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Author Topic: Idea for non-terminal drawer  (Read 1762 times)

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kn1tt3r

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Idea for non-terminal drawer
« on: September 10, 2012, 07:19:28 am »
0

Exploiter, $5 (?)

+1 Action

Each other player may discard a card.
+X cards according to the cost of the cheapest card discarded.

If no card is discarded: +2 Cards, +1 Coin



I'm not sure if this is too strong. Early game it is usually a lab or a non-terminal cutpurse, but it might become quite ugly later, especially when stacked.

Thoughts?
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Idea for non-terminal drawer
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2012, 07:37:56 am »
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I feel like this could be pretty weak in games with a decent Curser or with 3+ players. On the other hand, it could also get really really strong. It's starting to feel a little like City to me. So it could work. Are you able to playtest it?
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Schneau

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Re: Idea for non-terminal drawer
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2012, 08:18:27 am »
+3

Interesting idea! My only problem with it is the old

Player 2: Are you going to discard a card?
Player 3: Not if you do first!
Player 2: Well, I'm not, my lowest price card is worth $2.
Player 3: Do it! I have a good hand and don't want to discard a Copper.
Player 2: A Copper!? Don't be so selfish!
...
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Idea for non-terminal drawer
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 09:49:47 am »
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I feel like this could be pretty weak in games with a decent Curser or with 3+ players. On the other hand, it could also get really really strong. It's starting to feel a little like City to me. So it could work. Are you able to playtest it?

It's definately situational. Weaker with cursers, it might discourage copper trashing, it can be a powerhouse late game.

I've not yet thought about playtesting, it's just an idea without aspiration of realization.

Quote from: Schneau
Interesting idea! My only problem with it is the old

Player 2: Are you going to discard a card?
Player 3: Not if you do first!
Player 2: Well, I'm not, my lowest price card is worth $2.
Player 3: Do it! I have a good hand and don't want to discard a Copper.
Player 2: A Copper!? Don't be so selfish!
...

You're right, that's a problem. What about "If any player didn't discard a card..."?
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Kirian

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Re: Idea for non-terminal drawer
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 03:37:51 pm »
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Perhaps make it a forced reveal instead of a discard, make it a cantrip, and drop the price.  "All players reveal a card at the same time" or something like.  This removes the attack portion, and it's very weak in the early game or with a Curser, but gets stronger later in the game.

Or make it an attack, make the discard mandatory--"each other player with more than four card in hand discards a card"--and only give +1 card for the "no discard" portion.
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razorborne

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Re: Idea for non-terminal drawer
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 03:50:03 pm »
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the problem I have is that there's so little incentive to discard anything but a copper or a curse. at its best (without opponents trying to help you) it is a lab. in any games without poor house or shelters there is nothing that costs 1. since the average value of a card is generally going to be more than $1 pretty quickly, you pretty much never want to discard a $3 just to stop the +$1, especially since you lose your $3. so maybe you drop an estate to cost them $1. I feel like it'd be more interesting if the spectrum of available discard options was a little wider. maybe take out the drawing part and just make it no draws if a player discarded since, in 90% of cases, that's what will happen anyway. you could then up the power by shifting the $1 into the main part so that when it went off it was a copper-lab and when it didn't it was a copper. or you could even up the thing to "if any player didn't discard, +2 cards" to make it better in multiplayer. that way it opens up more interaction (heck, I could discard a $7 to it if I get stuck with two terminals and want to play the other) and it makes all other players act together, which is neat. although the politics involved in being third-seat and promising you'll discard just to pass up on it when the other players do are annoying. you could do a complicated vote-and-reveal system if you wanted, but that's lame.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Idea for non-terminal drawer
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2012, 04:18:01 pm »
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I discard a Vineyard; the other guy discards an Estate. How many cards do you draw?
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Archetype

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Re: Idea for non-terminal drawer
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2012, 06:56:53 pm »
+1

I discard a Vineyard; the other guy discards an Estate. How many cards do you draw?

Ive seen you give this same answer to so many fan cards dealing with card costs. :P

The answer is probably the same, cost in coins, ignore Potions.
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rinkworks

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Re: Idea for non-terminal drawer
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 04:11:43 pm »
+1

I discard a Vineyard; the other guy discards an Estate. How many cards do you draw?

Ive seen you give this same answer to so many fan cards dealing with card costs. :P

The answer is probably the same, cost in coins, ignore Potions.

That's how I'd resolve it too, but the wording of this card doesn't lead to that conclusion.  The Alchemy rules specifically state that (for example) $2 is neither more nor less than $P.  That definition is important for cards like Remodel and so on that require you to know what set of cards are "less than" some arbitrary cost.  Apply the Alchemy rules to this card, and you cannot produce an answer to the question of whether Estate or Vineyard is "cheaper."

The way you'd fix the card would be to say, explicitly, "cost in coins" (which is what Bishop, Trader, and Forge do).
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 11:37:31 am by rinkworks »
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Archetype

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Re: Idea for non-terminal drawer
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2012, 07:10:59 pm »
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I discard a Vineyard; the other guy discards an Estate. How many cards do you draw?

Ive seen you give this same answer to so many fan cards dealing with card costs. :P

The answer is probably the same, cost in coins, ignore Potions.

That's how I'd resolve it too, but the wording of this card doesn't lead to that conclusion.  The Alchemy rules specifically state that (for example) $2 is neither more or less than $P.  That definition is important for cards like Remodel and so on that require you to know what set of cards are "less than" some arbitrary cost.  Apply the Alchemy rules to this card, and you cannot produce an answer to the question of whether Estate or Vineyard is "cheaper."

The way you'd fix the card would be to say, explicitly, "cost in coins" (which is what Bishop, Trader, and Forge do).

Yeah, like you said, "adding cost in coins" should remove Potion confusion.

About the card itself:

These kind of "cheapest" or "lowest" cards are difficult to make because early game they are very weak/powerful and in the end game they are the opposite of what they originally were. The strength of the card also varies on the number of players.

I'd throw in a "Everyone draws a card" to the beginning of the discard thingamajig. And change the bonus to: +1 Cards, +1$ and make it a cantrip.

Gives it a powerful no discard bonus, and everyone else has the option to shut down your engine, but then again your helping them out with the card draw

Maybe add a little blurb at the bottom saying "While this card is in play, at the end of your buy phase, if no player discarded a card to this, everyone else discards down to 5 cards in their hand".

That might need a re-wording, but you get what I mean. It also adds some mystery "Is this the last one he'll play? Do I risk a card? If I don't I'll lose all the cards I've drawn..."

Actually, I have an idea that is a spinoff of this card:

Gambler
Cost: 5
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Every other player draws a card. They may discard a card from their hand.
If no one does, +1 Card, +1$
                                           
While this card is in play, at the end of your buy phase, if no player discarded a card to this, everyone else discards down to 5 cards in their hand.


The named seemed appropriate for this card. It's a gamble for you, if they discard a card or not, and it's a gamble for them, If they don't discard a card or not.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Idea for non-terminal drawer
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 05:18:20 am »
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So why would anyone ever refuse to discard with this version? It actually helps your opponent to filter and cycle without any penalty.

I agree that my card has some flaws (needs some expression like "in coins" and it's possibly necessary to make it somehow less swingy with more incentive to discard), but this Gambler spin-off just doesn't work.
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Archetype

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Re: Idea for non-terminal drawer
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2012, 09:08:35 am »
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So why would anyone ever refuse to discard with this version? It actually helps your opponent to filter and cycle without any penalty.

I agree that my card has some flaws (needs some expression like "in coins" and it's possibly necessary to make it somehow less swingy with more incentive to discard), but this Gambler spin-off just doesn't work.

Hmm yeah, you right. It was just a random idea, but I think your card's concept can be done, I just don't know how.
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One Armed Man

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Re: Idea for non-terminal drawer
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2012, 10:11:17 am »
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We have seen a lot of these "Each opponent may discard" fan cards. They are too political. "Each opponent may reveal" is easier because it is at very low cost to them. See Tournament.
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