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Author Topic: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11  (Read 7650 times)

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Geronimoo

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- Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« on: September 09, 2012, 05:41:08 am »
+19

Stef has $2 turn 3 but decides he doesn't need Herbalist (or not yet anyway), then turn 14 when his engine is running he buys one with $11. I lol'd. Then he won.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201209/09/game-20120909-020624-98879777.html
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Robz888

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2012, 12:37:15 pm »
+2

Stef has $2 turn 3 but decides he doesn't need Herbalist (or not yet anyway), then turn 14 when his engine is running he buys one with $11. I lol'd. Then he won.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201209/09/game-20120909-020624-98879777.html

This is such a quintessential Stef moment.
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jonts26

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2012, 02:27:44 pm »
+4

I think this is the kind of thing that separates -Stef- from me. I probably would have tried to build a similar engine and realized I would want a +buy in there eventually and bought the herbalist turn 3. But the extra unique terminal in the deck would have slowed down the HP stack and cursing and the +buy wasn't really needed until mid game. So the lost turn could very well be worth the faster ramp up. Maybe it doesn't make a huge difference in win percentage, but to get to the top, you need to find an extra few percentage points everywhere you can.
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rod-

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2012, 02:44:29 pm »
0

Looking at the actual game, though, it's less obvious that it was a necessary play at that point in the game: stef needs to get *all* 7 coppers (in a hunting party engine) to get a double-province turn, and he would have been ahead 3-1 with 8 hunting parties if he'd just bought provinces.  (Assuming that 8 HPs is still effective enough at cycling your deck every turn, which seems safe given that 6 HPs is usually plenty)

Overbuilding an engine so it doesn't stall is fine when your opponent's deck isn't coming together at all, and arguably the correct course, but we're talking about converting a game that's essentially already won into a game that's essentially already won, but might have a 1/200 chance of going horribly wrong instead of a 1/100 chance.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 02:45:46 pm by rod- »
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jonts26

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2012, 02:58:37 pm »
+1

You don't need to double province right away. Province + Conspirator. Then double province is much easier. 
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Davio

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2012, 02:59:33 pm »
0

Why didn't you build a similar engine, Gero?

Aside from the fact that there's no trashing, I would say an engine is still pretty doable here.
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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2012, 03:48:44 pm »
0

I think this is the kind of thing that separates -Stef- from me. I probably would have tried to build a similar engine and realized I would want a +buy in there eventually and bought the herbalist turn 3. But the extra unique terminal in the deck would have slowed down the HP stack and cursing and the +buy wasn't really needed until mid game. So the lost turn could very well be worth the faster ramp up. Maybe it doesn't make a huge difference in win percentage, but to get to the top, you need to find an extra few percentage points everywhere you can.
So you think not buying the herbalist on turn 3 was not a mistake? Interesting!
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jonts26

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2012, 04:02:25 pm »
0

I think this is the kind of thing that separates -Stef- from me. I probably would have tried to build a similar engine and realized I would want a +buy in there eventually and bought the herbalist turn 3. But the extra unique terminal in the deck would have slowed down the HP stack and cursing and the +buy wasn't really needed until mid game. So the lost turn could very well be worth the faster ramp up. Maybe it doesn't make a huge difference in win percentage, but to get to the top, you need to find an extra few percentage points everywhere you can.
So you think not buying the herbalist on turn 3 was not a mistake? Interesting!

I'm saying it's close, and it could very well be on the right end of the swing. Until mid-game, the herbalist only gets in the way. So is the early game risk worth the lost turn in the midgame? I'm not sure. But it could be.
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Davio

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2012, 04:04:26 pm »
+2

If you're only buying $4 or $5 cards, the Herbalist will only have an added value once you consistently reach $8+.

There's no point in having $8 and 2 Buys if you're still only buying a single HP.
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jonts26

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2012, 04:13:07 pm »
0

He may have been better off getting the herbalist on something like turn 10 instead of the conspirator. By that point, he has a decent chance of still drawing his main cards so it's less of a liability. But he only had 1 witch instead of 2 and still won the curse split. I don't think he would have done that if he bought the turn 3 herbalist.
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O

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2012, 07:09:52 pm »
0

HP-Witch will destroy doublewitch pretty handily regardless.
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ehunt

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2012, 11:07:25 pm »
+3

HP-Witch will destroy doublewitch pretty handily regardless.

Witch hunting.
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Davio

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2012, 02:12:01 am »
0

But I guess you need a Village.

Otherwise you have to play the Witch last and this will make you draw your discarded cards and cause all of your HPs to miss the reshuffle. It doesn't matter when you have 2 cards left, but still something to watch out for. HP + Drawer can be kinda awkward.
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-Stef-

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2012, 04:46:13 am »
+8

I think this is the kind of thing that separates -Stef- from me. I probably would have tried to build a similar engine and realized I would want a +buy in there eventually and bought the herbalist turn 3. But the extra unique terminal in the deck would have slowed down the HP stack and cursing and the +buy wasn't really needed until mid game. So the lost turn could very well be worth the faster ramp up. Maybe it doesn't make a huge difference in win percentage, but to get to the top, you need to find an extra few percentage points everywhere you can.
So you think not buying the herbalist on turn 3 was not a mistake? Interesting!

Buying the herbalist turn 3 would have been a serious mistake.
1) In a hunting party deck I want to minimize the number of different cards.
2) I want to play witch and get to $5, so I don't want to take village over silver too many times.
3) I don't get to $8 (hunting party-village or hunting party-silver) for a while anyway
4) Herbalist is a pretty lousy card if I can't use the buy. Worse then a copper.

All of these arguments are already mentioned by jonts26, but if you still doubt about the turn 3 herbalist I guess you underestimate the importance of mainly #1.

But I guess you need a Village.

Otherwise you have to play the Witch last and this will make you draw your discarded cards and cause all of your HPs to miss the reshuffle. It doesn't matter when you have 2 cards left, but still something to watch out for. HP + Drawer can be kinda awkward.

Good point, and quite important in HP games. This, and because I wanted to take conspirator over silver were the main reasons for the village.
It allows me to end the turn with a hunting party-reshuffle on turns 14, 16 & 17.

He may have been better off getting the herbalist on something like turn 10 instead of the conspirator. By that point, he has a decent chance of still drawing his main cards so it's less of a liability. But he only had 1 witch instead of 2 and still won the curse split. I don't think he would have done that if he bought the turn 3 herbalist.

I think buying it turn 10 is still too early. Curses aren't split yet and really all I want is curse some more and go to yet another party.

Not buying the herbalist at all probably would have worked as well here, but hey, how many chances do you get at a herbalist for $11.
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AdamH

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2012, 06:37:36 pm »
0

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/09/game-20121209-144854-2c62a128.html

I was reminded of this thread when I played this game -- herbalist for $15, though I'm sure in my case it was not the right thing...
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WanderingWinder

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2012, 07:12:30 pm »
+5

What did Stef say recently? Never buy Woodcutter with less than $8? Classic.

michaeljb

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2012, 07:42:52 pm »
+2

What did Stef say recently? Never buy Woodcutter with less than $8? Classic.

Obligatory meme: I don't always buy Woodcutter...
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ycz6

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Re: - Stef - buys Herbalist with $11
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2013, 07:42:21 pm »
0

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/19/game-20130119-163656-46d01c44.html

On my turn 15 Outpost turn, I buy Herbalist with 19+P (w/Talisman). I eventually lose, having not bought a Scrying Pool until turn 9, but I think it was the right decision.

Turn 13 probably would've been a better time to get it.
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