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DsnowMan

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Re: Translations
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2012, 08:13:09 am »
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Oh, and "Urchin" = Orphelin (Orphan). Is it really a correct translation ?

Yes, one of them. Urchin originally meant hedgehog, and for a long time meant any person who looked or acted like a hedgehog. There's a long list from a couple sources: "hunchbacks, goblins, bad girls, poorly or raggedly clothed youngster, street children, elves or fairies with a prickly appearance"
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Kuildeous

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Re: Translations
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2012, 08:57:09 am »
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Maquignons (Horse Traders): I find it hilarious that the French have a distinct, non-compound word for "Horse Dealer."  Apparently it can also mean a shady dealer.  This inspired me to look up a reason for this, and came across Wikipedia (of course): "Due to the difficulties in evaluating the merits of a horse offered for sale, the selling of horses offered great opportunities for dishonesty. It was expected that horse sellers would capitalize on these opportunities and so those who dealt in horses gained a reputation for shady business practices."  And "Reflecting this attitude, the term horse trading was widely adopted as a way to describe what might be seen as unethical business practices in a more positive light."  I think this is where we get the phrase "I've got to see a man about a horse."

Sounds like this term could have also been used for Swindler or Mountebank.
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werothegreat

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Re: Translations
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2012, 09:58:49 am »
+1

Maquignons (Horse Traders): I find it hilarious that the French have a distinct, non-compound word for "Horse Dealer."  Apparently it can also mean a shady dealer.  This inspired me to look up a reason for this, and came across Wikipedia (of course): "Due to the difficulties in evaluating the merits of a horse offered for sale, the selling of horses offered great opportunities for dishonesty. It was expected that horse sellers would capitalize on these opportunities and so those who dealt in horses gained a reputation for shady business practices."  And "Reflecting this attitude, the term horse trading was widely adopted as a way to describe what might be seen as unethical business practices in a more positive light."  I think this is where we get the phrase "I've got to see a man about a horse."

Sounds like this term could have also been used for Swindler or Mountebank.

I'm glad they saved it for the card actually called "Horse Traders."
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loppo

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Re: Translations
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2012, 10:29:48 am »
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I think most translations are quite reasonable. I couldn't have come up with a better translation for IGG than Blutzoll, and the Loan-Lohn thing was done knowing that it's wrong, but it fit the picture, and "Kredit" feels far too modern to put on a Dominion card.

What annoys me most I think is the translation of Salvager. I mean, really? Müllverwerter??? Ok, Salvager CAN mean something like that, but this feels so wrong looking at the picture...

My translation for IGG would be "Schwarzgeld" or "Judaslohn" or "unrecht' Gut". Blutzoll is just wrong.

I can't think of a German word for "Familiar", didn't know before long that there is a word for "animal companion". My stab at Familiar would have been "Gefährte".

"Lohn" fits the picture, I have no qualms with that.

What I like about the German version is that all upgrading-type cards (expressed in verbs in English) end in "-bau". Wonder how long they'll keep that up. I think they will bend in on "Procession", but Überbau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_and_superstructure) would be a nice, if liberal, translation. A real blunder is the Dutch translation to "Remake", which is something like "Version 2.0". It should obviously have been translated with a verb.

A more literal translation to "JoaT" would be "Hans Dampf in allen Gassen" (Hans Steam in all alleys), "Lebenskünstler" (bohemien, bon vivant) fits the picture though.

"Minion" would have been better translated with "Günstling" or "Hofschranze". "Lakai" is closer to "Lackey" in meaning.

Oh yes, and "Dark Ages" should have been "Finstre Zeiten" (bracing for a cease and decist by Friedemann Friese) or "Harte Zeiten" ("hard times").

"Kerkermeister" does its job with the picture and gives a good cue to an old Erste Allgemeine Verunsicherung song.


I really love your "Kerkermeister" reference to the relative unknown song of EAV dating back to 1986. such a great text.

Jack of all trades could also be translated as "Tausendsassa". The guys that love Handelsposten should like this word to.

"Judaslohn" is just a great translation of ill-gotten-gains. Very well fitting. I would have loved to see this on the actual cardboard.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 10:31:29 am by loppo »
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hsiale

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Re: Translations
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2012, 01:54:44 pm »
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The biggest problem of Polish translation of Dominion is that only Base, Intrigue and Cornucopia were done. At some point I'll probably have to translate the other cards, as my girlfriend liked the game, but doesn't speak English well, so with no translation there's no much room to expand our games beyond Base and Intrigue I bought recently. Jack of All Trades will definitely be hard to do. And Duchess, due to the way Duchy and Duke got translated - there's no word fitting to Duchess which would go in line with the two previous translations.

Looking through the cards from other expansions, I have one question about English "translation" of the game. Does anyone know why is Hamlet called Hamlet? I can't see the name having anything in common with card text, the picture also doesn't help.
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Re: Translations
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2012, 02:00:32 pm »
+1

The biggest problem of Polish translation of Dominion is that only Base, Intrigue and Cornucopia were done. At some point I'll probably have to translate the other cards, as my girlfriend liked the game, but doesn't speak English well, so with no translation there's no much room to expand our games beyond Base and Intrigue I bought recently. Jack of All Trades will definitely be hard to do. And Duchess, due to the way Duchy and Duke got translated - there's no word fitting to Duchess which would go in line with the two previous translations.

Looking through the cards from other expansions, I have one question about English "translation" of the game. Does anyone know why is Hamlet called Hamlet? I can't see the name having anything in common with card text, the picture also doesn't help.

A Hamlet is a small Village.  How did you translate Duke and Duchy?
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Re: Translations
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2012, 02:22:51 pm »
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Thanks, you just learned me a new English word :) The only thing that came to my mind when I read Hamlet was the Shakespeare's play. Now it makes sense.

Duchy and Duke are in Polish translation "Powiat" and "Starosta". Powiat is the name of the middle step of administrative division of Poland and the name was used since XIVth century. Starosta was its head, responsible for fiscal duties, courts etc. So the names are quite good. But if you want to translate Duchess to be in line with this, you should use "Starościna", but the word is an extreme archaism. If I was to translate Duchy and Duke (and knew I have Duchess coming a bit later), I would go for Hrabstwo, Hrabia, Hrabina - even though it's rather County, Count and Countess - we never had counts in Poland, but all three words are still alive in Polish language.
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werothegreat

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Re: Translations
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2012, 02:29:18 pm »
+2

Thanks, you just learned me a new English word :) The only thing that came to my mind when I read Hamlet was the Shakespeare's play. Now it makes sense.

Duchy and Duke are in Polish translation "Powiat" and "Starosta". Powiat is the name of the middle step of administrative division of Poland and the name was used since XIVth century. Starosta was its head, responsible for fiscal duties, courts etc. So the names are quite good. But if you want to translate Duchess to be in line with this, you should use "Starościna", but the word is an extreme archaism. If I was to translate Duchy and Duke (and knew I have Duchess coming a bit later), I would go for Hrabstwo, Hrabia, Hrabina - even though it's rather County, Count and Countess - we never had counts in Poland, but all three words are still alive in Polish language.

Archaisms are fine - it's meant to be from an archaic period anyway.
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Re: Translations
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2012, 05:23:59 pm »
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Thanks, you just learned me a new English word :) The only thing that came to my mind when I read Hamlet was the Shakespeare's play. Now it makes sense.

Duchy and Duke are in Polish translation "Powiat" and "Starosta". Powiat is the name of the middle step of administrative division of Poland and the name was used since XIVth century. Starosta was its head, responsible for fiscal duties, courts etc. So the names are quite good. But if you want to translate Duchess to be in line with this, you should use "Starościna", but the word is an extreme archaism. If I was to translate Duchy and Duke (and knew I have Duchess coming a bit later), I would go for Hrabstwo, Hrabia, Hrabina - even though it's rather County, Count and Countess - we never had counts in Poland, but all three words are still alive in Polish language.

Archaisms are fine - it's meant to be from an archaic period anyway.
And I just learned a new English word.
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ConMan

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Re: Translations
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2012, 05:26:59 pm »
+2

Fou (Madman): Man, but these French are literal!
I can just imagine the crazy guy wandering through the woods. Really, I pity le Fou.

Quote
Escroc (Swindler): Just a fun word to say!
Is this related to the English word Escrow? Because now I'm worried that I'm asking Swindlers to hold onto my money. (And Google tells me that no, they're false cognates, although I can't find anything saying that they don't have the same origins.)
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Re: Translations
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2012, 04:20:22 am »
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Thanks, you just learned me a new English word :) The only thing that came to my mind when I read Hamlet was the Shakespeare's play. Now it makes sense.

Duchy and Duke are in Polish translation "Powiat" and "Starosta". Powiat is the name of the middle step of administrative division of Poland and the name was used since XIVth century. Starosta was its head, responsible for fiscal duties, courts etc. So the names are quite good. But if you want to translate Duchess to be in line with this, you should use "Starościna", but the word is an extreme archaism. If I was to translate Duchy and Duke (and knew I have Duchess coming a bit later), I would go for Hrabstwo, Hrabia, Hrabina - even though it's rather County, Count and Countess - we never had counts in Poland, but all three words are still alive in Polish language.

Starosta sounds like "aged man" to my oblivious-to-Polish ears. There's an obvious guess as to why the female version isn't quite as popular.
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ipofanes

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Re: Translations
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2012, 04:28:10 am »
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I really love your "Kerkermeister" reference to the relative unknown song of EAV dating back to 1986. such a great text.

Definitely the best song from one of the few EAV records gaining popularity in Germany. Never hummed to yourself "I'm sitting on a bunk, training a roley-poley" while unleashing your chain of Kerkermeisters?


Quote
Jack of all trades could also be translated as "Tausendsassa". The guys that love Handelsposten should like this word to.

"Judaslohn" is just a great translation of ill-gotten-gains. Very well fitting. I would have loved to see this on the actual cardboard.

"Tausendsassa" is great. While there are clerical figures on Dominion cards, and Bishop is specifically Christian, my feel is that directly biblical allusions wouldn't fly. So, yes, "Judaslohn" is fitting as a translation, but I would have been surprised to see this word on a Dominion card.
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Re: Translations
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2012, 04:56:10 pm »
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If I was to translate Duchy and Duke (and knew I have Duchess coming a bit later), I would go for Hrabstwo, Hrabia, Hrabina - even though it's rather County, Count and Countess - we never had counts in Poland, but all three words are still alive in Polish language.

But we do have a Count in Dark Ages. So you would need a new word for this.
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hsiale

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Re: Translations
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2012, 05:14:16 pm »
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But we do have a Count in Dark Ages. So you would need a new word for this.
Uh oh, just found this out from Count/Duke combo thread. Will have to think about this.
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Re: Translations
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2012, 12:05:23 am »
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So uh... how do you translate Feodum? Since it's not a word in English, it must be difficult.

I suppose you could keep the Latin word in all the translations, and everyone will be as mystified in other languages as us English-speakers were  :P. One convoluted option would be translate it into the local old-school language, e.g. Old Church Slavonic for Eastern European languages.
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werothegreat

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Re: Translations
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2012, 12:47:57 am »
+1

So uh... how do you translate Feodum? Since it's not a word in English, it must be difficult.

I suppose you could keep the Latin word in all the translations, and everyone will be as mystified in other languages as us English-speakers were  :P. One convoluted option would be translate it into the local old-school language, e.g. Old Church Slavonic for Eastern European languages.

French just calls it "Fief."
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Re: Translations
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2012, 02:14:33 am »
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So uh... how do you translate Feodum? Since it's not a word in English, it must be difficult.

I suppose you could keep the Latin word in all the translations, and everyone will be as mystified in other languages as us English-speakers were  :P. One convoluted option would be translate it into the local old-school language, e.g. Old Church Slavonic for Eastern European languages.

in german it is "Lehen", which is a very old word. I guess in cultures that had a feudal system a couple of centuries ago, there is a word for it ("Fief", "Lehen",...)cultures without a former feudal system might it find difficult.
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Re: Translations
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2012, 03:08:17 am »
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I'd prefer "Lehnsgut" which is the actual piece of land, not the title. The German translation of "Estate" also refers rather to the physical object than the title.
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PitzerMike

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Re: Translations
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2012, 04:27:37 am »
+1

I would like to defend some of the German translations that have been criticized because I think that they capture the essence of the cards better than the English original. These are mainly:

Ill Gotten Gains -> Blutzoll: It fits perfectly with the card's mechanic that you gain dirty/bloody money and it takes a toll on your opponents (curse). I definitely like it alot more than "Schwarzgeld" although that might be the more literal translation. I would be ok with "Judaslohn" but it's not really doable for obvious reasons.

Forge -> Kunstschmiede: It captures the essence of the card perfectly. It really is a delicate art to put together all the right "ingredients" (low cost cards), add up their cost and forge something better out of them. And if you make one small error it all goes to waste. Also the girl in the art looks like she's either putting a gem in the sword handle or maybe engraving some sort of text in the sword which for me fits very well.

Hunting Party -> Treibjagd: This hasn't been mentioned yet i think, but the literal translation would have been "Jagdgesellschaft". I like "Treibjagd" much more because again it fits with the card's mechanic as the digging for a card that you don't have in hand feels like a chase.


Here are some that I don't like very much:

Farmland -> Fruchtbares Land: Should have been "Ackerland" in my opinion.

Walled Village -> Carcassonne: Yeah, I get that this is the promo for Carcassonne, but still it should have been "Fort" or something.

Familiar -> Vertrauter: This is the literal translation but it really makes no sense that a "Vertrauter" would be someone bad who hands out curses. I'm at a loss regarding a better translation though. From the image he looks like an undead/ghost or something.

Venture -> Abenteuer: Although it is a possible literal translation this is really missing any resemblance to the intended meaning of "risky investment". Translated back to English it would be "adventure" which quite obviously is inappropriate. Something along the lines of "Wagnis" or "Spekulation" might be better, but I'm still not really happy with those.


Also I agree with ipofanes on "Lehnsgut". I really hope they used that. Well, I'll find out in a few hours when I unwrap my Dark Ages box.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 04:53:11 am by PitzerMike »
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ipofanes

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Re: Translations
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2012, 07:29:36 am »
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I would like to defend some of the German translations that have been criticized because I think that they capture the essence of the cards better than the English original. These are mainly:

Ill Gotten Gains -> Blutzoll: It fits perfectly with the card's mechanic that you gain dirty/bloody money and it takes a toll on your opponents (curse). I definitely like it alot more than "Schwarzgeld" although that might be the more literal translation. I would be ok with "Judaslohn" but it's not really doable for obvious reasons.
I can see your point here. "Schwarzgeld" sounds too much like a modern word. But then so does "Trickser".


Quote
Forge -> Kunstschmiede: It captures the essence of the card perfectly. It really is a delicate art to put together all the right "ingredients" (low cost cards), add up their cost and forge something better out of them. And if you make one small error it all goes to waste. Also the girl in the art looks like she's either putting a gem in the sword handle or maybe engraving some sort of text in the sword which for me fits very well.
I'm definitely with you here. Using the Forge takes some sense of precision and attention to details (like "have I played a Highway before?  ;D).


Quote
Hunting Party -> Treibjagd: This hasn't been mentioned yet i think, but the literal translation would have been "Jagdgesellschaft". I like "Treibjagd" much more because again it fits with the card's mechanic as the digging for a card that you don't have in hand feels like a chase.
Yes, I was glad when I read that German translation.

Quote
Here are some that I don't like very much:

Venture -> Abenteuer: Although it is a possible literal translation this is really missing any resemblance to the intended meaning of "risky investment". Translated back to English it would be "adventure" which quite obviously is inappropriate. Something along the lines of "Wagnis" or "Spekulation" might be better, but I'm still not really happy with those.
Yes, but it fits the picture where the bored King is about to receive an engaging (or not) story.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 07:31:58 am by ipofanes »
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PitzerMike

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Re: Translations
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2012, 08:16:07 am »
0

Quote
Venture -> Abenteuer: Although it is a possible literal translation this is really missing any resemblance to the intended meaning of "risky investment". Translated back to English it would be "adventure" which quite obviously is inappropriate. Something along the lines of "Wagnis" or "Spekulation" might be better, but I'm still not really happy with those.
Yes, but it fits the picture where the bored King is about to receive an engaging (or not) story.

Well, maybe I misinterpreted the card, and the intended meaning is indeed adventure. I've never been quite sure about the card art. But since ist's a treasure card I've always been assuming it was venture in the sense of "risky investment". Like trading in stocks but something more medieval - maybe betting money on a tournament contender. :)

Yeah I also don't like "Trickser" like you mentioned.

Overall I'm quite happy with the German translation (ie I've seen much worse).

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Re: Translations
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2012, 09:02:38 am »
+1

A Familiar, in folklore, is a magic-user's (typically a witch's) animal companion.  This is more than just a pet - the witch is supposed to be able to communicate with the familiar, and send it off to do stuff.  If you've ever seen Bedknobs and Broomsticks, the cat is supposed to be a familiar, but since Eglantine fails at formal witchery, the cat just ends up being a lazy bum.  How would you translate "magic-user's animal companion" into German?
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Re: Translations
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2012, 09:07:44 am »
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A Familiar, in folklore, is a magic-user's (typically a witch's) animal companion.  This is more than just a pet - the witch is supposed to be able to communicate with the familiar, and send it off to do stuff.  If you've ever seen Bedknobs and Broomsticks, the cat is supposed to be a familiar, but since Eglantine fails at formal witchery, the cat just ends up being a lazy bum.  How would you translate "magic-user's animal companion" into German?
And would the German word be different if it had to include that notion of "ally/helper" in the sense of "team mate"?
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Re: Translations
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2012, 09:17:01 am »
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There's no translation for that without double meaning. But Familiar has double meaning too, so "Vertrauter" isn't that bad in my opinion.
Alternatives would be "Begleiter/Gefährte" (Companion/Associate) or more freely translated "Knecht" (Servant/Minion). I wouldn't put "Tier" (Animal) in the title.
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Re: Translations
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2012, 09:39:02 am »
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Oh, I see. Well in the context of shamanism it could be "Tiergeist" which means animal spirit/ghost. (like what the Maya believed in)
If we're talking an actual living animal companion, then what Qvist said. "Tierischer Begleiter" could work. But on the art it looks more like a ghost.
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