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[Loschmidt]

Now we've had a bit of a chance to play with them, lets list the effects that Shelters have on play and stategy. I think we can all agree they're subtle, but important nonetheless.

I'll start off with some of the more obvious ones.

You can have slightly more terminals than you otherwise would.

Thanks to necropolis of course. This is less important than I first thought it would be, but I've still seen it have a significant effect on people decks. A friend of mine built a cantrip engine that was able to play two terminals to cap it off using necropolis. Never needing to stop to buy a village is helpful. One way to think about necropolis is as a shanty town with the opportunity cost removed.

You get one free green buy.

From a deck quality perspective of course. This thread has convinced me that the optimal play is to wait to trash your hovel until you were greening anyway.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4508.0

Previously I’d been trashing it for an early estate if I was going to pass on a $2 anyway. Silly me.

Heavy trashing doesn’t put you at a 3 point disadvantage.

Classically if Alberto chapels into an engine and Britt goes for a BM+ strategy with no trashing and it’s a close game, Britt has the edge. If the provinces are split Alberto needs a Duchy to break even. This means Britt can take the penultimate province without worry. However with shelters early heavy trashing has no effect on your score, just on your deck quality.

This is something I only just realised, and I think is more interesting than the first two.

Thoughts?

[eHalcyon]

You missed some obvious effects:

- Ambassador is worse
- Remake, Upgrade and Develop are worse
- Hunting Party is worse
- Fairgrounds is better
- Menagerie is better
- HoP is a smidgen better, because Necropolis is one more card already in your deck that you can play to boost it

[Loschmidt]

You missed some obvious effects:

- Ambassador is worse
- Remake, Upgrade and Develop are worse
- Hunting Party is worse
- Fairgrounds is better
- Menagerie is better
- HoP is a smidgen better, because Necropolis is one more card already in your deck that you can play to boost it

Of course, silly me. I got distracted. thinking about the 3 point trashing difference. Here's some more:

-Baron is worse
-Crossroad isn't exactly worse, but maybe you shouldn't buy it as early as you normally do
-Scout (poor scout, he cops a beating on these forums) is, dare I say it, worse

[Loschmidt]

You missed some obvious effects:
- Remake, Upgrade and Develop are worse

Develop isn't strictly worse actually. It just becomes more situational.

I was playing a Gardens game with Develop and Beggar on the board. Develop got me started really quickly turning those shelters into Coppers and Beggars.

[eHalcyon]

You missed some obvious effects:
- Remake, Upgrade and Develop are worse

Develop isn't strictly worse actually. It just becomes more situational.

I was playing a Gardens game with Develop and Beggar on the board. Develop got me started really quickly turning those shelters into Coppers and Beggars.

Well none of them are strictly worse.  Maybe you really want to Remake your Shelters into FG, for example.

[ycz6]

Previously I’d been trashing it for an early estate if I was going to pass on a $2 anyway. Silly me.

Wait, why is this silly?

[anlin_wang]

When you start greening, you have one less green card that would otherwise clog your deck.

[Loschmidt]

Previously I’d been trashing it for an early estate if I was going to pass on a $2 anyway. Silly me.

Wait, why is this silly?

Read the thread I linked to. They go into it in depth. Basically going an early Hovel --> Estate, does your deck no harm and adds 1VP, but then your first Province dilutes your deck and makes it harder to get your 2nd, 3rd, etc. If you wait and then go Hovel --> Province, your deck is still in the same shape it was except you have +6VP. You should have no trouble getting your 2nd Province. You're sacrificing 1VP for deck quality in the late game. Its quite subtle and if you think it is going to be a really close low-scoring game (due to cursing etc), or that the game will end on piles then the early Estate might be worth it.

[Kirian]

Ironmonger, despite being in DA, is ever so slightly worse with Shelters than with Estates.

[werothegreat]

Ironmonger, despite being in DA, is ever so slightly worse with Shelters than with Estates.

I've noticed that.  It bothers me every time Ironmonger finds the Hovel.  Speaking of which, it makes alt VP strategies that much easier to go for.  You think less of an early Gardens buy, and an early Great Hall buy would actually improve your deck.

[jomini]

A few other shots:
Necro makes limited draw (library, jack, watchtower) a bit better. You come have ~1/3 rd shot of colliding for an extra card to draw on the first shuffle. Given that this will often be the edge for a 5 or 6 coin hand vs a 4 or 5, this is small, but significant.

Overgrown estates makes uniform trashers (e.g. altar, trade route, trading post, masq, jack, steward) better. Cards that scale their benefits to trashed card cost are a bit worse. I might except bishop from that if only because it is a maximum of 3 points and all three shelters have the potential to get you to golden deck or other heavy bishop action sooner (necro let's you run double trashers for longer, hovel can be free trashed to get to golden deck a turn sooner, and Oge can give you a bit more buying power when you trash it) though the opponent's Oge means you do give him a free one-off lab at some point.

Peddler becomes more viable sooner. Necro allows you to substitute +buy for a village early on and you can do things like open Nomad Camp, Hamlet, Watchtower to start pounding out mass peddlers on T3 or 4.

Jester is worse because you have three cards that don't give curses, bloat, or allow you to gain anything.

Rebuild gets better with shelters - you can be sure to hit a duchy every time after the Oge is gone. Yeah, you can't turn estates into duchies, but it seems like duchies aren't hard to come buy; worst case is you just buy an estate to kick things off.

Scrying pool is slightly stronger thanks to having one fewer non-action in the deck. Conversely B-crat, transmute, rabble, fortune teller, silk road and the aforementioned scout all get worse because there are targets for them.

Governor is undecided to me. The remodel/upgrade choice gets a little weird. Your opponent can't turn estates into silvers off your remodels; however they can turn shelters into estates to break parity. You can still turn them into silvers, but you are almost always better off gaining golds. For a governor rush, I'm not sure but I think there might be more useful 2's (particularly with necro to give you a bit more terminal flexibility) so remodeling gold -> province is a bit less awesome (though still awesome).

[eHalcyon]

Jester is worse because you have three cards that don't give curses, bloat, or allow you to gain anything.

Scrying pool is slightly stronger thanks to having one fewer non-action in the deck. Conversely B-crat, transmute, rabble, fortune teller, silk road and the aforementioned scout all get worse because there are targets for them.

Jester still gives Curses off of OGE, doesn't it?

I think you mean that Bureaucrat, Transmute, etc. get worse because there are FEWER targets for them.  Is that true for FT?  Maybe because only having OGE to hit just increases the cycling you give to opponents.

[Kirian]

Aaaaand I think I have to drop OGE into the lingo FAQ.

[jomini]

Jester is worse because you have three cards that don't give curses, bloat, or allow you to gain anything.

Scrying pool is slightly stronger thanks to having one fewer non-action in the deck. Conversely B-crat, transmute, rabble, fortune teller, silk road and the aforementioned scout all get worse because there are targets for them.

Jester still gives Curses off of OGE, doesn't it?

I think you mean that Bureaucrat, Transmute, etc. get worse because there are FEWER targets for them.  Is that true for FT?  Maybe because only having OGE to hit just increases the cycling you give to opponents.

Yes, Jester still gives curses off Oge, still there are two freebies in the deck now, making jester lose about 10% of its sting in the early game.

Yes, also I meant fewer targets for the many cards that prefer victory cards to be around (either in your deck or your opponent's deck).

Ft has the smallest change, but with an estate game you have 3 shots to hit something and leave it on their top deck (thus slowing them down a bit and skipping good cards). This means that now there is a vastly higher chance that the opponent won't have a victory card in deck (because the Oge is in hand) - that is exceedingly rare with 3 estates kicking around. This means a free chancellor effect and in general on turns 4 & 5 you want that more often than not (because you hopefully just bought something good or your killer opening card - like sea hag - is already in the discard). It is very marginal, but I think odds are that the faster cycling helps the opponent more early game with Ft.