):

1 - 4c1e - buy IW
2 - 3c2e - buy Chapel

(reshuffle)

3 - 3e2c - do nothing
4 - 5c - buy Village

   DISCARD = Village, 7c3e; DECK = Chapel, IW

(draw IW, Chapel, reshuffle)

5 - Chapel, IW, 3c - IW (Great Hall, draw 1c), chapel 4c, no buy
6 - village, 1c3e - village (reshuffle, draw 1c), no buy

   DISCARD = Village, 2c3e; DECK = Chapel, IW, Great Hall, 1c3e

7 - Chapel, IW, 1c2e - IW (Island, draw 1e), Chapel (1c3e)

   DISCARD = Chapel, Village, IW, Island, 2c; DECK = Great Hall

(draw Great Hall, reshuffle)

8 - Great Hall, Island, IW, Village, Chapel - IW (Village), Village (draw 1c), Great Hall (draw 1c), Chapel (2c)

   DISCARD = Village, Island, Chapel, Great Hall, Great Hall, IW; DECK = Village

(draw Village, reshuffle)

9 - Village, Village, Island, Great Hall, Great Hall - Village (draw Chapel), Village (draw IW), Island (Chapel), IW (Militia), Great Hall (draw Militia), Militia

   DISCARD = Village, Village, Great Hall, Great Hall, IW, Militia

(reshuffle)

10 - IW, Militia, Great Hall, Great Hall, Village = Village (draw Village), IW (Masquerade), Great Hall (draw Masquerade), Great Hall (nothing to draw), Militia, Masquerade (nothing to draw, nothing to pass, trash incoming card)

(reshuffle - at this point, the pin is complete)

11 - IW, Militia, Masquerade, Great Hall, Great Hall - Great Hall (draw Village), Great Hall (draw Village), Village (nothing to draw), IW (Monument), Village (draw Monument), Monument, Militia, Masquerade (nothing to draw, nothing to pass, trash incoming card)

...etc.

(Technically, on subsequent turns you'll have to IW yourself another village, then IW yourself another Island, then Island away your IW, so that you don't have to keep picking up an action card with IW every turn in order to avoid having it in your hand when you play Masquerade...but this won't be a problem.  Picking up extra villages and extra Monuments before you get rid of IW will help you pick up VP faster, which might actually be necessary, since at 1VP/turn, the silver pile might actually empty before you rack up enough VP to beat your opponent.)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 02:38:54 am by A_S00 »
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gamesou

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2011, 10:47:43 am »
+1

Congratulations to Deadlock39 who found essentially the same solution as mine (they diverge from turn 9, see below) ! The strategy suggested by play2draw and AS_00 looks also nice (I didn't take time to convince myself that it works).

I find it crazy that a key card seems to be the innocent-looking Great Hall.

Now, a puzzle for which I don't know the answer. The Lucky Chancellor wants a rematch. Now, he starts (as stated in the rulebook). Can you still always beat him ?

Below is my solution for the initial problem. It uses only cards from base and intrigue.

Turns 1-2 : open Ironworks/Chapel

Turns 3-8 : do the following: buy nothing and ironwork Great Halls until
you chapel 4 starting cards twice. By the end of turn 8 (possibly
before) you have

Chapel, Ironworks, 2 or 3 Great Halls, 2 starting cards

Turn 9 : play Great Hall, ironwork a Throne Room, and chapel the 3 or 4
remaining cards. You have now

Chapel, Ironworks, Throne Room, Great Hall

Turn 10 : Play Throne Room->Ironwoks to gain Militia/Throne Room, and chapel
the remaining Great Hall. You have now

Chapel, Ironworks, 2 Throne Rooms, Militia

On turn 10 the Lucky Chancellor buys his 7th Province

Turn 11 : Play Throne Room, Throne Room, Militia, Chapel (to trash the
Ironworks). Buy a Masquerade.

You have : Chapel, 2 Throne Rooms, Militia, Masquerade

The attacked Lucky Chancellor buys Gold on his 11th turn.

Turn 12 : Play Throne Room, Throne Room, Militia, Masquerade. You pass a
Chapel to the opponent, and trash the 2 cards he gives you.

For the subsequent turns you apply the pin and trash 2 cards from the
Lucky Chancellor's deck, while he can buy only a Silver. Once his deck
is destroyed, you just collect the remaining Victory cards.

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A_S00

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2011, 11:15:28 am »
0

Checked again; play2draw's solution actually works in the case where you go first without Great Hall.  Here's the worst-case scenario (I stopped when the pin is complete at the end of turn 11; getting yourself set up to pick up VPs works the same as before):

1 - 4c1e - buy IW
2 - 3c2e - buy Chapel

(reshuffle)

3 - 3e2c - do nothing
4 - 5c - buy Village

   DISCARD = Village, 7c3e; DECK = Chapel, IW

(draw IW, Chapel, reshuffle)

5 - Chapel, IW, 3c - IW (Island, draw 1c), chapel 4c
6 - village, 1c3e - village (reshuffle, draw 1c)

   DISCARD = Village, 2c3e; DECK = IW, Island, Chapel, 1c

7 - Chapel, Island, IW, 1c1e - IW (Village), Chapel (1c1e)

   DISCARD = Chapel, Island, IW; DECK = Village, Village, 2c2e

8 - Village, 2c2e - Village (draw Village), Village (draw Island)

   DISCARD = Village, Village, Island, 2c2e; DECK = Chapel, IW

9 - Chapel, IW, Island, Village, Village - Village (draw 1c), Village (draw 1c), Chapel (2c)

   DISCARD = Chapel, IW, Island, Village, Village; DECK = 2e

10 - IW, Village, Island, 2e - Village (draw Chapel), Chapel (2e), IW (Militia)

   DISCARD = IW, Village, Island, Chapel; DECK = Village, Militia

11 - Village, Militia, Chapel, Island, IW - IW (Masquerade), Village (draw Village), Village (draw Masquerade), Island (Chapel), Militia, Masquerade (nothing to draw, nothing to pass, trash incoming card)


-----

For the case where the Chancellor player goes first, the solution I posted above works (pin complete at the end of turn 10).

*edit* Actually, I'm wrong.  The solution from my previous post doesn't quite work, because of the VP stuff at the end.

Specifically, once you IW yourself a second Island, it becomes possible to draw (IW, Militia, Monument, Masquerade, Island) on any given turn.  With that hand, you can IW yourself a Great Hall to make it possible to draw your entire deck and continue the pin, but doing so makes it impossible to Island away your IW (since it's in play).

However, the addition of Peddler to the kingdom makes the solution work.  Play the same game up through completing the pin on turn 10.  On turn 11, instead of IW (Monument), you IW (Peddler).  You do this four times, on turns 11-14 (you are guaranteed to be able to play your entire deck on these turns, so Peddler will always cost $0).  Then you IW (Island) on turn 15.  On 16, your turn is:

IW, Militia, Masquerade, Island, Great Hall - Great Hall (draw Great Hall), Great Hall (draw Village), Village (draw Village), Village (draw Peddler), Peddler (draw Peddler), Peddler (draw Peddler), Peddler (draw Peddler), Peddler (nothing to draw), Island (IW), Militia, Masquerade (nothing to draw, nothing to pass, trash incoming card), buy Monument

Your deck now consists of (Masquerade, Militia, Monument, Great Hall x2, Village x2, Peddler x4).  With only 3 terminals, you are guaranteed to be able to play your entire deck without gaining any cards every turn.  You can even pick up a second Monument to double your VP income rate without risking letting up the pin.


With that revision, the Kingdom becomes (Chapel, Chancellor, Village, Great Hall, Masquerade, Ironworks, Militia, Island, Monument, Peddler) for a total of 10 cards - just fits!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 11:44:29 am by A_S00 »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2011, 11:50:28 am »
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You can't ironworks peddler without having 2 quarries play via black market or 4 bridges in play, because peddler doesn't get cheaper until the buy phase. So it doesn't work.

Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2011, 11:51:33 am »
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Peddler will only cost $0 in the buy phase. Ironworks does not operate in the buy phase.

Ninja'd. I expected it.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2011, 02:32:07 am »
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What you should do is find someone in real life, and challenge them to a game where you choose the kingdom, and they can only buy Chancellor, treasure and victory cards, but can choose the order of both decks every time either is shuffled, and see if you can beat them.
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rogerclee

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2011, 04:09:00 pm »
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I just want to say I thought this was a really inventive and clever puzzle, well done.
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gamesou

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2011, 03:59:48 pm »
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I just want to say I thought this was a really inventive and clever puzzle, well done.

Thanks for the feedback !
Now I wonder how these strategies work in real games ... certainly this would lead to strange situations.
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Razzishi

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2011, 05:17:32 pm »
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In a real game, your opponent buys Militia and the plan doesn't work at all.  But if you see this board and for some reason the opponent doesn't buy Militia, you're all set.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2011, 05:49:13 pm »
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If this (entire) board was out, and your opponent was not going for the same thing, I don't really think him buying a Militia is going to slow you down that much.  The absolute worst possible luck has the combo set up in 11 turns, which is already fast.  Normal luck sets it up much faster, and getting hit by Militia a few times will only slow it a little.  You would still set up the pin long before your opponent could finish the game.

Once it is set up, it is impervious to Militia.  You only have 4 cards in the combo, and one of them is Village, which also happens to be the first card you play in the combo.  Discard one, then when your turn starts, you just play the Village and draw it back.

DG

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2011, 07:49:02 pm »
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The chancellor certainly is lucky. I've found a few kingdoms where you can beat the chancellor purely on vp (even on worst draws) but the chancellor would make it make it 11 cards in the kingdom. I'll keep looking :) .
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2011, 08:13:27 pm »
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DG, could you post those? I'm pretty shocked by that if it's really true without any (or even much) interference and on worst draws.

DG

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2011, 08:32:12 pm »
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I'll do it tomorrow. I think I've got it within a 10 card kingdom restriction using goons (as this delays the chancellor one turn) but it'll take a while to write it out in a verifiable form.
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DG

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2011, 09:09:42 am »
+1

Here we go then.

#1 - buy ironworks
#2 - buy chapel
#3 - buy ironworks
#4 - buy cellar

At this point we have have the worst draws, all copper and estates, but we're not dependent upon 5/2 or 4/3 splits. On turn 5 there's a different continuation if you immediately draw the cellar. You get to cycle the cards and use the ironworks more often but only trash 3 cards on turn 5. The worst draws puzzle is pretty bad to prove since I should really exhaust all possible draws and exhaust everyone's patience.

#5 - ironworks, chapel, copper, copper, copper: ironworks gains great hall draws copper, chapel trashes 4 copper
#6 - 3 estate, 2 copper - do nothing
#7 - cellar, ironworks, chapel, copper, copper : ironworks gains great hall draws copper, chapel trashes 3 copper

On turn 7 the cellar will always find the chapel if it is not originally in hand, so having it hand becomes the worse draw since we don't play extra ironworks. After turn 8 we have a deck where we can play out all the non-terminal actions and leave the remaining cards as a five card hand. The original 5 cards drawn are then not relevant. I'm ignoring the play of the self-replacing cards for brevity.

#8 - ironworks gains great hall draws estate, chapel trashes 3 estates and cellar; ironworks left on deck.
deck consists of 2 ironworks, 3 great halls, chapel.

#9 - play out cards to leave ironworks, ironworks, chapel, great hall, great hall in hand; ironworks gains worker's village; play great hall draw worker's village; ironworks gains ironworks; play worker's village draw ironworks;ironworks gains remodel; play great hall draw remodel; remodel chapel to worker's village.
deck consists of 3 ironworks, 3 great halls, 2 worker's village, remodel

#10 - play out cards to leave ironworks, ironworks, ironworks, remodel, great hall (or village); play ironworks gain worker's village; play ironworks gain worker's village; play great hall and draw worker's village; play that to draw the worker's village; remodel ironworks to goons; play worker's village draw goons; play goons; buy 4 peddlers (4vp tokens)
deck consists of 2 ironworks, 3 great halls, 4 worker's villages, remodel, goons, 4 peddlers

#11 - play out cards (using both ironworks for great halls) to leave great hall, remodel, goons, worker's village, great hall; remodel worker's village to goons; draw goons with great hall; play both goons; buy 5 peddlers and worker's village (12vp tokens),
deck consists of 2 ironworks, 5 great halls, 4 worker's villages, remodel, 2 goons, 9 peddlers.

#12 - play out cards (using both ironworks for great halls) to leave remodel, goons, goons, great hall, peddler; remodel the peddler to a province and play both goons; buy peddler and 6 estates (14 vp tokens)

Deck contains province, 7 great halls, 6 estates, 4 worker's villages, 2 ironworks, remodel, 2 goons, 9 peddlers.
Trash contains 7 copper, 3 estates, chapel, cellar, ironworks, worker's village, peddler.

vp = 30 in chips plus 19 in cards = 49

After 11 turns the lucky chancellor has bought chancellor, silver, gold, province, province, province, province, province, province, gold, province for 45 vp.

Kingdom consists of chapel, cellar, great hall, chancellor, remodel, ironworks, worker's village, goons, peddler, any last card

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a small problem somewhere in the solution since it is quite complicated, lots of cards, and the worst draws stipulation is very punitive. There is however a lot of leeway in the final few turns of the solution and you can certainly gain more points by working a bit harder with a chosen 10th kingdom card. From turn 8 there are also a lot of possible solutions opening up since you can buy an early peddler and remodel it into almost any card of your choosing (king's court, expand, etc). Ignoring the remodel and using islands and vineyards could be tempting too since you can gain a truly massive number of action cards.
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mconst

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2011, 07:14:57 pm »
+26

It is indeed possible to beat the Lucky Chancellor even if he goes first.  Here's a proof.

This works even against a smart Lucky Chancellor who doesn't follow the strict "Big Money" algorithm -- instead, we'll say he buys a Chancellor on his first turn and then can buy whatever basic cards he wants.  (This change makes the Lucky Chancellor significantly stronger.  He can now buy Copper to recover after we trash his deck, and he can buy out Duchies, Estates, and Curses to end the game before we're finished trashing his deck.)

The ten kingdom cards are Chancellor, Chapel, Ironworks, Great Hall, Worker's Village, Pawn, Peddler, Militia, King's Court, and Masquerade.

Open Chapel/Ironworks.  This is always possible, regardless of which split we get.  Our goal is now to Chapel away eight of our ten starting cards, and acquire a Worker's Village and a Pawn.

For now, whenever we draw the Ironworks, we'll use it to gain a Great Hall.  This means the Ironworks is a self-replacing card for now (i.e. it gives +1 Card and +1 Action), and of course the Great Halls are always self-replacing.  We stop using the Ironworks for Great Halls after turn 9, so we don't have to worry about running out of them.  Similarly, the Worker's Village (once we pick that up) is self-replacing, and we'll use the Pawn for a card and an action to make it self-replacing too.

We aren't using the self-replacing cards for anything useful yet, so it doesn't matter when we draw them.  Whenever we get one, we play it, and then it's as if the self-replacing card wasn't even there.  In other words, our deck behaves exactly like a deck of just a Chapel and ten starting cards.  This makes it easy to analyze!

We must draw the Chapel some time between turns 3 and 5.  There are two possibilities:

CASE 1: CHAPEL ON TURN 5.
      Since we don't draw the Chapel on turns 3 or 4, those turns (once we've played any self-replacing cards) will consist entirely of starting cards.  We'll therefore have either the $3/$4 split or the $2/$5 split; either way, we can buy a Worker's Village and a Pawn.

On turn 5, we finally draw the Chapel with four starting cards.  Trash them all.  Sadly, our Chapel missed the shuffle, so we don't draw it on turn 6, but it must show up again on turn 7 or 8.  When that happens, trash another four starting cards.

CASE 2: CHAPEL BEFORE TURN 5.
      Since we draw the Chapel on turn 3 or 4, one of those turns (after we've played any self-replacing cards) must be the Chapel and four starting cards, and the other must be just five starting cards.  On the Chapel turn, trash all four cards; on the other turn, we must have at least $2, so buy a Pawn.

The Chapel does get shuffled in this time, so we'll draw it again on turn 5 or 6, and we can trash another four cards.

Now that we've trashed eight starting cards, we're going to start using the Ironworks to gain things other than Great Halls, so the Ironworks is no longer a self-replacing card.  Even so, our deck only has four non-self-replacing cards (Chapel, Ironworks, and two starting cards), so we're guaranteed to draw our whole deck each turn.  Therefore, on the next turn, we play all the self-replacing cards and Ironworks a Worker's Village.

Either way, by turn 8, we've managed to trash eight starting cards and gain a Worker's Village and a Pawn.  Our plan is now to use King's Court/Masquerade to trash the Lucky Chancellor's deck while we buy up all the Worker's Villages, Peddlers, and Great Halls to end the game.  However, we have to be careful not to empty any piles before the last turn, because otherwise the Lucky Chancellor could end the game before we're finished trashing his deck.

As above, we're now using the Ironworks for things other than Great Halls, so it's no longer a self-replacing card.  Similarly, we'll sometimes use the Pawn for things other than a card and an action.  As long as we only have four non-self-replacing cards each turn, though, we can always draw our entire deck -- to make this easy to track, I'll put each turn's non-self-replacing cards in bold.

Turn 9: Our deck is Ironworks, Chapel, two starting cards, Worker's Village, Pawn, and some number of Great Halls.

Play all the self-replacing cards except the very last one, so our hand consists of Ironworks, Chapel, two starting cards, and a self-replacing card.  Our deck and discard are empty.  Ironworks a Pawn, which becomes the only card in our discard, then play the remaining self-replacing card to draw it.  We've now played all our self-replacing cards, so we have +2 Actions and +1 Buy from the Worker's Village; play the Pawn for a buy and anything, and Chapel the last two starting cards.  We have at least four action cards in play (Worker's Village, Ironworks, and two Pawns), so Peddlers are free.  Buy three of them.

Turn 10: Our deck is Ironworks, Chapel, two Pawns, Worker's Village, three Peddlers, and some number of Great Halls.

As before, play all the self-replacing cards except the last one, then Ironworks a Militia and play the last self-replacing card to draw it.  We now have +$3 from the Peddlers, as well as +2 Actions and +1 Buy from the Worker's Village.  Play one Pawn for an action and a coin, and the other for a buy and a coin.  Play the Militia.  That's a total of $7; buy a King's Court and two more Peddlers.

If we hadn't played the Militia, the Lucky Chancellor would now buy the last Province.  (Remember, he went first!)  With only three cards in hand, though, he can't do it -- if he has seven Provinces already, then he only has one Gold, so his hand is worth at most $7.  If he has more Gold and fewer Provinces, he can buy another Province this turn, but it isn't the last one.  Either way, he can't end the game this turn.

Also, he's played 11 turns so far, so he has at most 21 cards in his deck.  This will become relevant soon.

Turn 11: Our deck is Ironworks, Chapel, Militia, King's Court, Worker's Village, two Pawns, five Peddlers, and some number of Great Halls.

As before, play all the self-replacing cards except the last one, then Ironworks a Masquerade and play the last self-replacing card to draw it.  We have +2 Actions from the Worker's Village, so Chapel the Militia (!) and King's Court the Masquerade.  We draw nothing and have nothing to pass; trash the three cards we receive from the Lucky Chancellor, so he's left with at most 18 cards in his deck.  Buy two more Peddlers.

The Lucky Chancellor now has only two cards in hand.  He'll never have more than that for the rest of the game, so no matter how much Gold he has he'll never buy another Province.  (Fortunately, we're not playing with Platinum!)  He can try to end the game on piles, but we haven't bought any basic cards or emptied any piles ourselves, so the quickest he can do it is turn 27 (by opening Chancellor/Estate and buying out Duchies, Estates, and Curses).  We'll clean out his entire deck before then.

Turn 12: Our deck is Ironworks, Chapel, King's Court, Masquerade, Worker's Village, two Pawns, seven Peddlers, and some number of Great Halls.

Now we're set.  For the next nine turns, we're going to play all our self-replacing cards but one, Ironworks a Worker's Village, play the last self-replacing card to draw it, and play it; then we play the Chapel, trashing nothing, and King's Court the Masquerade to trash three of the Lucky Chancellor's cards.  He's buying at most one card per turn, so by turn 20 we will have trashed his entire deck.  We have plenty of buys from the Worker's Villages and plenty of coins from the Peddlers, so it's no problem to buy all but one of the Peddlers and Great Halls by turn 19; on turn 20, after we've Ironworksed the last Worker's Village and trashed the last of the Lucky Chancellor's cards, we buy the last Peddler and Great Hall to end the game.
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pst

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2011, 06:30:44 am »
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Best first post ever!
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gamesou

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2011, 10:59:41 am »
+1

Very nice solution mconst ! I thought a bit about the problem and couldn't solve it, your solution has some nice subtleties ... and you explain it very well, it's a pleasure to read.

I learnt something useful from this puzzle: the Chapel/Ironworks opening is very strong if there is some way to set a combo using cheap cards. If both are available that's something to check.

Best first post ever!

Does my OP qualifies for the second best first post ever ?   ;)

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Guillaume

Self-promotion: my first boardgame, Witty Chronos, has just been published ! :)
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pst

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Re: Can you beat the Lucky Chancellor ?
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2011, 05:10:19 pm »
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Best first post ever!

Does my OP qualifies for the second best first post ever ?   ;)

Oops, didn't realize that was also a first post, as it was already here when I started reading here. (Yes, And I'm very new here, so obviously I shouldn't make any "ever" statements.) I should have added [no actual comparison intended] in small print.  :)) Just kudos to everyone with a solution to this very nice problem.
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