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Author Topic: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!  (Read 34843 times)

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popsofctown

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #100 on: September 24, 2012, 04:59:12 pm »
0

I only voted for three cards in this contest -- HYH (of course!), Love Me Do (which I liked for the zaniness) and Julia (which had interesting implications on strategy).

Thanks for the vote, eHalcyon. I have to be honest here -- I didn't vote for HYH, even though I liked it, because I thought it was yours! I've noticed that you tend to talk up your cards a bit more than the others in your assessments, which I thought might have swayed the votes your way (good cards as your multiple winners are, that's why I don't like entrants discussing cards and also why I did the same anyway :P). To test this theory out, I withheld my votes from Hold Your Hand. It was a very juvenile thing to do, and I owe you and popsofctown a big apology -- though it's not like Astrolabe needed my points.

Congrats on a well-deserved victory, pops!

Mm.  Someone needs to practice some forum mafia ;).
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 05:02:04 pm by popsofctown »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #101 on: September 24, 2012, 05:02:04 pm »
0

I only voted for three cards in this contest -- HYH (of course!), Love Me Do (which I liked for the zaniness) and Julia (which had interesting implications on strategy).

Thanks for the vote, eHalcyon. I have to be honest here -- I didn't vote for HYH, even though I liked it, because I thought it was yours! I've noticed that you tend to talk up your cards a bit more than the others in your assessments, which I thought might have swayed the votes your way (good cards as your multiple winners are, that's why I don't like entrants discussing cards and also why I did the same anyway :P). To test this theory out, I withheld my votes from Hold Your Hand. It was a very juvenile thing to do, and I owe you and popsofctown a big apology -- though it's not like Astrolabe needed my points.

Congrats on a well-deserved victory, pops!

When people discuss my card, I actually try to let it go until after voting is over.  Also, I think I stated explicitly that HYH was not my card, and I certainly wouldn't lie about that.

Since I've already won more than my fair share, I'm even less inclined to defend my entries or even talk positively about them (e.g. my entry into this particular contest, which I roundly criticized in my big post).
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Schneau

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #102 on: September 24, 2012, 05:18:26 pm »
0

I only voted for three cards in this contest -- HYH (of course!), Love Me Do (which I liked for the zaniness) and Julia (which had interesting implications on strategy).

Thanks for the vote, eHalcyon. I have to be honest here -- I didn't vote for HYH, even though I liked it, because I thought it was yours! I've noticed that you tend to talk up your cards a bit more than the others in your assessments, which I thought might have swayed the votes your way (good cards as your multiple winners are, that's why I don't like entrants discussing cards and also why I did the same anyway :P). To test this theory out, I withheld my votes from Hold Your Hand. It was a very juvenile thing to do, and I owe you and popsofctown a big apology -- though it's not like Astrolabe needed my points.

Congrats on a well-deserved victory, pops!

When people discuss my card, I actually try to let it go until after voting is over.  Also, I think I stated explicitly that HYH was not my card, and I certainly wouldn't lie about that.

Since I've already won more than my fair share, I'm even less inclined to defend my entries or even talk positively about them (e.g. my entry into this particular contest, which I roundly criticized in my big post).

Though it sounds like you knew it was popsofctown's card, since he says you helped him decide on a submission and refine the cost. It almost seems a little hokey to strongly support a card that you know the author of and helped choose. Granted, I'm sure you like the card a lot and I don't want to imply that it shouldn't have won the contest, but it's a little weird to post a big discussion of a card you helped with.

Anyway, I don't want to pick a fight because I respect your opinion and like many of your fan cards. But, for the future, it seems like any strong backing of a single card by any poster will likely hold more sway than a review of all options, which is something to keep in mind to make sure future challenges are fair.
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Archetype

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #103 on: September 24, 2012, 05:44:59 pm »
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Great job pops! I gave your card three votes  ;D

Really like the idea!
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popsofctown

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #104 on: September 24, 2012, 06:03:03 pm »
0

I only voted for three cards in this contest -- HYH (of course!), Love Me Do (which I liked for the zaniness) and Julia (which had interesting implications on strategy).

Thanks for the vote, eHalcyon. I have to be honest here -- I didn't vote for HYH, even though I liked it, because I thought it was yours! I've noticed that you tend to talk up your cards a bit more than the others in your assessments, which I thought might have swayed the votes your way (good cards as your multiple winners are, that's why I don't like entrants discussing cards and also why I did the same anyway :P). To test this theory out, I withheld my votes from Hold Your Hand. It was a very juvenile thing to do, and I owe you and popsofctown a big apology -- though it's not like Astrolabe needed my points.

Congrats on a well-deserved victory, pops!

When people discuss my card, I actually try to let it go until after voting is over.  Also, I think I stated explicitly that HYH was not my card, and I certainly wouldn't lie about that.

Since I've already won more than my fair share, I'm even less inclined to defend my entries or even talk positively about them (e.g. my entry into this particular contest, which I roundly criticized in my big post).

Though it sounds like you knew it was popsofctown's card, since he says you helped him decide on a submission and refine the cost. It almost seems a little hokey to strongly support a card that you know the author of and helped choose. Granted, I'm sure you like the card a lot and I don't want to imply that it shouldn't have won the contest, but it's a little weird to post a big discussion of a card you helped with.

Anyway, I don't want to pick a fight because I respect your opinion and like many of your fan cards. But, for the future, it seems like any strong backing of a single card by any poster will likely hold more sway than a review of all options, which is something to keep in mind to make sure future challenges are fair.
He selected it out of a pile of ideas and suggested bumping it to 4$, which who knows, I may have done on my own when I got out of the brainstorming phase. 
I don't think he had enough ownership over the idea to affect his commentary.
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theory

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #105 on: September 24, 2012, 06:29:43 pm »
0

Amusingly, I submitted nearly the same card as popsofctown did, but earlier in the competition as a Reaction-Treasure (i.e., you can reveal from hand for on-gain effects as well). 

I priced it at $4 / giving +$2, though, since it doesn't seem like it would work at $4 / giving +$1.  How often do you buy stuff that you don't want in your deck?  Only green cards, and +$1 is not enough for most green cards.  And the cheap green cards, well, you aren't usually buying them, you're usually gaining them, so a Treasure doesn't do much there either.  But it seems I must be in the wrong :)

Which contest was that in?  A Silver with that reaction would be too strong, I think.  I'd like it as a terminal +$2 though.  I'd like to go back and read my thought on the card before.  Maybe my opinion on it has wildly changed, after only a few weeks.  ;D

FWIW, I do prefer it as a reaction instead of a "while this is in play" effect.  Nice interaction with junking attacks.

Yeah, I think a terminal +$2 Action-Reaction is probably best, since it seems like it is best suited to construct an alternate "weak-turn" engine that can barely get to $8 consistently but which doesn't have to worry about greening.  The wording on that would be nightmarish (and I had difficulties with mine as well) because you want to be able to both reveal it from hand and also make use of it while it is in play.

At +$1, though, I cannot imagine when I'd buy it.  That +$1 is partially why Talisman is so bad, because you're actively hurting your potential buying power.
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Schneau

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #106 on: September 24, 2012, 06:49:06 pm »
0

I only voted for three cards in this contest -- HYH (of course!), Love Me Do (which I liked for the zaniness) and Julia (which had interesting implications on strategy).

Thanks for the vote, eHalcyon. I have to be honest here -- I didn't vote for HYH, even though I liked it, because I thought it was yours! I've noticed that you tend to talk up your cards a bit more than the others in your assessments, which I thought might have swayed the votes your way (good cards as your multiple winners are, that's why I don't like entrants discussing cards and also why I did the same anyway :P). To test this theory out, I withheld my votes from Hold Your Hand. It was a very juvenile thing to do, and I owe you and popsofctown a big apology -- though it's not like Astrolabe needed my points.

Congrats on a well-deserved victory, pops!

When people discuss my card, I actually try to let it go until after voting is over.  Also, I think I stated explicitly that HYH was not my card, and I certainly wouldn't lie about that.

Since I've already won more than my fair share, I'm even less inclined to defend my entries or even talk positively about them (e.g. my entry into this particular contest, which I roundly criticized in my big post).

Though it sounds like you knew it was popsofctown's card, since he says you helped him decide on a submission and refine the cost. It almost seems a little hokey to strongly support a card that you know the author of and helped choose. Granted, I'm sure you like the card a lot and I don't want to imply that it shouldn't have won the contest, but it's a little weird to post a big discussion of a card you helped with.

Anyway, I don't want to pick a fight because I respect your opinion and like many of your fan cards. But, for the future, it seems like any strong backing of a single card by any poster will likely hold more sway than a review of all options, which is something to keep in mind to make sure future challenges are fair.
He selected it out of a pile of ideas and suggested bumping it to 4$, which who knows, I may have done on my own when I got out of the brainstorming phase. 
I don't think he had enough ownership over the idea to affect his commentary.

Fair enough, I was under the impression he had more to do with it than I thought. Sorry to raise a stink.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #107 on: September 24, 2012, 08:03:25 pm »
+1

I only voted for three cards in this contest -- HYH (of course!), Love Me Do (which I liked for the zaniness) and Julia (which had interesting implications on strategy).

Thanks for the vote, eHalcyon. I have to be honest here -- I didn't vote for HYH, even though I liked it, because I thought it was yours! I've noticed that you tend to talk up your cards a bit more than the others in your assessments, which I thought might have swayed the votes your way (good cards as your multiple winners are, that's why I don't like entrants discussing cards and also why I did the same anyway :P). To test this theory out, I withheld my votes from Hold Your Hand. It was a very juvenile thing to do, and I owe you and popsofctown a big apology -- though it's not like Astrolabe needed my points.

Congrats on a well-deserved victory, pops!

When people discuss my card, I actually try to let it go until after voting is over.  Also, I think I stated explicitly that HYH was not my card, and I certainly wouldn't lie about that.

Since I've already won more than my fair share, I'm even less inclined to defend my entries or even talk positively about them (e.g. my entry into this particular contest, which I roundly criticized in my big post).

Though it sounds like you knew it was popsofctown's card, since he says you helped him decide on a submission and refine the cost. It almost seems a little hokey to strongly support a card that you know the author of and helped choose. Granted, I'm sure you like the card a lot and I don't want to imply that it shouldn't have won the contest, but it's a little weird to post a big discussion of a card you helped with.

Anyway, I don't want to pick a fight because I respect your opinion and like many of your fan cards. But, for the future, it seems like any strong backing of a single card by any poster will likely hold more sway than a review of all options, which is something to keep in mind to make sure future challenges are fair.
He selected it out of a pile of ideas and suggested bumping it to 4$, which who knows, I may have done on my own when I got out of the brainstorming phase. 
I don't think he had enough ownership over the idea to affect his commentary.

Fair enough, I was under the impression he had more to do with it than I thought. Sorry to raise a stink.

It's an understandable concern.  I don't know pops IRL, nor have we really interacted that much on the forums, so I don't think there is any concern to be had there.  As pops said, all I did was say that this was my favourite of his several ideas, and I suggested dropping the price from $5 to $4.  That might have actually been a bad suggestion, considering some of the comments that people had!

I was somewhat vocal (though less so) for Kirian's Courier/Wind Chimes as well, and I knew nothing in advance about that one. :)
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Saucery

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #108 on: September 24, 2012, 08:10:25 pm »
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Man. My submissions are always in the middle of the road (with the ocassional bomb). Grats to pops that card is slick and simple.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #109 on: September 24, 2012, 08:15:57 pm »
0

Yay! My card made an okay showing. Also I loved the winner, good design. Immediately I wanted to try it out when I read about it.

Also I'd like vote for "Compass" over "Astrolabe" for the name.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #110 on: September 24, 2012, 08:43:34 pm »
+1

Amusingly, I submitted nearly the same card as popsofctown did, but earlier in the competition as a Reaction-Treasure (i.e., you can reveal from hand for on-gain effects as well). 

I priced it at $4 / giving +$2, though, since it doesn't seem like it would work at $4 / giving +$1.  How often do you buy stuff that you don't want in your deck?  Only green cards, and +$1 is not enough for most green cards.  And the cheap green cards, well, you aren't usually buying them, you're usually gaining them, so a Treasure doesn't do much there either.  But it seems I must be in the wrong :)

Which contest was that in?  A Silver with that reaction would be too strong, I think.  I'd like it as a terminal +$2 though.  I'd like to go back and read my thought on the card before.  Maybe my opinion on it has wildly changed, after only a few weeks.  ;D

FWIW, I do prefer it as a reaction instead of a "while this is in play" effect.  Nice interaction with junking attacks.

Yeah, I think a terminal +$2 Action-Reaction is probably best, since it seems like it is best suited to construct an alternate "weak-turn" engine that can barely get to $8 consistently but which doesn't have to worry about greening.  The wording on that would be nightmarish (and I had difficulties with mine as well) because you want to be able to both reveal it from hand and also make use of it while it is in play.

At +$1, though, I cannot imagine when I'd buy it.  That +$1 is partially why Talisman is so bad, because you're actively hurting your potential buying power.
I'm gonna argue this is quite a bit stronger than Talisman, theory.  Gaining an extra copy of a 4$ card is worth an extra 4$ card.  Setting aside a Victory card when you gain it is approximately equivalent in worth to a Lab, a 5$ card. (Having a dead card in your deck is similar to putting a slip of paper in your deck that pops up and says "next time you would draw a card don't".  It's polar opposite is Lab, a little slip of paper in your that pops up and says "next time you would draw a card, draw two instead".  As another thought exercise, Islanding a card is functionally equivalent to stapling it to a Lab and shuffling it in.)
A 5$ card is much more powerful than a 4$ card.  Furthermore, being forced to purchase cards costing 4$ or less is terribly restrictive, but having choices at 5$ and 8$ is possible to accommodate as long as you time its purchase similarly to Possession's potion.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 08:46:07 pm by popsofctown »
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popsofctown

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #111 on: September 24, 2012, 08:47:47 pm »
0

Yay! My card made an okay showing. Also I loved the winner, good design. Immediately I wanted to try it out when I read about it.

Also I'd like vote for "Compass" over "Astrolabe" for the name.
Any reason why?
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Mecherath

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #112 on: September 24, 2012, 08:52:50 pm »
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Another middle of the road showing for me as well.

#13 (tie) - Letter of Credit by Mecherath with 8 points (Cry Instead)
$4 - Treasure
Worth $1
--
Choose one: $1 Card; or +1 Buy; or +$1.

I wish I had remembered the never do Silver at $4 rule.  Though really it's a gimped Venture, a Silver, or Copper-with-a-buy.  They're all too weak to be $5, but when Donald X talks, people listen.

Only things I can think of to save it are make it Gain a Copper in Hand instead of $1, or maybe bump it up to $5, add a 4th choice (no idea what) and let you pick two.  Oh well.  Good contest, and congrats to Pops.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #113 on: September 24, 2012, 08:56:20 pm »
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Yay! My card made an okay showing. Also I loved the winner, good design. Immediately I wanted to try it out when I read about it.

Also I'd like vote for "Compass" over "Astrolabe" for the name.
Any reason why?

I quite like Astrolabe.  Another option could be Lodestone, maybe.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #114 on: September 24, 2012, 09:05:17 pm »
0

Well done to the winner.

Glad to see I got a few votes for "Wait"/"Magnet" despite it being overpowered.

The concept of a powerful card that always misses the reshuffle will return. Probably when there's a duration competition.
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theory

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #115 on: September 24, 2012, 09:09:20 pm »
+1

Amusingly, I submitted nearly the same card as popsofctown did, but earlier in the competition as a Reaction-Treasure (i.e., you can reveal from hand for on-gain effects as well). 

I priced it at $4 / giving +$2, though, since it doesn't seem like it would work at $4 / giving +$1.  How often do you buy stuff that you don't want in your deck?  Only green cards, and +$1 is not enough for most green cards.  And the cheap green cards, well, you aren't usually buying them, you're usually gaining them, so a Treasure doesn't do much there either.  But it seems I must be in the wrong :)

Which contest was that in?  A Silver with that reaction would be too strong, I think.  I'd like it as a terminal +$2 though.  I'd like to go back and read my thought on the card before.  Maybe my opinion on it has wildly changed, after only a few weeks.  ;D

FWIW, I do prefer it as a reaction instead of a "while this is in play" effect.  Nice interaction with junking attacks.

Yeah, I think a terminal +$2 Action-Reaction is probably best, since it seems like it is best suited to construct an alternate "weak-turn" engine that can barely get to $8 consistently but which doesn't have to worry about greening.  The wording on that would be nightmarish (and I had difficulties with mine as well) because you want to be able to both reveal it from hand and also make use of it while it is in play.

At +$1, though, I cannot imagine when I'd buy it.  That +$1 is partially why Talisman is so bad, because you're actively hurting your potential buying power.
I'm gonna argue this is quite a bit stronger than Talisman, theory.  Gaining an extra copy of a 4$ card is worth an extra 4$ card.  Setting aside a Victory card when you gain it is approximately equivalent in worth to a Lab, a 5$ card. (Having a dead card in your deck is similar to putting a slip of paper in your deck that pops up and says "next time you would draw a card don't".  It's polar opposite is Lab, a little slip of paper in your that pops up and says "next time you would draw a card, draw two instead".  As another thought exercise, Islanding a card is functionally equivalent to stapling it to a Lab and shuffling it in.)
A 5$ card is much more powerful than a 4$ card.  Furthermore, being forced to purchase cards costing 4$ or less is terribly restrictive, but having choices at 5$ and 8$ is possible to accommodate as long as you time its purchase similarly to Possession's potion.
It's absolutely not approximately equivalent to a Laboratory.  Laboratory is good early game because it increases your handsize.  This is bad early game because it's functionally a Copper until you start buying green cards, and even when you start buying green cards it's more like a Spy than a Laboratory, and you have to hope you draw it in your Province hand, and it sets aside at best one Province per reshuffle.
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Polk5440

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #116 on: September 24, 2012, 09:20:16 pm »
0

I suggested dropping the price from $5 to $4.

It is all starting to make sense. My panning the card because of how I perceived its strength and price was kind of insulting to you personally since it was your suggestion to lower the price!

It sounds like lots of people are eager to try Island Astrolabe out -- hopefully it will turn out just fine.

Congrats to pops for the win.

(I did give Lucy 3 points hoping for an upset, though! But even there, the stronger version got more votes.)
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popsofctown

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #117 on: September 24, 2012, 09:28:43 pm »
0

The card is a Talisman variant; I'm not comparing it to Laboratory itself.  Rather, each time you buy a Victory card with it, setting that Victory card aside is worth approximately as much as gaining a Laboratory.  Every time the Province or Duchy would be drawn, you don't, so you have an additional live card in hand.  If a Laboratory was added to your deck and you drew it along with that Province or Duchy every time, you would get the same effect.

The "gaining a Laboratory" effect is more powerful than the "gaining a 4$ card effect", so I expect this card to be stronger than Talisman.  Maybe it is both stronger than Talisman and still too weak, perhaps, but I expect this to hit the table more than Talisman does.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #118 on: September 24, 2012, 09:30:04 pm »
0

I suggested dropping the price from $5 to $4.

It is all starting to make sense. My panning the card because of how I perceived its strength and price was kind of insulting to you personally since it was your suggestion to lower the price!

It sounds like lots of people are eager to try Island Astrolabe out -- hopefully it will turn out just fine.

Congrats to pops for the win.

(I did give Lucy 3 points hoping for an upset, though! But even there, the stronger version got more votes.)

Not insulting at all! I just disagree. :P
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Polk5440

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #119 on: September 24, 2012, 09:43:58 pm »
0

As for my card, Copper Press/Walrus, it really is the most fun fan card I have played with and am happy it placed as high as it did -- it's not a card you read and immediately go, "that seems like a great card!" But playing it really is fun.

Copper Press seems to not have the problems that DXV has mentioned with his cards that give Coppers because it gets rid of Coppers from your deck, as well, so you don't have Kingdoms where there is no way to deal with them. It's fairly slow, as well, because it does not put Coppers directly into another player's discard pile -- they have to be gained, first. It is debatable whether it should be at $2 or $3, though.
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Polk5440

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #120 on: September 24, 2012, 09:44:59 pm »
0

I suggested dropping the price from $5 to $4.

It is all starting to make sense. My panning the card because of how I perceived its strength and price was kind of insulting to you personally since it was your suggestion to lower the price!

It sounds like lots of people are eager to try Island Astrolabe out -- hopefully it will turn out just fine.

Congrats to pops for the win.

(I did give Lucy 3 points hoping for an upset, though! But even there, the stronger version got more votes.)

Not insulting at all! I just disagree. :P

Oh, good. I'm glad I didn't actually insult you. I do apologize if I did....
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #121 on: September 24, 2012, 10:20:52 pm »
0

Oh, good. I'm glad I didn't actually insult you. I do apologize if I did....

No, not at all.  I make plenty of mistakes in design and judgement, and it's difficult to design or judge without any real playtesting.  I don't mind being wrong, and I don't mind if people disagree with me. :)
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #122 on: September 24, 2012, 11:14:21 pm »
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My card was so grossly unbalanced. I liked the general idea too much to bother trying to develop it much beyond the initial thought.

I liked the winning card in my comments, then straight-up missed it in voting. Glad it won, twas a solid idea.

Lucy
$4 - Treasure
Worth $1
When you play this, reveal your hand.  +$1 per Victory card revealed.

Simple and clean. Though what's with all the unnecessary "when you play" clauses going on this round?

The official Treasure cards with non-vanilla on-play effects are all worded that way.  Why, I don't know.  But the wording you are seeing is about being consistent with the official cards.

Hunh. I never noticed.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 12:58:41 am by Rush_Clasic »
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JFugue

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #123 on: September 25, 2012, 12:47:09 am »
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Congratulations to pops.  Although if we're tossing out astrologically related fun name ideas, I might have to add my personal favorite to the mix: "Orrery".

I'm afraid I haven't been able to participate in these two challenges as much as I would like.  I got very sick over the weekend and was basically a vegetable for four days.  Still recovering even now.



Since it came up, here is my reason why my card Michelle/Jewelry Box had that crazy "cannot buy with a silver in play" restriction.  Without it, then buying Jewelry Box provides a better improvement in the average coin in deck than Silver if bought straight for the first four - I'm fairly sure I calculated and it was four - turns.  Yes it comes with a copper, but the starting estates make that copper better than nothing in those initial buys, and given the top-decking silver it might be quite possible to get two golds within the first five turns.  Adding the "no silver in play" clause was a band-aid repair, and not a very elegant one on my part.
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Davio

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #16: Treasure Card!
« Reply #124 on: September 25, 2012, 03:45:36 am »
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Grats to the winner.

I got 4th, wow!
I don't mind ending up lower than the other coin for every VP entry which was more cute than mine.
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